IMAGES, WORDS & BEYOND LIVE IN JAPAN 2017 Online video stream 30/01/21 7pm EST

[Skeever]

https://youtu.be/ZQP1HDXcQD4

Is this the same day?

The guy who runs that channel needs urgent psychiatric help and should be ignored.

Other than that, it's amazing what an actual mix can do!

Just listened to the first three and a half minutes... Not James's strongest performance.

Had the version streamed at the weekend been firkled with? I had no interest in it myself but pleased people enjoyed it.

Edit: really is a curious mix, this. Wonder where it's from? (Listening to Surrounded as I type... this is painful.)

(And yes, it does look like that chap needs help! )

Who knows? The intended it for release at one point, so probably.

I don't think you've seen many concert DVDs that have not had some corrections made in post, by the way... unless you're really into trading bootlegs or something.

[nobloodyname]

Sure. I kind of meant more than normal, I guess (whatever "normal" is, of course).

[Skeever]

Sure. I kind of meant more than normal, I guess (whatever "normal" is, of course).

Doubt it.

[gzarruk]

Anyone knows if JP clarified why they will release only the I&W part of this show on LNF?

No idea, but hope they reconsider this. To me, set 1 is much more interesting and has songs that don't have any other official live versions (TBP, TGOM, ONW, HK). Getting both sets + ACOS would be ideal, but I don't think we need another stand alone live version of IAW (or SFAM).

[noxon]

As with anything - cost is an important factor...

[PMA]

I watched the stream this past Saturday and thought the mix was very good but it did have some ambient room sound, especially with the drums that did make it sound more "live" but everything could be clearly heard.  I thought James was good overall but struggled here and there given some high note and range issues on the I&W set.  When I saw the tour originally, I didn't care for how James tried to embellish certain parts of his vocal melody on the I&W material and he did that in this performance as well but it didn't seem so off putting as the night I saw them.  I would still pay for this concert if it was made available as a digital download.  I just like having as much of them live as I can get.

A few of you have mentioned the LNF archive and that they plan on putting the I&W portion of this concert there.  Is there a URL for that and is there other material there now?  Any reason for only the I&W portion?

[ResultsMayVary]

https://youtu.be/ZQP1HDXcQD4

Is this the same day?

The guy who runs that channel needs urgent psychiatric help and should be ignored.

Other than that, it's amazing what an actual mix can do!

Just listened to the first three and a half minutes... Not James's strongest performance.

Had the version streamed at the weekend been firkled with? I had no interest in it myself but pleased people enjoyed it.

Edit: really is a curious mix, this. Wonder where it's from? (Listening to Surrounded as I type... this is painful.)

(And yes, it does look like that chap needs help! )

As someone who watched the stream, I concur on James. He struggled through several songs, settled in, and was doing quite well through the second set and encore.

[RodrigoAltaf]

https://youtu.be/ZQP1HDXcQD4

Is this the same day?

The guy who runs that channel needs urgent psychiatric help and should be ignored.

Other than that, it's amazing what an actual mix can do!

Just listened to the first three and a half minutes... Not James's strongest performance.

Had the version streamed at the weekend been firkled with? I had no interest in it myself but pleased people enjoyed it.

Edit: really is a curious mix, this. Wonder where it's from? (Listening to Surrounded as I type... this is painful.)

(And yes, it does look like that chap needs help! )

This guy from "The Ravenskill Rebel Militia" needs another occupation in life...he posted something really aggressive on the YT video of my interview with Petrucci. It seems his whole life revolves around looking for DT related content online, to bash them and say "Portnoy is king".

[Dedalus]

https://youtu.be/ZQP1HDXcQD4

Is this the same day?

The guy who runs that channel needs urgent psychiatric help and should be ignored.

Other than that, it's amazing what an actual mix can do!

Just listened to the first three and a half minutes... Not James's strongest performance.

Had the version streamed at the weekend been firkled with? I had no interest in it myself but pleased people enjoyed it.

Edit: really is a curious mix, this. Wonder where it's from? (Listening to Surrounded as I type... this is painful.)

(And yes, it does look like that chap needs help! )

This guy from "The Ravenskill Rebel Militia" needs another occupation in life...he posted something really aggressive on the YT video of my interview with Petrucci. It seems his whole life revolves around looking for DT related content online, to bash them and say "Portnoy is king".

He's not going to stop, he's obsessed. I'm already happy that this guy is apparently not a Nathan Gale-type fan.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

This guy from "The Ravenskill Rebel Militia" needs another occupation in life...he posted something really aggressive on the YT video of my interview with Petrucci. It seems his whole life revolves around looking for DT related content online, to bash them and say "Portnoy is king".

