Lost Not Forgotten Archives Wishlist

[ReaperKK]

For my money the I&W live in Tokyo version is my favorite. That middle section with Moore doubling the ethereal melody of the song and later supporting JP's solo is truly amazing and it completely elevates the listener. But also the 5YIALT version is another great rendition too.

I agree, that middle solo section is one of the best JP live solo moments IMO.

[hefdaddy42]

I prefer the structure of the '91 version of TLF, but the production of the '94 version.

My preference for the '91 is slight.  I love the song in all its forms and fashions.

[Grandepapa]

- The 3 DT songs played from MM's audition.

Absolutely this. Every time I watch the drummer auditions I wish more footage of the drummers playing the songs had been included.

Also, anything from the escape from the studio tour.

[gzarruk]

- The 3 DT songs played from MM's audition.

Absolutely this. Every time I watch the drummer auditions I wish more footage of the drummers playing the songs had been included.

Also, anything from the escape from the studio tour.

Since this was posted before we knew how the LNFA would be released, I'll now change that original idea to the whole MM audition (the songs, the "composed" jam, and the free jams) or as much as they can fit in a single disc.

[Robo4900]

IMO, a re-release of COTC is pretty much mandatory, if it's possible for them to do it, and if they do, they would be amiss to exclude anything that was on the original version. Though having both versions of To Live Forever back-to-back never made much sense to me. I'd move the '91 version to the end as a "Bonus track", since the '94 version was the one that was actually used as a B-side and IIRC fully studio-produced. ('94 was recorded at the Awake sessions, I believe '91 is basically a remastered version of the ATCO demo)

I wonder if they could find room on the disc to fit the original version of A Change Of Seasons.

[Cool Chris]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

[gzarruk]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I'd say the same about another live version of SFAM or IAW in full or a re-release of Happy Holidays, which was offered as a free high-quality download... but here we are

[HOF]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I don't have a lot of them. I was never a fan club member and I'm one who never got around to buying from Ytsejam. I imagine anyone who became a fan after MP left is in the same boat.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

*raises hand*

[TheCountOfNYC]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

*raises hand*

I only have To Live Forever due to me buying the '94 version from Greatest Hit on iTunes. I guess technically I have Raise the Knife because of Score as well, but I don't have any studio versions of these songs besides TLF.

[Stadler]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

Well, as a HUGE fan of COTC (if it was an album proper, it'd be in the top quarter/third of their albums) I have it and have bought and sold a few copies over the years.  I won't buy it again, but without access to it - and it's not common nor necessarily cheap on the used market - I would be a candidate.   It's hard to assemble all of those songs individually especially WITHOUT Ytsejam operating.

[Trav]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

Since I never listen to CDs anymore, yes. A remastered digital version would be awesome.

[hefdaddy42]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I want it, for sure.  I mean, I have all of the songs, but not in top-notch quality in physical form.

[pg1067]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I remember the first time I heard about COTC.  It was talked about with such reverence that I felt I needed to have it.  I then heard what was on it and said, "never mind."  I'd estimate the interest exists almost entirely among completists and collectors.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I remember the first time I hear about COTC.  It was talked about with such reverence that I felt I needed to have it.  I then heard what was on it and said, "never mind."  I'd estimate the interest exists almost entirely among completists and collectors.

I'm not a collector, but for me, it's about having all officially released Dream Theater songs (my meaning of that is songs released on albums, EP's, and singles), and of those songs, the only one I don't have is Eve.

[OpenYourEyes311]

I don't NOT want COTC re-released. But seeing as I already own it, it's far down on the list of things I'd like to see. I mean, seven of the nine tracks had been available through other avenues for years (TLF '91 on the I&W Demos, TLF '94 on Greatest Hit, and all five FII tracks on the FII Demos).

I want to see things that haven't been documented before:

2015 festival shows
Making of Six Degrees
Black Clouds tour
MM's Drummer audition in full
maybe even older live stuff, like with Charlie on vox

The band's been around for 35+ years. Surely they have stuff in the Archives that we haven't heard before.

[pg1067]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I remember the first time I hear about COTC.  It was talked about with such reverence that I felt I needed to have it.  I then heard what was on it and said, "never mind."  I'd estimate the interest exists almost entirely among completists and collectors.

I'm not a collector, but for me, it's about having all officially released Dream Theater songs (my meaning of that is songs released on albums, EP's, and singles), and of those songs, the only one I don't have is Eve.

That's pretty much the definition of a completist.

