What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?

[WildRanger]

So many rock fans say that GnR have made one classic and relevant album - Appetite for Destruction and they generally look down on Use Your Illuision (I and II) albums.
Why are those albums not more highly regarded? What was WRONG with them from a musical point?

[Adami]

Good amount of filler is my only complaint.

Condense them into one album and you got a classic.

[Kotowboy]

Double albums are always frowned upon - except in very rare cases.

Just look and Load and Reload.

[twosuitsluke]

The obvious answer is that they are Guns 'n Roses albums























Yea, I'm not a fan

[MirrorMask]

You wan'da step into my world
It's a sociopsychotic state of bliss
You've been delayed in the real world
How many times have you hit and missed?
Your cat-scan shows disfiguration
I want to laugh myself to death
With a misfired synapse
With a bent configuration
I'll hold the line while you gasp for breath
You want to talk to me
So talk to me
You want to talk to me (7x)
You can't talk to me
You don't understand your sex
You ain't been mindfucked yet
Let's do it (3x)
Oh my distorted smile
Guess what I'm doing now

[WildRanger]

Double albums are always frowned upon - except in very rare cases.

Just look and Load and Reload.

The Who - Quad; Tommy
Physical Graffiti - Led Zeppelin (a lot of rock fans would claim it's the best Zep album)
The Beatles - White Album
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Rolling Stones - Exile on Main St.
Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
The Clash - London Calling (widely regarded as their best album)
Smashing Pumpkis - Mellon Collie & the Infinite Sadness
Jimi Hendrix Experience - Electric Ladyland
Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (it's widely regarded as his best album)
Prince - Sign 'o' the Time

All those double albums are very highly regarded and considered classics.

[pg1067]

Why are those albums not more highly regarded? What was WRONG with them from a musical point?

They feature Axl Rose "singing."

The Who - Quad; Tommy
Physical Graffiti - Led Zeppelin (a lot of rock fans would claim it's the best Zep album)
The Beatles - White Album
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Rolling Stones - Exile on Main St.
Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
The Clash - London Calling (widely regarded as their best album)
Smashing Pumpkis - Mellon Collie & the Infinite Sadness
Jimi Hendrix Experience - Electric Ladyland
Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road (it's widely regarded as his best album)
Prince - Sign 'o' the Time

All those double albums are very highly regarded and considered classics.

Quadrophenia is an album that may be loved by hardcore fans, but it is largely unknown to casual fans (without looking up the track list, I can only think of two songs, and one of them I might not even know but for a cover version by WASP).

And I've never heard of anyone refer to The Lamb as a "classic."  It was innovative and had a song that became a staple of the band's live set, but it weighed down by massive amounts of filler...as is Tommy...and as is the White Album (the king of filler albums).

As for Physical Graffiti, here you got again with the weasel words:  "[A] lot of rock fans would claim it's the best Zep album."  Well...sure.  When you say it that way, you can't help but be correct.  But I'd bet more "rock fans" would disagree, and I know plenty of "rock fans" and Zeppelin fans who find PG to be quite bloated and think it would be better as a single album.

[Kotowboy]

I think the best "double" albums of recent memory are albums that are only double because the artist says so - but they actually would fit on one CD.

• Metallica - Hardwired to Self Destruct - 2 CDs of music - but overall 77.6 minutes.

• Biffy Clyro - Opposites. 2 CDs of music - but overall 77.6 minutes.

Load and Reload are almost a quadruple album with 27 tracks and 2.5 hours of music !

[The Walrus]

nothing is wrong with these albums

[Adami]

nothing is wrong with these albums

Heyyyyyyyy!

[Phoenix87x]

Good amount of filler is my only complaint.

Condense them into one album and you got a classic.

Bingo

[faizoff]

nothing is wrong with these albums

I'm only in this thread for this reply from this guy.

[Elite]

The obvious answer is that they are Guns 'n Roses albums

Yeah this.

nothing is wrong with these albums

what the hell

[Evermind]

Leave it to WildRanger of all people to summon Katt back here.

[Kotowboy]

I'm not a GNR fan - I couldn't get into Appetite. Wrong era probably. I left it way too late and only gave it a listen LAST YEAR.

Not my style of rock.

Moreover - how big a letdown was Chinese Democracy ? For fans of the band ? I did have a good chuckle at the credits in the booklet at just how many people

produced or engineered the album.

