Author Topic: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread  (Read 31713 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #70 on: November 23, 2020, 03:25:32 PM »
I saw a headline of Merrick Garland for AG.  Wouldn't that be the cat's meow.

Vengeance tour.  I wrote about that.   

It would not be the cat's meow (and I'm a Garland fan, in a general sense).

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #71 on: November 23, 2020, 04:06:47 PM »
If there's any one, single thing that everybody could agree on, something that could unite us all as Americans, I think it would be that Rudy Giuliani is fucking nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0h6sRuC8bQ&feature=emb_title

This guy was a successful mayor New York. He was the US attorney general under Reagan, as well as the Southern District of New York. He was instrumental in taking down the five families. He was the only person that looked like he knew what he was going after 911. For most of his career he really seemed to have head on his shoulders. Now he's embarrassing himself in court. He's embarrassing himself in front of porno shops. And he's finally graduated to embarrassing himself doing crappy infomercials, shilling for a pathetic loser. I can't even imagine that this guy was in court successfully prosecuting Big Paulie Costellano.

And people thought that Biden wasn't sharp enough?

I dunno man, I thought that the few minutes I saw and skimmed through were great.

HE DID HIS OWN COMMERCIALS! It's amazing.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34847
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #72 on: November 23, 2020, 04:59:22 PM »
If there's any one, single thing that everybody could agree on, something that could unite us all as Americans, I think it would be that Rudy Giuliani is fucking nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0h6sRuC8bQ&feature=emb_title

This guy was a successful mayor New York. He was the US attorney general under Reagan, as well as the Southern District of New York. He was instrumental in taking down the five families. He was the only person that looked like he knew what he was going after 911. For most of his career he really seemed to have head on his shoulders. Now he's embarrassing himself in court. He's embarrassing himself in front of porno shops. And he's finally graduated to embarrassing himself doing crappy infomercials, shilling for a pathetic loser. I can't even imagine that this guy was in court successfully prosecuting Big Paulie Costellano.

And people thought that Biden wasn't sharp enough?

I made it through a minute. I'd rather shave my balls with a rusted cheese grater than watch further.

A) Agree with Barto 100%
B) I made it 1:50 before mrs.jingle and I pulled the ripcord.

Not touching the first one, but the last two are VERY context specific metrics.  You sound like one of those NFL announcers that say "and so-and-so is the first running back in NFL history to record 100 yards rushing to his left and score three TDs on Thursdays".    Guns/capita is a useless statistic.  Defense spending is a complicated metric compounded by the fact that a) it's a community welfare program, and b) our role on the world stage.  Remember the criticisms when Trump decided that the EU was going to "pay us" for all the resources we contribute to the world stage?

I knew my post was gonna be like the bat-singal for you.  Not sure what about the last 2 makes the "context specific".  Does or does not the US lead in these two metrics / categories?  It doesn't matter if you believe/say it's a meaningless statistic, or "complicated" you still lead in those metrics.  I never said "meaningful and uncomplicated categories the US leads in".  And who anointed the US as the head of the global Neighbourhood Watch? 
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 49033
  • Gender: Male
  • Kip Rolled
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #73 on: November 23, 2020, 06:15:03 PM »
RJ, our responses would be some 70's crush. :lol  Dammit that hurt to say.

Farrah Fawcett-Majors?  (Though I would go with Jaclyn Smith, myself.)

Jacqueline Bisset
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34847
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #74 on: November 23, 2020, 08:31:45 PM »
Seems as though the Trump administration loyalists are finally starting to grasp true reality.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/first-on-cnn-key-government-agency-acknowledges-bidens-win-and-begins-formal-transition/ar-BB1bibjM?OCID=ansmsnnews11

Trump tweets:

"I want to thank Emily Murphy at GSA for her steadfast dedication and loyalty to our Country. She has been harassed, threatened, and abused – and I do not want to see this happen to her, her family, or employees of GSA. Our case STRONGLY continues, we will keep up the good..."
"fight, and I believe we will prevail! Nevertheless, in the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same."

