Author Topic: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist  (Read 28968 times)

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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #315 on: June 25, 2021, 12:21:47 PM »
Are the TOT demos just the instrumental cuts of the songs or are they different from the studio releases?

Offline devieira73

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #316 on: June 25, 2021, 12:31:41 PM »
A tiny different if compared with the final recordings. They are instrumental demos recorded before they entered the studio to actually record the album.
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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #317 on: June 25, 2021, 12:41:17 PM »
And these are the same as released on the Ytsejam releases?

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #318 on: June 25, 2021, 12:44:16 PM »
Are the TOT demos just the instrumental cuts of the songs or are they different from the studio releases?

A tiny different if compared with the final recordings. They are instrumental demos recorded before they entered the studio to actually record the album.

Yup, these demos are before they record the songs with whatever guitars, mics, and other equipment that affects the tone of the final album. So the tone of the songs are going to be different, if they didn't use the guitars they recorded the demos with, or the sound patches JR ended up recording.


Also, I like how the Images and Words LNF album is the only album on Spotify.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #319 on: June 25, 2021, 12:46:15 PM »
And these are the same as released on the Ytsejam releases?

They're remastered.
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Offline jadiggerdt

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #320 on: June 25, 2021, 12:52:30 PM »
Please no new materials in the future. James voice cant do this anymore. This was bad. Take the time hurts!

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #321 on: June 25, 2021, 01:02:21 PM »
Please no new materials in the future. James voice cant do this anymore. This was bad. Take the time hurts!

I thought the changes he did were good for what he is able to do. There is a reason though why MP did the intro live, and also why they haven't played this song live.

But, at the same time, Take The Time is not an easy song to sing. It's really fast paced for a vocalist. Especially if you're touring, as that can exhaust your voice, and you need rest days. Touring schedules can be taxing for some vocalists.

JLB's voice is very hit or miss live and it depends on a lot of factors that range from environment, if he rested the day before, if it's the end of the tour, if it's the beginning of the tour, if he warmed up properly, and if he has a cold that affects his respiratory system.

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Offline Pettor

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #322 on: June 25, 2021, 01:49:32 PM »
Are all archive CDs coming to Spotify etc? 250$ isn't something I could spend on stuff like this but I am interested in hearing it.

Offline OpenYourEyes311

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #323 on: June 25, 2021, 01:54:08 PM »
Are all archive CDs coming to Spotify etc? 250$ isn't something I could spend on stuff like this but I am interested in hearing it.

They have CDs/non-signed vinyl for sale on other sites that don't cost that much. Unsure why their site doesn't offer those.

But to answer the question, as far as I've heard, they should all be coming to streaming platforms as well.

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #324 on: June 25, 2021, 02:06:06 PM »
Yay, 3 straight releases I have no interest in. :(
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #325 on: June 25, 2021, 02:21:49 PM »
I'm enjoying the Budokan release. Actually, not bad as how it was depicted here in DTF. I mean sure, there are some struggles that I would consider minor (scream in Learning to Live) but the performance is very similar to HOW he sang in Distant Memories. I also liked how James sang Another Day, just going lower on the register.

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #326 on: June 25, 2021, 02:34:38 PM »
I just checked Take The Time on Spotify. I was certainly late to the party on this but...James isn't even close on this. Not even close. And those piped in vocals.. so disappointing to hear. I love Dream Theater pretty much more than any other band, but what are we doing?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
You know that a mark of a great song is if TAC hates it with a special passion.

Offline nick_z

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #327 on: June 25, 2021, 05:10:34 PM »
Agree that the vocals on Take the Time are a bit rough. I don't necessarily mind the piped-in background vox, but I think JLB should stick to harmonizing to them when they pop up, instead of freestyling  ;)

Also agree that Take the Time must be an extraordinarily hard song to sing live, especially in the context of a full concert (and in the midst of full tour on top of that)...

...which got me thinking - who do you guys think, in the current metal/pop scene, would be able to pretty much nail that song live?

Offline countoftuscany42

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #328 on: June 25, 2021, 05:45:08 PM »
While he's not my favorite singer just based on his vocal style, I think the singer from Periphery could do a solid version with a unique feel

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #329 on: June 25, 2021, 06:09:51 PM »
Also agree that Take the Time must be an extraordinarily hard song to sing live, especially in the context of a full concert (and in the midst of full tour on top of that)...

...which got me thinking - who do you guys think, in the current metal/pop scene, would be able to pretty much nail that song live?

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
You know that a mark of a great song is if TAC hates it with a special passion.

