Author Topic: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread  (Read 1676 times)

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Offline DragonAttack

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2020, 09:38:33 AM »
STOP THE (POST) COUNT!

COUNT THE POSTS !!!   :lol

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2020, 09:39:12 AM »
First!

Just like Biden.

Maybe illegally, but if you look at legal posts I'm first.

Guess I’ll just have to be first again (on page 2) .... dammit dragon, why’d you have to ninja me!!
Looking at my most recent posts, it almost seems like I'm trying to become the Common Sense of DTF :lol
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Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2020, 12:09:33 PM »
First!

Just like Biden.

Maybe illegally, but if you look at legal posts I'm first.


There was a briefcase on the second floor of the building that houses this forum's server, and we don't know why it was there or what was in it. I'm challenging this post. See you in court.

Some of these posts were from outside the country. Use that in your filing.  ;)

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2020, 04:16:08 PM »
Part of an issue with independents and Stadler, please jump in here is their visibility.  I think they have to have 7% vote in the primaries to be allowed to join the debates.  So if you don't see them, most people will not do their homework.  Maybe these rules need to change. Independents to not have the deep pocket backing as the Dems & the Reps.
That part can happen, but I think Perot convinced people that it wasn't worth the effort or the expense. He had the grass roots base to get on the stage, as well as on the ballot in all 50 states. That's hard to do. It got him nothing. I don't know how it was up there in Yankee Town, but down here he was very popular. I signed a petition to get him on the ballot at a roadside tent that was booming with business. Like I said, great grass roots support. Can't beat the machine, though.

It was consistent.   Not quite the level of Texas support, but in the ballpark.
It's kind of a shame. Not that he lost, but rather that he was the single best chance we've had to break the two party system, he did quite well, and in the only sense that mattered he got creamed. Ranked voting might be the solution, it would certainly eliminate the wrong lizard voters, but this presumes that TPTB actually want the system fixed. They don't. It's like campaign finance reform, or term limits, or mandatory jail time for corruption. We all claim to want it, but we'll still vote for politicians who will happily say "yeah, fuck all that noise."

I actually like the idea of a ranking system.

Instead of party candidates, you just have one big primary of maybe 10 people and everyone ranks the ones they want to. You pick the top two who got the highest rankings and then you have your two main candidates, then the election is between them.
The way ranked choice voting works, and they did this in Maine this election, is that each voter ranks their first, second, and third choice. If the winner doesn't get a majority, then they drop the last place finisher and try again. Repeat until somebody has a majority. In theory, everybody could select their third party candidate, and have the better of two lizards as their fallback if he doesn't win. The problem now is that unless you're certain that your third party candidate will get 50% of the vote then you're essentially throwing your vote away. People without that certainty pick a lizard.  It essentially takes the gamble out of the process.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2020, 12:30:06 AM »
People forget that the only reason Perot tanked was because he dropped out halfway through the race. He was gaining ground and suddenly just dropped out. Then he suddenly decided he wanted to come back in. He lost all his credibility by dropping out in the first place.
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Offline DragonAttack

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2020, 12:33:21 AM »
Well, in all fairness, his VP was a ....well, he was a whack job.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2020, 02:37:22 PM »
Well, in all fairness, his VP was a ....well, he was a whack job.
Stockdale was bad on television, but he was otherwise solid. He was torpedoed by SNL, and just like Sarah Palin that's what we remember him for. "Who am I! Why am I here!" By all accounts he was sharp, and his life history was really something else.  At least Palin had those tits going for her. The worst thing we can say about him was that he needed a hearing aid, and that's only because of his treatment by Victor Charlie.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2020, 03:00:44 PM »
Seems Chris Christie jumped ship...


Quote
“They allege fraud outside of the courtroom but when they go inside the courtroom they don’t plead fraud and they don’t argue fraud,” Christie said, adding “you have an obligation to present the evidence, the evidence has not been presented.”

Offline emtee

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2020, 04:03:01 AM »
Looking for people's thoughts on this. I think conservatism is gasping for it's final breaths.

90% of the mainstream media leans left. They are the crucial, daily interface. There's a great deal of power and sway held there. Social media also leans hard left. They are now arbiters as well as interface and conduit. There's no easy road ahead. Additionally, society is moving consistently left.

