Distance Over Time - TWO Years on...

[Ben_Jamin]

I get what you're saying, but that is a recent trend of wanting to stay within certain confines. It doesn't matter if the music is fast, slow, heavy, ballad, everything in the Mangini era has this general feel and mood and it's generally cold and serious, which is opposite to most of DT's first 8 or so albums, where there was a sense of fun and adventure, while showcasing many moods and emotions. As I said I think SC started that, but it's been a gradual shift, as I said, BC&SL was still plenty diverse.

And maybe, the band likes basking in that Cold and Serious mood and feel.

I don't know but, S2N has a sense of fun.

Oh, and Viper King is really cold and serious..

See, that's the irony. The one song that is not cold and serious is relegated to being a bonus track. I never said cold and serious is a bad thing, though, but it's the rule, not the exception these days in DT's music.

What do you mean by cold and serious?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

DARK MASTER WITHIN I WILL FIGHT FOR YOU

[geeeemo]

I think I like cold and serious. For me happy and fun isn't usually what I want from metal or rock.  But that is just me. 

Dark Master is a top 3!

[Ben_Jamin]

I think I like cold and serious. For me happy and fun isn't usually what I want from metal or rock.  But that is just me. 

Dark Master is a top 3!

Happy and Fun in Metal is fantastic, and energetic as all hell....Power Metal is this very definition of Fun and Happy in metal, but it's more Energetic and Uplifting. It's the anthem to Triumph.

Prog Rock, like Yes and Genesis, is usually melodic and use happy melodies, reminds me of Bob Ross and his happy little trees. 

Basically, Dream Theater uses the Metal Tone, in the guitars, bass, and drums. And adds in the Melodicness of Prog Rock, with the Keyboards. More so back then, as Kevin Moore, used a lot of those happy sounding tones. Until the next album, where he said, I am just using these tones, and no other tones. Now Awake, is the album I would consider to have that Cold and Serious sound.

[Stadler]

I think I like cold and serious. For me happy and fun isn't usually what I want from metal or rock.  But that is just me. 

Dark Master is a top 3!

Nothing you listen to makes you wish you were in a convertable screaming down the highway at 65 mph with the top down?   

[geeeemo]

I think I like cold and serious. For me happy and fun isn't usually what I want from metal or rock.  But that is just me. 

Dark Master is a top 3!

Nothing you listen to makes you wish you were in a convertable screaming down the highway at 65 mph with the top down?   

For me it is some sort of rebelliousness. It's safe rebellion. So, the music that gets my juices flowing is the edgier harder, or emotive where I can "get it out". I love to go screaming down the highway with that. Especially in spring. Those first few warm sunny days. My old favorite was...Roadhouse Blues by the Doors.

[darkshade]

I think I like cold and serious. For me happy and fun isn't usually what I want from metal or rock.  But that is just me. 

Dark Master is a top 3!

Happy and Fun in Metal is fantastic, and energetic as all hell....Power Metal is this very definition of Fun and Happy in metal, but it's more Energetic and Uplifting. It's the anthem to Triumph.

Prog Rock, like Yes and Genesis, is usually melodic and use happy melodies, reminds me of Bob Ross and his happy little trees. 

Basically, Dream Theater uses the Metal Tone, in the guitars, bass, and drums. And adds in the Melodicness of Prog Rock, with the Keyboards. More so back then, as Kevin Moore, used a lot of those happy sounding tones. Until the next album, where he said, I am just using these tones, and no other tones. Now Awake, is the album I would consider to have that Cold and Serious sound.

In some ways this is what I was getting at. I got into Dream Theater after already being into metal and rock music. They were more of a gateway band into the progressive and jazz world for me, but what kept me coming back years after getting into them as a teenager, was their approach of mixing metal with progressive and a bit of soloing. Now cut out most of the long soloing, they stick to the dark, serious tone to everything, but its not what I liked about Dream Theater in the first place.

Awake was a harder edged album, compared to what came before, but aside from a couple of songs, they weren't cold and serious, but had many moments of fun and moments of optimism among the darkness, and of course they were still heavy prog mode, too. I don't really see the band being cold and serious until Systematic Chaos... but BC&SL showed us that it was not to be that way, but then Portnoy left. DT12 was, to me, the biggest offender of this cold and serious approach, and part of it is the production.

In contrast, Train of Thought is not cold and serious, not even Vacant, while serious, is a beautiful melody. Train of Thought is kick ass. Metallica's 80s albums are heavy and riff laden, but I wouldn't call the music cold and serious, it is kick ass.

