Author Topic: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread  (Read 26257 times)

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1155 on: March 01, 2021, 10:18:12 AM »

Those pictures are all in the eye of beholder.  If you're prone to mock Trump and anyone who doesn't share your disdain for him, then sure, it's "mentally ill" and that's "praise".  If you're more prone to be open to multiple interpretations, then maybe not.

Oh no, I meant "mentally ill" in every sense of the phrase, and not using it in a derogatory context like one might the words "retarded" or "gay". I mean those people are truly, clinically, mentally ill.

Even if they are 100% correct in the religion they've chosen to follow, thinking Trump is in anyway an accurate reflection of that belief system is truly insane. Being mentally ill is the only way to believe both the teachings of Jesus Christ AND that Trump is somehow a gift from god to save America from whatever their scary flavor of the week is. Trump is everything the bible said not to be and then some. Being able to ignore that or find justification for it while still saying you're a person of god is insane.

I'm not saying anyone who doesn't show my disdain for Trump is mentally ill. I'm saying that religious people that have convinced themselves that Trump in any way a follower of Christ are mentally ill. They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

But you can't know that about everybody. Everybody has their reasons for doing what they do. And we won't know unless we sit down and converse and listen to their reasoning, regardless of how insane it sounds, and discussing why that person believes that reasoning and what for. And then making them see, that maybe their reasoning is insane and getting them to come to this realization. As I said before, some will get it instantly and some won't until the moment they die no matter how much you do to try and convince them or make them see the light.

That's because that person has their own free will, just like every one of us does.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1156 on: March 01, 2021, 10:27:14 AM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1157 on: March 01, 2021, 01:10:13 PM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to infer intent and thereby mock it, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real? What's the point of mocking it if it's not only not changing the underlying behavior, but reinforcing it?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 01:16:50 PM by Stadler »

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1158 on: March 01, 2021, 01:17:37 PM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to mock it and and infer intent, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real?
We do that all the time in the form of cartoons. I figured it was more than likely not real, and it didn't change the fact that there are any number of dipshits like that who are members of his cult, and deserve to be mocked for it. 
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1159 on: March 01, 2021, 01:24:43 PM »

Those pictures are all in the eye of beholder.  If you're prone to mock Trump and anyone who doesn't share your disdain for him, then sure, it's "mentally ill" and that's "praise".  If you're more prone to be open to multiple interpretations, then maybe not.

Oh no, I meant "mentally ill" in every sense of the phrase, and not using it in a derogatory context like one might the words "retarded" or "gay". I mean those people are truly, clinically, mentally ill.

Even if they are 100% correct in the religion they've chosen to follow, thinking Trump is in anyway an accurate reflection of that belief system is truly insane. Being mentally ill is the only way to believe both the teachings of Jesus Christ AND that Trump is somehow a gift from god to save America from whatever their scary flavor of the week is. Trump is everything the bible said not to be and then some. Being able to ignore that or find justification for it while still saying you're a person of god is insane.

I'm not saying anyone who doesn't show my disdain for Trump is mentally ill. I'm saying that religious people that have convinced themselves that Trump in any way a follower of Christ are mentally ill. They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

Two points, not necessarily directed at you:

- One, I'm sure there's a wedding or funeral somewhere where I was in that similar pose, and for anyone watching, I'm solemn and contemplative, and yet in my head I was thinking about the titties on the woman in the front row/at the head table.

- Two, and far more importantly, that's all out of context.  He doesn't make fun of them, out loud, and he doesn't talk down to them. He's not calling them deplorable.  He doesn't have signs on his lawn that say "I Believe In Science".   He's not calling them "mentally ill" (no offense).   What would you expect?  When the choice is between someone that doesn't give a rat's ass about them and makes no bones about it, and someone that doesn't give a rat's ass about them and at least pays them lip service, why shouldn't they vote for and support the latter?    I don't think some people have quite accepted just how exclusionary the Democratic Party has really become.  I know I don't feel welcome at all by most of the major Democratic candidates, and issue-by-issue, I probably agree with them more than I disagree.   I've been pretty clear over the past five years; I despise Trump, deeply, and didn't vote for him either time, but it was an eyes closed leap of faith both times that I voted Independent.   If I had less faith in Joe Biden to stick to his word - to govern ALL Americans, not just those that voted for him - I would have had to consider voting for Trump.   That's not support for him or advocacy of him, it's a statement of how little faith I have in the far left wing of the Democrat Party.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 01:40:12 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1160 on: March 01, 2021, 01:35:47 PM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to mock it and and infer intent, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real?
We do that all the time in the form of cartoons. I figured it was more than likely not real, and it didn't change the fact that there are any number of dipshits like that who are members of his cult, and deserve to be mocked for it.