One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #75 on: November 23, 2020, 08:42:19 PM »
Re: Guiliani. I was wondering the other day what the hell happened to him. I knew him growing up as the mayor of NYC and the one who seemed to hold that city together after 9/11, an avid Yankees fan, and the guy who bravely initiated an investigation into frozen yogurt that was misleadingly being labeled as non-fat.. I assume he's been busy since then, doing what I have been ignorant about. Then several years pass, and here we are.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 19956
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #76 on: November 23, 2020, 09:04:26 PM »
Re: Guiliani. I was wondering the other day what the hell happened to him. I knew him growing up as the mayor of NYC and the one who seemed to hold that city together after 9/11, an avid Yankees fan, and the guy who bravely initiated an investigation into frozen yogurt that was misleadingly being labeled as non-fat.. I assume he's been busy since then, doing what I have been ignorant about. Then several years pass, and here we are.

The further you fall from grace, the more you splatter when you land.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 11093
  • Gender: Male
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2020, 01:12:30 AM »
You either die an esteemed politician, or live long enough to be sucked into the black hole of an arrogant outsider with hair dye running down your face.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline Elite

  • The 'other' Rich
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 15699
  • Gender: Male
  • also, a tin teardrop
    • Overhaul
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2020, 02:35:12 AM »
So Trump has given the green light for Biden's transition team, yet he continues the legal battles.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

Offline Elite

  • The 'other' Rich
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 15699
  • Gender: Male
  • also, a tin teardrop
    • Overhaul
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2020, 02:37:13 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

Not conceding you're right, but even if you are, it's not a function of "liberal" and "conservative", not by a LONG shot.  I wrote we're behind on healthcare in the COVID thread a week or so ago, and that's with 12 years of Obamacare.   

I honestly don't really know how to respond to this, since I didn't mention 'liberal' and/or 'conservative' at all. I was merely challenging the notion that America 'outperforms European countries in many domains', because I don't believe that's true at all.

(Then agan 'many domains' could mean literally *anything*, so the statement in itself is bullshit.)
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

Offline H2

  • Posts: 386
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2020, 09:57:07 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

Not conceding you're right, but even if you are, it's not a function of "liberal" and "conservative", not by a LONG shot.  I wrote we're behind on healthcare in the COVID thread a week or so ago, and that's with 12 years of Obamacare.   

I honestly don't really know how to respond to this, since I didn't mention 'liberal' and/or 'conservative' at all. I was merely challenging the notion that America 'outperforms European countries in many domains', because I don't believe that's true at all.

(Then agan 'many domains' could mean literally *anything*, so the statement in itself is bullshit.)
Just wanted to call out your hidden assumption when you say "As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too." You're clearly saying that other countries are ahead (i.e., better) than the USA in these dimensions. Of course a conservative is going to disagree with that. (And what do you have in mind by "civil rights"? I'm not sure what you are thinking of there.)

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2020, 10:31:56 AM »
If there's any one, single thing that everybody could agree on, something that could unite us all as Americans, I think it would be that Rudy Giuliani is fucking nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0h6sRuC8bQ&feature=emb_title

This guy was a successful mayor New York. He was the US attorney general under Reagan, as well as the Southern District of New York. He was instrumental in taking down the five families. He was the only person that looked like he knew what he was going after 911. For most of his career he really seemed to have head on his shoulders. Now he's embarrassing himself in court. He's embarrassing himself in front of porno shops. And he's finally graduated to embarrassing himself doing crappy infomercials, shilling for a pathetic loser. I can't even imagine that this guy was in court successfully prosecuting Big Paulie Costellano.

And people thought that Biden wasn't sharp enough?

I made it through a minute. I'd rather shave my balls with a rusted cheese grater than watch further.

A) Agree with Barto 100%
B) I made it 1:50 before mrs.jingle and I pulled the ripcord.