I feel that's your ordinary internet-lurker-DTdiedwithPortnoyLaBrieSucks type of fan.

The difference is, this guy has apparently enough free time to actually do shit. 

[Anxiety35]

For those of us who missed it, will they release this for download purchase or upload it on their YouTube channel?

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

For those of us who missed it, will they release this for download purchase or upload it on their YouTube channel?

Seems unlikely. The band apparently has no control over this product so this is a one-time thing. I hope it will hopefully turn out as a bootleg release of sorts one day.

[bosk1]

Just started watching.  This is really good so far.  Since I missed this tour, I am really glad I get to see it this way now.

[tiago]

The setlist is awesome, but the voice is terrible. I can't watch this DVD and can't believe that the band released it. It is the worse record of JLB.

[geeeemo]

The setlist is awesome, but the voice is terrible. I can't watch this DVD and can't believe that the band released it. It is the worse record of JLB.

It's funny how there can be differing opinions about that. I dont care for the setlist that much as compared to others, but the performance from all the band made it great for me.

[Architeuthis]

I really like the first set and JLB sounds pretty good on the most part. The Bigger Picture is a great song for live settings. It would have been almost flawless but he fell flat on the "carried by the current on a slow and steady course" part.  Gotta give him a pass though, it's hard to be pitch perfect night after night on a big tour. He also looked cooler on this show like he owned the stage. 🤘

[Skeever]

The setlist is awesome, but the voice is terrible. I can't watch this DVD and can't believe that the band released it. It is the worse record of JLB.

It's funny how there can be differing opinions about that. I dont care for the setlist that much as compared to others, but the performance from all the band made it great for me.

I agree. I thought he sounded good. On both sets. I thought he sounded better on Set 2 than Set 1. I just think DT's older style of music is kinder to his voice, as more of a classic metal wailer. For the first set, hearing him wail over all those dark, heavy, drop-tunned riffs... it just doesn't work for me as well as the color-splash that is Images and Words.

[bosk1]

The setlist is awesome, but the voice is terrible. I can't watch this DVD and can't believe that the band released it. It is the worse record of JLB.

It's funny how there can be differing opinions about that. I dont care for the setlist that much as compared to others, but the performance from all the band made it great for me.

I agree. I thought he sounded good. On both sets. I thought he sounded better on Set 2 than Set 1. I just think DT's older style of music is kinder to his voice, as more of a classic metal wailer. For the first set, hearing him wail over all those dark, heavy, drop-tunned riffs... it just doesn't work for me as well as the color-splash that is Images and Words.

Same here.  I mean, is he perfect?  No.  Is he pitchy at times, does he miss notes, and does he go for lower harmonies than what is on the albums?  Sure.  But show me a performance of Bruce Dickinson or Dio at that age, and tell me those guys went for and hit every note and sounded just like the record 25 years later. 

Overall, James sounded really good.  The two spots that jumped out at me as being rough were TTT and Another Day, and those are impossible anyway.  I have long said that those should have been retired from the live set years ago anyway (with the exception of this tour, obviously, since the entire album is what they were going for).

[Skeever]

I think James has it a lot harder than Bruce, anyway. Not that Bruce is in a great singer, but the types of vocal melodies he has to sing are a lot less demanding than James'. This might not be appreciated by people who don't really think about music in this way, but Bruce is often singing more melodically repetitive lines, and often with one of the guitar players playinhg the same exact melody as his vocal line. The classic Iron Maiden chorus is three or four notes repeated like eight times, most of which the audience are happy to sing whenever Bruce needs to catch his breath. James' melodies are a lot more intricate and less repetitive, there are far more opportunities where he'll stick out like a sore thumb for being off.

[TAC]

The setlist is awesome, but the voice is terrible. I can't watch this DVD and can't believe that the band released it. It is the worse record of JLB.

It's funny how there can be differing opinions about that. I dont care for the setlist that much as compared to others, but the performance from all the band made it great for me.

I agree. I thought he sounded good. On both sets. I thought he sounded better on Set 2 than Set 1. I just think DT's older style of music is kinder to his voice, as more of a classic metal wailer. For the first set, hearing him wail over all those dark, heavy, drop-tunned riffs... it just doesn't work for me as well as the color-splash that is Images and Words.

