Harsh or Growling Vocals - Yes or No?

[ariich]

And critizising growls for not being melodic is beside the point, they are not meant to be melodic.

I hate hearing drums in music, just not melodic enough.

[Ben_Jamin]

First things first. I have to enjoy the music first. It's why I don't like the death metal bands and Thrash Metal bands like Slayer and Cannibal Corpse, there is music I enjoy from them though. Then the vocals come in. With me, I can listen to just the vocal melody and just the tone, hell I don't even understand the words they're saying sometimes, but I love the melody and end up singing the wrong words, and I'll just scat along instead.

With the low Grunt gutteral vocals, I do this a lot. A lot of growlers do not have good enunciation and for me, a good growler can enunciate well.

It's also not easy to do right. You have to use your gut, it doesn't come from the throat. It's how females can also do Grunts and growls, they know where and how to produce that sound. It's not easy doing that every night without ruining your voice.

And the good grunters can sing. It's why I consider Christian one of the best vocalists. His grunt tone and his clean vocals are damn amazing, and was the draw for me with Scar Symmetry and I wish he'd do another album with someone sometime.

I used to hate growls. I still think they're silly and unnecessary, but I can take them in small doses. For some reason, Into Eternity is the only band (on 2 of their albums) where I actually enjoy the growls and shrieks. Harsh vocals, like when Corey Taylor is shouting and actually conveying emotions, I like, unlike most growlers who sound like cookie monster or a cave troll, or Mike Portnoy trying to sound tough.

Into Eternity had some badass vocals switching from the low Grunt to High Screech vocals. It was badass, hearing him go from the low growl to the high growl and sing in between.

[Dedalus]

But yeah, my primary beef with it is I find a LOT of bands use harsh vocals because no one in the band can sing.

Yeah sure, those bands meet in the rehearsal room, they actually want to cover Queen songs, then they realise no one can really sing so they switch to growly death metal. 

The funny day we went to play "Somebody to Love" and ended up playing "Hammer Smashed Face"

 

[DoctorAction]

The guy who used to roar for The Haunted did it with some fucking passion. The screaming from 3:29 onwards gives me goosebumps. https://youtu.be/DfoGoLTY2Gs

[Ben_Jamin]

Now I could be way off base here, but I suspect there is an age correlation to this.  It won't be a hard set rule but I think on average the people who like growling will trend younger and the people who dislike them will trend older.

That's absolutely true.

You know what's funny about this...

It's the same as when guitar players started using distortion and became more heavy and metal.

The older ones didn't enjoy it while the younger ones did. 

[Kwyjibo]

And critizising growls for not being melodic is beside the point, they are not meant to be melodic.

I hate hearing drums in music, just not melodic enough.

Not kidding, some time ago I had a conversation with a friend about growls that went like this:

Him: "I don't like growls, cause they are not melodic, my music has to have melody"
Me: "Okay, what is your favorite instrument?"
Him "Drums, I could listen to only drums the whole day". 

[Kwyjibo]

I guess for my tastes, I've been hearing instrumental musicians tweak their sound since the 60s, so there's been a lot of exposure to different sounds and styles of guitar (and keys, and bass).  I've no doubt that people hearing Black Sabbath in the 70s who were accustomed to Buddy Holly were just as put off. 

There's a story about german television in the 60s which back then was even more irritably old-fashioned than it is today:

They got Santana for some kind of family game show and Santana wants to play live. At soundcheck the tv sound engineer stops Santana, because "There's something wrong with your guitar, everything is distorted." 

[pg1067]

A lot of people have mentioned Devin Townsend, but he has to have some of the most unpleasant harsh vocals I've ever heard.

The only thing I know about that guy is that, in the mid-90s, he completely ruined one of the best Rush songs (and it isn't even growly shit) (of course, 75% of that album sucked for lots of different reasons):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw1KTC9M6LQ

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

The guy who used to roar for The Haunted did it with some fucking passion. The screaming from 3:29 onwards gives me goosebumps. https://youtu.be/DfoGoLTY2Gs

The Haunted! Reminds me of when Jens cleaned his pipes: https://youtu.be/mH4T3Zq1eQQ?t=433

[Lonk]

For me, the first band that got me into that kind of vocals was All That Remains. Philip Labonte has both, good singing voice and growls, and he is one of the very few that I seen, that is able to sound good live while doing harsh vocals. I was introduced to them because of the guitars (RIP Oli), but the vocals worked so well with the music 

[Ben_Jamin]

I guess for my tastes, I've been hearing instrumental musicians tweak their sound since the 60s, so there's been a lot of exposure to different sounds and styles of guitar (and keys, and bass).  I've no doubt that people hearing Black Sabbath in the 70s who were accustomed to Buddy Holly were just as put off. 