I want to see things that haven't been documented before:

2015 festival shows
Making of Six Degrees
Black Clouds tour
MM's Drummer audition in full
maybe even older live stuff, like with Charlie on vox

The band's been around for 35+ years. Surely they have stuff in the Archives that we haven't heard before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_nmR6H1juQ&t=6s


With respect to having "stuff in the Archives," you need to distinguish between the band and MP.  Documenting and archiving the band's history was almost exclusively an MP thing.  Unless MP turned stuff over when he left, and excluding things like tapes that JP and JR may have made as part of the songwriting process, I think it's relatively unlikely that the band has much of any unreleased material from the MP era.

[Stadler]

I rag on CoTC all the time, and this isn't going to be a rehash of that. But a serious question... is there anyone who might want those songs who hasn't obtained them in some manner? Is there any demand for those songs at this point in 2021?

I remember the first time I hear about COTC.  It was talked about with such reverence that I felt I needed to have it.  I then heard what was on it and said, "never mind."  I'd estimate the interest exists almost entirely among completists and collectors.

I'm not a collector, but for me, it's about having all officially released Dream Theater songs (my meaning of that is songs released on albums, EP's, and singles), and of those songs, the only one I don't have is Eve.

"Eve" is available on the "The Silent Man" CD single.  There are copies on Discogs and eBay (shipping is the wildcard).

[Trav]

I just preordered the the second release. Man...if someone didn't know the original Happy Holidaze 2013 album cover that this came from, this new album cover wouldn't make any sense.

[Robo4900]

So, to be clear, the COTC songs' availability outside of COTC:

Don't Look Past Me - This version was exclusive to COTC, as there wasn't a fully-produced version with James on vocals before the CD was put together. He recorded new vocals for it in 1999, during the Scenes sessions, I believe. A version of this song from the singer auditions with John Hendricks on vocals was included in the Images & Words demos (out of stock for years). If you hunt around, a "live" rehearsal recording of JLB singing it with the band was on the bootleg Antiquities, but it doesn't have samples or multitracked vocals, and the sound quality is pretty bad. The COTC version was eventually re-released on the Lifting Shadows bonus CD (good luck getting ahold of that!).
To Live Forever '91 - The ATCO demos (also a limited-edition fan club CD), which were reissued on the Images & Words demos (was out of stock for years).
To Live Forever '94 - The Lie single, Greatest Hit.
Eve - The Silent Man single.
Raise The Knife, Where Are You Now, The Way It Used To Be, Cover My Eyes - All available on the Falling Into Infinity demos (again, out of stock for years), but in significantly worse quality (worse mix, worse mastering, etc. They sound plain awful. If the FII demos get re-pressed, they NEED a round of remastering).
Speak To Me - Same as above, but also available in nice sound quality on the Japanese release of Falling Into Infinity, on a bonus mini-CD (also includes a good-quality version of the Take Away My Pain demo).

So, the only way you get all of these songs is by buying the Images & Words demos, the Falling Into Infinity demos, the Lie single or Greatest Hit, and the Silent Man single, and even if you do this, you don't get the JLB version of Don't Look Past Me, and all the FII demos sound atrocious, and you've spent quite a lot of money to get this lot.

COTC only occasionally pops up on eBay and the like, usually going for upwards of £50 (which actually works out better than buying all the individual other things, and sounds better, and has the best version of Don't Look Past Me). Having a re-pressing so people can actually get ahold of these songs without either being a member of the fan club in 1999 or hunting around for obscure singles and long-out-of-print official bootlegs and such that you used to have to buy directly from one website that was last updated in 2009, would definitely be a good thing, and especially if the Lost Not Forgotten Archive releases are going on Spotify and the like (which looks to be the case), it would make all these "obscure" songs way, way more available to average fans, which can only be a good thing.
Certainly, it would be great if a COTC re-release made enough waves to allow Don't Look Past Me to show up on a future tour setlist. (Or, hey, maybe Raise The Knife or Eve)

[TheSoylentMan]

Thanks Robo, this is helpful. I've always wondered if there was a difference between the FII demos and the COTC versions of those tracks. Have never heard a definitive answer on that.

I don't own COTC, but I own all the songs from other releases except the James version of Don't Look Past Me. It's never been worth it to me to pay eBay prices for COTC for the sake of one song. But if they re-release it for a normal CD price *and* it has better-quality versions of the FII b-sides I'd probably go for it.

Wish these things had better cover art though. I didn't love the YtseJam watermark thing, but this kaleidoscope idea is far worse IMO. Reminds me of the graphics from LSFNY (ha). The bootleg versions of Budokan 2017 with the tour promo art look way better than the official release. And just give me the original Happy Holidays cover, silly as it was. I'm not really looking forward to a mangled version of the COTC cover if/when I finally get it. Oh well.