[The Walrus]

Moreover - how big a letdown was Chinese Democracy ? For fans of the band ? I did have a good chuckle at the credits in the booklet at just how many people

produced or engineered the album.

nothing is wrong with this album

[TAC]

So many rock fans say that GnR have made one classic and relevant album - Appetite for Destruction and they generally look down on Use Your Illuision (I and II) albums.
Why are those albums not more highly regarded? What was WRONG with them from a musical point?

Well, it depends how you define "rock fans". To me, "rock fans" seems pretty general, and I picture those "I like everything" kinds of people. If so, Appetite had the biggest hits, so there's that.
And Appetite IS classic and relevant.



But who exactly looks down on the Illusion albums? Look, they are not the "moment in time" album that Appetite is, but they are both phenomenal pieces of music. They are also in a slightly different style too. The songs are much bigger, complex than the classic barroom rock that Appetite is.

And just because you can sift through the double album and make a great single album doesn't detract from the strength of each of them.

Those albums were huge. The band toured for over 3 years straight on them. Now one may associate that era with the douchiness of Axel, so that may taint how they view the band, but musically those albums are great.

[Dave_Manchester]

Love both the Use Your Illusion albums (far more so than Appetite for Destruction) and I wouldn't change anything about them.  The same goes for Chinese Democracy too, since that came up. I think it's a very original album that showcases the full range of Axl Rose's creativity (I pretty much think of it as Use Your Illusion III for this reason). Appetite for Destruction is certainly a great rock album but I don't think it has anywhere near the originality of the Use Your Illusions or Chinese Democracy. Just my opinion, natch.

[Kotowboy]

No album should take Eighteen Years though.

What was the official reason ? Laziness ? Revolving door of musicians ? Kept aborting the sessions ? Members quitting / going to rehab ?

All of the above ?

[Dave_Manchester]

I think things take as long as the artist feels they should take. Stanley Kubrick made just 2 films in the last 18 years of his life. Thomas Harris (Silence of the Lambs guy) has written 6 novels in 45 years. People work at different paces for different reasons. What's important isn't keeping to a schedule but producing something they're happy with.


edit: but as for the 'official reason' for why it took so long, as far as I know it was just because he didn't feel like it. From interviews I've read he seems to work in fitful bursts of inspiration which are separated by lengthy periods of having nothing to say, musically.

[Kotowboy]

I sometimes wonder how bands take that long to do anything and still live. Tool didn't play live all that often.

Lateralus and 10,000 Days were hardly gigantic selling albums. I know Maynard had Puscifer etc

But Danny and Justin didn't really do much in those 13 years.

[Dave_Manchester]

With Tool, they still had about 12 million album sales before the post-10,000 Days hiatus, which is pretty decent money. And those guys seem smart so they probably invested it well.

As for the likes of Axl, he was loaded. 30 million sales for Appetite alone, another 15 million for the Use Your Illusions, about 250 for The Spaghetti Incident. That buys a lot of time to tweak a guitar solo here and there.

[BelichickFan]

I'm a big fan of Illusion and Chinese.  Maybe a track or two (My World) I could have done without but with digital media now, that's doable.  Some of the tracks like Prostitute (from Chinese), Coma, Locomotive and Estranged are incredible classics.

I only have one complaint about GnR; Axl is the biggest waste of talent ever, only having one real album out since the Illusions 30 years ago.  Wish he'd get everything recorded and out because I love everything he does.

[Kotowboy]

When was Chinese Democracy ? 2008 ? Same year as Death Magnetic.

Even Metallica have put out an album since then.

How many albums has Dream Theater put out since 2008 ? Or Mastodon ? Or Trivium ? And it's not like those bands rush out average albums either.

Two albums in 30 (!!) years is kinda pathetic.

[Dave_Manchester]

I'm a big fan of Illusion and Chinese.  Maybe a track or two (My World) I could have done without but with digital media now, that's doable.  Some of the tracks like Prostitute (from Chinese), Coma, Locomotive and Estranged are incredible classics.

I only have one complaint about GnR; Axl is the biggest waste of talent ever, only having one real album out since the Illusions 30 years ago.  Wish he'd get everything recorded and out because I love everything he does.

'Prostitute' is a favourite of mine too. Very powerful and 'beautiful' (by GnR standards) song.