I think it benefits our system when the pendulum swings back and forth. What I see happening over time is that people who are comforted by the thought of conservatism's demise is that the line for acceptability and normalcy--whatever yours is--will eventually be challenged, to the point where you will be concerned.

Biden's presidency will be interesting. He is going to have to negotiate his way through a mine field of far-left ideas. Defund the police, do away with prisons, reparations, free college, free healthcare, on and on. I'm interested to see where we are 4 years from now.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2020, 07:01:42 AM »
Looking for people's thoughts on this. I think conservatism is gasping for it's final breaths.

90% of the mainstream media leans left. They are the crucial, daily interface. There's a great deal of power and sway held there. Social media also leans hard left. They are now arbiters as well as interface and conduit. There's no easy road ahead. Additionally, society is moving consistently left.

I think it benefits our system when the pendulum swings back and forth. What I see happening over time is that people who are comforted by the thought of conservatism's demise is that the line for acceptability and normalcy--whatever yours is--will eventually be challenged, to the point where you will be concerned.

Biden's presidency will be interesting. He is going to have to negotiate his way through a mine field of far-left ideas. Defund the police, do away with prisons, reparations, free college, free healthcare, on and on. I'm interested to see where we are 4 years from now.
I don't know. I think conservatism as we've seen it in the past is dying, but if the Republican party can reinvent itself I think they'll be OK. If they can focus on smaller government, less spending, lower taxes, etc, a lot of people would be on board with that. If they insist on continuing to police morality when it comes to LGBTQ stuff, want to continue to war on drugs, and keep cutting taxes in ways that disproportionately help the ultra rich, they're going to have a hard time resonating with a majority of Americans. And they also need to be very active in distancing themselves from white supremacist organizations that have poisoned their ranks.


Offline ariich

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2020, 07:12:17 AM »
As someone outside the US, I feel pretty confident in saying that conservatism definitely isn't dying in the US. I'm also unconvinced that "90% of mainstream media leans left", other than perhaps by current American standards which is out of kilter with other western democracies.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2020, 07:24:37 AM »
Looking for people's thoughts on this. I think conservatism is gasping for it's final breaths.

90% of the mainstream media leans left. They are the crucial, daily interface. There's a great deal of power and sway held there. Social media also leans hard left. They are now arbiters as well as interface and conduit. There's no easy road ahead. Additionally, society is moving consistently left.

I think it benefits our system when the pendulum swings back and forth. What I see happening over time is that people who are comforted by the thought of conservatism's demise is that the line for acceptability and normalcy--whatever yours is--will eventually be challenged, to the point where you will be concerned.

Biden's presidency will be interesting. He is going to have to negotiate his way through a mine field of far-left ideas. Defund the police, do away with prisons, reparations, free college, free healthcare, on and on. I'm interested to see where we are 4 years from now.

Well, I think about this a lot, actually.  "Conservatism" as an idea isn't - and SHOULDN'T - go anywhere.  It's a necessary part of the process, and a part of the balance.  What will change, though is that "conservatism" as a practice has to change and adapt and mature; there are two aspects to that, one "internal" (to conservatism) and one "external".

Internal:  Just like liberalism, conservatism has to find a way to coexist.   We're in a pendulum swing, as you note, and so emotions are running high, and things have to work on two levels: ideology as public relations, and as pragmatic programs.   "Conservatism" has to define itself less as "just the opposite of everyone else" and establish compassionate, responsive platforms.   One CAN be sympathetic to the plight of the average American, and yet NOT buy into free college, absolving student loan debt, free healthcare, free borders, free this, free that.   That, particularly in the age of Trump, has not happened.  Conservatism can be sensitive to the various elements of our melting pot, without pandering to the special interest du jour.  Politics is not an episode of the "X-Games", and we have to recognize that "radical" on either side is, by it's very nature, polarizing and exclusive. We have to find the inclusive aspect of both ideologies.