Offline nick_z

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #330 on: June 25, 2021, 06:30:46 PM »



 :biggrin: And a perfect picture to boot! He's like "Me? Yeah, I think I can handle it..."

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #331 on: June 25, 2021, 09:35:55 PM »
To those who dig demos.... how often do you listen to them? I don't think I've cared about a demo of any album/song ever, but even if I did, it would be something I would listen to once out of curiosity. I can't imagine I would revisit it with any regularity to be something worth purchasing.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #332 on: June 25, 2021, 11:32:56 PM »
Only got to listen to 3 tracks on Budokan before the rain started pouring down on me on my walk and had to go home but I was digging it hardcore.

After reading all these comments I was dreading hearing JLB's performance. I remember seeing this tour and thinking some of his modifications were a bit odd but having a blast overall. I assumed they would not translate well on a recording. How wrong I was (and a lot of you too)!

In some ways I felt his performance was more emotional since he wasn't concentrating so hard on just hitting the right notes. I think it helped the overall mood that they tuned down a half step. Everything sounded really heavy.

Sure I missed the high note in Another Day and I'm sure there will be a few others but man, this sounded so much better than I thought it was going to and James did much better than anyone is giving him credit for.  :metal :metal :metal

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #333 on: June 26, 2021, 07:00:14 AM »
To those who dig demos.... how often do you listen to them? I don't think I've cared about a demo of any album/song ever, but even if I did, it would be something I would listen to once out of curiosity. I can't imagine I would revisit it with any regularity to be something worth purchasing.

It really depends on how different the demo is compared to the final album track.

Most demos are vastly different than the final album track. I listen to these types of demos.

Demos are not meant to sound good either. Demos are meant for the record label to get their approval of the songs being on the record labels product. Some labels let the artists have full control while others have a big say in what songs will make the final cut. These cut demos, may become recorded songs in the future, or become unreleased tracks the label can sell later on.

The FII demos are a great example of demos I wouldn't mind buying...


All of the Chroma Key songs on Patreon are demos. With an intent that one day, they might be recorded and released on an album.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #334 on: June 26, 2021, 07:07:51 AM »
Only got to listen to 3 tracks on Budokan before the rain started pouring down on me on my walk and had to go home but I was digging it hardcore.

After reading all these comments I was dreading hearing JLB's performance. I remember seeing this tour and thinking some of his modifications were a bit odd but having a blast overall. I assumed they would not translate well on a recording. How wrong I was (and a lot of you too)!

In some ways I felt his performance was more emotional since he wasn't concentrating so hard on just hitting the right notes. I think it helped the overall mood that they tuned down a half step. Everything sounded really heavy.

Sure I missed the high note in Another Day and I'm sure there will be a few others but man, this sounded so much better than I thought it was going to and James did much better than anyone is giving him credit for.  :metal :metal :metal

I enjoyed Another Day and his modifications. I like how he chose to gradually up his vocals, and make that middle section more different by adding in melodies that sti for the song and basically makes that part not the climax. Which leads into the guitar solo which impacts it more. This decision made the song build and climax at the end where JLB does go for the high notes. They made the climax of the song be the end chorus.

I'm not at all surprised about Take The Time either. And this song is the reason I believe they had to down tune for.

The half step makes a big difference as it becomes more emotional. The piano hits harder, especially in their soft songs tracks, Another Day, Surrounded and Wait For Sleep.
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Offline nick_z

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #335 on: June 26, 2021, 07:36:43 AM »
Also really enjoyed MM's performance. It's kind of funny how my mind was waiting for certain drum parts the way MP had modified them for the live setting over the years, and in some of the cases MM stuck closer to the studio version. Kind of cool, actually ;) And I really love what he does under the brief solo in Sorrounded.

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #336 on: June 26, 2021, 07:42:15 AM »
Also really enjoyed MM's performance. It's kind of funny how my mind was waiting for certain drum parts the way MP had modified them for the live setting over the years, and in some of the cases MM stuck closer to the studio version. Kind of cool, actually ;) And I really love what he does under the brief solo in Sorrounded.
this is one of the parts that have been improved by him. (as well as the tom run leading into James' first cue, which is a clean run of all 32nds, as well as the entire band doubling the one of the unison sections of Met1). As it should have been all along IMHO. (more technical and more musical.) Sadly, Mike wasn't in the band yet 30 years ago. I'm grateful to have attended this tour.
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Offline Fritzinger