[nobloodyname]

I've been nodding along in agreement with several of your posts but I think you've lost me here. Awake (one of my bottom three DT albums) I'd say is incredibly "cold and serious". I'd add detached and aloof to that, too. None of that is inherently bad, it's just how I perceive the album. But! I'd also describe it as suffocating and oppressive.

Train of Thought, which is one of my top three DT albums, I'd absolutely describe as "cold and serious" but I don't find it "suffocating and oppressive".

It's incredible how albums can such an effect on us and how we can also arrive at such different viewpoints.

[Stadler]

I think I like cold and serious. For me happy and fun isn't usually what I want from metal or rock.  But that is just me. 

Dark Master is a top 3!

Nothing you listen to makes you wish you were in a convertable screaming down the highway at 65 mph with the top down?   

For me it is some sort of rebelliousness. It's safe rebellion. So, the music that gets my juices flowing is the edgier harder, or emotive where I can "get it out". I love to go screaming down the highway with that. Especially in spring. Those first few warm sunny days. My old favorite was...Roadhouse Blues by the Doors.

I love that time of year.   Aerosmith or the Stones are good choices (for me) for those days.   

[TAC]

My convertible music would be Accept.

[kirksnosehair]

In contrast, Train of Thought is not cold and serious

The first song is basically a fuck you to other musicians who have slagged Dream Theater
The next one is about the horrors of alcoholism
The third track is all about making sacrifices even when you don't want to
The fourth track is pretty much a fuck you to Mike Portnoy's stepfather, who was apparently an emotionally abusive prick
Vacant is very sad
Stream of Consciousness is a minor-key instrumental
In The Name of God is a screed against Islamic Terrorism


I'm not sure they could make a more cold and serious album if they tried? 

[hefdaddy42]

In contrast, Train of Thought is not cold and serious

The first song is basically a fuck you to other musicians who have slagged Dream Theater
The next one is about the horrors of alcoholism
The third track is all about making sacrifices even when you don't want to
The fourth track is pretty much a fuck you to Mike Portnoy's stepfather, who was apparently an emotionally abusive prick
Vacant is very sad
Stream of Consciousness is a minor-key instrumental
In The Name of God is a screed against Islamic Terrorism


I'm not sure they could make a more cold and serious album if they tried?

Agreed.

[Max Kuehnau]

In contrast, Train of Thought is not cold and serious

The first song is basically a fuck you to other musicians who have slagged Dream Theater
The next one is about the horrors of alcoholism
The third track is all about making sacrifices even when you don't want to
The fourth track is pretty much a fuck you to Mike Portnoy's stepfather, who was apparently an emotionally abusive prick
Vacant is very sad
Stream of Consciousness is a minor-key instrumental
In The Name of God is a screed against Islamic Terrorism


I'm not sure they could make a more cold and serious album if they tried?

Agreed.

They can, and they did IMHO. And especially musically and technically speaking. (More technically complicated, colder, more sterile, cleaner execution) Just saying.

[hefdaddy42]

In contrast, Train of Thought is not cold and serious

The first song is basically a fuck you to other musicians who have slagged Dream Theater
The next one is about the horrors of alcoholism
The third track is all about making sacrifices even when you don't want to
The fourth track is pretty much a fuck you to Mike Portnoy's stepfather, who was apparently an emotionally abusive prick
Vacant is very sad
Stream of Consciousness is a minor-key instrumental
In The Name of God is a screed against Islamic Terrorism


I'm not sure they could make a more cold and serious album if they tried?

Agreed.

They can, and they did IMHO. And especially musically and technically speaking. (More technically complicated, colder, more sterile, cleaner execution) Just saying.

If you say so.  But you're an emotionless brainiac, so what do you know?


It's telling, of course, that kirk's opinion, with which I agreed, definitely took into account the lyrics, while your opinion apparently does not.  To which album are you referring?

[bosk1]

I agree with "they can."  Of course they can/could.  But "they did?"  Which album?    Although KNH is slightly off on a couple of his takes of what the songs are about, his general point is pretty spot on.  Which album is more "cold and serious" than TOT?

[hefdaddy42]

I agree with "they can."  Of course they can/could.  But "they did?"  Which album?    Although KNH is slightly off on a couple of his takes of what the songs are about, his general point is pretty spot on.  Which album is more "cold and serious" than TOT?

Maybe Six Degrees.  Because of JP's hair.

??

[Max Kuehnau]

I agree with "they can."  Of course they can/could.  But "they did?"  Which album?    Although KNH is slightly off on a couple of his takes of what the songs are about, his general point is pretty spot on.  Which album is more "cold and serious" than TOT?