External:  The left's positions lend themselves to the nature of the narrative today.  We, Americans, have this fixation with the PERCEPTION of action (as opposed to REAL action) and that's not going to change.  What will change is the power dynamic; both sides will succeed with certain initiatives, and both sides will fail with certain initiatives.  The reactions will be what drive the course of our country.  This is where the divisiveness is so damaging; we NEED the compromise to make the successes more lasting and committed, and the failures to be less stark and obvious (and more of a lesson).  Regardless of what extremists think, we NEED to temper our movements, both ways.  Like Coke needs Pepsi (and they do; this is not up for debate) so the left needs the right.  We need conservative leadership that knows when to give and when to take; it's fine to demand moderation to the more extreme desires of the left wing, but we have to break out of the obstructionism-as-badge-of-honor mindset, and we have to find a way to respond to the human aspect without rancor (put more bluntly, the right has to find a suitable response to the nonsense of "dog whistles" and the prevailing undercurrent of bigotry-by-implication that the left is using as a tactic to morally leverage their ideology).

The pendulum is strong, and it's not going anywhere.   This is partly why I counseled against any Democrat victories being used as vengeance; it's only going to make the rebound that much worse.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2020, 07:26:00 AM »
I also think that if Trump had acted like a normal president/politician for the last 4 years and taken the pandemic just a little more seriously (he wouldn't have needed to go over the top) I think he easily would have won this election. The 2020 election was in large part a referendum on Trump, not of conservatism as a whole.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2020, 07:29:01 AM »
As someone outside the US, I feel pretty confident in saying that conservatism definitely isn't dying in the US. I'm also unconvinced that "90% of mainstream media leans left", other than perhaps by current American standards which is out of kilter with other western democracies.

I'd pay money to actually SEE you say this, face-to-face, so I could read the underlying intent.   The reading of the words on the screen is cold and impersonal, and here has a whiff of judgment to it, a whiff of blame.  What do you see as evidence that "conservativism definitely isn't dying in the U.S."?

I know in my answer, I'm not defining "conservatism" as "one side of a BLM rally in Wisconsin".  I'm defining it in a more classic sense, updated to modern sensibilities.  Not strictly "small government and low spending", but more along the lines of tempered movement, reliance on the existing systems to fight problems within the system, and not relying on "blowing things up" (metaphorically) in order to ram change - whether desire or not, whether well-thought-out or not - through to an unreceptive audience.

Offline Adami

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2020, 07:36:41 AM »
As someone outside the US, I feel pretty confident in saying that conservatism definitely isn't dying in the US. I'm also unconvinced that "90% of mainstream media leans left", other than perhaps by current American standards which is out of kilter with other western democracies.

I'd pay money to actually SEE you say this, face-to-face, so I could read the underlying intent.   The reading of the words on the screen is cold and impersonal, and here has a whiff of judgment to it, a whiff of blame.  What do you see as evidence that "conservativism definitely isn't dying in the U.S."?

I know in my answer, I'm not defining "conservatism" as "one side of a BLM rally in Wisconsin".  I'm defining it in a more classic sense, updated to modern sensibilities.  Not strictly "small government and low spending", but more along the lines of tempered movement, reliance on the existing systems to fight problems within the system, and not relying on "blowing things up" (metaphorically) in order to ram change - whether desire or not, whether well-thought-out or not - through to an unreceptive audience.

I don't really disagree with much of what you said except a bit at the end because, it seems to me, that it necessarily defines liberalism (assuming we're using that as the other side of the coin term) as radical movement bent on destroying the system and blowing things up in order to ram in change. That seems disingenuous.

While I don't think tempered change is always a good thing (some things can't wait years/decades and shouldn't) and I don't believe the system is good enough to always work within itself, I don't think pragmatism (which is what I'm seeing you define in general) is a staple of conservatism as opposed to liberalism. If liberalism was pragmatic, it wouldn't become conservativism.


I actually agree with a lot of what Lordxizor said, and which you (stads) alluded to. If conservativism continues to be a philosophy that exclusively favors (or tries to) white, middle/upper class, straight, Christian men, then they won't and shouldn't last a very long time. If they get back to their core values and drop the morality stuff, I can see them again becoming the mainstay of American politics.
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Offline H2

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2020, 08:17:42 AM »
As someone outside the US, I feel pretty confident in saying that conservatism definitely isn't dying in the US. I'm also unconvinced that "90% of mainstream media leans left", other than perhaps by current American standards which is out of kilter with other western democracies.
What do Europeans generally think of American conservatism? That it's benighted, bigoted, misguided, interesting, what? I know American conservatives don't really care about the liberal argument "All the other nations of the world have X, so we should have X, too!", I think because of American exceptionalism and because of a view that fiscally conservative policies are conducive to economic flourishing. What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Offline Elite

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2020, 08:25:10 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.
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Offline axeman90210

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2020, 08:29:15 AM »
Biden's presidency will be interesting. He is going to have to negotiate his way through a mine field of far-left ideas. Defund the police, do away with prisons, reparations, free college, free healthcare, on and on. I'm interested to see where we are 4 years from now.