[Stadler]

Nice summary; would point out that the sound of the FII demos is a matter of opinion.  I don't find them THAT bad. 

[Ben_Jamin]

The FII demos are exactly what they're named, you are getting the actual demos from the FII sessions of all the songs. The demos they recorded to send to the record company to give them the go ahead to actually record the final album.

Cleaning Out The Closet are the songs from those Demos that did not make the album. These were polished up from these demos and released, so that all the songs that are not FII demo songs, like Eve and Don't Look Past Me, can have a more smoother sound and mix across the cd, a way to make it it's own release.



If they were to do a Cleaning Out The Closet re-release, I would also like them to include the other non-album songs they have done, Raw Dog, and also these type of demos like, Wither JP vocal demo, and The Best of Times MP vocal demo.

[bosk1]

I'm not sure whether they have the rights to Raw Dog.  But if so, even though it is not something I like very much, I would love to actually have a copy of it.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm not sure whether they have the rights to Raw Dog.  But if so, even though it is not something I like very much, I would love to actually have a copy of it.

It's available digitally on Amazon...

I wouldn't mind having a physical copy of it too, if that's what you meant.

I also wouldn't mind if we were able to hear the actual ending they had planned for it.

[Setlist Scotty]

So, to be clear, the COTC songs' availability outside of COTC:

Nice summary Robo, but don't forget that DLPM actually was released on the bonus CD that came with the original Lifting Shadows biography (the one that had a separate photo book).

I also wouldn't mind if we were able to hear the actual ending they had planned for it.

Wat. That's the first I'm hearing this - got a reference that talks about that?

[Ben_Jamin]

So, to be clear, the COTC songs' availability outside of COTC:

Nice summary Robo, but don't forget that DLPM actually was released on the bonus CD that came with the original Lifting Shadows biography (the one that had a separate photo book).

I also wouldn't mind if we were able to hear the actual ending they had planned for it.

Wat. That's the first I'm hearing this - got a reference that talks about that?

I remember hearing something about how they had an ending with samples from the game, and they couldn't use those due to copyright, and had to end up just doing a sudden ending.

[TAC]

Samples from the game...um yeah, let's just keep the sudden ending.

[Robo4900]

The FII demos are exactly what they're named, you are getting the actual demos from the FII sessions of all the songs. The demos they recorded to send to the record company to give them the go ahead to actually record the final album.

Cleaning Out The Closet are the songs from those Demos that did not make the album. These were polished up from these demos and released, so that all the songs that are not FII demo songs, like Eve and Don't Look Past Me, can have a more smoother sound and mix across the cd, a way to make it it's own release.

I don't think you have the right idea here. The 2007 FII demos release and the 1999 COTC release, as well as all the other releases of the FII demos (Hollow Years single, Japanese FII bonus mini-CD, Lifting Shadows), and every other release of a DT demo recording (the other YtseJam demo releases, some B-sides, etc.) all have some kind of mastering, possibly some were even were remixed from the original stems, if those still existed at the time those releases were put together (not implying they don't exist anymore, but we don't know either way, though I would suspect that the stems for many of the earliest demos, particularly the Majesty ones, don't exist anymore).

The point I'm getting at is this: The FII demos release doesn't sound the way it does because the demos sound bad, it sounds the way it does because of how it was mastered. You can see this quite plainly by listening to any of the other YtseJam demo releases that sound better (WDADU, I&W, or Awake, for instance), or any of the numerous other releases of these demos. Yes, they can be mastered well, and good mastering takes time and effort, but equally, they can be mastered badly due to great time and effort in the wrong direction.

It's possible the mastering engineer behind the FII demos was simply provided with bad copies of the demos, but given good copies existed for mastering on COTC and other releases, and given the fact Mike Portnoy stated in the YtseJam FAQ that "These releases will be top notch" in terms of quality, since he always kept high-quality copies of everything DT did, and all the releases were professionally mastered to (in theory) ensure quality, there is really no reason to suppose that the FII demos just sound that way. Their crappiness on the demos release is just because they were mastered badly. A few minutes of figuring out an EQ setting immediately makes the CD sound infinitely better.

Nice summary Robo, but don't forget that DLPM actually was released on the bonus CD that came with the original Lifting Shadows biography (the one that had a separate photo book).

I did edit this in after realising I'd forgotten this, but I got to it quite late. Still, I appreciate the correction all the same.

I also wouldn't mind if we were able to hear the actual ending they had planned for it.

Wat. That's the first I'm hearing this - got a reference that talks about that?