I'm struggling with that analogy; there's no reason that that photo can't be a "real life cartoon", I'll give you that, but at least with a cartoon, there's the implicit understanding that it's NOT real, and in fact satire, or political commentary.  Yet with some of this, there's a baseness, a meanness to much of the mocking that as I said above - and with the caveat, Chad, that I DON'T know what anyone is actually thinking - doesn't seem to lend itself to the interpretation that it's meant to send a message of education or illumination to those on the fence or on the other side, but more to exclude, to build camaraderie with those who have already drank the Kool-aid. 

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1161 on: March 01, 2021, 02:18:48 PM »
To be clear, I didn't even catch the 'praising' from the group of people in the mocked up photo with the statue.  My first reaction was looking at it as a photo of people around a Trump statue made of gold, and the ridiculousness of the statue. 
I'm going with shoving your own digits in your bung hole.
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1162 on: March 01, 2021, 03:28:55 PM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to mock it and and infer intent, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real?
We do that all the time in the form of cartoons. I figured it was more than likely not real, and it didn't change the fact that there are any number of dipshits like that who are members of his cult, and deserve to be mocked for it.

So, you're basically saying that the Republican party is a cult and those affiliated with it (or so-called members) are a bunch of dipshits that deserved to mocked.  That's a bold statement.  Even in the context of political humor.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1163 on: March 01, 2021, 03:45:07 PM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to mock it and and infer intent, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real?
We do that all the time in the form of cartoons. I figured it was more than likely not real, and it didn't change the fact that there are any number of dipshits like that who are members of his cult, and deserve to be mocked for it.

So, you're basically saying that the Republican party is a cult and those affiliated with it (or so-called members) are a bunch of dipshits that deserved to mocked.  That's a bold statement.  Even in the context of political humor.
Nope. Not what I said and not what I meant. Not even close, in fact.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1164 on: March 01, 2021, 04:26:55 PM »
 :corn

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1165 on: March 01, 2021, 04:38:46 PM »
They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

The opportunism works both ways though. As you say, he's using those people in the picture as a prop but they're doing the same thing to him. I'll wager there was a melee to end all melees just before that photo was taken to decide who gets to stand closest to him, who gets to lay their hands upon the messiah, who gets to send the picture out to their congregations as proof that Trump personally revealed himself to them. That blonde woman doing a passable 'moment of revelation' face? This time next week her wealth will have increased tenfold. Dude on the far left looking like his cat just got put down? He's wondering how to tell his wife to cancel the new bowling alley they were planning to build in the basement of their church.
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"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline lonestar

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1166 on: March 01, 2021, 07:48:07 PM »
They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

The opportunism works both ways though. As you say, he's using those people in the picture as a prop but they're doing the same thing to him. I'll wager there was a melee to end all melees just before that photo was taken to decide who gets to stand closest to him, who gets to lay their hands upon the messiah, who gets to send the picture out to their congregations as proof that Trump personally revealed himself to them. That blonde woman doing a passable 'moment of revelation' face? This time next week her wealth will have increased tenfold. Dude on the far left looking like his cat just got put down? He's wondering how to tell his wife to cancel the new bowling alley they were planning to build in the basement of their church.

Pretty sure the blonde is Paula White, trump's pastor. She's about as ethical as you'd expect, search YouTube for her speaking in tongues bit, anyone who actually buys that bullshit deserves to lose all their money.

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1167 on: March 01, 2021, 08:26:46 PM »
They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

The opportunism works both ways though. As you say, he's using those people in the picture as a prop but they're doing the same thing to him. I'll wager there was a melee to end all melees just before that photo was taken to decide who gets to stand closest to him, who gets to lay their hands upon the messiah, who gets to send the picture out to their congregations as proof that Trump personally revealed himself to them. That blonde woman doing a passable 'moment of revelation' face? This time next week her wealth will have increased tenfold. Dude on the far left looking like his cat just got put down? He's wondering how to tell his wife to cancel the new bowling alley they were planning to build in the basement of their church.