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #337 on: June 26, 2021, 08:09:41 AM »
Concerning the downturning, I always wondered: doesn't Jordan have perfect pitch? If he just digitally tunes his keyboard down, doesn't that completely fuck with his hearing? He can't possibly have relearned all these parts in a new key... (but then again, I bet Jordan could play all these parts with his left butt cheek if he wanted to). Does anyone know how he did this?
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Offline Schurftkut

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #338 on: June 26, 2021, 09:03:06 AM »
he replied in an interview that it really fucked with his brains, playing the correct notes but hearing different tones. musclememory was more important though so he put up with it.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #339 on: June 26, 2021, 09:08:22 AM »
Concerning the downturning, I always wondered: doesn't Jordan have perfect pitch? If he just digitally tunes his keyboard down, doesn't that completely fuck with his hearing? He can't possibly have relearned all these parts in a new key... (but then again, I bet Jordan could play all these parts with his left butt cheek if he wanted to). Does anyone know how he did this?

He addressed this on his interview with Rick Beato around the time of this tour. He said that even though he has perfect pitch, he's played these songs SO MANY TIMES that he didn't want to re-learn them, so he basically just down-tuned the keyboard and tried not to think too much about it :lol

(Too lazy to search the video right now, but it should be on Rick's YT channel)
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline nick_z

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #340 on: June 26, 2021, 12:20:12 PM »

this is one of the parts that have been improved by him. (as well as the tom run leading into James' first cue, which is a clean run of all 32nds, as well as the entire band doubling the one of the unison sections of Met1). As it should have been all along IMHO. (more technical and more musical.) Sadly, Mike wasn't in the band yet 30 years ago. I'm grateful to have attended this tour.

That part is super-cool live, and I love that they do it that way, as a little twist...but I actually prefer it with the steady beat as on the album

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #341 on: June 26, 2021, 02:38:14 PM »
To those who dig demos.... how often do you listen to them? I don't think I've cared about a demo of any album/song ever, but even if I did, it would be something I would listen to once out of curiosity. I can't imagine I would revisit it with any regularity to be something worth purchasing.

I rarely listen to demos, unless there's something different.  There are some demos by the Buffalo Springfield on their box set that blow away the final versions - the demos are just acoustic and vocals - so I prefer those.  I prefer the demos for FII by DT, too.

Offline devieira73

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #342 on: June 26, 2021, 07:20:33 PM »
About I&W Live Japan 2017... a I think that, at least for the last 10 years, I'm really in peace with James vocals. They changed and that's the reality for almost all vocalists when get older. He will never go back to Octavarium tour days anymore (my fave phase for his voice). Sure, that drastic change in tone and melodies in that part from 2:51 to 3:04 of Take the Time truly is a bit shocking (by the way, that was made by purpose, not by a failure in the middle of his performance - as I thought at first). But I apreciate immensely all the effort James puts in the live performances and I'm really happy that he's still the vocalist of the band.
But... I must say I don't like the pre-recorded backing vocals. I would prefer only James's voice even with its present limitations or, if JP/JR/MM can do some quality backing vocals LIVE, then do it LIVE. I'm not against the use of the click track to enhance the visual presentation of the show, but I'm almost totally against the pre-recorded backing tracks (In DT's case, I think it would be OK just for those movie/robotic voices or some eletronic effects - like in the beginning of Metropolis - or some orchestration).
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Offline evilasiojr

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #343 on: June 26, 2021, 07:51:24 PM »
After my first listen to this official release of Image and Words in Budokan, I gotta say I'm a bit surprised, I actually liked it more than I expected.

When the unofficial bootleg was running out there a couple of years ago, my favorite part of the set wasn't even the IaW set. So I had no really interest on this release. But it was a fun listen.

My highlights: Mangini is killing on the drums; All the jams and extended parts sound really cool; The unison solo in Metropolis with drums and bass added in was AWESOME; James's voice wasn't as bad as I expected, it actually sounded really well overall, although there are those moments when it gets a bit sad to hear the man trying so hard but not getting there.

I'm really excited now for the next one, it is a great set and as far as I remember from the Happy Holidays release, all the band made great performances, including James.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #344 on: June 26, 2021, 07:59:06 PM »
About I&W Live Japan 2017... a I think that, at least for the last 10 years, I'm really in peace with James vocals. They changed and that's the reality for almost all vocalists when get older. He will never go back to Octavarium tour days anymore (my fave phase for his voice). Sure, that drastic change in tone and melodies in that part from 2:51 to 3:04 of Take the Time truly is a bit shocking (by the way, that was made by purpose, not by a failure in the middle of his performance - as I thought at first). But I apreciate immensely all the effort James puts in the live performances and I'm really happy that he's still the vocalist of the band.
But... I must say I don't like the pre-recorded backing vocals. I would prefer only James's voice even with its present limitations or, if JP/JR/MM can do some quality backing vocals LIVE, then do it LIVE. I'm not against the use of the click track to enhance the visual presentation of the show, but I'm almost totally against the pre-recorded backing tracks (In DT's case, I think it would be OK just for those movie/robotic voices or some eletronic effects - like in the beginning of Metropolis - or some orchestration).


