New LTE - LTE 3 2021!!

[Stadler]

I doubt if MP had anything to do with the drum sounds on Images, it would have been the producer.

Hot take?  I was listening to I&W while shoveling the other day and I LIKE the sound of that record, drums and all. 

[Kwyjibo]

I doubt if MP had anything to do with the drum sounds on Images, it would have been the producer.

Hot take?  I was listening to I&W while shoveling the other day and I LIKE the sound of that record, drums and all.

Even hotter take, I like the drum sound on I&W better than on several other DT records, with and without MP.

[darkshade]

I doubt if MP had anything to do with the drum sounds on Images, it would have been the producer.

Hot take?  I was listening to I&W while shoveling the other day and I LIKE the sound of that record, drums and all.

IaW came out in a time where a lot of recorded music was still being recorded well, to the best that technology could offer, instead of recording for the sake of sounding good on cheap laptop speakers or streaming services.. Sometimes the choice of sounds from the 80s/90s might make something sound dated, but it was recorded well. The production on that album is very clear and open, something that became less and less for DT as time went on.

[Elite]

Seriously, I don’t understand why MM sound is brought to LTE thread.

Mike Mangini doesn't use enough whahìbrido pickingant

[KevShmev]

And I will reiterate that the band has done Mangini no favors in regards to the perception, as the drum sound on A Dramatic Turn of Events was a noticeable drop-off compared to every DT album prior to that one.

So the electronic drums on Images and Words sound better than the drums on ADTOE?   

Yes.

IaW came out in a time where a lot of recorded music was still being recorded well, to the best that technology could offer, instead of recording for the sake of sounding good on cheap laptop speakers or streaming services.. Sometimes the choice of sounds from the 80s/90s might make something sound dated, but it was recorded well. The production on that album is very clear and open, something that became less and less for DT as time went on.

Agreed.  Even if you (the general "you") are not a fan of the triggered snare, I&W as a whole is still an incredible sounding record by just about any measure. 

[HOF]

I doubt if MP had anything to do with the drum sounds on Images, it would have been the producer.

Hot take?  I was listening to I&W while shoveling the other day and I LIKE the sound of that record, drums and all.

The remixes they did for the Greatest Hit release sound so naked without the triggered drum sound.

[gzarruk]

I doubt if MP had anything to do with the drum sounds on Images, it would have been the producer.

Hot take?  I was listening to I&W while shoveling the other day and I LIKE the sound of that record, drums and all.

The remixes they did for the Greatest Hit release sound so naked without the triggered drum sound.

I tried listening to them but they just don't sound like IAW, it's not right.

[Lax]

I&W is fantastic and I think it's sound sits well in it's era.
Portnoy plays great, but the snare sound is to me terrible, like a loud RATATATA feeling off-topic compared to all the other sounds, I mean it's as bad sounding as a quantized and maximized free drum VST snare and rolls on it sounds like fireworks.

[Dedalus]

Seriously, I don’t understand why MM sound is brought to LTE thread.

This is easy to answer.

LTE3 has less to do with the project itself than with MP + JR + JP collaborating again.  Which leads us to the absence of MP in DT (as always), which leads us to MM, the usurper. 

Just an ordinary day at "DT World".

[Elite]

'Mike Mangini, the Usurper'

[devieira73]

I'm really happy that we have a new LTE album and I hope this turns out becoming a more regular side project for all involved.
For all this MP versus MM discussion, now I'm perfectly satified the way things are nowadays: with MP reconnected musically with JP, I guess we'll see more of JP solo and LTE releases in the upcoming years (I believe JP will be more motivated to do so, being an excuse to work with MP). Also I'm really happy with MM on DT and his incredible technical/creative drumming. But if, for whatever reason, MP came back to DT, I also would be happy, since I'm a longtime fan and always admired the MP/JP/JR chemistry, so... egoistically speaking, talk about a win/win situation 
As for the drum sound, I find really interesting that the first DT album and the first 2 MM's DT albums has the worst drums sounds of the entire DT's discography for similar reasons: the drums on WDaDU and ADToE sound like good organic drums that were poorly recorded and the drums on I&W and DT12 sound like triggered drums (in I&W's case it really is, of course). Just to add, IMO not only the snare sounds bad in those albums, but I would include all the toms and bass drums. Besides the drums, I also agree that I&W has a beautiful production. And finally, I definitely think it's much better triggered drums than poorly recorded drums!