Except he's not. The very best case scenario for Dems is to get to exactly 50 seats in the Senate and have Kamala Harris act as the tiebreaking vote. There are conservative skewing Dems (e.g. Joe Manchin) who will not go for pretty much any of what you just listed.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2020, 08:31:23 AM »
How are we defining conservatives in this context? Who are the notable conservatives? This whole discussion seems off to me because Trumpism seems to be doing quite well. Even as its leader pouts and writhes about like a dying carp, its key players are still proudly waiving the flag. Are these the conservatives of which we speak? Or are they the former republicans (RINOs as they're now known)?
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2020, 08:40:31 AM »
As someone outside the US, I feel pretty confident in saying that conservatism definitely isn't dying in the US. I'm also unconvinced that "90% of mainstream media leans left", other than perhaps by current American standards which is out of kilter with other western democracies.

I'd pay money to actually SEE you say this, face-to-face, so I could read the underlying intent.   The reading of the words on the screen is cold and impersonal, and here has a whiff of judgment to it, a whiff of blame.  What do you see as evidence that "conservativism definitely isn't dying in the U.S."?

I know in my answer, I'm not defining "conservatism" as "one side of a BLM rally in Wisconsin".  I'm defining it in a more classic sense, updated to modern sensibilities.  Not strictly "small government and low spending", but more along the lines of tempered movement, reliance on the existing systems to fight problems within the system, and not relying on "blowing things up" (metaphorically) in order to ram change - whether desire or not, whether well-thought-out or not - through to an unreceptive audience.

I don't really disagree with much of what you said except a bit at the end because, it seems to me, that it necessarily defines liberalism (assuming we're using that as the other side of the coin term) as radical movement bent on destroying the system and blowing things up in order to ram in change. That seems disingenuous.

While I don't think tempered change is always a good thing (some things can't wait years/decades and shouldn't) and I don't believe the system is good enough to always work within itself, I don't think pragmatism (which is what I'm seeing you define in general) is a staple of conservatism as opposed to liberalism. If liberalism was pragmatic, it wouldn't become conservativism.


I actually agree with a lot of what Lordxizor said, and which you (stads) alluded to. If conservativism continues to be a philosophy that exclusively favors (or tries to) white, middle/upper class, straight, Christian men, then they won't and shouldn't last a very long time. If they get back to their core values and drop the morality stuff, I can see them again becoming the mainstay of American politics.


There is a religious and spiritual difference between the two, that should not be ignored. Many of those Ideals stem from the Christian/Catholic faith. Conservatives are more faithful, in their beliefs, and still to this day, hold true things that were done in the past, due to these Catholic/Christian Ideals. Liberals, while also a bit Christian/Catholic, are more open to The Other, doesn't mean they'll listen though. Liberals, also have a lot of Non-Theistic people, those that do not believe in a God or anything Spiritual. Conservatives, do not have as much of those people.

As much as they say, "Separation of Church and State" That only applies to the Religious Organizations, having no power or say within the State's Laws, and can't be used to write laws that would benefit said organization. Even that concept of "Church and State" is largely Christian based. The Consitution is largely based on Christian/Catholic Ideals, as the founding fathers, were religious/spiritual people as well, all people practiced religious/spirituality in those times.

We natives, accepted some of the Christian Ideals, as they also related to the Law of The Creator. It was the mistreatment, disrespect, that made us rebel.


When Jesus said, "Render unto Caeser all that is Caeser" I see that to mean, the all that is of the "MAN",  those Laws of Caesar are Man Made Laws. "And to God, the things that are God's" meaning, God's Law. He wants us to distinct the two, and understand, Man's Law and God's Law.