Same here.  I mean, is he perfect?  No.  Is he pitchy at times, does he miss notes, and does he go for lower harmonies than what is on the albums?  Sure.  But show me a performance of Bruce Dickinson or Dio at that age, and tell me those guys went for and hit every note and sounded just like the record 25 years later. 

Overall, James sounded really good.  The two spots that jumped out at me as being rough were TTT and Another Day, and those are impossible anyway.  I have long said that those should have been retired from the live set years ago anyway (with the exception of this tour, obviously, since the entire album is what they were going for).

I used to say that no band asks of their singer what DT asks of James.

Anyone complaining about James on something like Distant Memories should listen to Maiden's latest album. Bruce is awful, practically distracting. And Dio did indeed struggle for a number of years...that is, until the final H&H tour where he was INCREDIBLE.

I watched a lot of the I&W&B show when it was still on youtube, and I'm sorry. James was unlistenable.

[Skeever]

I am a huge Maiden fan, but Bruce is nowhere near James, now or ever.

First off, James is not that much younger than Bruce, success just came later for him.

Bruce was in his early and mid 20s for most of Iron Maiden's best years, James was nearly 30 by the time Images and Words came out.

Bruce has gotten to play the fogey card since him came back for the reunion albums, but he was in his early 40s. For James, this age is his mid career.

James at 27 was a better singer than Bruce at 23. James at 40 was a better singer than Bruce at 35. James has spent his 40s and 50s singing for a band that still work on a demanding schedule.

Now James is 57 and Bruce is 62. Once again, James is singing better than Bruce no matter what you compare them on, but for James, the audience have always expected perfection, whereas Bruce has not been held to any standards or expectations since he decided to come back and save Iron Maiden from Blaze Bailey.

That is the difference between being part of a band that are driving forward and being part of a band that are just taking victory laps.

[Stadler]

Wow. Okay so this is now the back-handed dis Bruce thread.   

I'm a big fan of James; he's a huge part of why I even got into DT to begin with, and while he has his moments, I'm not as critical of him as many are.   But the comparisons with Bruce aren't really fair or accurate.   The last two times I saw DT, James spent a notable portion of the set behind the backline; the last two times I saw Bruce he literally acted out the entire set while singing the songs, for two straight hours.  Point isn't that one is better than another, point is, they are Corvettes and Cadillacs.  Apples and oranges. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Since we're going off vocal ability, and not stage antics. James does an excellent job, I'd say, for how demanding the style of music he sings requires. I don't expect him to hit all those notes, but when he does, it's makes it that much more awesome, especially when it's a show where he is in the moment. I think we got that when I saw him in Denver, and in Albuquerque. Really wish I could've heard him sing that Images and Words set.

[TAC]

Wow. Okay so this is now the back-handed dis Bruce thread.   

I'm a big fan of James; he's a huge part of why I even got into DT to begin with, and while he has his moments, I'm not as critical of him as many are.   But the comparisons with Bruce aren't really fair or accurate.   The last two times I saw DT, James spent a notable portion of the set behind the backline; the last two times I saw Bruce he literally acted out the entire set while singing the songs, for two straight hours.  Point isn't that one is better than another, point is, they are Corvettes and Cadillacs.  Apples and oranges.

Well, someone brought up Bruce and I responded.

As great as the Legacy Of The Beast tour was, and Bruce's "performance", he's awful on the live album and I'm somewhat surprised it was released with those vocals.
I remember the primary complaint when Death On The Road came out was that Bruce's vocals were not up to snuff. Personally I love that album, and I definitely don't agree, but on the new one...yikes.


OK, back to James.

It is shocking how much he struggled on the I&W&B tour. It's not even close to decent. he was much better on DoT tour.

[bosk1]

Stadler, if you think anything posted here was a backhanded dis of Bruce, you aren't paying attention to what we are saying.  I chose the Bruce comparison because he is so well respected.  And the point is simply that, as universally respected as he is, he isn't album-perfect either, and he pretty much the gold standard for a rock/metal tenor his age.  I wouldn't go as far as Skeever, but nothing he said is disrespectful to Bruce either.  The point is simply an apt comparison for James.  And, yes, they are comparable. 

[NoFred]

The setlist is awesome, but the voice is terrible. I can't watch this DVD and can't believe that the band released it. It is the worse record of JLB.

It's funny how there can be differing opinions about that. I dont care for the setlist that much as compared to others, but the performance from all the band made it great for me.

I agree. I thought he sounded good. On both sets. I thought he sounded better on Set 2 than Set 1. I just think DT's older style of music is kinder to his voice, as more of a classic metal wailer. For the first set, hearing him wail over all those dark, heavy, drop-tunned riffs... it just doesn't work for me as well as the color-splash that is Images and Words.

