Are we witnessing the death of the prog epic?

[RoeDent]

DISCLAIMER: This is not to be taken 100% seriously. Artists can do what they want etc.

In recent years, a bunch of bands previously known for including at least one epic on their albums have released albums with no such lengthy tracks, or just barely above the 10-minute marker.

Exhibit A: Spock's Beard. Of their last two albums, the longest track is around 10:30-ish.

Exhibit B: The Flower Kings: Their most recent album has no 10+ tracks, and on their previous one, the longest track barely broke 10m.

Exhibit C: Transatlantic. Perhaps the ultimate example that the prog epic may be dying out. When Neal Morse of all people fails to incorporate at least one big epic, especially with a band for whom the 25-30 minute epic is their bread and butter...it's a death knell.

[Buddyhunter1]

You might be over-dramatizing things a bit, but I do think prog (especially prog metal) has definitely shifted towards shorter songs over the past decade. The new blueprint seems to be short but technical songs, i.e. Leprous, TesseracT, VOLA, etc. I think streaming has had at least a partial hand on this, as bands get the same amount of money from 1 listen of a 20 minute song as they do from 1 listen of a 2 minute song.

[The Walrus]

no

I've listened to countless records this year with epic length tracks, into the 20 minute range

Your examples while valid are only 3 and they're concerning longtime bands apparently departing from a trend but there are countless smaller prog bands releasing songs that are much longer than they have any right to be

no

[HOF]

I don’t think there need to be too many 20+ minute epics in the world in general. I think 10+ is a good range for a lot of prog bands, and really classic Prog songs tended to pack a lot into even less than that. Look at some of the major prog originators, and not only did they write a lot of songs that were less than 10 minutes, they wrote relatively few side long epics. Rush had like three. Genesis really only has one. King Crimson had one. Yes had a few more maybe (not super familiar with their catalog).

There are some bands/artists who are really good at the longer songs (Big Big Train pull it off well, in the past both Neal Morse and Roine Stolt have had some crackers), but I don’t think it is a bad thing if those types of songs are more of a rarity or special occasion.

[Crow]

no you just aren't looking in the right places probably
i mean for one haken had a 5-part epic on their latest album. 20+ minutes isn't the standard for an epic imo, it's more around like the 15ish minute range?
the new rannoch album had like a 35ish minute epic split across a number of tracks but it's an epic all the same
17 minute epic on kall's recent album brand
practically every other album i get seems to have a 12-14ish minute tracks on it nowadays
for what it's worth generally 20+ minute songs are too long anyways, or stop feeling like a single song, but... people are gonna be making long prog epics for as long as the genre exists

[Ben_Jamin]

If we define epic. It's an extended narrative that describes a heroes journey. In the case of music, it's a song that tells a narrative of the heros journey. Where one sets out to find a solution to the problem, and finding that end. Instrumentally told through the music.

There are short Epics, and long epics. A short epic I would consider like Helloween - Keeper Of The Seven Keys.

Others extended their Epics into a full album, known as concept albums.

So no, they are not dying out.

[The Letter M]

If we're talking about the "traditional" side-length prog epic, usually in the 15-25 minute range, then...eh, no, not really.

The Tangent's latest album from a couple of months ago has the massive 28:16 epic, "Lie Back And Think Of England". And actually, almost every Tangent album features at least one side-length epic.

Pattern-Seeking Animals' second album, Prehensile Tales, features a 17-minute epic "Lifeboat".

The aforementioned Haken album, Virus, features the 5-part 17-minute "Messiah Complex".

IQ released Resistance last year, and it features three songs over 15 minutes long, including "The Great Spirit Way" at 21:44 and "Fallout" at 19:54.

Hasse Froberg & Musical Companion's 2019 album, Parallel Life, features the opening title track at 21:46.

But if you're just focusing on Neal and Roine, then yeah, probably. Sure, they were well known for their epics in the 90s and early 00s, but since then, especially Neal, they've really focused on making just great music, regardless of song length. But if you look elsewhere, many other artists and bands are producing epics of varying lengths, you just need to know where to look!

-Marc.

[Stadler]

Well, Wild Ranger, I think....

I don't agree with the premise.  Look at Marillion's last album.  And while it's not "one 30-minute piece", you've got double album concept epics from The Neal Morse Band, and an entire album concept from Transatlantic.  Hell, even Iron Maiden put a 20-minute song on their latest record. 

[TAC]

Well, Wild Ranger, I think....

Was thinking the same thing.

[KevShmev]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

[TAC]

Fun fact: I've never heard a Spock's Beard song.

