Author Topic: The Music Business/Industry Machine  (Read 1110 times)

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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The Music Business/Industry Machine
« on: November 10, 2020, 10:06:15 AM »
These conversations recently about Live Shows, and now Transatlantic doing a weird Abridged (Alternate) album, Extended  (Double) album. so a 3-cd album, has gotten me to wonder about The Music Industry Machine. To dive into what lies within machine, how it operates, and how it is being used. To find ways that can help the fans and bands to continue to enjoy seeing a great wonder being presented to us. I believe Music is a wonder of the world for a damn good reason, its powerful, it can heal, it can be joyous, its used in communication with some animals.

I'll start off with this reply to Stadler from the Transatlantic thread (the purpose of me needing to start this thread, and not go way off topic in other threads)



It's a two way street though. The band needs the fans to support them, somehow, or else they can't produce the music. The fans need to step up on their end a bit. Maybe, we fans need to be the ones to start the uprising of the high ticket prices, and Tickemaster Monolopy, that is screwing us fans over, It's mainly the "Fees" that make it unfathomable sometimes.
Can't speak for other countries, but Ticketblaster/JiveNation and these legalized scalping websites (AKA ticket resellers) are definitely a big part of the problem. But fans and most bands/artists can only do so much. If you're a band like Maiden, you have some control, but even they experienced problems with long lines with fans trying to enter because of what they instituted to ensure there was no scalping involved, resulting in some missing part of the show. Fans trying to fight it is a useless prospect unless *everyone* starts boycotting all live shows, and that will never happen. Even Pearl Jam, when they were at the height of the popularity in 1994-1995 tried to fight Ticketblaster but ultimately failed. They have too much control, and the government doesn't care and/or turns a blind eye to it because there's enough lobbying and greasing of palms to make it go away.

But really, that's a whole other discussion. The reality is that bands - especially those at this level - need to come up with new/better ways to generate money so that they can continue to support themselves and continue with their bands and in the music industry. And given that the norm now permits for their product to be (in essence) stolen by these streaming services, they are doing deluxe packages and the like to continue making physical sales.

But guys, this is a pure economics problem.  It's probably the best "supply and demand" example you can name that isn't called "iPhone".  If people weren't paying scalping prices (either legit or not), there wouldn't be a market.   Prices - for all the complaints about "fees" and whatever, are undervalued.  UNDER valued.  Not overpriced.

What SHOULD happen, if we care about the artists, is let them get a piece of that.   For now, if you buy the ticket from the box office, they get, say, 60% of the price.   If the ticket is $100, they get $60.   If that ticket gets funnelled into the scalping market, that ticket may go for $200, or $250; the artist STILL only got $60, so that extra $100 or $150 is going to a middle man.   I don't know how to do that effectively, and few artists have figured out a way.  The best they've done is to sort of weed out the casual fans.   But when I saw Bruce on Broadway, I was third row, from standing in the walk-up line for almost six hours.   I paid face value, which was... shall we say, more than I've spent on even the TWO most expensive tickets I've ever bought (probably three).  I was escorted into the theater upon purchase.   The guys next to me paid $6000 for their two seats.  You're never going to stop that, if someone wants to see a show that badly.

I hear you. Can't believe people actually don't understand these simple things of being screwed over. I mean, why in the hell would you want to pay that much. And now you have Ticketmaster a part of that scalping business, with their "Platinum Seats", I would like to find out if someone in the business has said anything about how this "Platinum Seats" payout works for the Artist and where the money for these tickets goes.

See, one day, I want a band to be daring and brave and do an experiment. Put up a show, and see how many, of your fans are actually buying tickets, offer them an incentive of a free merch item upon arrival at show, and proof of purchase of ticket, from non third party. Make it an intimate special show, that will attract scalpers as they know Demand will be high for these Special Shows. If the fans understand, they will reveal, who really pays these scalper prices and how much of a problem scalping is, due to the low turnout and angry people who should realize they were duped by Scalpers, all because "I just have to see this show" (I realize how unrealistic this is)



I understand some economics...How are the prices Undervalued?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2020, 11:43:31 AM »
The prices are undervalued because someone somewhere would pay a higher amount.   Pricing is subjective, and with tickets it's harder, because they are time limited (the event is one discrete event) and space limited (seats/capacity).

