Steven Wilson solo career thread - v. The Harmony Codex in 2023!

[King Postwhore]

At least in my circles Kraftwerk was not popular at all.  I'm 53 and grew up in the late 70's and 80's for music.

Sure I'd read their name in magazines but never heard their music back then.

It may have been different in Europe though.

[Max Kuehnau]

At least in my circles Kraftwerk was not popular at all.  I'm 53 and grew up in the late 70's and 80's for music.

Sure I'd read their name in magazines but never heard their music back then.

It may have been different in Europe though.

very much different IMHO, at least in Germany and in France. They were pioneers.

[King Postwhore]

At least in my circles Kraftwerk was not popular at all.  I'm 53 and grew up in the late 70's and 80's for music.

Sure I'd read their name in magazines but never heard their music back then.

It may have been different in Europe though.

very much different IMHO, at least in Germany and in France. They were pioneers.

And I did read that later on.  Funny how some bands do not translate in other countries.  A band m=now I love that only toured the States once is "The Feeling."

[twosuitsluke]

I think at this point, him making a prog rock album next would feel like him giving up and throwing in the towel to cater to the fans. I didn't necessarily think TFB was amazing or anything (but then again neither was the couple of albums before it) but I'll gladly take an artist doing something that makes them excited than doing what the fans want. That's always a creative graveyard in my opinion.

So, by this logic if Steven Wilson makes his next album a recording of the sound of him scratching his nuts you'll "gladly take" that over a new album of actual music because he might have made the music to please the fans?


I find that mindset utterly baffling.


I'm the consumer.  I'm not his sugar daddy.  If he doesn't put out a product I like, then I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut how much he enjoys yodeling into a microphone over electronic noises I ain't gonna spend my hard-earned money on it just because HE enjoyed making it.   I'm not paying him for HIS enjoyment, I'm paying him for MY enjoyment.

I'm totally with Zantera on this. I find that the moment artists start to just put out music to please the majority of fans, then their heart isn't in it and the music suffers. I'd always rather a band follow their creative flow, even if it upsets some fans. As long as they are invested in it and want to evolve their sound, that's all that matters.

I know I've brought up Devin Townsend in this thread previously, but he is the perfect example. If he did what a lot his 'fans' from his Strapping Young Lad days (who are generally living in the past, and pretty one dimensional) want him to do, then he'd still just be releasing extreme metal albums, and hating every minute of it. We'd never have received a sci fi rock opera about an alien coming to earth to acquire the ultimate cup of coffee! Devin does exactly what he wants and follows his passion. Do I love it all, no. Do I appreciate it all for what it is, yes. I'd much rather he do that then try to re create old albums. Fuck that.

Kirksnosehair, I can't help but read your post and assume you are trolling, as I find it baffling that you would just want him to retread old ground and resign to putting out prog rock albums,in a style that has been done to death. You are joking right?

[King Postwhore]

No he's serious.  He's never been one to joke around like myself.  Sometimes people have strong opinions that don't align with other's taste. I'm bwith you that a musician makes the music he or she wants to but it doesn't mean the fanbase will follow.  That is evident with Rush fans.  The "heads" from the early days wish Rush stayed at 2112.  Some call Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures sellouts.  Some do not like the keyboard era.  Some like me followed it all.

[ErHaO]

At least in my circles Kraftwerk was not popular at all.  I'm 53 and grew up in the late 70's and 80's for music.

Sure I'd read their name in magazines but never heard their music back then.

It may have been different in Europe though.

I think there for sure are bound to be some (big) differences between the EU and the US (and between EU countries) on that front.

I know quite a bit of "old" folks well into their 50's that have always been fans of electronic music (as broad as that term is, because offcourse electronic music covers a loooot of genres and subgenres). Especially disco. When shopping vinyl, some stores have large sections of 70's-80's electronic records in their used stands.

[Zantera]

I think one reason so many people seem to like HCE so much is because its the most like a PT album out of his solo albums. And I think that's partially a reason he's moved away from that style because if that's what he wanted to do, he could just have stayed with PT.

The Future Bites feels closer to Insurgentes, or parts of Grace where it's something very different for SW and I think this is why he wanted to go solo in the first place. The freedom to do whatever.

[King Postwhore]

Absolutely.  Not confined to one style.  I look at it like Bowie.  Some albums I loved more than others in his discography.  I never knew what was next from him.  Always moving musically.