[Stadler]

I know for me (who DOES think Physical Graffiti is the best Zeppelin album), the knock I have on the UYI albums is only the way they are presented.  If it truly WAS a double album, and not a sort of simultaneous release of two different albums, it would resonate more with me.   The high points (of which there are too many to name) of UYI far exceed the highs of Appetite, even if the one or two lows are probably the lowest.    I saw that tour (as well as the Chinese Democracy tour) and it was something special. 

Controversial statement:  Rose is a polarizing figure to be sure, but I've certainly seen artists who are a LOT more well-loved who couldn't or didn't perform to the level that Axl did the two times I saw him.  The latter show, he sang for three hours straight at a high level, the only extended break during Dizzy's piano solo spot.  It's one of the best vocal performances I've ever seen.  Show started at 11:00 on the nose, I left at 2:15 and he was still going (I missed one song, as it turned out).

[bosk1]

nothing is wrong with these albums

This.  I don't know of many "rock fans" that "look down on" the Use Your Illusion albums.  Yeah, there may be a minority that thought GnR "sold out" and went commercial after the rawness of Appetite, or a few who were mad about personnel changes, or whatever.  As usual, you state a "fact" to try to make your argument that isn't even true.   

[The Curious Orange]

I always loved the UTI albums. Yes, there's some filler on there, but not that much of it, to be honest, and certainly not as much as people claim. I played those albums to death back in the day.
Chinese Democracy was never going to live up to the weight of expectation put on it, but it's actually a pretty good album. I enjoyed it. If they'd have released it 15 years before they did, it would have been heralded as a masterpiece.

[Stadler]

I always loved the UTI albums. Yes, there's some filler on there, but not that much of it, to be honest, and certainly not as much as people claim. I played those albums to death back in the day.
Chinese Democracy was never going to live up to the weight of expectation put on it, but it's actually a pretty good album. I enjoyed it. If they'd have released it 15 years before they did, it would have been heralded as a masterpiece.

Haha.



Chinese Democracy always baffled me; more correctly, the REACTION always baffled me.  In some ways it's what every fan SAYS they want, but I think secretly doesn't.  How many posts are there here that lament that SC or SC&SL are stale and they should have done something new.  How many people complain that AC/DC "all sounds the same".   Or Ozzy, retreading old ground over and over.  Well, Axl did something unique and new, and....   "it wasn't Appetite".    I wouldn't say it's MY favorite album of all time, but it's a great album in it's own way. 

[kirksnosehair]

*shrug*


The only thing mentioned in this thread that I don't like it Load and Reload by Metallica.  I never "got" that era of the band. 

[Lowdz]

It was two albums. Too much shit.

[hefdaddy42]

So many rock fans say that GnR have made one classic and relevant album - Appetite for Destruction and they generally look down on Use Your Illuision (I and II) albums.
Why are those albums not more highly regarded? What was WRONG with them from a musical point?

Where do you get this shit?



I only "look down" on them from the perspective of Appetite, which I find better in every way.  Also, between the two albums, there is about one album's worth of incredible songs, so way too much filler for my taste.

But there's nothing WRONG with them.

I have never listened to Chinese Democracy, so I can't give an informed opinion.

[Stadler]

So many rock fans say that GnR have made one classic and relevant album - Appetite for Destruction and they generally look down on Use Your Illuision (I and II) albums.
Why are those albums not more highly regarded? What was WRONG with them from a musical point?

Where do you get this shit?



I only "look down" on them from the perspective of Appetite, which I find better in every way.  Also, between the two albums, there is about one album's worth of incredible songs, so way too much filler for my taste.

But there's nothing WRONG with them.

I have never listened to Chinese Democracy, so I can't give an informed opinion.

He was talking to a guy named Somani Rockphans.  He said it. 

[hefdaddy42]

So many rock fans say that GnR have made one classic and relevant album - Appetite for Destruction and they generally look down on Use Your Illuision (I and II) albums.
Why are those albums not more highly regarded? What was WRONG with them from a musical point?

Where do you get this shit?



I only "look down" on them from the perspective of Appetite, which I find better in every way.  Also, between the two albums, there is about one album's worth of incredible songs, so way too much filler for my taste.

But there's nothing WRONG with them.

I have never listened to Chinese Democracy, so I can't give an informed opinion.

He was talking to a guy named Somani Rockphans.  He said it. 

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

nothing is wrong with these albums

Hey man, good to see you back.

I knew this thread would bring you back from lurking