Not touching the first one, but the last two are VERY context specific metrics.  You sound like one of those NFL announcers that say "and so-and-so is the first running back in NFL history to record 100 yards rushing to his left and score three TDs on Thursdays".    Guns/capita is a useless statistic.  Defense spending is a complicated metric compounded by the fact that a) it's a community welfare program, and b) our role on the world stage.  Remember the criticisms when Trump decided that the EU was going to "pay us" for all the resources we contribute to the world stage?

I knew my post was gonna be like the bat-singal for you.  Not sure what about the last 2 makes the "context specific".  Does or does not the US lead in these two metrics / categories?  It doesn't matter if you believe/say it's a meaningless statistic, or "complicated" you still lead in those metrics.  I never said "meaningful and uncomplicated categories the US leads in".  And who anointed the US as the head of the global Neighbourhood Watch?

You are correct in that we lead in those categories.  It's reckless to throw out stats with an implication without clarification.  The context was BAD things we're "good" at, and you threw out "incarceration/capita" - a bad thing almost however you slice it - and the next two.  Are you all of a sudden switching horses?  Because the implication is pretty heavy that "guns/capita" is a bad thing, and it's not, in and of itself.  It's not, even NOT in and of itself.  Likewise with defense spending (look at any community - there are hundreds - where a military base has been stationed for any length of time and then subsequently closed).   

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2020, 10:35:28 AM »
What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

Like what? As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too.

Not conceding you're right, but even if you are, it's not a function of "liberal" and "conservative", not by a LONG shot.  I wrote we're behind on healthcare in the COVID thread a week or so ago, and that's with 12 years of Obamacare.   

I honestly don't really know how to respond to this, since I didn't mention 'liberal' and/or 'conservative' at all. I was merely challenging the notion that America 'outperforms European countries in many domains', because I don't believe that's true at all.

(Then agan 'many domains' could mean literally *anything*, so the statement in itself is bullshit.)

Okay, fair enough.  I read "liberal perspective", then your answer with a number of platforms (no judgment) that are hallmarks of the American Democratic Party, and I guess I assumed too much. 

And I don't want to be misunderstood:  I don't really consider myself "conservative", but in this context, I'm more conservative than most here, and I don't have any illusions.  We DON'T outperform European countries in many of those categories (and we DO in other, worse ones, like illegal drug use, prescription drug use, suicide, and a couple others).  But, in my opinion, neither party here is on the "right side of history" with any of these subjects.

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34847
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2020, 10:44:17 AM »
You are correct in that we lead in those categories.  It's reckless to throw out stats with an implication without clarification.  The context was BAD things we're "good" at, and you threw out "incarceration/capita" - a bad thing almost however you slice it - and the next two.  Are you all of a sudden switching horses?  Because the implication is pretty heavy that "guns/capita" is a bad thing, and it's not, in and of itself.  It's not, even NOT in and of itself.  Likewise with defense spending (look at any community - there are hundreds - where a military base has been stationed for any length of time and then subsequently closed).

I used the incarceration and defense spending items because I'd just seen (for like the 20th time) Jeff Daniels' monologue at the opening of The Newsroom.  I threw in the guns one as a dog whistle for you.   :D ;D :P

At least RJ got the joke.
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 28089
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2020, 01:25:03 PM »
You are correct in that we lead in those categories.  It's reckless to throw out stats with an implication without clarification.  The context was BAD things we're "good" at, and you threw out "incarceration/capita" - a bad thing almost however you slice it - and the next two.  Are you all of a sudden switching horses?  Because the implication is pretty heavy that "guns/capita" is a bad thing, and it's not, in and of itself.  It's not, even NOT in and of itself.  Likewise with defense spending (look at any community - there are hundreds - where a military base has been stationed for any length of time and then subsequently closed).

I used the incarceration and defense spending items because I'd just seen (for like the 20th time) Jeff Daniels' monologue at the opening of The Newsroom.  I threw in the guns one as a dog whistle for you.   :D ;D :P

At least RJ got the joke.