Pretty sure the blonde is Paula White, trump's pastor. She's about as ethical as you'd expect, search YouTube for her speaking in tongues bit, anyone who actually buys that bullshit deserves to lose all their money.
I'm not sure, but that might be Benny Hinn behind her. He's the only one that looks familiar to me.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1168 on: March 02, 2021, 04:55:46 AM »
They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

The opportunism works both ways though. As you say, he's using those people in the picture as a prop but they're doing the same thing to him. I'll wager there was a melee to end all melees just before that photo was taken to decide who gets to stand closest to him, who gets to lay their hands upon the messiah, who gets to send the picture out to their congregations as proof that Trump personally revealed himself to them. That blonde woman doing a passable 'moment of revelation' face? This time next week her wealth will have increased tenfold. Dude on the far left looking like his cat just got put down? He's wondering how to tell his wife to cancel the new bowling alley they were planning to build in the basement of their church.

Pretty sure the blonde is Paula White, trump's pastor. She's about as ethical as you'd expect, search YouTube for her speaking in tongues bit, anyone who actually buys that bullshit deserves to lose all their money.

Ah yeah, I recognise her now. She's the one who went viral over that demented "I hear a sound of abundance of rain" rant while assuring her flock that the Lord had dispatched angels from heaven, Africa (?) and South America (?) to secure a Trump victory (the angels must have got lost along the way). The flock just needed to send a liiiiiiiiiittle bit more cash to help Stop The Steal.

I agree that a fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place but at the same time I do have some sympathy for vulnerable and ignorant people who are preyed upon by leeches like her (and the rest of them of course, none more so than Kenneth Copeland with his private jets, sprawling mansions and 300 million dollar net worth).
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1169 on: March 02, 2021, 08:03:51 AM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to mock it and and infer intent, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real?
We do that all the time in the form of cartoons. I figured it was more than likely not real, and it didn't change the fact that there are any number of dipshits like that who are members of his cult, and deserve to be mocked for it.

So, you're basically saying that the Republican party is a cult and those affiliated with it (or so-called members) are a bunch of dipshits that deserved to mocked.  That's a bold statement.  Even in the context of political humor.
Nope. Not what I said and not what I meant. Not even close, in fact.

Well, then I'm gonna need ya to go ahead and clarify that for me.  Whaddaya think?

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1170 on: March 02, 2021, 08:07:26 AM »
I agree that a fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place but at the same time I do have some sympathy for vulnerable and ignorant people who are preyed upon by leeches like her (and the rest of them of course, none more so than Kenneth Copeland with his private jets, sprawling mansions and 300 million dollar net worth).
Yeah, but we all know that Jesus didn't really mean "blessed are the poor" and "woe for the rich." He actually meant the exact opposite.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1171 on: March 02, 2021, 08:13:42 AM »
They think Trump is actually praying with them when he bows his head. They're getting taken for a ride and being used as political props for points.

The opportunism works both ways though. As you say, he's using those people in the picture as a prop but they're doing the same thing to him. I'll wager there was a melee to end all melees just before that photo was taken to decide who gets to stand closest to him, who gets to lay their hands upon the messiah, who gets to send the picture out to their congregations as proof that Trump personally revealed himself to them. That blonde woman doing a passable 'moment of revelation' face? This time next week her wealth will have increased tenfold. Dude on the far left looking like his cat just got put down? He's wondering how to tell his wife to cancel the new bowling alley they were planning to build in the basement of their church.

But you don't need words like "messiah" to make the essence of your statement true.

I have a sort of unofficial list; things that I'm probably never, ever going to do but aren't so wild that they border on fantasy (Margot Robbie, looking at ogling you!).  One is meeting a President.  I know a couple people that have, and the three I'm closest to, even though none of them are all that sentimental or emotional as people, they all speak in almost reverential tones about the experience.    Two met and spoke with Bill Clinton, and both were almost extreme in their description of his charisma and his ability to make you feel you were the only person in the room, and the only person he cared about.   The other was, I think, four, and the two he spoke of most - Bush and Reagan - were very similar.   If I was given the opportunity ro meet and be on a podium with and have pictures taken with a President - yes, even Trump - and the bargain was I "pray" with him, I'm taking it.  Sorry, but I am.

