What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?

[Cruithne]

I love both of the Illusion records and much prefer them to Appetite.

The problems:

1) My World. Oh deary me no.
2) Two versions of Don't Cry and no good reason I can see for the second one.
3) Get In The Ring. Ignore the lyrics and the rant and it's a pretty good song... catch yourself listening to the rant and it's all a bit like listening to a yappy little dog. It doesn't help that the young Axl carried all the physical threat of a spring onion.
4) To a mainstream audience there's probably an off-putting element of indulgence to the songwriting - nothing that's going to faze any self respecting prog fan but I can imagine the wider world not taking a 9 minute single, with a video in which dolphins swim up the street, too well.

As for Chinese Democracy - it's ok.

[Dream Team]

I too prefer UYI. So much variety in the songwriting and a ton of classics. Better production and drumming.

[dparrott]

I'm all for variety but this is too much of it for me.  Partially because I don't like his voice for ballads.  And yeah too much filler.

[DragonAttack]

The problems was/were the hype.  And just like the mistake Springsteen made, ya just don't wait years to release an album, and then release two at the same time.

Plus.......they suxxed.

[WildRanger]

Plus.......they suxxed.

That's subjective. I disagree.

[Max Kuehnau]

The problems was/were the hype.  And just like the mistake Springsteen made, ya just don't wait years to release an album, and then release two at the same time.

Plus.......they suxxed.

I loved Human Touch though and still do, just saying. Never was and never will be a fan of GNR, but I liked November Rain from these albums.

[WildRanger]

4) To a mainstream audience there's probably an off-putting element of indulgence to the songwriting - nothing that's going to faze any self respecting prog fan but I can imagine the wider world not taking a 9 minute single, with a video in which dolphins swim up the street, too well.

Estranged >>> any song from Appetite.
I recognized some artistic depth in that song.

[The Walrus]

It really makes me laugh when people say there's too much variety to these albums. They're literally almost all blues based rock music. And why CAN'T you release 2 albums simultaneously? It clearly worked for UYI judging by the sales and multiple world tours

[Stadler]

But Springsteen suffers from the same problem:  everyone wants to call him an "artist" as long as he keeps turning out "Born In The U.S.A" and "Born To Run".   Springsteen has found his way of doing both at this point, but the Human Touch/Lucky Town phase was a CRUCIAL part of his artistic growth; he threw away the crutches so to speak (the E Street Band) and that was a tough pill for many to swallow.    I'm no Springsteen fan boy, but in my humble opinion, he's America's greatest living rock artist (yes, even over Dylan) and we wouldn't have him in the way we do now if it wasn't for that.

It kind of bums me out that so many "fans" aren't really interested in their artists actually BEING artists. 

[Elite]

What is an 'artist' though?

[Buddyhunter1]

nothing is wrong with these albums

Hey man, good to see you back.

I knew this thread would bring you back from lurking 

Petition to rename WildRanger to WalrusRanger

[Stadler]

What is an 'artist' though?

To my mind, it's someone with something to say, musically, lyrically, pictorially, whatever; someone that wants to connect with others.  Someone with an emotion or emotions that need/want to be expressed.

[Samsara]

As many people no doubt feel, it was too bloated.

There was no need for a double album. There was clear filler on both. Had they condensed it into one album, it may have been the best follow up full-length album in the history of rock. There was SO MUCH to like on the Illusion albums. But you have to constantly skip stuff that is clearly not on par with some of the other tracks.

Looking at the track listing for both records (it has been about four or five years since I've listened to them -- probably a few months after the Century Link Field show with Alice in Chains opening up in Seattle -- great gig), here is what I'd keep for ONE album (in no particular order):

Civil War
14 Years
Yesterdays
Pretty Tied Up
Locomotive
Estranged
You Could Be Mine
Don't Cry (pick a version)
Right Next Door to Hell
Dust N Bones
November Rain
Coma
Double Talkin' Jive
The Garden
Knockin' on Heaven's Door
Live and Let Die

I threw the two covers on the list because they were singles, and they are really well done. But that's 16 songs. And if that doesn't fit on an 80-minute (or were they using 74 back then?) disc, then you shave off a track or two.

I know opinions will vary about the songs, obviously, but some of the shorter tracks on there, that are like 2:30...I mean, not necessary. Just filler. But if you condensed everything to one album, with some sort of "trim the fat" tracklist, Use Your Illusion would be one of the most, if not the best follow up hard rock record ever recorded (with apologies to the various great ones that have been made over the years -- first in mind is Led Zeppelin 2).