But generally, if you see a show go on sale and immediately there are 100's of tickets in the secondary market at prices higher than box office (ESPECIALLY if they are not all premium, i.e. front row, seats) those tickets were undervalued.  They could have been sold AT the box office for something between what they were sold for and what they are on the secondary markets sites for. 

From a PURE money stand point, the "but some fans will be shut out!" is purely a perception issue.  There's a decent argument that by pricing high enough to remove the secondary market, you're ensuring that you get an invested fan base.  Does that make sense?

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2020, 12:13:58 PM »
I am an invested fan and I will "NEVER" pay for those packages. There is a cap I put on myself for seeing bands and no band is worth the money they ask for those packages.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2020, 03:00:09 PM »
I am an invested fan and I will "NEVER" pay for those packages. There is a cap I put on myself for seeing bands and no band is worth the money they ask for those packages.

That's Stadlers point. People actually DO PAY those prices, and as long as people continue TO PAY those prices, tickets will be priced that high.

The prices are undervalued because someone somewhere would pay a higher amount.   Pricing is subjective, and with tickets it's harder, because they are time limited (the event is one discrete event) and space limited (seats/capacity).

But generally, if you see a show go on sale and immediately there are 100's of tickets in the secondary market at prices higher than box office (ESPECIALLY if they are not all premium, i.e. front row, seats) those tickets were undervalued.  They could have been sold AT the box office for something between what they were sold for and what they are on the secondary markets sites for. 

From a PURE money stand point, the "but some fans will be shut out!" is purely a perception issue.  There's a decent argument that by pricing high enough to remove the secondary market, you're ensuring that you get an invested fan base.  Does that make sense?

I think so... :biggrin:

So, it's just the effect of going online, and the Scalper also moving onto the platform. I still see actual scalpers at shows though, and sadly, my cuz did pay for some when we went to see DT in dallas. He wanted to see a show that night we arrived there, and he found out Chevelle with 10 Years was playing, he likes 10 Years, Tickets were sold out, and he got lucky the guys selling the ticket was actually an old school one and at the show, and was a reliable one. He used Craigslist, I told him it's risky, but its up to you. I wouldn't have done it, but I still helped him to find one, because I haven't seen Chevelle and that lineup sounded interesting, and if he's paying for it, shit free show.  :biggrin:

I think the coolest thing a band could do is, offer a ticket to a show of their choice when they buy the ultimate deluxe package. Guarantee those Boxsets will set out quick. Like what Coheed and Cambria did for The Afterman: Deluxe boxset. I bought it, and got to use it locally, I was happy I did actually get to use it, I got it signed too. I believe they have done the same thing with The Unheavenly Creatures.

The weird thing too is, Big Bands don't have a problem with this. They'll get seats in regardless, as you got a lot of those "Will do whatever to see the band?" Your Detroit Rock City movie stories. The bands starting out, have to prove themselves first, so it's mainly, on the band. The ones whom are taking the brunt are the middle bands, those who are pretty known, and can do a good tour, but are still doing things themselves, Touring on a bus or van.