Remember the conversations with... what was his name; lived in Indiana, posted on MP and Facepalm for a while then disappeared.  Blanking on his screen name (I remember his real name, though).  Had Norm McDonnell in a big foam stetson as his avatar.  He DESPISED Tom Brady. Thought he ought to be executed - I'm not sure, but I think literally - for Deflategate.   I tried to convince him that Brady didn't HAVE to be involved.  He was a celebrity, he was a leader, he was the lynchpin of those Patriots teams.  People wanted to "do" for him unbidden, and curry favor.   To this day I maintain, since I've seen it on the corporate level too many times to count, that all Brady had to do was make his preference known and someone, somewhere was going to make it happen.   Most often that's legally or at least quasi-legally, in Brady's case, the dude was a dumbass.   It's no different for a President.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1172 on: March 02, 2021, 08:15:03 AM »
Lol... Says a lot about the state of things that it didn't surprise any of us as real.

What unfortunately didn't surprise me was that there were so many people here didn't care in the least that it WASN'T real.

"didn't surprise" =/= "didn't care".  As you often say, don't infer what's going on in my head.   :lol

I'm sticking by my words; people took time out of their busy days to mock it and and infer intent, but none of that group bothered to mention it wasn't - or might not have been - real.  What's the point of mocking it if it's not real?
We do that all the time in the form of cartoons. I figured it was more than likely not real, and it didn't change the fact that there are any number of dipshits like that who are members of his cult, and deserve to be mocked for it.

So, you're basically saying that the Republican party is a cult and those affiliated with it (or so-called members) are a bunch of dipshits that deserved to mocked.  That's a bold statement.  Even in the context of political humor.
Nope. Not what I said and not what I meant. Not even close, in fact.

Well, then I'm gonna need ya to go ahead and clarify that for me.  Whaddaya think?
"Any number of" is not the same as "all republicans." To the tiny extent that there even still is a republican party, not all of them are members of the cult. From within that group there are plenty of them that will worship at the golden altar of Trump, though. Those are cult members and, quite frankly, dipshits. I've said in the past that I have no qualms about people who voted for Trump in 2016. There were valid reasons. Anybody who watched his childish antics for four years and still thinks he's anything other than a clown needs to have their head checked. Maybe Kevin Moore will offer a discount to DTF members.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1173 on: April 07, 2021, 09:09:29 PM »
most of us have probably never had an issue with presenting a government issued photo id anywhere we've been asked,   but it is a real problem for a lot of  people.

This NPR piece is from 2018 and it mentions Georgia EVEN THEN has having especially strict ID requirements: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-getting-the-right-id-can-be-especially-tough

Bottom line is, if these laws prevent or discourage more people from voting than they prevent instances of voter fraud, they're not worth it. 

Offline lordxizor

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1174 on: April 08, 2021, 05:50:01 AM »
most of us have probably never had an issue with presenting a government issued photo id anywhere we've been asked,   but it is a real problem for a lot of  people.

This NPR piece is from 2018 and it mentions Georgia EVEN THEN has having especially strict ID requirements: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-getting-the-right-id-can-be-especially-tough

Bottom line is, if these laws prevent or discourage more people from voting than they prevent instances of voter fraud, they're not worth it. 
Especially since it's trying to fix a problem (voter fraud) that is pretty much a non-issue. In theory I don't have a problem with requiring some sort of ID as long as the ID is free to receive and extremely easy to obtain. Neither of these is true in my state when it comes to getting an ID.

In Minnesota, you just walk up and tell them your name and address if you're already registered. If you're not registered you need ID or other documents proving you live where you do or you can simply have a neighbor vouch for you. The potential for fraud is pretty big, yet I've not heard of more than a case or two of someone impersonating another person at the polls. The reward (a single extra vote for a candidate) versus the amount of time and prep work required to place a false vote just doesn't make sense at a scale that would actually sway an election.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1175 on: April 08, 2021, 06:51:37 AM »
most of us have probably never had an issue with presenting a government issued photo id anywhere we've been asked,   but it is a real problem for a lot of  people.

This NPR piece is from 2018 and it mentions Georgia EVEN THEN has having especially strict ID requirements: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-getting-the-right-id-can-be-especially-tough

Bottom line is, if these laws prevent or discourage more people from voting than they prevent instances of voter fraud, they're not worth it. 
Especially since it's trying to fix a problem (voter fraud) that is pretty much a non-issue.
Exactly.  Voter ID is a solution in search of a problem.  There is absolutely no need for it.  elections have functioned just fine without it for almost 250 years, and individual voter fraud is statistically not a thing. 
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1176 on: April 08, 2021, 08:34:29 AM »
I don't think voting laws will make people want to vote.