There's a story about german television in the 60s which back then was even more irritably old-fashioned than it is today:

They got Santana for some kind of family game show and Santana wants to play live. At soundcheck the tv sound engineer stops Santana, because "There's something wrong with your guitar, everything is distorted." 

How else were they to know it was Santanas tone choice. They had never heard of using distortion as an effect. Distortion was known as a bad audio issue, which is that the audio peaks and distorts. It's why distortion sounds best when played loud.

[bobzor]

Well, being a huge consumer of extreme metal in general, I obviously like harsh vocals / screams. But is has to fit the music. I will have none of that in bands like Priest/Maiden/DT but I think it fits the music in for example death metal. Tomb of the Mutilated by Cannibal Corpse is a fine example of extremely brutal vocals that fit the music very well.

[PixelDream]

The first really harsh vocals I liked were probably something like Fear Factory / Slipknot / Dimmu Borgir, but growling took me a while to get.

First time I started to enjoy growling vocals was when I was discovering Opeth through their album Deliverance. I thought they were quite off-putting at first, but the album kept me hooked because of the sporadic acoustic/clean sections. After a while, I started to realize that the growled vocals were there to give the music that dark/wintery/foresty feel (at least, that's what I'm feeling when listening to a lot of their music). To me, when Opeth does them at least, it sounds like the deep voice of the earth down below / the forest / whatever. I'm almost never hearing it as 'someone's voice'.

Funnily enough, Opeth's growled vocals are the only growls I truly love. I can like others, tolerate how they sound, but I think Mikael Akerfeldt is really one of the best.

[Kotowboy]

Bands who have harsh vocals which I enjoy -

Trivium. Matt's voice is so much better now than on Ascendancy. His Ascendancy screams were too shrill for me. In Waves in particular is a huge improvement.

Mastodon - Troy's pitched growls are amazing and Bill can really growl too . Brent I can take or leave but his cleans are good ( studio anyway )...

Slipknot - I love Corey's harsh voice and his is probably the best overall. It's aggressive as fuck but he can still pitch and you can understand what the lyrics are.

Plus Corey is an amazing clean singer too.

[HOF]

I will say, I generally don’t listen to music that is heavy enough to contain these type of extreme vocals, so it’s not just the vocals that are a turn off but that type of metal in general really does nothing for me. But I’m even less likely to stick with something heavy if the vocals are all Cookie Monster.

[425]

And critizising growls for not being melodic is beside the point, they are not meant to be melodic.

I hate hearing drums in music, just not melodic enough.

Sure, but I can say that melody is important to me and I'm not interested in music that doesn't have a lot of melody or has less melody in certain aspects. Like, I would not want to listen to an album that was all drums, or an album where the drums were the lead instrument and all the other instruments just rhythmically followed the drums with little to no melody. But not liking those albums wouldn't mean I don't like drums. I like drums when they are a complement to other instruments. I don't like them when they play an outsized role to the detriment of other elements, like melody.

[jingle.boy]

And critizising growls for not being melodic is beside the point, they are not meant to be melodic.

I hate hearing drums in music, just not melodic enough.

Not kidding, some time ago I had a conversation with a friend about growls that went like this:

Him: "I don't like growls, cause they are not melodic, my music has to have melody"
Me: "Okay, what is your favorite instrument?"
Him "Drums, I could listen to only drums the whole day". 

Ironically, drums aren't meant to be melodic... they're rhythmic, no?   

But yeah... the "only drums the whole day" comment is chalk full of irony itself.

[DoctorAction]

The guy who used to roar for The Haunted did it with some fucking passion. The screaming from 3:29 onwards gives me goosebumps. https://youtu.be/DfoGoLTY2Gs

The Haunted! Reminds me of when Jens cleaned his pipes: https://youtu.be/mH4T3Zq1eQQ?t=433

That's fantastic.

[Lowdz]

Now I could be way off base here, but I suspect there is an age correlation to this.  It won't be a hard set rule but I think on average the people who like growling will trend younger and the people who dislike them will trend older.

That's absolutely true.

You know what's funny about this...

It's the same as when guitar players started using distortion and became more heavy and metal.

The older ones didn't enjoy it while the younger ones did. 

When I was a teenager I hated thrash vocals. I have mellowed my view on them as I got older.
I accept that you are probably correct though.