[gzarruk]

As for the drum sound, I find really interesting that the first DT album and the first 2 MM's DT albums has the worst drums sounds of the entire DT's discography for similar reasons: the drums on WDaDU and ADToE sound like good organic drums that were poorly recorded and the drums on I&W and DT12 sound like triggered drums (in I&W's case it really is, of course). Just to add, IMO not only the snare sounds bad in those albums, but I would include all the toms and bass drums. Besides the drums, I also agree that I&W has a beautiful production. And finally, I definitely think it's much better triggered drums than poorly recorded drums!

I don't think that "poorly recorded drums" is a good description for ADTOE. They recorded a great kit with great mics on a great studio and it was all engineered by the great Paul Northfield. If anything, the "bad" sound (which I don't think it's bad at all) is a result of mixing and production choices, but definitely not "poorly recorded drums". I just think they're a bit low/unbalanced in the mix, but the sound itself is quite good.

[the_silent_man]

^Agreed. Its not just the drums that sound bad on that album, the guitar is weak and lacks power.

[devieira73]

I meant that it sounds poorly recorded, besides  the low mix problem. At least it's my perception.

[hefdaddy42]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

[Max Kuehnau]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

[deggs37]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Seems more like a JP vs MP drum mixing discussion to me.

[gzarruk]

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

That's what happens when someone hangs with Robert Fripp for that long

[Stadler]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Want me to start one in the BBQ thread?     

[kirksnosehair]

Again, when people are making subtle swipes at MM, all they are saying is that they prefer MP over MM.   

If you were referring to my "The drums sounds like REAL drums" comment. That is not a swipe at all at MM. To be honest, I prefer MM in Dream Theater these days.

It is, however, a direct swipe at the poor production choices they (Petrucci?) have been making these last 10 years. And even though the sounds have improved with The Astonishing and DOT - it's still not as good as they sounded from 1997 - 2009.

I've watched Mike Mangini videos he does on his own YouTube channel and the drums sound fine. I saw DT live with MM and the drums sound fine. I watched videos of MM touring with Steve Vai and the drums sound fine. But on the albums and live releases they sound over-produced to the point of almost sounding fake. It's just not a sound I am into at all, and really seems out of place for a band of DT's caliber.

Well, personally, I have nothing against Mangini at all.  But I'll be the first to admit that I have not been a fan of the inorganic sound and robotic style of his playing, especially on the self-titled album.  The Astonishing is not an album I listen to at all so I can't really comment on how the drums sound there and I think there has been an incremental improvement on Distance Over Time, but I am 100% in agreement that the albums recorded over the last 10 years could have sounded a lot more organic when it comes to percussion. 


If anyone interprets that as a swipe at Mangini, then I think you have a reading comprehension problem.  No offence.

I don't get how the sound is Robotic?

Mangini isn't really a groove/pocket player.  He's intensely accurate and unfortunately it often comes across on the recordings almost as programmed drums.  Portnoy's style is much looser.  He tends to sit back in the pocket a lot more, at least that's what my ears tell me when I listen to him play.


The other thing about Mangini that I don't care for is the way he uses the high-hat.  He seems to play with a partially open high-hat almost constantly.  I always found Portnoy's high-hat and cymbal work quite a bit more interesting. 