[Kram]

For me personally Wilson's music is upper tier when talking prog/rock artists and not quite there when talking electronics,

I think this is a good point. While I applaud him for not staying stagnate and trying new things.  IMO, he does prog rock REALLY well.  Other styles, not so much.

[kirksnosehair]

I think at this point, him making a prog rock album next would feel like him giving up and throwing in the towel to cater to the fans. I didn't necessarily think TFB was amazing or anything (but then again neither was the couple of albums before it) but I'll gladly take an artist doing something that makes them excited than doing what the fans want. That's always a creative graveyard in my opinion.

So, by this logic if Steven Wilson makes his next album a recording of the sound of him scratching his nuts you'll "gladly take" that over a new album of actual music because he might have made the music to please the fans?


I find that mindset utterly baffling.


I'm the consumer.  I'm not his sugar daddy.  If he doesn't put out a product I like, then I don't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut how much he enjoys yodeling into a microphone over electronic noises I ain't gonna spend my hard-earned money on it just because HE enjoyed making it.   I'm not paying him for HIS enjoyment, I'm paying him for MY enjoyment.

But you don't have to pay for the product if it's not something you want though. There's been albums where it felt like the heart and soul wasn't in it and perhaps it was made to please the fans or keep the ball rolling, and it always feels quite clear to me. The Incident has that feel, whether intentional or not - I wouldn't say it's a bad album, but it came out at a time when PT had pretty much reached their end creatively, SW had already started on solo stuff and no matter what album you prefer, Insurgentes just feels like much more of a passion project that he had his soul into than The Incident.

Like I said earlier about The Future Bites, I don't particularly feel that strong about it either way (same as To the Bone and HCE) but it's interesting to hear him try new things and not be treading waters as an artist. There's plenty of bands and artists who keep putting out the same album over and over for 20-30-40 years and it's refreshing with the ones who have higher ambitions or show the courage to try new things. SW could easily stick to putting out prog album after prog album and worship the 70s bands and a lot of people would eat that up but he has the potential for more.

I always thought it was weird around Raven's release when people started talking about SW as a master musician following his least original album that pretty much ripped off what others did better 40 years earlier. At least with albums like To the Bone and Future Bites he's trying to do new things for himself and it's not all perfect but it's a lot more admirable than Raven part 2 or HCE part 2.

2 things:


1. I am sorry for the tone of that post.  I won't edit it, because then this apology won't mean anything but reading it back it came across like I was berating you and I did not intend it that way so I am sorry if you were taken aback by it. 


2. What I meant to say is this:  I have no problem whatsoever with ANY artist who wants to try new things and branch out into different styles and such.  Hell, one of my all-time favorite metal guys from back in the day was Gary Moore and imagine my surprise when he literally flipped a switch and stopped doing metal albums and started doing straight up blues albums.  I was fucking HORRIFIED!     But eventually I started buying some of his blues albums and while I think he had a tendency to overplay his blues solos a little bit, he wrote some great, great songs.


So, I don't really have a problem with bands changing what they do, but just because I'm a fan of ____________________ doesn't mean I am going to just buy up everything they release until death do us part.  The day Dream Theater releases a Beer Barrel Polka album is the day I climb down off the bandwagon.  Now as far as Steven Wilson goes, as I've mentioned in many places I have no use for about 80% of his output, but for a while there it seemed like he was moving in a direction that I REALLY liked a lot.  The Raven was the first solo album of his that I actually enjoyed and could listen to start to finish without having to skip through any of it.  Hand.Cannot.Erase. was even better and then To The Bone was a bit of a jump down in terms of my enjoyment but if he had stayed on this trajectory I may have come along for the ride, but this new style where he sings in falsetto over electronic noises?  Nope. Sorry.  Hard pass.  It's not for me.

Now that DOES NOT mean I want him to keep making HCE or TRWRTS over and over.  But see, the thing is, I don't listen to Steven Wilson because I like falsetto vocals over electronic noise.  I listen to (some) Steven Wilson because he has the ability to write music that I could connect with.  Falsetto over electronica?  If you asked me to think of the worst case scenario for a change in styles, this comes pretty damned close.  I am, frankly, flabbergasted that anyone likes any of it.

[jammindude]

“Well I know they’ve always told you selfishness was wrong.
Yet it was for me, not you, I came to write this song.”