Dog whistles.  What did I ever do to you?   :) :) :)  ;D

Offline Elite

  • The 'other' Rich
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 15699
  • Gender: Male
  • also, a tin teardrop
    • Overhaul
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2020, 01:40:58 PM »
Just wanted to call out your hidden assumption when you say "As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too." You're clearly saying that other countries are ahead (i.e., better) than the USA in these dimensions. Of course a conservative is going to disagree with that. (And what do you have in mind by "civil rights"? I'm not sure what you are thinking of there.)

The USA is on #25 on the Democracy Index. Not bad, but almost all of Western Europe is above it. link

The 2017 Human Freedom Index lists the USA at #15. Of the 14 countries above the USA, 10 are Western European countries (the others are New Zealand, Hong Kong, Canada and Australia). This position is a cumulative score based on Personal Freedom and Economic Freedom and is derived mostly from the USA's #5 rank in the latter. The 'Personal Freedom' rank (which includes 'civil rights' in the broadest sense) is #26. Above the USA are mostly Western (and some Eastern) European countries.


What was your point about me assuming things when you're calling out stuff like this again? (See quote below)

What do Europeans generally think of American conservatism? That it's benighted, bigoted, misguided, interesting, what?
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25654
  • Bad Craziness
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2020, 01:59:58 PM »
Just wanted to call out your hidden assumption when you say "As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too." You're clearly saying that other countries are ahead (i.e., better) than the USA in these dimensions. Of course a conservative is going to disagree with that. (And what do you have in mind by "civil rights"? I'm not sure what you are thinking of there.)

The USA is on #25 on the Democracy Index. Not bad, but almost all of Western Europe is above it. link

The 2017 Human Freedom Index lists the USA at #15. Of the 14 countries above the USA, 10 are Western European countries (the others are New Zealand, Hong Kong, Canada and Australia). This position is a cumulative score based on Personal Freedom and Economic Freedom and is derived mostly from the USA's #5 rank in the latter. The 'Personal Freedom' rank (which includes 'civil rights' in the broadest sense) is #26. Above the USA are mostly Western (and some Eastern) European countries.


What was your point about me assuming things when you're calling out stuff like this again? (See quote below)

What do Europeans generally think of American conservatism? That it's benighted, bigoted, misguided, interesting, what?
Just to chime in on another aspect, I dug up some studies a while ago, and our health care system is overall pretty average, even for those that can afford treatment. When it comes to fighting cancer American is the place to be (if you're wealthy, that is). For all of the other typical indicators we're generally quite mediocre. This despite spending a fortune per capita. We're paying gigantic amounts for weak returns.

Suffice it to say, America is way behind other countries with regards to health care, cancer excepted.

Here's a recent study:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-start

Looks about the same as the one I found a few years ago.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline H2

  • Posts: 386
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2020, 02:44:03 PM »
Just wanted to call out your hidden assumption when you say "As far as I know, the USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too." You're clearly saying that other countries are ahead (i.e., better) than the USA in these dimensions. Of course a conservative is going to disagree with that. (And what do you have in mind by "civil rights"? I'm not sure what you are thinking of there.)

The USA is on #25 on the Democracy Index. Not bad, but almost all of Western Europe is above it. link

The 2017 Human Freedom Index lists the USA at #15. Of the 14 countries above the USA, 10 are Western European countries (the others are New Zealand, Hong Kong, Canada and Australia). This position is a cumulative score based on Personal Freedom and Economic Freedom and is derived mostly from the USA's #5 rank in the latter. The 'Personal Freedom' rank (which includes 'civil rights' in the broadest sense) is #26. Above the USA are mostly Western (and some Eastern) European countries.


What was your point about me assuming things when you're calling out stuff like this again? (See quote below)

What do Europeans generally think of American conservatism? That it's benighted, bigoted, misguided, interesting, what?
At first, you made the claim that "USA is behind on social security, civil rights, education, healthcare and probably a myriad of other things too." I asked you to justify this position, and you point to these studies that rank the USA at such-at-such places. But that doesn't really explain a few things: why the USA is "behind" in these particular areas, what are the metrics of evaluation adopted by these researchers, why we should adopt those metrics, and so on. After all if someone doesn't accept their assumptions, one won't accept their conclusions.

