How many "epics" does Dream Theater have?

[Setlist Scotty]

Here's something I was thinking about: how would Metropolis part II fit in everyone's rankings if they hadn't reworked it into SFaM? Obviously the only version we have to go by is instrumental, so we'll never know what the lyrics or vocal melodies could have been, but when I've listened to it, I still think it's an awesome piece of music. That said, I haven't figured out yet how I would rank it compared to the other epics, but I was curious to see what everyone else thought.

[Trav86]

Alright.  I’m doing it.  I’m committing now.

1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. The Count of Tuscany
4. A View from the Top of the World
5. A Change of Seasons
6. In the Presence of Enemies
7. Illumination Theory

[ZirconBlue]

Here's something I was thinking about: how would Metropolis part II fit in everyone's rankings if they hadn't reworked it into SFaM? Obviously the only version we have to go by is instrumental, so we'll never know what the lyrics or vocal melodies could have been, but when I've listened to it, I still think it's an awesome piece of music. That said, I haven't figured out yet how I would rank it compared to the other epics, but I was curious to see what everyone else thought.

I don't know, but I keep hoping some overachieving DT fan will splice the vocal parts from the album into the demo, where possible, just to have some idea what it might have ended up sounding like.

[bosk1]

Here's something I was thinking about: how would Metropolis part II fit in everyone's rankings if they hadn't reworked it into SFaM? Obviously the only version we have to go by is instrumental, so we'll never know what the lyrics or vocal melodies could have been, but when I've listened to it, I still think it's an awesome piece of music. That said, I haven't figured out yet how I would rank it compared to the other epics, but I was curious to see what everyone else thought.

Interesting thought.  For me, I just have no idea.  Since it is unfinished, and the version we have not only lacks vocals, but is kind of a mess, it's too hard to speculate as to what it would have sounded like if it was worked into a final product. 

[425]

I've only listened to it a couple of times. Listening to it again, prompted by this question, I'm inclined to agree with bosk. It's surprising how much of Overture 1928 was present at that stage, but in this form, it sort of feels like much of is a long overture. Maybe it would feel more coherent with vocal sections, but it's not really possible to even imagine those in the existing form of the song outside of the Strange Deja Vu and One Last Time parts.

[Deadeye21]

But why do we all consider Tuscany an epic? I just don’t see it as fitting that label. It’s a beautiful journey and an amazing song to boot, but it’s just an extended song, much like Nightmare and Ministry before it. And then, following that, why are we counting out Trial of Tears and Killing Hand, both of which fit as at least a mini-epic

[425]

How is The Count of Tuscany any less an epic than A View from the Top of the World? They're a minute apart in length, and fairly similar in structure.

[geeeemo]

So, the last couple of days, I listened to these songs a couple of times. What a spectacular list! Each one of these songs is unique yet classic Dream Theater. I was curious to see if how I felt about them ratings wise, lined up with my top 100 list, as I didn't listen to many when I did the rating.

Here is where they landed on the top 100 list:
1.Octavarium
2.The Count of Tuscany
3. ​Illumination Theory
5. In the Presence of Enemies
7. A Change of Seasons
16. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence

Now how do I rate them as a group along with The View?

Ocatavrium is just always going to be number one. There is no other song like it. The other songs make me think of destinations, feelings, the supernatural world, family. Ocatavrium is a song unto itself. It really doesn't mean anything. Oh, I have read all the analysis etc. But still, it's just not about anything else. What I think about when listening to Ocatavrium is..Ocatavrium.

I can leave the order as it is, although Count, IT and ITPOE really are interchangeable. I never tire of listening to them.
As I was listening to IT, I couldn't help but think of the people of Ukraine. They are willing to live, die, and kill for their country. The middle section provided for much reflection. It was pretty emotional.

As do many parts of DT songs, 6 Degrees fills my enjoyment of classical music (I studied classical piano for many years as a young girl). The mix of that and rock music with electric guitars, drums and amps is one of the reasons I love DT.

Where to put A View?? For now it seems to fit in at number 5. This song and album really reflects the heavy, pounding, frustrating and even anger of the past 2 years. It, too, is different. A relentless song, but with some of the best music and one of my favorite JP solos, coming after "A journey into darkness beckons me".

So.
1. Octavarium
2-4. Count, IT, ITPOE
5. A View
6. ACOS
7. 6 Degrees.

[EPIC Outro]

Early in the thread, someone said that the three minute difference between A Nightmare to Remember and The Count of Tuscany was a good dividing line between what is an epic and what is not... But for me, I think one of the defining parts of a Dream Theater epic is the climax it builds to, the EPIC Outro, if you will. In the case of Nightmare, the songs just kind of meanders at the end and doesn't have a major final 'movement.' I think if DT had crafted a grander ending to that song (within the same time frame) it could have very easily redefined 16 minutes as Epic territory.

I still think they can accomplish this!

[Spider In The Sky]

I think this question depends on the context of the artist's catalogue. With DT usually playing around in the 7-12 minute range, song lengths that would easily qualify as epics for many other bands, it doesn't really seem to fit on something like Pull Me Under, ya know?  I think with JP or JR sit down thinking "let's write an EPIC," they're thinking a lot more about 2112 and Supper's Ready and Close To The Edge than Jacob's Ladder and The Return Of The Giant Hogweed and South Side Of The Sky. They're really thinking in that 20ish minute, vinyl record sidelong range (or longer of course). So I think for DT all the 20+ minute song qualify for sure. Below that it kinda depends, because I do hear Voices as trying to be very epic within a shorter time frame, but it's not really the timestamp that gives it that effect. Learning To Live probably wants to be called an epic as well, so I think it does depend a bit on the composition of the song, if it feels like they just jammed for a few extra minutes that made it jump over the ten minute mark vs. if they really had a lot of ideas they wanted to fit into a single piece to tell a musical story.

[Dublagent66]

Epics aren't necessarily exclusive to song length, even though that is part of the equation when considering an epic I would imagine.