- Neil Peart (RIP)

[KevShmev]

I get where most are coming from here.  As a fan, of course you want artists to release music you like, but even though I have no problem saying, "I wish this band would have done this or that" , ultimately artists shouldn't give a damn about what I or any other fans want when it comes to creating their art.  There is something exciting and fun about following an artist that has a new release coming out and knowing it could be something different or surprising. Some of my favorite albums ever are ones that threw me off at first because of how different they were than what came before them (Awake and Promised Land are two great examples), which can take some adjusting.

[kirksnosehair]

Can't say I agree with that at all.  I give a whole bunch of damns whether or not the fans enjoy my work.  I certainly ain't making music to piss people off or make them not want to buy my next album so whole I get the while "critics be damned" thing and I even support that, I think ultimately I am creating a product and hopefully a product that people not only like but would want to hear more of it.  I have worked with novices and professionals alike I can tell you with 100% certainty that every artist I've ever worked with who was putting out original music was absolutely definitely positively without a shred of a doubt hoping that the fans like it.   

[KevShmev]

To clarify, of course the artists want fans to like their work, but that doesn't mean they should let what they think the fans might or might not like affect their decision making when it comes to the completion or a song or album.  That is what I mean, and more in a big picture kind of way.  To repeat a point I have made a few times over the years, I think it was Rudess or Portnoy who said how cool it was to do Liquid Dreams on the LTE2 album since that was, in their words, "a song we could never have done in Dream Theater." Why the hell not? It is your band! You can do anything you want.

[Ben_Jamin]

I get where most are coming from here.  As a fan, of course you want artists to release music you like, but even though I have no problem saying, "I wish this band would have done this or that" , ultimately artists shouldn't give a damn about what I or any other fans want when it comes to creating their art.  There is something exciting and fun about following an artist that has a new release coming out and knowing it could be something different or surprising. Some of my favorite albums ever are ones that threw me off at first because of how different they were than what came before them (Awake and Promised Land are two great examples), which can take some adjusting.

It's a main reason why I don't really expect anything from a bands new release. I do have speculations based on what they say, like Mangini's comments. But, I don't really expect those speculations to come to fruition from the band.

For me, I'm a concept guy, and pretty much enjoy any concept album. I have enjoyed most of what I have listened to. I enjoy The Future Bites, because of the way Stephen utilized the electronic elements while showing his influences with Prince, and the 80's pop. This plays well into the Robotic Consumerism the concept is about. The rhythms, and grooves, I also like.

I do not get this enjoyment from Insurgentes or Grace For Drowning. I do like the songs on those albums, but as a whole I can't listen to them. And that is due to how the album as a whole feels, and the tone gives off. Nothing wrong with the songs themselves.

Can't say I agree with that at all.  I give a whole bunch of damns whether or not the fans enjoy my work.  I certainly ain't making music to piss people off or make them not want to buy my next album so whole I get the while "critics be damned" thing and I even support that, I think ultimately I am creating a product and hopefully a product that people not only like but would want to hear more of it.  I have worked with novices and professionals alike I can tell you with 100% certainty that every artist I've ever worked with who was putting out original music was absolutely definitely positively without a shred of a doubt hoping that the fans like it.   

Oh yeah, I have had many great conversations with band members at their merch tables before. They are always pleased to get that acknowledgement at the shows they play. Some of the cd's I have I bought at the shows after the band played their set. I let them know I liked their set, and try to remember what part of the set I liked and ask them what the song was called. Usually, they'll point to the album if they have it, and I'll buy those ones. I am sure, if they would've came back more this way, I would've got to know them more and get acquainted with them. It's neat seeing bands go from the little venue here where I can easily do this, to the next big venue where it's harder, and just grow from there.

[Ben_Jamin]

To clarify, of course the artists want fans to like their work, but that doesn't mean they should let what they think the fans might or might not like affect their decision making when it comes to the completion or a song or album.  That is what I mean, and more in a big picture kind of way.  To repeat a point I have made a few times over the years, I think it was Rudess or Portnoy who said how cool it was to do Liquid Dreams on the LTE2 album since that was, in their words, "a song we could never have done in Dream Theater." Why the hell not? It is your band! You can do anything you want.

There could be many reasons. Label wise, and even something like them having that..."This riff isn't really Dream Theater to me" mentality. And I think that is JP's mentality, but for all we know it could be JM's mentality also, that's why he's the ninja. 