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Offline ariich

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2020, 09:01:48 AM »
I'd pay money to actually SEE you say this, face-to-face, so I could read the underlying intent.
Perfectly fair point, perhaps I should have provided a bit more than just a couple of sentences. :lol

Quote
The reading of the words on the screen is cold and impersonal, and here has a whiff of judgment to it, a whiff of blame.  What do you see as evidence that "conservativism definitely isn't dying in the U.S."?
Not sure what you mean by blame or judgement, but based on your last two posts I think we see it very similarly. I wasn't talking about the white, "Christian" Trumpism that in my opinion is very unconservative in nature, I meant actual conservatism which you and I seem to have similar (ish) definitions of. Despite Trump, the sense I get (again, as an outsider) is that most Republicans are still fairly conservative, as are a large chunk of Democrats who keep electing centrists.

The other point that perhaps you alluded it to when asking about judgement is the international perspective, but I don't really mean it in a particularly judgemental way. I just think economically and in SOME regards socially, the US's political spectrum is shifted to the right compared with most other big western democracies. I still find it bizarre when universal healthcare is suggested as some kind of radical-left policy.

Quote
I know in my answer, I'm not defining "conservatism" as "one side of a BLM rally in Wisconsin".  I'm defining it in a more classic sense, updated to modern sensibilities.  Not strictly "small government and low spending", but more along the lines of tempered movement, reliance on the existing systems to fight problems within the system, and not relying on "blowing things up" (metaphorically) in order to ram change - whether desire or not, whether well-thought-out or not - through to an unreceptive audience.
For the record, I agree with most of what you say in your own response to emtee, at least in a general sense. Though I also agree with Adami that liberalism isn't at all about tearing everything up, and that some things do require more significant change and sometimes at pace.

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2020, 11:13:32 AM »
I don't know who this Perot was but it seems to me that, had he won the election, you guys would have had the most akward 4 political years ever. How is an independent supposed to govern when congress is composed of republicans and democrats?
I'm with Rich here, unless the election's system is changed to a representative one of some sort, the two party system will remain in place. If for some reason one of the parties were to split, the other one would win the elections easily and things would go back to normal in time for the mid-term elections.
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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2020, 11:14:11 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

I think he's referring to the economic metrics that we sacrifice those things for.

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2020, 11:20:57 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

I think he's referring to the economic metrics that we sacrifice those things for.

Actually, the US leads (the world) in incarcerations/capita (with El Salvador a close second), guns/capita, and defense spending.
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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2020, 11:23:46 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

I think he's referring to the economic metrics that we sacrifice those things for.

Actually, the US leads (the world) in incarcerations/capita (with El Salvador a close second), guns/capita, and defense spending.

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Offline Adami

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2020, 11:51:13 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

I think he's referring to the economic metrics that we sacrifice those things for.

Actually, the US leads (the world) in incarcerations/capita (with El Salvador a close second), guns/capita, and defense spending.

You forgot people who believe angels are real.

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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2020, 12:12:04 PM »
RJ, our responses would be some 70's crush. :lol  Dammit that hurt to say. 
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2020, 01:44:37 PM »
So far all of Biden's cabinet appointments have been deputies from the Obama administration. This makes a lot of sense. They essentially understudied under guys they worked with. Biden knows he can work with them and knows they can be trusted. And we can certainly expect some professionalism, which will be a nice change. Moreover, since nobody's ever heard of any of them, it'll be hard for the far left to freak out about them. In the meantime, we can expect an announcement any minute now from the senate stating that the Constitution clearly and unequivocally prohibits anybody from Obama's administration from every serving in government, thus they will not be approved.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #63 on: November 23, 2020, 02:14:37 PM »
I saw a headline of Merrick Garland for AG.  Wouldn't that be the cat's meow.
Looking at my most recent posts, it almost seems like I'm trying to become the Common Sense of DTF :lol
You'd have an easier time trying to bring the internet to the Amish.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #64 on: November 23, 2020, 02:58:05 PM »
If there's any one, single thing that everybody could agree on, something that could unite us all as Americans, I think it would be that Rudy Giuliani is fucking nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0h6sRuC8bQ&feature=emb_title

This guy was a successful mayor New York. He was the US attorney general under Reagan, as well as the Southern District of New York. He was instrumental in taking down the five families. He was the only person that looked like he knew what he was going after 911. For most of his career he really seemed to have head on his shoulders. Now he's embarrassing himself in court. He's embarrassing himself in front of porno shops. And he's finally graduated to embarrassing himself doing crappy infomercials, shilling for a pathetic loser. I can't even imagine that this guy was in court successfully prosecuting Big Paulie Costellano.