There are people that for whatever reason, choose not to vote. And that is a little more than 35% of the total eligible registered voters, that didn't vote.

No ID laws will change their minds. To them, it's part of the system that they feel voting doesn't matter in the end, since it's already rigged for whomever they want in.

It's even funnier when you begin to look at the Trump Votes, and the how and why he ended up becoming president.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1177 on: April 08, 2021, 08:38:42 AM »
most of us have probably never had an issue with presenting a government issued photo id anywhere we've been asked,   but it is a real problem for a lot of  people.

This NPR piece is from 2018 and it mentions Georgia EVEN THEN has having especially strict ID requirements: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/07/644648955/for-older-voters-getting-the-right-id-can-be-especially-tough

Bottom line is, if these laws prevent or discourage more people from voting than they prevent instances of voter fraud, they're not worth it. 
Especially since it's trying to fix a problem (voter fraud) that is pretty much a non-issue.
Exactly.  Voter ID is a solution in search of a problem.  There is absolutely no need for it.  elections have functioned just fine without it for almost 250 years, and individual voter fraud is statistically not a thing.

I don't know where you live, but I've lived in:  CT, PA, GA, and NC, and voted in all four placed. EVERY SINGLE TIME I've voted I had to make some third party affirmation that I was who I said I was.

"Voter fraud" might not be a pervasive problem, but I would argue it's not because there are reasonable controls in place to keep it from being that.   The GA law is NOT, in my opinion, that restrictive, unless your standard is just so one-sided as to object to ANY obligations of living in an organized society.  It actually only applies to getting an ABSENTEE BALLOT, not the actual vote.    And it does allow for a FREE IDENTIFICATION, as issued from the county registrar.

At some point, we have to address that "being treated equal" isn't just about the "right" (in quotes because it's not a right) to never be "offended".   Part of it is also having to jump through the same hoops as anyone else that isn't afforded minority status.   

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1178 on: April 08, 2021, 08:54:12 AM »
or maybe in this specific case there shouldn’t be as many hoops for anyone.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1179 on: April 08, 2021, 09:12:11 AM »
or maybe in this specific case there shouldn’t be as many hoops for anyone.
So it's cool if I vote in Florida next time?   My vote - which isn't going to Richard Blumenthal or Chris Murphy regardless of which party they are in, but who win by big margins each election - isn't moving the needle in Connecticut, but maybe it would in Florida.  Or Georgia.  I'm no fan of Warnock; maybe my vote CAN make a difference.  I should just vote there, why not?   Request an absentee ballot, and vote away.  I went there once on a business trip; that should entitle me to vote, no?  It wouldn't show up as "voter fraud" per se, since I'm not voting twice, but it would change the game in terms of how the demographic plays out.   Or maybe, since there are limited state funds available, I should vote NO to that new school in Greenwich, because that would mean more funds for me and my town.  Wouldn't it be great if all the sexual assault survivors across the U.S. voted in absentia against Matt Gaetz?  Or all the Native Americans who were pissed off at Liz Warren's appropriation of their pain exacted their revenge on the Massachusetts Senator, just out of principle?

Let's get rid of ALL hoops.  Maybe we should let the Russians vote too; I could have sworn, listening to Hillary and Adam Schiff, that Russian involvement was bad, but why not?  We're a global player, they should have a say, no?   And since we're not going to require anyone to prove who they are - that's RACIST! - it's only fair.  Have that absentee ballot sent to a P.O. Box and they can select which jurisdiction they think they'll have the biggest impact.   Hell, if we get rid of the electoral college, that won't matter either, they can just vote from wherever they want!  YAY, democracy! 

Except we're not, technically, a democracy. We are a representative democratic republic. 