I agree though, a band shouldn't give a damn about what their fans think about their music. but, they're not stupid and know that the music listener or "fans" do not think that way at all, and would feel betrayed and forsaken if they were to go completely off the rails. One great example is Opeth.

Also, Liquid Dreams is one of my Faves.

[KevShmev]

There could be many reasons. Label wise, and even something like them having that..."This riff isn't really Dream Theater to me" mentality. And I think that is JP's mentality, but for all we know it could be JM's mentality also, that's why he's the ninja. 

I agree though, a band shouldn't give a damn about what their fans think about their music. but, they're not stupid and know that the music listener or "fans" do not think that way at all, and would feel betrayed and forsaken if they were to go completely off the rails. One great example is Opeth.

Also, Liquid Dreams is one of my Faves.

Yep, making music is a business, I get it.  No one wants to be a starving artist yelling, "But I get to do whatever I want, and I don't care what anyone thinks!"

And to reiterate, in case I didn't word my posts as well as I could have, I am not saying bands should not give a damn what the fans think. I am saying bands should not let what the fans want dictate their artistic direction.

[Buddyhunter1]

I am not saying bands should not give a damn what the fans think. I am saying bands should not let what the fans want dictate their artistic direction.

[Dedalus]

I am not saying bands should not give a damn what the fans think. I am saying bands should not let what the fans want dictate their artistic direction.

This. The first time I heard The Astonishing I thought "hmm, they are going to be criticized a lot". If I knew that, evidently John Petrucci did too, after all he is not stupid. But that didn't stop him from making the record he wanted to make.

If I were an artist and my fans said that they are paying me and for that I need to deliver what they want, I would say "where do you think you are, in a brothel? If you don't like my work, don't buy it and stop piss me off. " Fortunately I am not an artist and I have no fans. 

Of course we as fans complain when we don't like it, we do that. For example, I regret that the Haken I met via The Mountain became the band that it is today. But this is my problem, not Haken's. If Haken became a band that I don't like and I don't expect anything else, there are a lot of people happy and enjoying the sound they are making.

[Buddyhunter1]

I think one reason so many people seem to like HCE so much is because its the most like a PT album out of his solo albums.

The solo album that sounds the most like a PT album to me is Insurgentes, actually. There's not really a single song on there that'd sound super out of place on a post-Lightbulb Sun PT album. HCE does have a lot of parts that remind me of PT but there's still a lot of aggressive 70s elements leftover from the previous album.

[Fritzinger]

I think one reason so many people seem to like HCE so much is because its the most like a PT album out of his solo albums.

The solo album that sounds the most like a PT album to me is Insurgentes, actually. There's not really a single song on there that'd sound super out of place on a post-Lightbulb Sun PT album. HCE does have a lot of parts that remind me of PT but there's still a lot of aggressive 70s elements leftover from the previous album.

That interesting. I always thought Insurgentes would be too drone-influenced/experimental to be a PT album. But the drumming reminds of PT (duh). But Abandoner or Salvaging would be super out of place on most post-Lightbulb Sun albums in my opinion.

I think, apart from Permanating and the jazzy/fusiony guitar solo in Detonation, To The Bone is actually not that far away from albums like In Absentia, Stupid Dream and Lightbulb Sun.

[kirksnosehair]

There could be many reasons. Label wise, and even something like them having that..."This riff isn't really Dream Theater to me" mentality. And I think that is JP's mentality, but for all we know it could be JM's mentality also, that's why he's the ninja. 

I agree though, a band shouldn't give a damn about what their fans think about their music. but, they're not stupid and know that the music listener or "fans" do not think that way at all, and would feel betrayed and forsaken if they were to go completely off the rails. One great example is Opeth.

Also, Liquid Dreams is one of my Faves.

Yep, making music is a business, I get it.  No one wants to be a starving artist yelling, "But I get to do whatever I want, and I don't care what anyone thinks!"

And to reiterate, in case I didn't word my posts as well as I could have, I am not saying bands should not give a damn what the fans think. I am saying bands should not let what the fans want dictate their artistic direction.

On that we agree.  They should not let the fans dictate their artistic direction.   


But by the same token they should not be surprised when they make 10 "rock and roll" records in a row then receive a negative response from some fans after releasing album #11 as an "accordion and tuba disco" album.