Battlecross, actually got invited to play Mayhem, and for them to tour with Mayhem, they have to fund their own way across the tour, those 2nd stage bands, don't really get the good treatment the Main-Stage bands do...This is how Mayhem and Rockstar decided to do Business of their Festival, I don't know if Ozzfest was worse or not, but according to Maiden, it was to them. What Battlecross did was go a Crowdfunding site, of Indiegogo I believe it was. They had a package of Watch the set from behind the stage, includes ticket, shirt, and other goodies. I bought that, and was the only one at our venue that did. They were cool, I met them at the gate by the stage, got a wristband, walked in, and they led me to the stage, while the guitarist asked if I wanted a beer, I said sure, he grabbed me one, and I watched the set from behind the stage while drinking my beer.  :metal There were two other people watching, but I think they may have been radio winners, or some other shit.  :lol


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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2020, 04:39:11 PM »

I hear you. Can't believe people actually don't understand these simple things of being screwed over. I mean, why in the hell would you want to pay that much. And now you have Ticketmaster a part of that scalping business, with their "Platinum Seats", I would like to find out if someone in the business has said anything about how this "Platinum Seats" payout works for the Artist and where the money for these tickets goes.

Huh, I thought Platinum seats were a way for bands to make money..
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2020, 06:48:08 PM »
I'll post more of my take on this when I'm not on my phone but I spent my college years working at a basketball arena that hosted concerts and other events and it gave me some insight on how things worked from a venue standpoint. Ticketmaster is terrible but the artists get huge kick backs from TM, tm is just the whipping boy. Artists (or more likely their management) sign deals and get kick backs for things such as credit card exclusives, platinum seats and the like. Everyone biches and moans about ticketmaster but the artist has some say in this too. If they wanted they could sell tickets outright, sort of similar to what Tool did with their past tour, however the first rows were premium seats. I do think that ticketmaster has an absolute monopoly and the live venue game ideally that would change to a more consumer friendly model but for that to happen it would take more than just the consumers bitching about pricing and as previously stated there are always people wiling to pay high prices for shows.

One thing I'd like to add is that I liked what ticketmaster did for the 3 tool shows I bought tickets for. They opened a queue to wait in and at the time the tickets went live a set number of people were given a chance to pick seats in a venue and buy tickets. For those three shows I got tickets in the first 10 rows and all I did was simply wait in the queue 15 minutes before the sale went live.

Offline darkshade

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2020, 08:20:25 AM »
I'd be interested to read how it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s compared to modern times when it comes to getting tickets for concerts.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2020, 08:53:49 AM »
But generally, if you see a show go on sale and immediately there are 100's of tickets in the secondary market at prices higher than box office (ESPECIALLY if they are not all premium, i.e. front row, seats) those tickets were undervalued. 

Just to be clear, that's only if they are actually selling at those inflated values.  Just because 100s are listed at higher prices, doesn't mean people are buying them at that price.  But generally, I agree, if people are paying the higher price on the secondary market, then the original tickets were undervalued.

The other side of the coin though, is if the artist did price the tickets at the higher price point, you'd have plenty of fans bitching that they were priced out.  You saw this was the Rage Against the Machine reunite tour that didn't happen.  Those tickets were VERY expensive and it pissed a lot of fans off, but it actually was maybe even under valued as those shows sold out (and I assume tickets were selling for more on secondary markets, but I never actually checked this as I'm not a big Rage fan).

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2020, 09:24:21 AM »
But generally, if you see a show go on sale and immediately there are 100's of tickets in the secondary market at prices higher than box office (ESPECIALLY if they are not all premium, i.e. front row, seats) those tickets were undervalued. 

Just to be clear, that's only if they are actually selling at those inflated values.  Just because 100s are listed at higher prices, doesn't mean people are buying them at that price.  But generally, I agree, if people are paying the higher price on the secondary market, then the original tickets were undervalued.

The other side of the coin though, is if the artist did price the tickets at the higher price point, you'd have plenty of fans bitching that they were priced out.  You saw this was the Rage Against the Machine reunite tour that didn't happen.  Those tickets were VERY expensive and it pissed a lot of fans off, but it actually was maybe even under valued as those shows sold out (and I assume tickets were selling for more on secondary markets, but I never actually checked this as I'm not a big Rage fan).