[MirrorMask]

These two albums and Load and Reload by Metallica are probably the most analyzed in the "Make a single album" scenarios 

I don't know how I would approach them, since we're talking about it, let me just say that I never experienced them in real time; they were relatively new in 1995 when I approached had rock and foreign music (started with Bon Jovi the year before and then Guns n' Roses), then I discovered heavy metal with Iron Maiden and Metallica and there was no turning back, I quickly turned my back on GnR and moved onto power metal rather than staying with hard rock (and I always liked Bon Jovi more than GnR anyway).

So for the longest time I never really cared to go back to GnR, eventually last year with so much free time due to working from home, I gave them a spin, and that was probably the first time I ever judged them with a... dunno, artistic maturity? after a full complete musical journey or whatever?

They ARE good albums, after all, annoying Axl voice aside. Maybe you lose too much if you condense them into a single album, maybe they should have released them one year apart, and with both having no longer than 12 or 10 songs. Still, it was a bold move and those records are definitively famous, and I don't know how a different approach could have made things better or worse... the songs were those ones in the end, the singles were the ones released anyway, November Rain, Don't Cry and all those longass videos made history anyway, so there was not much else to do with those records, aside the fun speculations we all like to do here 

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, I'll bite, right now I don't remember well all the songs, but off the top of my head, here's the ones I would save:

Right Next Door to Hell
Dust N' Bones
Live and Let Die
Don't Cry
Bad Obsession
Back Off Bitch
November Rain
The Garden (because of Alice Cooper mainly)
Don't Damn Me
Dead Horse
Coma

---------------

Civil War
14 Years
Yesterdays
Knockin' on Heaven's Door
Get in the Ring
Pretty Tied Up
Locomotive
So Fine
Estranged
You Could Be Mine


Maybe I could do some more trimming but I don't mind at all these ones.

[Dave_Manchester]

You'd toss out Double Talkin' Jive and Breakdown? Yikes! The latter in particular is one of their very finest moments.

[Stadler]

I think the Metallica comparison is apt here; they were two acts coming off monster records, and not really sure where to go next.   Both sets are artists looking for a path forward, not wanting to repeat themselves... and so putting it all out there for the people to decide.   I think there's very little filler on the UYI records, frankly.

Personally, I can't get to 80 minutes; I'm at 90 and I've already cut things I didn't want to cut (Don't Damn Me; that end section is one of the best parts of the record).   I suppose if I cut Back Off Bitch, Double Talkin' Jive, Bad Apples, and You Could Be Mine, that gets me to 79:59.

Dust N' Bones
Live And Let Die
Bad Obsession
November Rain
The Garden
Dead Horse
Coma
Civil War
14 Years
Yesterdays
Knocking On Heaven's Door
Locomotive
Estranged

But I'm not happy with that.


And there's no winning; people to this day have "Abacab - Expanded" and "The Joshua Tree - Expanded" on their iPods, because all the other songs from the session that would have gone into the "double CD" inevitably get released as b-sides and EPs. 

[Mebert78]

I must be one of the rare people who love these albums from start to finish.  I remember playing them to death back in junior high and high school.  Even if I loved some tracks more than others (I think "Estranged" is my favorite), I really grew to appreciate all of the songs -- even the silly ones.  There was so much diversity -- lengthy epics, cover tunes, hard rockers, blues, etc.  I feel like GNR really knocked it out of the park with UYI 1&2.

[MirrorMask]

You'd toss out Double Talkin' Jive and Breakdown? Yikes! The latter in particular is one of their very finest moments.

Never, ever liked DTJ. I admit I don't remember at all Breakdown however. I picked the songs that I'm definitively sure I like.

[BelichickFan]

I won't be able to cut to 80 minutes.

Right Next Door to Hell 3:02 3:02
Dust n Bones 4:58 8:00
Back off Bitch 5:04 13:04
Double Talkin' Jive 3:24 16:28
November Rain 8:58 25:26
Don't Damn Me 5:19 30:45
Coma 10:14 40:59
Civil War 7:43 48:42
14 Years 4:21 53:03
Yesterdays 3:16 56:19
Breakdown 7:05 63:24
Pretty Tied Up 4:48 68:12
Locomotive 8:42 76:54
Estranged 9:24 86:18
You Could be Mine 5:44 92:02

So I didn't get there and I already left off Don't Cry, Live and Let Die, Knockin' on Heavens Door.  I'll remove Breakdown  that get me to 84:57.  I guess You Could be Mine could go, that gets me to 79:13.