And people thought that Biden wasn't sharp enough?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #65 on: November 23, 2020, 03:07:29 PM »
If there's any one, single thing that everybody could agree on, something that could unite us all as Americans, I think it would be that Rudy Giuliani is fucking nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0h6sRuC8bQ&feature=emb_title

This guy was a successful mayor New York. He was the US attorney general under Reagan, as well as the Southern District of New York. He was instrumental in taking down the five families. He was the only person that looked like he knew what he was going after 911. For most of his career he really seemed to have head on his shoulders. Now he's embarrassing himself in court. He's embarrassing himself in front of porno shops. And he's finally graduated to embarrassing himself doing crappy infomercials, shilling for a pathetic loser. I can't even imagine that this guy was in court successfully prosecuting Big Paulie Costellano.

And people thought that Biden wasn't sharp enough?

I made it through a minute. I'd rather shave my balls with a rusted cheese grater than watch further.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2020, 03:16:41 PM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

Not conceding you're right, but even if you are, it's not a function of "liberal" and "conservative", not by a LONG shot.  I wrote we're behind on healthcare in the COVID thread a week or so ago, and that's with 12 years of Obamacare.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #67 on: November 23, 2020, 03:20:25 PM »
I'd pay money to actually SEE you say this, face-to-face, so I could read the underlying intent.
Perfectly fair point, perhaps I should have provided a bit more than just a couple of sentences. :lol

Quote
The reading of the words on the screen is cold and impersonal, and here has a whiff of judgment to it, a whiff of blame.  What do you see as evidence that "conservativism definitely isn't dying in the U.S."?
Not sure what you mean by blame or judgement, but based on your last two posts I think we see it very similarly. I wasn't talking about the white, "Christian" Trumpism that in my opinion is very unconservative in nature, I meant actual conservatism which you and I seem to have similar (ish) definitions of. Despite Trump, the sense I get (again, as an outsider) is that most Republicans are still fairly conservative, as are a large chunk of Democrats who keep electing centrists.

The other point that perhaps you alluded it to when asking about judgement is the international perspective, but I don't really mean it in a particularly judgemental way. I just think economically and in SOME regards socially, the US's political spectrum is shifted to the right compared with most other big western democracies. I still find it bizarre when universal healthcare is suggested as some kind of radical-left policy.

Quote
I know in my answer, I'm not defining "conservatism" as "one side of a BLM rally in Wisconsin".  I'm defining it in a more classic sense, updated to modern sensibilities.  Not strictly "small government and low spending", but more along the lines of tempered movement, reliance on the existing systems to fight problems within the system, and not relying on "blowing things up" (metaphorically) in order to ram change - whether desire or not, whether well-thought-out or not - through to an unreceptive audience.
For the record, I agree with most of what you say in your own response to emtee, at least in a general sense. Though I also agree with Adami that liberalism isn't at all about tearing everything up, and that some things do require more significant change and sometimes at pace.

This is to you and Adami, and I apologize for not being clear.  I was NOT implying "liberalism is all about tearing everything up".  I was very clearly - in my head - and not so clearly - in my post - referring to the standard far-left criticisms of "conservatives".   I'm referring to the Bernie notion of "revolution", which I find to be a dangerous, misleading, self-serving characterization on Bernie's part.

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2020, 03:23:44 PM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

I think he's referring to the economic metrics that we sacrifice those things for.

Actually, the US leads (the world) in incarcerations/capita (with El Salvador a close second), guns/capita, and defense spending.

Not touching the first one, but the last two are VERY context specific metrics.  You sound like one of those NFL announcers that say "and so-and-so is the first running back in NFL history to record 100 yards rushing to his left and score three TDs on Thursdays".    Guns/capita is a useless statistic.  Defense spending is a complicated metric compounded by the fact that a) it's a community welfare program, and b) our role on the world stage.  Remember the criticisms when Trump decided that the EU was going to "pay us" for all the resources we contribute to the world stage?

Offline Stadler

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Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #69 on: November 23, 2020, 03:24:25 PM »
RJ, our responses would be some 70's crush. :lol  Dammit that hurt to say.

Farrah Fawcett-Majors?  (Though I would go with Jaclyn Smith, myself.)