That's a double-edged sword for a political band like RATM, that basically has the name MACHINE in the name. People saw that as them bowing down to the Machine, and feel like they are being a bit hypocritical (not me) by charging these higher prices.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2020, 10:03:04 AM »
I'll post more of my take on this when I'm not on my phone but I spent my college years working at a basketball arena that hosted concerts and other events and it gave me some insight on how things worked from a venue standpoint. Ticketmaster is terrible but the artists get huge kick backs from TM, tm is just the whipping boy. Artists (or more likely their management) sign deals and get kick backs for things such as credit card exclusives, platinum seats and the like. Everyone biches and moans about ticketmaster but the artist has some say in this too. If they wanted they could sell tickets outright, sort of similar to what Tool did with their past tour, however the first rows were premium seats. I do think that ticketmaster has an absolute monopoly and the live venue game ideally that would change to a more consumer friendly model but for that to happen it would take more than just the consumers bitching about pricing and as previously stated there are always people wiling to pay high prices for shows.

One thing I'd like to add is that I liked what ticketmaster did for the 3 tool shows I bought tickets for. They opened a queue to wait in and at the time the tickets went live a set number of people were given a chance to pick seats in a venue and buy tickets. For those three shows I got tickets in the first 10 rows and all I did was simply wait in the queue 15 minutes before the sale went live.

How?

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2020, 10:04:11 AM »
I'd be interested to read how it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s compared to modern times when it comes to getting tickets for concerts.

Grateful Dead, you used to have to mail in to get tickets.  You sent a letter, with a check, and the dates you wanted.  You got a letter back with either your tickets, or your check and "Sorry, sold out.".

In the 80's and 90's, it was like going to get a magazine or a CD.  You would go to the Ticketmaster outlet - for me it was at Sears in Bridgeport - stand in line and when they went on sale, the man/woman working the desk would serve people one at a time.   Ever go to the box office before a show now?  Just like that.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2020, 10:09:26 AM »
But generally, if you see a show go on sale and immediately there are 100's of tickets in the secondary market at prices higher than box office (ESPECIALLY if they are not all premium, i.e. front row, seats) those tickets were undervalued. 

Just to be clear, that's only if they are actually selling at those inflated values.  Just because 100s are listed at higher prices, doesn't mean people are buying them at that price.  But generally, I agree, if people are paying the higher price on the secondary market, then the original tickets were undervalued.

100%.  It's not an exact science, and sometimes scalpers get left holding the bag.

Quote
The other side of the coin though, is if the artist did price the tickets at the higher price point, you'd have plenty of fans bitching that they were priced out.  You saw this was the Rage Against the Machine reunite tour that didn't happen.  Those tickets were VERY expensive and it pissed a lot of fans off, but it actually was maybe even under valued as those shows sold out (and I assume tickets were selling for more on secondary markets, but I never actually checked this as I'm not a big Rage fan).

Also 100%.   The Eagles - smart bastards, them - took stick for this, as has Roger Waters - another smart bastard.  For a commie, Waters knows how capitalism works!  (I'm totally joking here; no need to get offended).   Seriously, he knew people were going to pay upwards of $200 and $300 for that spectacle, and so he might as well collect that himself and bury it back in the show.   

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2020, 10:28:05 AM »
As much as that sucks to get priced out, it's really hard for me to fault a band charging what people are willing to pay. 

Some of it is risk factors too.  You price it so high that maybe you were wrong on what people were willing to pay and people don't show up.  You price it too low, the scalpers get your profits.  I've got to assume, generally, ticketmaster/livernation have done the math including the risk to price their tickets accordingly but sometimes it just doesn't work as expected.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2020, 01:31:30 PM »
As much as that sucks to get priced out, it's really hard for me to fault a band charging what people are willing to pay. 

Some of it is risk factors too.  You price it so high that maybe you were wrong on what people were willing to pay and people don't show up.  You price it too low, the scalpers get your profits.  I've got to assume, generally, ticketmaster/livernation have done the math including the risk to price their tickets accordingly but sometimes it just doesn't work as expected.