@ El Barto - I'm not that particularly knowledgeable about health care and ways to evaluate it in a given country. Speaking ideologically, I am not a consequentialist, so when I told Elite that a conservative would disagree with the idea that America is behind, say, Denmark on health care, I am thinking in ideological terms. It may be the case that a country with more sick people but more individual liberties (e.g., laissez-faire healthcare) is all things considered better than a country with fewer sick people but socialized medicine. I'm not sure the metrics you and Elite shared really take ideological considerations into, well, consideration.

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34847
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2020, 03:14:29 PM »
I've always loved the global plotting of healthcare spend and life expectancy.  And how the US is ALWAYS an obvious outlier.  First source is Forbes, 2012; second is https://ourworldindata.org/the-link-between-life-expectancy-and-health-spending-us-focus



Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Offline Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 32125
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2020, 03:20:23 PM »
AT LEAST WE AIN’T NO GOD DAMN COMMIE SOCIALIST PINKOS!!!
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2020, 04:08:05 PM »
AT LEAST WE AIN’T NO GOD DAMN COMMIE SOCIALIST PINKOS!!!

yes, in notoriously authoritarian anti-democratic Canada (hey, technically we are still under The Queen’s rule) we have universal access to healthcare.  The people cry out for « laissez-faire » healthcare (that’s a new one)

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2020, 04:19:34 PM »
Universal healthcare is a feature of countries ranging from Communist states like Cuba, social democracies, neoliberal western democracies and Hyper-capitalist city states like Singapore. Turns out keeping your populace healthy and alive is a universally good idea.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1591
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2020, 04:39:54 PM »
What do Europeans generally think of American conservatism? That it's benighted, bigoted, misguided, interesting, what? I know American conservatives don't really care about the liberal argument "All the other nations of the world have X, so we should have X, too!", I think because of American exceptionalism and because of a view that fiscally conservative policies are conducive to economic flourishing. What would be a liberal perspective on why America outperforms European countries in many domains?

I can only speak for this European right here, but from the outside looking in America doesn't really do the whole "society" thing, you place an emphasis on individualism. This ethos results in many examples of excellence but it also explains why America is - from a Western European perspective - a failed society in many respects. Ultimately, and as you’ve written in a subsequent post to the one I’m quoting, it becomes an ideological question - at least a question of values - as to whether or not America “outperforms European countries in many domains”. Many of the things you (personally you, H2) value as achievements won’t matter to me and my world view, and vice versa. You asked what would be my perspective on “why America outperforms European countries in many domains?” My answer is: from my perspective, you don’t. But that doesn’t invalidate the fact that from your perspective, you do. It’s just different values.

As for your question about what I think of “American conservatism”, most of the aspects that are not particular to America are admirable.  Conservatives value independence, a strong work ethic, self-reliance, respect, character, things like that. Those are all good ideas, when coupled with a compassion for others. Since you asked specifically about American conservatism then really the only major difference I notice between that and Western European conservatism – again, from the outside looking in - is connected to religion. America tends to create things in its own self-obsessed image and ‘God’ has not escaped the corruption. Religion in America is a $1.2 trillion dollar industry (the so-called “faith economy”), your “religious leaders” are all multi-millionaires, and they –or rather their wealth - have extraordinary power over politicians (the evangelicals embraced Trump because he safeguarded their ability to keep scamming poorly-educated people out of money without having to pay tax on the loot – they are terrified that the “socialists” will put an end to their racket by taxing them). It is incredibly, incredibly rare to hear an English politician ever talk about God or religion. It just never comes up in any debates or campaigns. That’s the main difference I notice between American conservatism and, at least, the English conservatism with which I’m familiar. Religion plays a far bigger role.   