[Zantera]

I feel like when it comes down to it, people for the most part only mind the changing of styles if they don't like the direction it goes in. There's other bands like Anathema or Opeth who have changed styles and some have been upset by it but it's also gained them a lot of new fans.

[King Postwhore]

That's normal though for any band with longevity.  Some fans jump ship.  Other join the ship with the style change.  Some stick around.

[kirksnosehair]

It's a risk for established artists like Opeth.  I don't know what the record sales have been like for them, but it would be interesting to see what kind of impact the change from Death Metal to Retro Prog had on their album sales.  I stuck around with Opeth because, yes, I do like the direction they went in.


Steven Wilson...completely different animal.  I have no use for the bulk of his music anyway.  The thing that's disappointing to me is the fact that he made 3 records in a row that I thought were excellent, excellent and good.  That's The Raven, Hand.Cannot.Erase and To The Bone respectively.  The first two are awesome, the third one is decent.  Now he's back to making music I have absolutely no use for.  I had hoped he'd keep going with the kind of thing he was doing especially with HCE, which is my favorite of those three.  In fact, to me that's his best solo album.  But I guess he's done with guitar now, so I'm done with him.

[Zantera]

That's the cool thing with opinions, for me personally HCE is probably my least favorite solo album of his. Just feels like another PT album and aside from Routine, a lot of the tracks have that 'been there done that before' feeling. The Future Bites is interesting because it's different but ultimately there's not too many standouts on it that reach SW's highest tier of songs. (Then again I have that same issue with To the Bone and HCE)

[KevShmev]

I feel like when it comes down to it, people for the most part only mind the changing of styles if they don't like the direction it goes in. There's other bands like Anathema or Opeth who have changed styles and some have been upset by it but it's also gained them a lot of new fans.

Very true.  There are still fans of their 90's music who are still pissing and moaning about the direction Radiohead took with Kid A, but for those who loved the quick left turn they made, and there were a lot of people in that category, it made them even more awesome, and even though OK Computer remains their most iconic and biggest selling album, their popularity didn't suffer over the long haul. 

[Ben_Jamin]

The Nile Rodgers Remix of Personal Shopper is better than the album version.

A bit more Funk added in makes it more Groovy and makes me want to dance more. Reminds me of Rick James now.

[hefdaddy42]

The Nile Rodgers Remix of Personal Shopper is better than the album version.

A bit more Funk added in makes it more Groovy and makes me want to dance more. Reminds me of Rick James now.

Any Niles Rodgers remix of anything is likely better than the album version.

[Ben_Jamin]

The Nile Rodgers Remix of Personal Shopper is better than the album version.

A bit more Funk added in makes it more Groovy and makes me want to dance more. Reminds me of Rick James now.

Any Niles Rodgers remix of anything is likely better than the album version.

Of course. This album and Personal Shopper just called for it. And Steven is happy as well he did.

[KevShmev]

I like the album version of Personal Shopper, and really like the "Consumer of life..." bridge (classic SW vocal melodies there!), but I am not wild about the fact that this song takes up so much of the album running time.  Again, I like the song, but not as much as almost every other song on the album (plus a bunch of the extras).

Self, Man of the People and Follower are all still highly enjoyable, and I am really liking Count of Unease now.  12 Things I Forgot, of course, is nice as well. 

[twosuitsluke]

I think 12 Things I Forgot just clicked with me. I'm somewhat indifferent to the album, but this could be the beginning of me really enjoying it.

[KevShmev]

I think 12 Things I Forgot just clicked with me. I'm somewhat indifferent to the album, but this could be the beginning of me really enjoying it.

I think that is the easiest song to grab on to for fans who aren't wild about the album as a whole. It sounds like vintage SW, and without the electronics cosmetology.  I actually find I am listening to that one not as much as many others (counting all of the bonus songs), but I always go in waves with these things, and I am sure the cycle will come back around and it will be one I revisit often again sooner rather than later.

[nobloodyname]

A new interview, worth reading I think: https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/news/141351/

Interesting excerpt: I’m working on two albums. One of them, which will be out if not by the end of this year, then certainly early next year – which is a guitar record! – funnily enough, that’s not a solo record. That’s going to be a collaboration, but I can’t say who with at the moment. It’s much more of a guitar record.

[KevShmev]

*cues the talk that the guitar/collaboration record is a PT reunion*