Look, elections have consequences; we've heard that ad infinitum for four+ years now.  If anything, Trump should be a lesson that we need to do things the RIGHT WAY, and even if the RIGHT WAY is the HARD WAY, it's worth it in the long run.   I'm a citizen; I pay my taxes.   In exchange for that, I have some faith in the system that the protocols we've adopted to reflect the boundaries of our towns, our counties our states, our nation, will be respected to a modest and fair degree.   I don't think it's "racist" - and I don't think it's fair to call it "racist" even if there is a correlation in terms of who has to make more of an effort at the startup - to ask that as part of that bargain, if I'm going to have my tax dollars taken and my rights - ACTUAL rights, not propaganda rights - taken/restricted, it be done by candidates that have been elected duly by citizens of this country who have done their part in the social contract we've established.  Just because it hasn't happened in big numbers in the past, doesn't mean it can't happen in the future, especially as technology increases.  We didn't see Trump coming in 1990 either.

And not for nothing, but the sanctimony has to end; we live in a two-party system, more or less, and votes ARE a zero sum game.  If a measure helps the Republicans, by definition it hurts the Democrats and vice versa.  This isn't about "being heard", or "rights".  It is beyond discussion that even though voting is a fundamental right, the state has the right to place reasonable restrictions on the time, place, and manner of voting if there is a compelling state interest.   So that's a red herring; this is about opposing measures that would make the possibility of a Trump or even a Biden (that is to say, a compromise candidate) that much lesser. Fair enough, the vote is the vote, but if I'm going to honor the vote and subvert my rights, privileges and political needs to a candidate that not only doesn't reflect my values, but also doesn't give a SHIT about me, I think I have the right to make sure that the people that SELECTED that person to represent us be my peers in terms of geography, tax contributions, and "citizenship" (that sounds more xenophobic than I mean it; I don't mean that in an immigration sense), regardless of their skin color.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 09:20:09 AM by Stadler »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1180 on: April 08, 2021, 09:18:14 AM »
And yet, there is still no need for voter ID laws.
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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1181 on: April 08, 2021, 09:19:36 AM »
No system is perfect. Systems are always flawed. And systems become obsolete that new systems need to be implemented, or the old system needs a retweaking.

What I would like to know is how hard is it to get an ID in Georgia? Because when I went to ProgPower, I saw many minorites in the clubs, and bars. They got an ID perfectly fine.

The hoops are there because things happened to where they need to instill those hoops.

And sadly, due to the system of laws we live in called American Law, it's the process we have to follow.

And the rulers of the laws can use it to control those they deem, unworthy. I don't get how people think because the civil rights act was passed that it immediately removed Racism from existence. It hasn't even been a hundred years, and the generation that instills those thoughts and ideals are still alive. Until that generation dies off, then the future generations can change it and rework the system. Doesn't help either when these old farts don't want to hand the reigns over.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1182 on: April 08, 2021, 09:22:13 AM »
And yet, there is still no need for voter ID laws.

I know you're the Hef-Daddy, and you live under a different standard than the rest of us, but you saying it doesn't make it so.  I think I've outlined more than a handful of legitimate reasons for voter ID laws.   They aren't just limited to national Presidential elections.

EDIT:  And that's not at all to reinforce the fact that most of the people complaining about the Georgia law have little clue - beyond what they're told by the activists they follow, who have a vested interest in inspiring them to rebellion - what the law ACTUALLY asks for.

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1183 on: April 08, 2021, 09:27:24 AM »
And yet, there is still no need for voter ID laws.

I know you're the Hef-Daddy, and you live under a different standard than the rest of us, but you saying it doesn't make it so.  I think I've outlined more than a handful of legitimate reasons for voter ID laws.   They aren't just limited to national Presidential elections.

It's why I want to ask...Do you live there? If not then why are you trying to change laws and ways that do not affect you at all?

It's the rude awakening those people that moved to Texas, dealt with when they got there and during the Winter Weathér that shut down the state. Why would they move to another town and change their laws, instead of staying in California and doing something to change those laws. Like the high price of housing and all that other crap that made those Californians leave.

Not everyone has those opportunities to pack their bags and split. That a privilege afforded to those whom have the necessities to do so.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1184 on: April 08, 2021, 10:01:42 AM »
I would refer to the NPR link I posted to see examples of who has difficulty getting IDs

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1185 on: April 08, 2021, 10:47:30 AM »
Even if the hoops are the same that doesn't mean they're not discriminatory. If I put a few steps in the checkout lane at the local Kroger, it's the same hoop for everybody with no discrimination, but the effect will differ with the individual. Just ask somebody in a wheelchair. I know of several people who have zero need for a state ID. I'm guessing that applies to everybody. How many of us know somebody who hasn't driven in years, and will never drive again? Parents, maybe, as we get older? While plenty of people wouldn't have too much trouble getting to the DMV to get a new ID, a lot of people would, and I suspect you'll see a racial and social discrepancy between the haves and have-nots. Poverty? Internet access? Access to alternative transportation? Well informed and intentioned friends and family who will tell you that this is even necessary now? And if we're being honest, all of us, even those playing devil's advocate, know damn well that is the object of the exercise. Bill, do you really believe that the goal of such laws is to maintain the integrity of the election? Do you think this actually accomplishes that?