Right Next Door to Hell
Dust n Bones
Back off Bitch
Double Talkin' Jive
November Rain
Don't Damn Me
Coma
Civil War
14 Years
Yesterdays
Pretty Tied Up
Locomotive
Estranged

The leftovers would be a hell of an album.  FWIW, I don't have UYI I and UYI II.  I just combined them into one Use Your Illusion.  Comes in at 2:31:51, the only ones I really want to get rid of are "Get in the Ring" (due to the lyrics) and "My World".  And probably "Don't Cry, alt lyrics".

[MirrorMask]

The problem is that the real standouts are the long songs. You can only have so many of them before you run out of CD time.... and an album full of "epics" is quite unbalanced.

Someone mentioned Springsteen before, he often had the exactly opposite problem - his classic albums are all in the vinyl format, and so they were 45' or shorter, and for each album there's a phuckton of leftovers songs; for a couple of albums he made commemorative boxsets and many of those unreleased tracks were released (and even more got a boxset).

Imagine if GNR had this approach - releasing a single Use your Illusion album, an hour or so of material, and the rest surfacing through the years and people trying to figure out what an "ultimate UYI album" would sound like....

[Elite]

I’d toss out everything and leave just the final guitar solo in November Rain but without Axl’s moaning

[Dave_Manchester]

I must be one of the rare people who love these albums from start to finish.  I remember playing them to death back in junior high and high school.  Even if I loved some tracks more than others (I think "Estranged" is my favorite), I really grew to appreciate all of the songs -- even the silly ones.  There was so much diversity -- lengthy epics, cover tunes, hard rockers, blues, etc.  I feel like GNR really knocked it out of the park with UYI 1&2.

This is pretty much me. I played both albums to death in school when I was about 12 (you'd think strutting around the playground blasting Civil War on cassette through the fluffy headphones of a Sony Walkman would make you a hit with the girls but for some baffling reason it never did with me) and Estranged was - and still is - among my very favourite songs. There is so much variety and experimentation on those albums and I love when bands do that, I mean when they've just had a massive hit album and for their next release they go in a different direction (another example, for better or worse - Radiohead with Kid A) rather than just repeat the formula.

[The Walrus]

This notion that the short songs are inherently less worthy than others is ridiculous imo, as is the idea that the albums should have been released far apart. You have your entire lives to digest 30 songs and the sales and charts prove a simultaneous release wasn't a hindrance to their success. The implication that it has to be one of if not the the biggest release in the history of music to validate 2 CDs is unrealistic. This has triggered me to my core and the sole reason I am posting here  Some of those short songs have BRILLIANT lyrics. Garden of Eden is one of their most underrated songs.

[Samsara]

This notion that the short songs are inherently less worthy than others is ridiculous imo, as is the idea that the albums should have been released far apart. You have your entire lives to digest 30 songs and the sales and charts prove a simultaneous release wasn't a hindrance to their success. The implication that it has to be one of if not the the biggest release in the history of music to validate 2 CDs is unrealistic. This has triggered me to my core and the sole reason I am posting here  Some of those short songs have BRILLIANT lyrics. Garden of Eden is one of their most underrated songs.

SOME of the real short tracks are good. Others just seem like demos. I don't think any length of track is the tell-all for a song's worthiness.

"Perfect Crime" is cool for sure. But what's the point of "You Ain't the First?" I mean, that's ridiculous. Not necessary.

"Garden of Eden" is in the same boat for me as "Perfect Crime." Dig it.

"My World" from Illusion II is absolutely pointless and dumb.

But there you have it -- two tracks that have no point to them. Total demo crap.

And there are some songs on both records that really lack in quality in comparison to the others. The comparison to Metallica's Load and Re-Load is apt for sure.

[Dave_Manchester]

Personally I love 'You Ain't The First', it sounds like a couple of guys sitting in a dorm room playing an angry tune on a cheap acoustic guitar about an event that happened to one of them 10 minutes ago. The twist being, it's one of the biggest bands on the planet playing it who have November Rain coming right up. It's such an intimate song by that most monolithic of bands. 