I think there’s something to this. On distant memories I was pretty harsh on how he sounded on PBD, especially considering how great he was at the show I attended. But once the album was released I loved his performance on nearly every track.

[MirrorMask]

The classic Iron Maiden chorus is three or four notes repeated like eight times, most of which the audience are happy to sing whenever Bruce needs to catch his breath. James' melodies are a lot more intricate and less repetitive, there are far more opportunities where he'll stick out like a sore thumb for being off.

Bon Jovi never has to worry to (try invain to) reach the notes of Livin' on a Prayer chorus. There's not a corresponding situation in DT's catalog. Can you imagine James pointing out the mic to the audience during the insane stanza of Take the Time or the "going for the stratosphere" part of Innocence Faded?  all he can do is avoid singing the chorus of Pull Me Under which isn't that difficult to begin with.

[Skeever]

Wow. Okay so this is now the back-handed dis Bruce thread.   

I'm a big fan of James; he's a huge part of why I even got into DT to begin with, and while he has his moments, I'm not as critical of him as many are.   But the comparisons with Bruce aren't really fair or accurate.   The last two times I saw DT, James spent a notable portion of the set behind the backline; the last two times I saw Bruce he literally acted out the entire set while singing the songs, for two straight hours.  Point isn't that one is better than another, point is, they are Corvettes and Cadillacs.  Apples and oranges. 

But when it comes to expectations, James has it way worse. I've been a fan of Maiden as long as I've been a fan of DT (20 years for both bands), and I can honestly say that no one has really cared if Bruce can still hit the notes for the entirety of my Maiden fandom. Yet James is always under a microscope. You would not think that the singers were only 5 years apart in age based on how people treat their vocal performances.

[Setlist Scotty]

I would say part of the reason why JL is held to a higher standard is because of the type of music that DT plays, and perhaps the rest of the musicians he plays with. DT is known for being a precise band that performs complicated music with relative ease, Maiden not so much.

But when I think of other bands that musically are more comparable, the vocalists don't get an automatic pass either. I can remember hearing people complaining about Geddy Lee's vocals for at least the last 3 tours they did. And probably an even more obvious situation is with Queensryche - both with Tater and Todd. Tate's vocal abilities diminished dramatically over the years and the fans certainly didn't hold back. Even now with Todd - yeah, he can hit the notes, but I remember reading comments about him straining and the fact that the band is having to play shorter sets because he just doesn't have enough gas in the tank for longer shows. So it's not just JL - I think it depends to at least some degree on the genre of music.

[Stadler]

Well, the comment WAS intended to get a laugh.     I know we have a lot of Bruce fans here. 

Maybe it's me; I just don't make the comparisons like that. I think there are too many different variables excepting the stage craft is like saying "well, except for the difference in wheels/tracks, a train and a car are the same thing. Cars are better because you can go wherever you want".  Well, yeah, but the wheels/track are a big part of that.   I think Scotty is on to something with that.  I've already said; personally, I don't get some of the criticisms of James either.  He's got a tough job, and in the past I have agreed that there's really no singer in rock that is/was so regularly asked to do what he does: list the singers that that guy has covered, and covered WELL, over the years.  Bono, Perry, Mercury, Dio, Hetfield, Dickinson, Gilmour, Gillan, Osborne, Walsh, John, Lee, Anselmo...

I agree with TAC; having seen what I saw in Hartford (and having the boot to prove I wasn't wasted/delusional) the live album was NOT Bruce's finest hour, even with THREE nights to choose from.  Again, maybe it's me; I'm looking for different things from them not just as frontmen, but as singers.   Then again, I never really understood the Maiden/DT comparisons either, even though I love both.

[nikatapi]

I would say part of the reason why JL is held to a higher standard is because of the type of music that DT plays, and perhaps the rest of the musicians he plays with. DT is known for being a precise band that performs complicated music with relative ease, Maiden not so much.

But when I think of other bands that musically are more comparable, the vocalists don't get an automatic pass either. I can remember hearing people complaining about Geddy Lee's vocals for at least the last 3 tours they did. And probably an even more obvious situation is with Queensryche - both with Tater and Todd. Tate's vocal abilities diminished dramatically over the years and the fans certainly didn't hold back. Even now with Todd - yeah, he can hit the notes, but I remember reading comments about him straining and the fact that the band is having to play shorter sets because he just doesn't have enough gas in the tank for longer shows. So it's not just JL - I think it depends to at least some degree on the genre of music.