I'd say that when it comes to the necessity of these sorts of laws, the cure demonstrates the lack thereof. Individual voter fraud simply doesn't matter compared to systemic disenfranchisement. 

And if we want to talk about misinformation, I'd say that the right has the far greater role in that. I've no doubt that a lot people don't really know what the Atlanta law really says, aside from what they're being told, but I also know that plenty of people are dead certain that thousands of wetbacks are lining up at every polling site to vote democrat. While I can't forgive the people who don't understand this law, I'll say that their ignorance at least randomly falls on the side of reality, as we all know what the purpose of this law really is. The people who're convinced that 10% of Biden voters voted illegally are not only suckers (get out your checkbook, President Trump needs you!), their ignorance greatly compounds the problem they claim to want to prevent.
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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1186 on: April 08, 2021, 11:46:23 AM »
Even if the hoops are the same that doesn't mean they're not discriminatory. If I put a few steps in the checkout lane at the local Kroger, it's the same hoop for everybody with no discrimination, but the effect will differ with the individual. Just ask somebody in a wheelchair. I know of several people who have zero need for a state ID. I'm guessing that applies to everybody. How many of us know somebody who hasn't driven in years, and will never drive again? Parents, maybe, as we get older? While plenty of people wouldn't have too much trouble getting to the DMV to get a new ID, a lot of people would, and I suspect you'll see a racial and social discrepancy between the haves and have-nots. Poverty? Internet access? Access to alternative transportation? Well informed and intentioned friends and family who will tell you that this is even necessary now? And if we're being honest, all of us, even those playing devil's advocate, know damn well that is the object of the exercise. Bill, do you really believe that the goal of such laws is to maintain the integrity of the election? Do you think this actually accomplishes that?

I'd say that when it comes to the necessity of these sorts of laws, the cure demonstrates the lack thereof. Individual voter fraud simply doesn't matter compared to systemic disenfranchisement.

Maybe not "fraud" in the sense of what Trump was screaming about, but there IS fraud in the sense of elections being more than just the sum of the actual votes tallied by honest, well-meaning citizens.   1,000 people voted twice in Georgia last year.  FACT.   Whether it was with malicious intent or not doesn't matter, it HAPPENED.   And most of the studies that address voter fraud - as distinguished between ELECTION fraud - focus only on the duplicity of votes.  How do we even TRACK whether people voted outside their district, or in the name of someone else? 

This article goes into a little about the difference between voter fraud and election fraud, and does a good job of showing why the identification of a particular voter is paramount and necessary to election integrity (the part about the necessity for accurate voter rolls) even while conceding that some of the strict voter ID laws are discriminatory.   

I think it's like anything else we do as a nation.   To me, in terms of the consideration of rights, and the efficacy of that concern, there is little difference between the voter ID laws we're discussing and, say, gun registration laws.   You're targeting, with a heavy blanket, an entire mass of people for the wrong-doing of a very select few.  But the alternative is no more attractive.  I've given example after example after example on this very forum why gun bans and restrictions don't solve the problem, but it hasn't moved the needle even a little bit.  I'll spare you the math, but using data from this article, as rare as "voter fraud" is, it happens more than guns are used in mass killing events in any given year.   For every argument against the perceived "motivations" of the Republicans - which I don't know for certain and don't really care about - there is an argument for the perceived "motivations" of the Democrats - which I also don't know for certain and don't care about.  But I DO care about one "sides" perceptions getting unfair advantage when it comes to elections that impact all of us in various ways.  From that NPR article Xe cited (which is excellent, by the way): "Studies show that the people who are most likely to be prevented from voting by ID laws are not only low income, but also African-American or another racial minority."  You talked about "motivations": in this study, almost 85% of African Americans are or lean Democrat.  That increases when you factor in income (and education), as per that NPR article.   Dems aren't pushing this, particularly in states like GA where the African American population exceeds the national percentage by almost two and a half times, because of some benign non-partisan interest in "fairness". 