Before MP and JP started singing backing vocals, when they would play Take The Time, the audience would sing the lyrics "It's time to take the time". And on the NYC 93 bootleg, You don't hear no lyrics or anyone singing at all.

I'm just glad you can at least hear the audience a bit in the mix.
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Offline devieira73

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #345 on: June 26, 2021, 08:15:28 PM »
Yeah, that was really cool on that version! :tup
About MM, the cool thing is that he manages to add something of his own on the MP songs and, at the same time, he really is very dedicated to keep a lot from those original drums arrangements. Since the DT12 tour on, he's been doing this in a perfectly balanced way IMO. In his beginning in DT I think he had a lot more note by note approach in his performances on MP songs, for obvious reasons.
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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #346 on: June 26, 2021, 08:36:46 PM »
Concerning the downturning, I always wondered: doesn't Jordan have perfect pitch? If he just digitally tunes his keyboard down, doesn't that completely fuck with his hearing? He can't possibly have relearned all these parts in a new key... (but then again, I bet Jordan could play all these parts with his left butt cheek if he wanted to). Does anyone know how he did this?

He addressed this on his interview with Rick Beato around the time of this tour. He said that even though he has perfect pitch, he's played these songs SO MANY TIMES that he didn't want to re-learn them, so he basically just down-tuned the keyboard and tried not to think too much about it :lol

(Too lazy to search the video right now, but it should be on Rick's YT channel)

https://youtu.be/TToz0QP25YU?t=2841
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
You know that a mark of a great song is if TAC hates it with a special passion.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #347 on: June 26, 2021, 09:19:38 PM »
About I&W Live Japan 2017... a I think that, at least for the last 10 years, I'm really in peace with James vocals. They changed and that's the reality for almost all vocalists when get older. He will never go back to Octavarium tour days anymore (my fave phase for his voice). Sure, that drastic change in tone and melodies in that part from 2:51 to 3:04 of Take the Time truly is a bit shocking (by the way, that was made by purpose, not by a failure in the middle of his performance - as I thought at first). But I apreciate immensely all the effort James puts in the live performances and I'm really happy that he's still the vocalist of the band.
But... I must say I don't like the pre-recorded backing vocals. I would prefer only James's voice even with its present limitations or, if JP/JR/MM can do some quality backing vocals LIVE, then do it LIVE. I'm not against the use of the click track to enhance the visual presentation of the show, but I'm almost totally against the pre-recorded backing tracks (In DT's case, I think it would be OK just for those movie/robotic voices or some eletronic effects - like in the beginning of Metropolis - or some orchestration).


Before MP and JP started singing backing vocals, when they would play Take The Time, the audience would sing the lyrics "It's time to take the time". And on the NYC 93 bootleg, You don't hear no lyrics or anyone singing at all.



Or when the Galactic Cowboys opened, they ran on stage and sang that part...and then ran off....until it was time to sing it again.  :lol
To those who dig demos.... how often do you listen to them? I don't think I've cared about a demo of any album/song ever, but even if I did, it would be something I would listen to once out of curiosity. I can't imagine I would revisit it with any regularity to be something worth purchasing.

I listened to the I&W, WDADU, and FII demos quite a bit because they were all very different in many respects. I never listen to the Awake or ToT demos. Very similar to the final product.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #348 on: June 27, 2021, 02:30:37 PM »
I never listen to the Awake or ToT demos. Very similar to the final product.
Well at least The Mirror and CiaW both have some arrangement variations to make them a bit more interesting, but I know what you're saying. Wish there was a second disc included that had stuff like KM's original pre-band demos of SDVest (I know it's out there, but not in the greatest quality) and 6:00, and if I'm not mistaken, JP brought in IF fairly complete which would be cool to hear. Same for any other DT songs that were brought in pretty complete but were then Dream Theater-ized (I think AD and Surrounded both fall into that category, too).
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Offline LTE777

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Re: Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist
« Reply #349 on: June 30, 2021, 05:42:56 AM »
Say what you want about JLBs vocals but I absolutely LOVE the version and his phrasing in Another Day on the LNF:I&W version and prefer it over the original