You're right and you bring up some good points.
I don't believe any other vocalist (maybe Geddy from Rush) has been touring so heavily and doing such long shows. That definitely takes a toll on the voice.
Now James has had his ups and downs as well, i remember that during the BC&SL tour as well as the DT12 one he was actually pretty good for his recent standards, at least based on the bootlegs i've followed.

Personally i feel like his performances have been less than great in the tours starting with the Astonishing, and each subsequent one. When i saw them on the last tour, he was sounding (and showing) tired and strained, even though his stage presence was actually pretty good.

I suppose aging is a factor as well and nothing he can do about. But i feel like his issues are coming up more often recently, and to be honest on Distance Over Time i felt it was the first time that i felt a bit disappointed by his performance on a studio album, where at parts his voice is drowned in effects and sounds strained.

Hopefully the lack of touring due to covid gives him some time to rest and work on his voice, because i really love him as a vocalist and i bet that all the criticism he gets must be annoying to say the least.

The performance on the Live In Japan stream was okay-ish, with some really audible pitch corrections and some cringe-worthy moments for me.

I really hope on the next album he sings more closely to his "comfortable" range, as his voice is incredibly warm when he doesn't try to reach the stratosphere.

[cramx3]

JLB has the unfortunate position of singing next to musical geniuses and while the guitars/keyboards/drums can be replaced or fixed, there's not much JLB to help his aging voice.  I definitely feel bad for the flack he gets because of his situation.  I think he does the best he can do, and for me, that's usually pretty damn good.  Far from perfect, but that's ok.  I'm less of a fan of his stage presence than his singing personally to go back to the Bruce comparison, but there's no doubt in my mind that JLB has it harder on the vocals than Bruce.

And someone mentioned Bon Jovi, he also struggles pretty badly live these days with his aging vocals too.  It's really just natural IMO.

[bosk1]

And someone mentioned Bon Jovi, he also struggles pretty badly live these days with his aging vocals too.  It's really just natural IMO.

Yeah, and that's all I was really saying above, for the most part.  And I think most people get that. 

And to the comparison with Tate that Scotty mentioned, while there is some truth to that, that is also a different case for a couple of reasons, one that isn't really fair to him and one that totally is:

First off, if Bruce was the gold standard, Tate was the platinum standard.  In his prime, NOBODY could sing like him.  Nobody.  And it wasn't just the range, but how cleanly he sang the notes.  It isn't fair, but he is always going to be compared to that by some. 

But secondly, his problems later on weren't just natural loss of range.  He lost range because he abused his voice and just didn't care.  When asked about it, he was always very flippant about the substance abuse, the drinking, the smoking, and no attempt to do warmups or vocal coaching.  And both on studio albums and live, you could hear and see him singing with really, really bad technique that compounded the problem.  That criticism is COMPLETELY fair game.

And to bring it back to James on the latter point, that is where James is above reproach.  For decades, he has gone to great lengths to take care of his voice and to get training.  Whether you like his voice, hate it, or fall somewhere in between, you can't criticize him for the same things someone like Tate is open to.

[Skeever]

JLB has the unfortunate position of singing next to musical geniuses and while the guitars/keyboards/drums can be replaced or fixed, there's not much JLB to help his aging voice.  I definitely feel bad for the flack he gets because of his situation.  I think he does the best he can do, and for me, that's usually pretty damn good.  Far from perfect, but that's ok.  I'm less of a fan of his stage presence than his singing personally to go back to the Bruce comparison, but there's no doubt in my mind that JLB has it harder on the vocals than Bruce.

And someone mentioned Bon Jovi, he also struggles pretty badly live these days with his aging vocals too.  It's really just natural IMO.

It seems that every "next best thing" on vocals has a fall that is not far at all from the top of their bell curve. Doesn't matter if it's LaBrie, Adele, Adam Lambert, Josh Groban, Celene Dion, or whoever...
It really just is natural. These guys sing incredibly demanding stuff, and no amount of raw physical talent can make up for it, especially when these guys are singing non-stop for years. It's no different than an athlete playing a sport.

[cramx3]

Oh yea for sure, singing like this for 100 nights a year every year is going to destroy your body.  It's actually amazing that these guys can still perform at the level they do.  It, to me, shows they do care about their vocals and are trying their best.  That's all we can really ask out of anyone. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't chat about it and have our thoughts, even negative ones.  Just got to try and keep it in perspective.