With that said, I think Mangini is a superior technical player.  He can do things that Portnoy cannot.  I am pretty sure there is nothing Portnoy can do that Mangini cannot do -EXCEPT- I think Portnoy is far more of a groove/pocket player. 


And just a general statement here but I think a lot of people around here conflate criticism of Mangini with malice towards him.  It is possible to be critical of an artist's performances or styles while still liking them personally and respecting their body of work. 

[MoraWintersoul]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Want me to start one in the BBQ thread?     

You should learn from MM and not stack your racks of ribs too high on the grill.

I've also heard that if you use a meat thermometer, your brisket will taste too robotic, far better to play it by ear.

[Ben_Jamin]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Seems more like a JP vs MP drum mixing discussion to me.

Almost but not quite. JP is the producer in Dream Theater now. No one else. JLB got Richard Chycki to help him with producing vocals. Because we all know JP can't sing. Also Labels, can also have an effect on how the final product should be. Sometimes, the labels have an idea of what they want their product to sound like. InsideOut isn't like most labels, but they would still have a say in their end product. It's the very reason why bands are starting to create their own Label Companies. So, the artist can have more control, rather than a record executive who's only interest is the profit.

Even though it's taken how many albums to find a good balance with Manginis' drum sound, since the Drum Producer decided to quit (which MP was in a way), I'm glad JP found it with 'Jimmy T'. He has made some great sounding drums both in recording, mixing, and engineering. He recorded both DoT and Terminal Velocity. If he is recording, LTE 3, then we are in for a treat.

None of these guys are the mixers. DoT had it done by Ben Grosse w/ an assistant and Terminal Velocity was done by Andy Sneap.

[Max Kuehnau]

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

That's what happens when someone hangs with Robert Fripp for that long

Haa. Yes it does of course.

[hefdaddy42]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Want me to start one in the BBQ thread?     

Thanks awfully.

[deggs37]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Seems more like a JP vs MP drum mixing discussion to me.

Because we all know JP can't sing.

Let me stop you right there with that nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5gloy7sxuc

[Ben_Jamin]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Seems more like a JP vs MP drum mixing discussion to me.

Because we all know JP can't sing.

Let me stop you right there with that nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5gloy7sxuc

"Let's hope the vocals don't carry on..."

[KevShmev]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

To me, Tony Levin is the secret sauce of this project.  He is on my Mount Rushmore of bass players on the strength alone of the first two LTE albums.  Okay, his work with Peter Gabriel and on King Crimson's Discipline gets a huge assist, but the LTE albums are what make him an all-time bad ass bassist (for me).

[Max Kuehnau]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

To me, Tony Levin is the secret sauce of this project.  He is on my Mount Rushmore of bass players on the strength alone of the first two LTE albums.  Okay, his work with Peter Gabriel and on King Crimson's Discipline gets a huge assist, but the LTE albums are what make him an all-time bad ass bassist (for me).

thank you.

[Peter Mc]

Late to the party but super excited for LTE, I love the other two albums, they are arguably my favourite instrumental albums of all time. 

Also, to all those sleeping on JP’s new album, you should give it a go if you like instrumental stuff.  It’s some of his and Portnoy’s best playing in many years imo.

[emtee]

Again, when people are making subtle swipes at MM, all they are saying is that they prefer MP over MM.   

If you were referring to my "The drums sounds like REAL drums" comment. That is not a swipe at all at MM. To be honest, I prefer MM in Dream Theater these days.

It is, however, a direct swipe at the poor production choices they (Petrucci?) have been making these last 10 years. And even though the sounds have improved with The Astonishing and DOT - it's still not as good as they sounded from 1997 - 2009.

I've watched Mike Mangini videos he does on his own YouTube channel and the drums sound fine. I saw DT live with MM and the drums sound fine. I watched videos of MM touring with Steve Vai and the drums sound fine. But on the albums and live releases they sound over-produced to the point of almost sounding fake. It's just not a sound I am into at all, and really seems out of place for a band of DT's caliber.