[kirksnosehair]

the last couple of albums Opeth made with harsh vocals were a really good example of how to use them effectively, especially on "Heritage"

I think you mean Watershed

Yep, I did mean Watershed 

[twosuitsluke]

The guy who used to roar for The Haunted did it with some fucking passion. The screaming from 3:29 onwards gives me goosebumps. https://youtu.be/DfoGoLTY2Gs

Man, I played The Haunted to death back in '07/08! Great, great band. I was listening to a playlist of my all time favourite songs earlier actually and The Flood came on. Still probably my favourite song by The Haunted, followed closely by Hollow Ground 

[kirksnosehair]

Yeah, Devin Townsend is unlistenable to me.

Yeah, about 95% of his stuff is the same for me, but he does have some pretty good material sprinkled in there with regular vocals.  I really enjoyed Transcendence a lot.


For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not. 

[bluefox4000]

Yeah, Devin Townsend is unlistenable to me.

Yeah, about 95% of his stuff is the same for me, but he does have some pretty good material sprinkled in there with regular vocals.  I really enjoyed Transcendence a lot.


For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not.

i agree........as i said earlier design or not.  Growling at me will diminish an otherwise kick ass song.

now i CAN learn to tolerate it.   but tolerating it is all it will ever be.

[Train of Naught]

Not sure if it’s been said already in the thread but the poll and poll options are strongly biased towards ‘no’. There’s no middle ground between “I literally want harsh vocals in all my music” and “I think they’re merely OK whenever they are used”

It would be interesting to have a fair/unbiased version of the same topic though.

In context they could be either a dealmaker or breaker for me, but the same quite obviously goes for clean vocals, for guitar work, for drums, for bass... etc.

[ariich]

And critizising growls for not being melodic is beside the point, they are not meant to be melodic.

I hate hearing drums in music, just not melodic enough.

Sure, but I can say that melody is important to me and I'm not interested in music that doesn't have a lot of melody or has less melody in certain aspects. Like, I would not want to listen to an album that was all drums, or an album where the drums were the lead instrument and all the other instruments just rhythmically followed the drums with little to no melody. But not liking those albums wouldn't mean I don't like drums. I like drums when they are a complement to other instruments. I don't like them when they play an outsized role to the detriment of other elements, like melody.

For sure, but that's about the balance of different elements in the music as a whole, rather than the vocals themselves. Lots of bands that mostly/entirely use harsh vocals have extremely melodic music going on.

Besides which, lots of bands that use clean vocals have no interesting sense of melody.

[ZirconBlue]

If it's something like the most recent JLB albums, where growling vocals are used sparingly and as a contrast to the clean vocals, then I'm OK with them.  Otherwise, I have no interest in harsh vocals.

[SoundscapeMN]

I actually find Opeth without the mix of Growls and Clean vocals, doesn't sound like Opeth.
Although I like Damnation, I find since Heritage, they just don't have what made them unique.

[Peter Mc]

Generally speaking, I dislike harsh vocals a lot and don’t listen to all these metalcore bands.  As with all things though, there are exceptions to the rule and that exception for me was Opeth.  I initially suffered through the growling stuff to get to the melodic parts but I grew to appreciate all aspects of them and I think Akerfeldt’s harsh vocals were incredible.  They actually sounded genuinely menacing and evil as compared to the screeching/screaming of metalcore or the really sludgy death metal stuff.

I do love Devin as well but he doesn’t do too many harsh vocals these days.  I don’t listen to his super heavy SYL stuff.

[Ben_Jamin]

I actually find Opeth without the mix of Growls and Clean vocals, doesn't sound like Opeth.
Although I like Damnation, I find since Heritage, they just don't have what made them unique.

It has nothing to do with the vocals. It's due to Mikael Akerfeldts writing and composition, it has changed from the Death Metal style to a more 70's Prog kind of style. Watershed is a good example of that Opeth sound with the good clean vocals and Death Growls. And the last Opeth album to have that old writing style.

And I don't think that music would sound good with growls. Maybe Pale Communion songs would work. But the music is calmer now, and not as aggressive, but it's still Metal. Akerfeldt is also older now and that can play into an artist wanting to change up their style. It's progressing as a musician and life.

[KevShmev]

It has nothing to do with the vocals. It's due to Mikael Akerfeldts writing and composition, it has changed from the Death Metal style to a more 70's Prog kind of style. Watershed is a good example of that Opeth sound with the good clean vocals and Death Growls. And the last Opeth album to have that old writing style.

And I don't think that music would sound good with growls. Maybe Pale Communion songs would work. But the music is calmer now, and not as aggressive, but it's still Metal. Akerfeldt is also older now and that can play into an artist wanting to change up their style. It's progressing as a musician and life.