[The Letter M]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

Sure, not counting "Falling For Forever" on their compilation from 2015. Now granted, I feel like 20 is an average, but I would count songs like "From The Darkness" and "Jaws Of Heaven" as side-length epics since they literally need a whole side of vinyl to fit. And depending on who you ask, "A Flash Before My Eyes" might be a song, though some would consider it a suite, but does that make it less of an "epic"?

Also, The Flower Kings hasn't had a 20+ minute epic in a studio album in 13 years, which is half of their existence as a band.

-Marc.

[425]

Also, The Flower Kings hasn't had a 20+ minute epic in a studio album in 13 years, which is half of their existence as a band.

-Marc.

Numbers from Banks of Eden?

[The Letter M]

Also, The Flower Kings hasn't had a 20+ minute epic in a studio album in 13 years, which is half of their existence as a band.

-Marc.

Numbers from Banks of Eden?

 

See, I always forget about BOE...oops. Okay so it's only been 8 years, but STILL, just 1 side-length tune in 8 years out of four albums when in their first 8 years as a band, they released at least 5 across 7 albums.

I think outside of Transatlantic's Kaleidoscope, the only other side-length tunes Roine has been a part of were on the Anderson/Stolt album.

-Marc.

[Elite]

No

[ariich]

No, but I think we may be increasingly seeing them presented as "suites" across multiple tracks for the purposes of streaming.

Also your exhibits A and C aren't very compelling. Spock's Beard have had lots of albums with no songs longer than 10:30 (going back as far as Day For Night in 1999), and TA had The Whirlwind which seems similar in structure to the new one.

[kirksnosehair]

Fun fact: I've never heard a Spock's Beard song.

    If you are a fan of Transatlantic or The Flower Kings I would urge you to check out the first 6 Spock's Beard albums post haste 




If you are NOT a fan of Transatlantic or The Flower Kings then you're probably not missing anything.

[King Postwhore]

Fun fact: I've never heard a Spock's Beard song.

Fun Fact:  We're not shocked.

[Elite]

I've never seen a single episode of Star Trek, but I do know what Spock looks like.

[The Walrus]

I'm gonna go compile a list of all the 10+ minute songs I've heard this year now because of this thread 

Okay here. First the prog songs:

Karfagen - Birds of Passage (Part 1) [22:41]
Karfagen - Birds of Passage (Part 2) [21:12]
Sons of Apollo - New World Today [15:51]
M-Opus - Infinite Within [23:47]
Nektar - Love Is / The Other Side [17:57]
Thematic - This Golden Day [11:55]
Marco Grieco - Winter [14:51]
Dakesis - Fractures [15:12]
Steam Theory - Passages [11:39]
Chimpan A - Stars [10:04]
Amuzeum - The Challenge [11:22]
Amuzeum - Carousel [12:12]
Pattern-Seeking Animals - Lifeboat [17:20]
Pattern-Seeking Animals - Soon but Not Today [12:03]
Caligula's Horse - The Ascent [10:43]
Guillaume Perret - Poseidonis [11:47]
Vespero - Urizen [11:48]
Vespero - The Emanation of the Giant Albion [21:03]
This Will Destroy You - Dining Room [14:48]
This Will Destroy You - Garden [21:41]
Pyramid Theorem - Beyond the Exosphere [17:53]
Gazpacho - Space Cowboy [19:41]
Gazpacho - Sapien [15:22]
Bulb - Borthelcash (April Fools) [11:51]
Soul Secret - Breathe and Recover [13:00]
Fates Warning - The Longest Shadow of the Day [11:29]

then a bunch of non-prog stuff from death/power metal all the way to indie stuff and slightly proggy stuff:

Frigoris - Die Gleise an denen wir starven II (...in Stille) [12:37]
Grey Skies Fallen - Visions from the Last Sunset [11:04]
Grey Skies Fallen - Picking up the Pieces [11:21]
Grey Skies Fallen - After the Summer Comes the Fall [10:24]
Pat Metheny - America Undefined [13:22]
Demons & Wizards - Children of Cain [10:07]
Death the Leveller - The Golden Bough [12:05]
Burden of Life - The Makeshift Conqueror, Pt. II [10:49]
Huntsmen - The Swallow [10:42]
Dyssidia - Good Grief [10:39]
Pure Reason Revolution - Silent Genesis [10:20]
Pure Reason Revolution - Eupnea [13:23]
Nightwish - All the Works of Nature Which Adorn the World [30:58]
Loviatar - Lightless [10:25]
Band of Rain - Petrichor [12:11]
Fairyland - Of Hope and Despair in Osyrhia [12:02]
sleepmakeswaves - the endings that we write [11:27]
Damnation Angels - Remnants of a Dying Star [12:59]
Fellwarden - Wreathed in Mourncloud [10:35]
Fellwarden - An Elder Reckoning [11:42]
Fellwarden - Upon Stone [12:38]
Memories of Old - The Zeramin Game [14:03]
Anna von Hausswolff - All Thoughts Fly [12:23]
Sufjan Stevens - America [12:30]
Emyn Muil - Halls of the Fallen [10:50]
Trident - Schaman [10:43]
Lords of Black - Alchemy of Souls [10:23]

So no, prog epics/epic songs in general are going nowhere

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

In general I might feel that the general public might prefer shorter songs and especially the younger generation with it's attention span of 2-3 mins or less.
However the general public have never cared about prog ever so it dosen't really matter. 