In fact, I sort of like the alternative presented in that Brennan Center article.  Okay, voter ID laws are unduly discriminatory and unfair; let's do a fingerprint at the voting booth, and on the ballot itself if mailed in.  That seems more than fair, no?  We all have fingers, we all have access to something by which we can leave a mark (the forms themselves can likely be manufactured in a way to have a patch that can "record" the fingerprint).   And if nothing else, this will help refine the motivations for/against the reforms across the board.

Quote
And if we want to talk about misinformation, I'd say that the right has the far greater role in that. I've no doubt that a lot people don't really know what the Atlanta law really says, aside from what they're being told, but I also know that plenty of people are dead certain that thousands of wetbacks are lining up at every polling site to vote democrat. While I can't forgive the people who don't understand this law, I'll say that their ignorance at least randomly falls on the side of reality, as we all know what the purpose of this law really is. The people who're convinced that 10% of Biden voters voted illegally are not only suckers (get out your checkbook, President Trump needs you!), their ignorance greatly compounds the problem they claim to want to prevent.

I'm not really going to try to quantify that.   No disrespect to you - at ALL - but I'm not interested in feeding the beast here on the scumbaggery of the Right.   Yeah, they mislead.  So do the Democrats, and that's where it should end.  If you dislike the misinformation, speak up about it whether it's Adam Schiff or Matt Gaetz.  If you're willing to tolerate it when Alexandria says it, then I respectfully think you (generally, not you, Bart) should shut the fuck up when Kevin McCarthy does it.  Since I'm not beholden to the Democratic party - and in fact, think they are hurting as many of their pet issues as they are helping - I don't accept their half-truths either.   

I'm not and never have looked at this as a party issue, and I think we're setting the stages for another Trump here, sooner rather than later.   We know nothing, Jon Snow.  The same bullshit that we saw leading up to 2016 is starting to rear it's ugly head again, and it's NOT going to end well.  And it won't be the fault of the Republicans; it just won't.  It will be POLITICIANS; they are the scorpion in that fable; you KNOW what they are.

And, stump speech aside, I've already addressed this; that it's not happening NOW doesn't mean it WON'T happen, and doesn't mean that it shouldn't be proactively prevented from happening, IF the prevention is reasonable, evenly applied, and doesn't actually prevent the underlying right from being exercised.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 12:08:37 PM by Stadler »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1187 on: April 08, 2021, 01:25:52 PM »
And yet, there is still no need for voter ID laws.

I know you're the Hef-Daddy, and you live under a different standard than the rest of us
I appreciate the recognition.

but you saying it doesn't make it so. 
I mean, I guess so.  But I'm only saying it because it's true.

I think I've outlined more than a handful of legitimate reasons for voter ID laws.   
I disagree.  For me, it comes down to this:  Elections existed without voter ID laws for decades (centuries, really, but for most of that time IDs didn't actually exist like now).  They are laws to, supposedly, prevent a problem.  But it's a problem that ISN'T HAPPENING.  So, if there is no actual reason to pass these laws, what could be the reason that the GOP really wants to pass them?  Hmmm, let me think about that.

EDIT:  And that's not at all to reinforce the fact that most of the people complaining about the Georgia law have little clue - beyond what they're told by the activists they follow, who have a vested interest in inspiring them to rebellion - what the law ACTUALLY asks for.
I can't speak for anyone else, obviously, but I'm talking about the GOP proclivity for ID laws in general, not specifically Georgia.

I'm not and never have looked at this as a party issue
With all due respect, it fucking IS a party issue.  Particularly, a Republican party issue.  You "not looking at it as a party issue" doesn't mean it's not, and is not taking all of the available facts into account.
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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1188 on: April 08, 2021, 01:28:30 PM »
Shouldn't the real fight for voting be legals can vote, illegals can't? 

If you are a citizen, you can vote. Just have multiple documents like license,  ss card, birth certificate ect.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #1189 on: April 08, 2021, 01:41:17 PM »
Shouldn't the real fight for voting be legals can vote, illegals can't? 

If you are a citizen, you can vote. Just have multiple documents like license,  ss card, birth certificate ect.

This is what I thought the Voter ID issue is about?
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