Well, IMHO, any Mangini era album could be described as that, but I was going for the general sound of DT12 as an example, because as far as I remember, the sound of DT12 had been descibed as being sterile and cold. And IMHO again, DT12 and ADTOE feature some of the most difficult sections in a DT piece to date. (during Outcry and Illumination Theory), far harder than Portnoy era DT. But these are just my quarters and dimes.

[Max Kuehnau]

I agree with "they can."  Of course they can/could.  But "they did?"  Which album?    Although KNH is slightly off on a couple of his takes of what the songs are about, his general point is pretty spot on.  Which album is more "cold and serious" than TOT?

Maybe Six Degrees.  Because of JP's hair.

??

Thanks for the laughs.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I agree with "they can."  Of course they can/could.  But "they did?"  Which album?    Although KNH is slightly off on a couple of his takes of what the songs are about, his general point is pretty spot on.  Which album is more "cold and serious" than TOT?

Well, IMHO, any Mangini era album could be described as that, but I was going for the general sound of DT12 as an example, because as far as I remember, the sound of DT12 had been descibed as being sterile and cold. And IMHO again, DT12 and ADTOE feature some of the most difficult sections in a DT piece to date. (during Outcry and Illumination Theory), far harder than Portnoy era DT. But these are just my quarters and dimes.

I think you're talking about something entirely different than what the others are talking about. When you say "cold and serious", you're talking about the apparent "sterility" of DT12 soundwise, I think? That falls 100% in the realm of subjectivity and interpretation, whereas they are talking about the music in Train of Thought to be thematically darker which is basically not something so debatable as it's closer to a fact than an opinion.

Also, I really can't see how a challenging instrumental section would translate as something "cold and serious". Not trying to be a prick, but I think the perspectives you are offering, although incredibly valid of course, are far off from the point of the conversation. 

[Max Kuehnau]

I don't disagree with the point about the darkness of the lyrical subject matter. That, I'm sure is the case on Train Of Thought. Musically though, not entirely sure. Still an interesting result of what seemed to be challenging times for the band. (and back to D/T, some of the heaviness of TOT, and the relative speed of the writing process) definitely carried over to D/T in some ways IMHO.

Btw: The tour for Train Of Thought was the last DT tour I attended while MP was in the band. After having attended both the 6D and Met2 tours, boy what a contrast it was, to say the least. The mood of the tour was dark to me back then too (as was TOT itself, emotionally speaking.)

[JRuless]

Btw: The tour for Train Of Thought was the last DT tour I attended while MP was in the band. After having attended both the 6D and Met2 tours, boy what a contrast it was, to say the least. The mood of the tour was dark to me back then too (as was TOT itself, emotionally speaking.)

I agree! Look at LaB, the whole stage setting has a dark mood. Its very simple too. I like it! The look and feel of Portnoys equipment was impressive with the heavy trainheads

[darkshade]

To me they're doing their best Metallica meets Pantera played by Dream Theater on Train of Thought, and to me I don't see it as dark or cold, but aggressive and energetic, the riffs on ToT... JP is the riff master on that album compared to Mangini era JP. I always think of the basic chugga chugga main riff of The Enemy Inside as the most stock riff of modern DT. Which is why I'm surprised at his new album and the new LTE single, he's still got that in him. Jordan's keys over the last few albums also sound more serious, and dark, than in the 00s.

As for Awake, aside from The Mirror which is really just aggressive, I don't find the darker moments dark, as much as sad. They have a sad, longing feeling to them, it's in the keys. The album, along with IaW, is also of its time, that post-80s, early-mid 90s feel that is present in most popular music of the time period (early/mid 80s-1994). I don't feel that from modern DT albums, for the most part. The only dark song they did prior to Systematic Chaos is Disappear.

BTW this is all based on the music. I don't really put too much weight on lyrical content in DT's music, and I also don't find DT's music very dark relative to other music out there.

[DoctorAction]

I'm not sure about cold and serious. DT are quite an earnest band, for the most part, and always have been. There are almost no all-out joy or jokey songs. Warmth and fun tends to come out in musical style and feels. Eg. Zappa-isms in instrumental breaks, ragtime piano, LITS, Just Let Me Breathe, Viper King, S2N, TDEN, ITPOE.

ToT was clearly an attempt to be dark, and respect for trying something different. It sounded risible to me but I'd say it was serious but not cold.