Agreed.  And their newer stuff still totally sounds like classic non-growling Opeth.  Songs like Harvest, Isolation Years and Face of Melinda would have been right at home on the last few Opeth albums. 

[Dedalus]

For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not.

As a personal reason for not liking it's fair enough. But the "personal argument" has already been dropped a few pages ago. It has even been suggested that the existence of this type of vocal is merely a consequence of people's lack of talent (who cannot sing like Freedie Mercury).

Criticizing growling vocals for lacking a melody is like criticizing heavy metal for being heavy and with distorted guitars or criticizing the prog for being complex and intricate.

Sure, anyone may not like growling vocals because they lacking a melody, or prog bands because they are too pompous and complex, but that's just a personal reason for not liking something. As a general critic, it is silly.

[crazy climber dude]

Most of the stuff my son listens to has harsh vocals. I have heard so much of it from him that it has broken me down. It's a matter of exposure and incremental tolerance.

He started off with Lamb of God. And initially I was put off, but then the more he exposed me to other vocalists, Randy seemed almost tame in comparison (which is saying a lot).

That stated, I do have a threshold. If I am going to be interested, there typically has to be something else about the song, band, or music in general that is redeeming. Or even the individual personality of the singer. It also helps of course when they do EXCELLENT clean vocals as well.

Some of my favorites:

- Tatiana Shmayluk. As DoctorAction mentioned, the versatility. Her YT reaction videos are already the stuff of legends. It's how SEAMLESSLY she can enter and exit all the vocal styles she pulls off. The growling is SO contrasted with her incredible cleans, that it definitely takes you aback like no other vocalist, male or female. Also, the rest of the Jinjer band is amazing.

- Alissa White-Gluz. Keeping with the ladies, she was Tatiana before Tatiana. Just not quite on that level. But a similar shock. Both ladies are very attractive too....which adds to the depth of the contrast, as it were. Besides that, she plays with Jeff freaking Loomis! And, personal bias.....I was there at the Nightwish "Debacle" in Denver when she and Elize Ryd filled in for Anette Olzon. I was just a few feet away, and her stage presence....like Tatiana's.....is, shall we say, palpable.

- Michael Akerfeldt. Opeth is so great/interesting as a band, and the cleans are so good, that it's easy to have him on the list.

- Randy Blythe. Still pretty much sounds the same after all these years. I say that as a compliment. For doing as many live shows as they have done with him singing like that, it's impressive. Lamb of God is a great band too.

- Jake Superchi. From the black metal band UADA. He can do VERY low death growls to high pitched screaming. My affinity for him is based primarily on one of my favorite YT videos, Cult of a Dying Sun. They filmed it in a remote area of Washington state near Mt. St. Helens. That environment SO adds to the mood/impact of the song.

Wondering if you could also add vocalists who walk the line of what we would define as harsh by today's standards? Especially those not typically known for such. Like Russell Allen, for example. He tinkered with more aggressive vocals on certain parts of The Odyssey album, and then went almost all that direction on Paradise Lost. The change was in no small part to match the sound of the music/tenor of the album, but was rather off putting for a lot of hardcore Symphony X fans. 

[SoundscapeMN]

Paul Kuhr from November's Doom and especially with Subterranean Masquerade is one I think of as a favorite extreme vocalist.

[Kotowboy]

Matt Heafy says that if you do it right - Harsh vocals should put no more strain on your voice than actually talking.

[Stadler]

For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not.

As a personal reason for not liking it's fair enough. But the "personal argument" has already been dropped a few pages ago. It has even been suggested that the existence of this type of vocal is merely a consequence of people's lack of talent (who cannot sing like Freedie Mercury).

Criticizing growling vocals for lacking a melody is like criticizing heavy metal for being heavy and with distorted guitars or criticizing the prog for being complex and intricate.

Sure, anyone may not like growling vocals because they lacking a melody, or prog bands because they are too pompous and complex, but that's just a personal reason for not liking something. As a general critic, it is silly.

I'm not sure I understand your point; isn't all criticism personal in nature? 

Necessity is the mother of invention when it comes to art; people have something to say and they find a way to say it.  Peter Buck sucked at guitar early on, and their music reflected that.  Tony Iommi had only two full fingers on his fretting hand, so he used a certain guitar (Gibson SG) tuned a certain way, and played certain chord shapes.

I don't like growls at all, but I'm not suggesting that everyone who can't sing like Freddie Mercury ought to pack it in and go away. Having said that, though, Peter Buck GOT good, and Tony transcended his limitations fantastically.  I do think that the growls/harsh palatte is a limited one with limited runway to growth.