Well, personally, I have nothing against Mangini at all.  But I'll be the first to admit that I have not been a fan of the inorganic sound and robotic style of his playing, especially on the self-titled album.  The Astonishing is not an album I listen to at all so I can't really comment on how the drums sound there and I think there has been an incremental improvement on Distance Over Time, but I am 100% in agreement that the albums recorded over the last 10 years could have sounded a lot more organic when it comes to percussion. 


If anyone interprets that as a swipe at Mangini, then I think you have a reading comprehension problem.  No offence.

I don't get how the sound is Robotic?

Mangini isn't really a groove/pocket player.  He's intensely accurate and unfortunately it often comes across on the recordings almost as programmed drums.  Portnoy's style is much looser.  He tends to sit back in the pocket a lot more, at least that's what my ears tell me when I listen to him play.


The other thing about Mangini that I don't care for is the way he uses the high-hat.  He seems to play with a partially open high-hat almost constantly.  I always found Portnoy's high-hat and cymbal work quite a bit more interesting. 


With that said, I think Mangini is a superior technical player.  He can do things that Portnoy cannot.  I am pretty sure there is nothing Portnoy can do that Mangini cannot do -EXCEPT- I think Portnoy is far more of a groove/pocket player. 


And just a general statement here but I think a lot of people around here conflate criticism of Mangini with malice towards him.  It is possible to be critical of an artist's performances or styles while still liking them personally and respecting their body of work.

I think MP's compositional skills are superior and also he can sing while playing all his parts. That's tough to do. Not sure MM can do that. Maybe but I don't know. Style wise, I prefer MP's approach over MM's  but I have deep respect for both guys.

[darkshade]

Seriously, I don’t understand why MM sound is brought to LTE thread.

This is easy to answer.

LTE3 has less to do with the project itself than with MP + JR + JP collaborating again.  Which leads us to the absence of MP in DT (as always), which leads us to MM, the usurper. 

Just an ordinary day at "DT World".

MP+JP+JR IS the sound of DT post-Kevin Moore.

[ytserush]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

To me, Tony Levin is the secret sauce of this project.  He is on my Mount Rushmore of bass players on the strength alone of the first two LTE albums.  Okay, his work with Peter Gabriel and on King Crimson's Discipline gets a huge assist, but the LTE albums are what make him an all-time bad ass bassist (for me).

I LOVE his work in Liquid Tension Experiment but that stuff is far from his best work, Many of his solo projects, other collaborations, and yes, King Crimson are much better examples of his work for me. He's definitely a guy that excels more in a live setting for me.

[Nekov]

You know, it would be great if we could avoid MP vs. MM discussions in a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with one of them.

Yes, and in order for that to happen, I'd like to respectfully mention that Tony Levin is giving everyone in the band a run for their money (and he's 74, shreds like a maniac, lovely)

To me, Tony Levin is the secret sauce of this project.  He is on my Mount Rushmore of bass players on the strength alone of the first two LTE albums.  Okay, his work with Peter Gabriel and on King Crimson's Discipline gets a huge assist, but the LTE albums are what make him an all-time bad ass bassist (for me).

I LOVE his work in Liquid Tension Experiment but that stuff is far from his best work, Many of his solo projects, other collaborations, and yes, King Crimson are much better examples of his work for me. He's definitely a guy that excels more in a live setting for me.

I think you need to look at all of his work to really appreciate just how good he really is. He has amazing technique but he can also play some groovy lines. I also agree that the live aspect is huge with him. I remember the first time I saw him live with stick men and they played relentless, I was blown out of my seat. I then looked for the album version of the song and it didn't sound half as amazing as it was live.

[goo-goo]

Check out Stick Men for very sweet TLev bass (stick) grooves.

[darkshade]

Another cool, interesting album with Tony Levin on bass is David Torn's album - "cloud about mercury" which also features Bill Bruford on drums.