I don't know if it was samples from the game, but for ages I've heard people say there were supposed to be samples at the end, and that there's a leaked copy SOMEWHERE out there that has the samples in it, but apparently there was some kind of rights issue that meant they had to just cut the song off abruptly.

I'm not sure whether they have the rights to Raw Dog.  But if so, even though it is not something I like very much, I would love to actually have a copy of it.

I do sort of agree, but at the same time, I'm not sure I'd want COTC to be tainted by something that's a bit shit, given how good the rest of the disc is. 

[Stadler]

So, to be clear, the COTC songs' availability outside of COTC:

Nice summary Robo, but don't forget that DLPM actually was released on the bonus CD that came with the original Lifting Shadows biography (the one that had a separate photo book).

One of the things I liked/like (since he does it in some of his other bands, too) about Mike is his awareness.  He was careful to not undermine the value and importance of the Fan Club CDs but he always seemed to find a way to get the stuff out there for the rest of the fan base if they wanted to hear it bad enough.  I love that. 

[Ben_Jamin]

The FII demos are exactly what they're named, you are getting the actual demos from the FII sessions of all the songs. The demos they recorded to send to the record company to give them the go ahead to actually record the final album.

Cleaning Out The Closet are the songs from those Demos that did not make the album. These were polished up from these demos and released, so that all the songs that are not FII demo songs, like Eve and Don't Look Past Me, can have a more smoother sound and mix across the cd, a way to make it it's own release.

The way you phrase this is deceptive. The 2007 FII demos release and the 1999 COTC release, as well as all the other releases of the FII demos (Hollow Years single, Japanese FII bonus mini-CD, Lifting Shadows), and every other release of a DT demo recording (the other YtseJam demo releases, some B-sides, etc.) all have some kind of mastering, possibly some were even were remixed from the original stems, if those still existed at the time those releases were put together (not implying they don't exist anymore, but we don't know either way, though I would suspect that the stems for many of the earliest demos, particularly the Majesty ones, don't exist anymore).

The point I'm getting at is this: The FII demos release doesn't sound the way it does because the demos sound bad, it sounds the way it does because of how it was mastered. You can see this quite plainly by listening to any of the other YtseJam demo releases that sound better (WDADU, I&W, or Awake, for instance), or any of the numerous other releases of these demos. Yes, they can be mastered well, and good mastering takes time and effort, but equally, they can be mastered badly due to great time and effort in the wrong direction.

It's possible the mastering engineer behind the FII demos was simply provided with bad copies of the demos, but given good copies existed for mastering on COTC and other releases, and given the fact Mike Portnoy stated in the YtseJam FAQ that "These releases will be top notch" in terms of quality, since he always kept high-quality copies of everything DT did, and all the releases were professionally mastered to (in theory) ensure quality, there is really no reason to suppose that the FII demos just sound that way. Their crappiness on the demos release is just because they were mastered badly. A few minutes of figuring out an EQ setting immediately makes the CD sound infinitely better.

Yeah I get what you are saying.

What I am getting at, is the the band recorded these demos with no intention of them being released or mastered for anything other than showing the record company the songs they made. So they weren't going to be great or the best. These were the demos that were created before they completely changed some of these demos, and recorded them to be what we hear on the album. And some songs are only available on this release, which is why I bought it. Mainly to hear Where Are You Now? and I know it's not mastered at all or mixed well at all. I never expected any polishing from these demo releases, I actually expected raw demo with no mastering or mixing whatsoever.

Were they able to use the actual stems from those demos, for the COTC releases and others, and able to master them better? Could be so, that's why they sound better.

I don't have my cd booklet on hand for my demos to look and read again if MP mentions it, but I think what MP released are these demos that were recorded, as is, with only mastering to make them have a bit of a consistency in terms of volume throughout the release. I could also be completely wrong, and it is what you said that the mastering engineer got bad copies of the demos.

[zappafrank2112]

Certainly, it would be great if a COTC re-release made enough waves to allow Don't Look Past Me to show up on a future tour setlist.

Very glad I got to see them do both DLPM and TLF on the I&W&B show I attended

[Fritzinger]

It looks like the next LNF release will feature Train Of Thought's original instrumental demos:

https://justforkicks.de/detail/index/sArticle/10887

[devieira73]

https://open.spotify.com/album/5vG3r0Cdc05CnJMO5VQe5B?si=wSBTctgQSdyiKRaaD955pw&dl_branch=1

[devieira73]

It looks like the next LNF release will feature Train Of Thought's original instrumental demos:

https://justforkicks.de/detail/index/sArticle/10887

Wow, they will keep one release per month? Excellent. IMO the ToT demos are the best from the demos official bootlegs in terms of the recording/mix quality.