Slightly off-topic but by way of example of that last point I made: all 3 of the early front-runners for the Republican nomination in 2024 (Pompeo, Cruz and Rubio) are fundamentalist Christians, and in fact if you go to Marco Rubio’s twitter feed you’ll see he’s spent the last 6 months turning it into an evangelical bulletin board, posting (mainly Old Testament fire and brimstone) Bible quotes, each one more hypocritical than the last when you consider which master he’s been serving for the last 4 years. He’s being smart here. He knows what the reaction to Biden/Harris (more so Harris) is going to be and he’s positioning himself (as are Cruz and Pompeo) as the man to lead you all away from the Socialist Sodom. Fox News has today been playing their usual !!ANTI-SEMITISM!! card against Rashida Tlaib for daring to say something remotely critical of Israel (in fact she wasn’t even doing that, she was defending her 1st Amendment rights)...

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rashida-tlaib-biden-antony-blinken

If any one of Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz or Mike Pompeo campaigned for government office in England and said/wrote the religious stuff they do, they would be treated as faintly disturbed individuals. Not necessarily because of the beliefs they pretend to hold but because: why are you saying any of this? You’re a politician, why are you tweeting out contextless quotes from Old Testament prophets? The answer is that English politicians don’t need to court the endorsements (money) of “religious leaders”. Your guys do (and incidentally when Bernie Sanders suggested making elections publicly funded in order to limit how much of a plutocracy America is he was shot down by both the left and the right. It’s a gravy train they’re all happy to ride until the wheels fall off).
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline H2

  • Posts: 386
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2020, 05:37:32 PM »
Re: those charts on heath care costs, those don't factor in hidden costs, do they? (such as the 50% income tax in Denmark)

@Dave, interesting perspective, Dave. I think we can agree that evaluating America comes down to different values...and this is why discussing ideology is so important. How great is American society? Depends on your ideology.

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2020, 06:24:02 PM »
How is a tax rate (or tax ceiling if you want to be correct) a hidden cost in this instance? Denmark's tax rate is comparatively high for a multitude of other reasons other than universal health care. That doesn't change what is ultimately spent on the system.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 1020
  • Gender: Male
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2020, 06:32:03 PM »
Re: those charts on heath care costs, those don't factor in hidden costs, do they? (such as the 50% income tax in Denmark)

@Dave, interesting perspective, Dave. I think we can agree that evaluating America comes down to different values...and this is why discussing ideology is so important. How great is American society? Depends on your ideology.

what difference does it make where the healthcare spending comes from? (Other than the obvious advantage of citizens not having to worry about if they can afford seeing a doctor) Whether it’s out of pocket or from income tax it’s still healthcare spending so I don’t see how it changes those charts.

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10440
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #96 on: November 24, 2020, 06:38:58 PM »
....all 3 of the early front-runners for the Republican nomination in 2024 (Pompeo, Cruz and Rubio)

Here's a bible quote to go along with that

John, 11:35
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline jingle.boy

  • I'm so ronery; so sad and ronery
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34847
  • Gender: Male
  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #97 on: November 24, 2020, 08:14:25 PM »
@H... it's not personal out-of-pocket cost (that's such a US mindset).  It's the total cost of delivering healthcare, not the cost that individuals pay for it.
Fox = drip-feeding dumb people with rage-porn. CNN = drip-feeding smug assholes with moral reassurance.
I'll do my best, but this? The guy's getting Llamathrust.
Happy is the dog that stops and licks his balls.

Online ariich

  • Roulette Supervillain
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 24526
  • Gender: Male
  • sexin' you later
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2020, 12:00:17 AM »
@H... it's not personal out-of-pocket cost (that's such a US mindset).  It's the total cost of delivering healthcare, not the cost that individuals pay for it.
Yeah, this.

The US spends an absolutely huge amount on healthcare for seemingly little to no benefit.

Online SwedishGoose

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 1881
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2020, 03:58:10 AM »
@H... it's not personal out-of-pocket cost (that's such a US mindset).  It's the total cost of delivering healthcare, not the cost that individuals pay for it.
Yeah, this.

The US spends an absolutely huge amount on healthcare for seemingly little to no benefit.

My understanding is that a lot of that extra spenditure is collected by lawyers. Is that a correct assumption?