The MM era does have a slighty more rigid feel, somehow, but I think that's down to a combination of his ability to be so precise and how clean/rigid JP wants the whole production to be.

D/T has remained my go-to DT record since it came out. Has a more fun, energetic feel than any other of their recent records, AFAIC.

Liveliness above rigidity is probably the key emphasis I'd like to see the band pursue at this point. Real groove above click tracks, atmosphere above cleanliness.

[kirksnosehair]

For me, two years into this one, it's settled in pretty far down my list.  I'd rank the studio albums something like this:


01 - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (still the band's creative zenith in my opinion)
02 - Images & Words
03 - Scenes From a Memory
04 - A Dramatic Turn of Events (with better production it might be #2)
05 - Train of Thought
06 - Octavarium
07 - Black Clouds and Silver Linings
08 - Falling Into Infinity
09 - Awake
10 - Systematic Chaos
11 - Dream Theater
12 - Distance over Time
13 - When Dream and Day Unite
14 - The Astonishing

[bluefox4000]

I have to say i had a hard time with this album.  went hot and cold on it.....back and forth on it for so long.

when it came on out i wasn't huge on Paralysed or Untethered Angel. 

but.....the new live album helped with this record a lot.

Songs i love.

Unthered Angel
Fall Into The Light
Barstool Warrior
S2N
At wits end
Viper King (it's bonus but i love it)

ok songs

Out of Reach
Pale Blue Dot (always thought this was a bit over hyped......bit too long for long's sake)

Don't Like

Paralyzed
Room 137

but........This album did grow on me a was WAY harder on it 2 years ago.

[kirksnosehair]

Safest Dream Theater album in their entire catalog, for better or worse.
A couple of nuggets, mainly the last 3 songs, not counting the bonus track, and Barstool Warrior.
Otherwise, to me its the Mangini era version of Systematic Chaos, but even SC had some surprises.
This album also really showed JLB's age, and I'd rather he go back to the pre-Mangini, dry sound he had on the earlier recordings. He's soaked in effects now.
When the bonus track is the most interesting song, you have to wonder who's steering the ship, if anyone.

How is this a safe Dream Theater album?
What are these nuggets?
James LaBrie was likely the one who chose to be soaked in effects. He always has used effects, the effects he is using this time are just more noticeable in the mix, and I think they work well with the music.
The Bonus Track is an interesting song because it's something they jammed for fun, and then just said screw, let's record this. It's why JP felt to also include the ending they did for At Wit's End during the live rehearsal for the song, and just loved how it all turned out, and it couldn't be replicated again, so he took that recording and added it to the end.

Safe because they stuck to shorter, concise writing (for them), most of the songs have a generally standard pop structure. They did not allow for any longer instrumental sections, and they upped the old school metal in their sound again, at the detriment of the prog, likely because of mixed reactions to The Astonishing. At least when they upped the metal on Train of Thought it was progressive, in the sense that they were pushing their metal sound forward, as opposed to ripping of Dave Mustaine and James Hetfield's riff styles as they have done from SC to DoT, or trying to sound more like modern acts. When DT get heavy these days, it still sounds like they're trying to stay hip and current within the metal framework, so I don't know why people think that that stopped happening when Portnoy left the band. All they did when MP left was bring back more melodic/major key stuff, which was already happening on BC&SL anyway, on The Best of Times and Count of Tuscany.

I meant nuggets as in "classic tunes among not-so classic songs", not nuggets like on Octavarium or other Portnoy era albums.

Viper King is an example of doing something different, but still cool, something I think the band has earned the right to do. Some say that is what The Astonishing is, and well, OK, but I didn't care for that particular approach, so I'd like to see the band try something else, not take a step back and play it safe. They kind of did the same thing with ADTOE, when you think about it.

No "kind of" about it if you ask me.  I think ADTOE was an intentional homage to their I&W era style.  The album was even criticized (misguidedly, in my opinion) for being a "duplicate" or "imitation" of I&W, but I don't think it was that at all.  I think the band probably realized that in the last few albums with Portnoy they had drifted pretty far from their most successful style and approach, which most agree is the I&W >> Awake >> SFAM >> SDOIT >> ToT >> Octavarium run of albums.   You could stick ADTOE almost anywhere in between two of those albums and apart from the shitty production values, it would sound perfectly at home in that group.  Nothing they've recorded since then would fit as well, though. 