[RoeDent]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

But they've had A Guy Named Sid (20') and A Flash Before My Eyes (31'). In fact, AFBME is their longest epic ever.

[KevShmev]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

But they've had A Guy Named Sid (20') and A Flash Before My Eyes (31'). In fact, AFBME is their longest epic ever.

Neither of those are one track, but I suspect you know that already.

[0u81234]

Witherfall-“Vintage” or “We are Nothing”. Both off of A Prelude to Sorrow. They apparently have one too on their upcoming record that is 15mins+

[Kwyjibo]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

But they've had A Guy Named Sid (20') and A Flash Before My Eyes (31'). In fact, AFBME is their longest epic ever.

Neither of those are one track, but I suspect you know that already.

By that definition and omitting Falling For Forever, Spock's Beard has only two songs longer than 20 minutes, so not so surprising that there wasn't one for a long time.

[The Walrus]

There's a 10 minute track and a 20 minute song on the new Kepler Ten too

I mean they're not good but they're there

[RoeDent]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

But they've had A Guy Named Sid (20') and A Flash Before My Eyes (31'). In fact, AFBME is their longest epic ever.

Neither of those are one track, but I suspect you know that already.

But they are one song. They should never have been split. One of prog's great disgraces and sellings-out to the commerciality is when artists split their great epics.

[HOF]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

But they've had A Guy Named Sid (20') and A Flash Before My Eyes (31'). In fact, AFBME is their longest epic ever.

Neither of those are one track, but I suspect you know that already.

But they are one song. They should never have been split. One of prog's great disgraces and sellings-out to the commerciality is when artists split their great epics.

I think A Guy Named Sid would have been fine as one track, but I’m glad they split A Flash Before My Eyes. Those are really individual songs anyway, and She Is Everything especially stands well on its own. Also allows me to skip over Surfing Down the Avalanche which I’ve never liked.

[Kwyjibo]

Yep, A Guy Named Sid feels more like one songs, A Flash Before My Eyes more like a suite of songs.

And then not every long song is an epic.

[RoeDent]

I love watching people get in a tizz all over something trivial. You all look pretty daft now. You're welcome.

Also I'm right and you all fucking know it.

[King Postwhore]

Know what?

[roa71]

I think streaming plays a huge role in this.  I think shorter tracks lead to more streaming revenue.  If you have 20 tracks as opposed to one, your music is more likely to pop up in random shuffles and end up on playlists. 

Just speculation on my part, but the long, 30 min track is probably heard less than the smaller tracks.

[Buddyhunter1]

I love watching people get in a tizz all over something trivial. You all look pretty daft now. You're welcome.

Also I'm right and you all fucking know it.

So why did you make this thread then?

[The Letter M]

Fun fact: Spock's Beard hasn't had a track of 20 minutes or longer on a studio album in 20 years.

But they've had A Guy Named Sid (20') and A Flash Before My Eyes (31'). In fact, AFBME is their longest epic ever.

Neither of those are one track, but I suspect you know that already.

But they are one song. They should never have been split. One of prog's great disgraces and sellings-out to the commerciality is when artists split their great epics.

I think A Guy Named Sid would have been fine as one track, but I’m glad they split A Flash Before My Eyes. Those are really individual songs anyway, and She Is Everything especially stands well on its own. Also allows me to skip over Surfing Down the Avalanche which I’ve never liked.

What about "As Far As The Mind Can See"? Everyone always seems to forget about that one. Between that, AFBME and AGNS, as well as the two longer songs on X, the Nick-Era definitely had more epic-length songs than the Neal-Era (if you just count The Water, THCOS, and TGN).

-Marc.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Haken just released Virus this year, which has the 17 minute long Messiah Complex. Last year Tool released Fear Inoculum, which only has one song under ten minutes. I think ringing the death bell on prog epics might be a bit much. Plus, with Dream Theater writing, there’s always a chance that we get another 20-plus minute song for us to unfairly compare to ACoS and 8vm. They haven’t had a song over 10 minutes since Illumination Theory seven years ago so they’re due.