And for the record (since it's come up more than once), I love every track on Load and Reload too. Even the 'weaker' tunes have a special place in my heart.

I think a lot of this stuff comes down to the music we grew up with and what the soundtrack of our formative years was. The UYIs and Load/Reload are 4 such albums for me.

[The Walrus]

you ain't the first is fantastic so... hell it was one of the first songs i learned to play on guitar and it's catchy as hell. it's not a hard song to understand.

my world does have a point, it was something axl wanted to put on the record so he did. i don't think it's good whatsoever but to say any of these songs 'don't have a point' is absurd. all 30 of these songs have a message, but you're free to dislike 'em

[TAC]

You'd toss out Double Talkin' Jive and Breakdown? Yikes! The latter in particular is one of their very finest moments.

Never, ever liked DTJ. I admit I don't remember at all Breakdown however. I picked the songs that I'm definitively sure I like.

DTJ is freaking awesome. Slash's solo is incredible.

[Stadler]

The other point worth making:  Axl takes a lot of shit for the variety on these records, but the reality is, there is a LOT of Izzy Stradlin on these records.   I think on UYI I, he writes or co-writes 8 of the 16 songs (Rose writes or co-writes 11 of the 16).  Rose has a much bigger presence on UYI II, but Izzy still has more writing inputs than Slash.

[DoctorAction]

These boys came out when I was a young teen. They were amazing at the time. The fuck-you attitude, material and playing was something. The UYI albums were fine. Some great songs. Some filler.

I've hated them for decades now. I never ever listen to them. I dunno what it is about them. It's making me annoyed just thinking about them. Axl's shitty screeching sucks butt. As an act, they've not aged well and can fuck right off. But then, they're still HUGE. It's not them, it's me? Gah...

OK, you could be mine, double taking jive are really cool tracks. There are others. Dammit, I hate myself for saying that. I can't continue. The wankers...

[WildRanger]

You'd toss out Double Talkin' Jive and Breakdown? Yikes! The latter in particular is one of their very finest moments.

Never, ever liked DTJ. I admit I don't remember at all Breakdown however. I picked the songs that I'm definitively sure I like.

DTJ is freaking awesome. Slash's solo is incredible.

Live version is much better, with long Slash's solo, homage to Hendrix.

[Cintus Supremus]

I've tried whittling the songs down to a single album, but I can't do it. There's too many good songs on there. So I'd rather have two albums full of mostly good/great material over a single album full of only good/great material.

[WildRanger]

Musically the only bad song from both UYI albums is My World IMO.
All other songs are either good, great or forgettable, but forgettable does not mean BAD.

[bosk1]

I will just restate this:

nothing is wrong with these albums

This.  I don't know of many "rock fans" that "look down on" the Use Your Illusion albums.  Yeah, there may be a minority that thought GnR "sold out" and went commercial after the rawness of Appetite, or a few who were mad about personnel changes, or whatever.  As usual, you state a "fact" to try to make your argument that isn't even true.   

There is nothing wrong with these albums, and as the discussion in this thread has mostly born out, most fans of the band either actively like these albums, or at least don't actively dislike them.  For me personally, I was never a really big GnR fan.  I went though a brief phase where I liked some of Appetite.  And the songs I heard from the UYI albums were mostly pretty good too.  I am pretty sure that, at one point or another, I have heard most if not all of both disks a few times, and my reaction is the same:  It's not bad.  I hold that music in the same regard as Appetite.  If I were a bigger GnR fan, I'm sure I would like them more.  But I have never thought, "eh, these aren't as good as Appetite, so the band shouldn't have even bothered."  The whole premise of this thread is just completely off base.

[Cruithne]

The other point worth making:  Axl takes a lot of shit for the variety on these records, but the reality is, there is a LOT of Izzy Stradlin on these records.   I think on UYI I, he writes or co-writes 8 of the 16 songs (Rose writes or co-writes 11 of the 16).  Rose has a much bigger presence on UYI II, but Izzy still has more writing inputs than Slash.

A large part of my caution about any future Guns albums is the lack of Izzy. It strikes me he played a similar role in the band as Steve Clark did for Def Leppard, DeGarmo (more so...) for Queensryche, to a lesser extent Adrian Smith for Iron Maiden, and so on... People who not only write/wrote great material but who reliably contributed a bit of fairy dust to arrangements that're not necessarily that obvious until they're not there anymore and you find yourself wondering why songs are a bit flat sounding these days.