[bluefox4000]

Safest Dream Theater album in their entire catalog, for better or worse.
A couple of nuggets, mainly the last 3 songs, not counting the bonus track, and Barstool Warrior.
Otherwise, to me its the Mangini era version of Systematic Chaos, but even SC had some surprises.
This album also really showed JLB's age, and I'd rather he go back to the pre-Mangini, dry sound he had on the earlier recordings. He's soaked in effects now.
When the bonus track is the most interesting song, you have to wonder who's steering the ship, if anyone.

How is this a safe Dream Theater album?
What are these nuggets?
James LaBrie was likely the one who chose to be soaked in effects. He always has used effects, the effects he is using this time are just more noticeable in the mix, and I think they work well with the music.
The Bonus Track is an interesting song because it's something they jammed for fun, and then just said screw, let's record this. It's why JP felt to also include the ending they did for At Wit's End during the live rehearsal for the song, and just loved how it all turned out, and it couldn't be replicated again, so he took that recording and added it to the end.

Safe because they stuck to shorter, concise writing (for them), most of the songs have a generally standard pop structure. They did not allow for any longer instrumental sections, and they upped the old school metal in their sound again, at the detriment of the prog, likely because of mixed reactions to The Astonishing. At least when they upped the metal on Train of Thought it was progressive, in the sense that they were pushing their metal sound forward, as opposed to ripping of Dave Mustaine and James Hetfield's riff styles as they have done from SC to DoT, or trying to sound more like modern acts. When DT get heavy these days, it still sounds like they're trying to stay hip and current within the metal framework, so I don't know why people think that that stopped happening when Portnoy left the band. All they did when MP left was bring back more melodic/major key stuff, which was already happening on BC&SL anyway, on The Best of Times and Count of Tuscany.

I meant nuggets as in "classic tunes among not-so classic songs", not nuggets like on Octavarium or other Portnoy era albums.

Viper King is an example of doing something different, but still cool, something I think the band has earned the right to do. Some say that is what The Astonishing is, and well, OK, but I didn't care for that particular approach, so I'd like to see the band try something else, not take a step back and play it safe. They kind of did the same thing with ADTOE, when you think about it.

No "kind of" about it if you ask me.  I think ADTOE was an intentional homage to their I&W era style.  The album was even criticized (misguidedly, in my opinion) for being a "duplicate" or "imitation" of I&W, but I don't think it was that at all.  I think the band probably realized that in the last few albums with Portnoy they had drifted pretty far from their most successful style and approach, which most agree is the I&W >> Awake >> SFAM >> SDOIT >> ToT >> Octavarium run of albums.   You could stick ADTOE almost anywhere in between two of those albums and apart from the shitty production values, it would sound perfectly at home in that group.  Nothing they've recorded since then would fit as well, though.

say what you want to about ADTOE all of which i agree with, BTW.

but i love it so much more than the last 2 portnoy era albums.

Return to form for me.

[Max Kuehnau]

Of course, a much needed return to form. Their best to date IMHO. (DT12 as well)

[bluefox4000]

Of course, a much needed return to form. Their best to date IMHO. (DT12 as well)

I adore DT12

top 3 honestly.

[hunnus2000]

Of course, a much needed return to form. Their best to date IMHO. (DT12 as well)

I adore DT12

top 3 honestly.

I'm with you Bro! To me, it's everything a DT fan would want. Heavy and melodic. 

[Schurftkut]

ADTOE is top 5 DT for me, mix aside

[darkshade]

ADTOE has dropped a few pegs with me over the years. It's just under cooked in a lot of spots, or overcooked (Outcry for example) and this is the beginning of JLB being noticeably overproduced on the studio albums (to hide declining ability?)

I feel like all the Mangini albums contain great ideas that never get fleshed out often, if at all. Instead we get other ideas, or technical stuff for the sake of it, and thrown together with no purpose behind it (think an album of Ministry of Lost Souls type songs)
Say what you want about SC->BC&SL, but many of these issues began creeping into the band's music on those 2 albums, before MP left, and never went away.

[KevShmev]

My ranking of ADTOE has dropped severely in recent years because of how dry and lifeless the production is.  It sounds good for the mellow songs and sections, but the rocking parts sound like the balls were cut off in post-production.  It's a shame cause the songwriting is mostly damn good on that record, and you can tell they were rejuvenated and ready to kick some ass again, but the sound/mix really let its down.

[Dedalus]

ADTOE is top 5 DT for me, mix aside

I totally agree.

And personally it was an important album for me. Before ADTOE I literally asked myself "why the fuck am I wasting my time with DT?". ADTOE changed my perspective at the time.

[Zydar]

ADTOE was a big step up for me after SC and BCSL. I guess they needed that "dramatic event" of MP leaving to shake things up.