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1591
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2020, 07:36:33 AM »
@H... it's not personal out-of-pocket cost (that's such a US mindset).  It's the total cost of delivering healthcare, not the cost that individuals pay for it.
Yeah, this.

The US spends an absolutely huge amount on healthcare for seemingly little to no benefit.

My understanding is that a lot of that extra spenditure is collected by lawyers. Is that a correct assumption?

That's certainly one aspect, but it's fairly far down the chain. It's more to do with things like huge administrative costs (America is a very complicated bureaucracy with a dizzying array of healthcare plans) which result in a lot of waste, a culture of 'defensive' (i.e unneccesary) medicine, very high prices for both drugs and treatment driven by a 'what the market will bear' ethos (even "just in case" tests which cost peanuts in Western Europe cost thousands of dollars in America), very high salaries for doctors, and hospitals (like almost everything else in America from its prisons to its univeristies) are fundamentally profit centres. US prices for surgical procedures in hospitals massively exceed those of other countries, it's one of the ways they keep just the right side of financial ruin.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline Dave_Manchester

  • Posts: 1591
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2020, 07:59:24 AM »
By the way ever since I started streaming NFL games I realised an interesting thing: I've been going about understanding America the wrong way. Forget reading history, forget following its politics, forget analysing how its institutions are structured. For a better insight into how the country ticks, just do one thing: watch its commercial breaks. I'm telling you they are fuuuuucking fascinating. If next week Patrick Mahomes strips down bare-arsed naked and throws a blind backwards pass through his legs 100 yards straight into the hands of the receiver it will still be less mind-blowing to me than an American medical insurance commercial. Their small print is like sight-reading the Dead Sea Scolls while drunk off your ass.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 09:35:08 AM by Dave_Manchester »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Online Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 12335
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2020, 08:44:22 AM »
By the way ever since I started streaming NFL games I realised an interesting thing: I've been going about understanding America the wrong way. Forget reading history, forget following its politics, forget analysing how its institutions are structured. For a better insight into how the country ticks, just do one thing: watch its commercial breaks. I'm telling you they are fuuuuucking fascinating. If next week Patrick Mahomes strips down bare-arsed naked and throws a blind backwards pass through his legs 100 years straight into the hands of the receiver it will still be less mind-blowing to me than an American medical insurance commercial. Their small print is like sight-reading the Dead Sea Scolls while drunk off your ass.

You mean, our American, Sensationalism Propaganda.  :biggrin:
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Implode

  • Lord of the Squids
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 5659
  • Gender: Male
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2020, 08:49:47 AM »
Those commercials are one of the biggest reasons I haven't watched TV in years. It feels like a constant reminder of things that are going wrong.

Offline H2

  • Posts: 386
Re: 2020 Election Aftermath Thread
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2020, 09:23:25 AM »
@H... it's not personal out-of-pocket cost (that's such a US mindset).  It's the total cost of delivering healthcare, not the cost that individuals pay for it.
Gotcha, that clears things up. So we spend more than others for healthcare....Now, I suppose the next question is: what is the explanation for why we spend more, and do we actually spend too much? The fact that we are an outlier does not immediately imply that we spend too much. Surely there are some benign explanations? For example, that we have quality healthcare, and a wider range perhaps of nonessential healthcare (dematologists, orthodontists, LASIC, etc.).

I just want to know the explicit inferential chain that exists between "the USA is an outlier in healthcare costs" to "this is unnecessary and would be mitigated by universalizing health care / by having a single payer system."

As I said before, I don't know much about the health care system; I am presently much more of an ideologue and want to sink or swim on my own. I'm not on any meds and take good care of myself, my mind, and my body, and I don't feel that I would personally benefit by being forced to opt into a govt healthcare system (either by indirectly paying into it via taxation or being forced to buy it). If I get sick and can't pay for it, then I lean on the social fabric (parents, church, charities, etc..). If I get sick and can't pay for it, and social support doesn't exist, then, well...I get sick and can't pay for it. However, if it were obvious that something like Medicare for All would immediately solve our healthcare problems, I'd be open to changing my mind.