I have no proof of this, only my gut feeling, but I have to believe that Ticketmaster/Live Nation/Etc. have algorithms up the wazoo analyzing this crap.  Predictive analytics was made for this kind of analysis (figuratively speaking).

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2020, 01:35:27 PM »
As much as that sucks to get priced out, it's really hard for me to fault a band charging what people are willing to pay. 

Some of it is risk factors too.  You price it so high that maybe you were wrong on what people were willing to pay and people don't show up.  You price it too low, the scalpers get your profits.  I've got to assume, generally, ticketmaster/livernation have done the math including the risk to price their tickets accordingly but sometimes it just doesn't work as expected.

I have no proof of this, only my gut feeling, but I have to believe that Ticketmaster/Live Nation/Etc. have algorithms up the wazoo analyzing this crap.  Predictive analytics was made for this kind of analysis (figuratively speaking).

Yup, I've got not proof or insider knowledge either, but data analytics are a big thing and profits are what it's all about so I'm sure there's an algorithm that tells them the best way to make the most money to determine the ticket costs which may often lead to them being undervalued but also gauranteeing them a certain profit with less risk.  Who knows, but I think you understand.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2020, 06:32:26 PM »
I'd be interested to read how it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s compared to modern times when it comes to getting tickets for concerts.

Grateful Dead, you used to have to mail in to get tickets.  You sent a letter, with a check, and the dates you wanted.  You got a letter back with either your tickets, or your check and "Sorry, sold out.".

In the 80's and 90's, it was like going to get a magazine or a CD.  You would go to the Ticketmaster outlet - for me it was at Sears in Bridgeport - stand in line and when they went on sale, the man/woman working the desk would serve people one at a time.   Ever go to the box office before a show now?  Just like that.


HOLY SHIT....

Youtube is down...

Trying to post The Simpsons where Homer waits in line for Concert Tickets and the Scalper buys them all... :rollin :rollin
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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2020, 06:34:27 PM »
Back in the day when I would go out for tickets, there was always this weird family that would get there real early. Sometimes I would beat them and sometimes I wouldn't. There would be like six of them. Then 15 minutes before tix went on sale, a guy would show up and hand them each a wad of cash to purchase tickets.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline cramx3

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2020, 06:37:05 PM »
Back in the day when I would go out for tickets, there was always this weird family that would get there real early. Sometimes I would beat them and sometimes I wouldn't. There would be like six of them. Then 15 minutes before tix went on sale, a guy would show up and hand them each a wad of cash to purchase tickets.

 :lol wow that's interesting, not surprising but interesting that you regularly would see that family

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2020, 06:38:43 PM »
Back in the day when I would go out for tickets, there was always this weird family that would get there real early. Sometimes I would beat them and sometimes I wouldn't. There would be like six of them. Then 15 minutes before tix went on sale, a guy would show up and hand them each a wad of cash to purchase tickets.

 :lol wow that's interesting, not surprising but interesting that you regularly would see that family

Yup, and they were fucking backwoods too.  :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2020, 06:47:54 PM »
Ben Jamin, Gmillerdrake, Cram, and the Walrus in the front row! :metal
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline darkshade

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2020, 05:51:29 PM »
I'd be interested to read how it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s compared to modern times when it comes to getting tickets for concerts.

Grateful Dead, you used to have to mail in to get tickets.  You sent a letter, with a check, and the dates you wanted.  You got a letter back with either your tickets, or your check and "Sorry, sold out.".

In the 80's and 90's, it was like going to get a magazine or a CD.  You would go to the Ticketmaster outlet - for me it was at Sears in Bridgeport - stand in line and when they went on sale, the man/woman working the desk would serve people one at a time.   Ever go to the box office before a show now?  Just like that.

Thanks.

I've bought tickets the way you described in the last paragraph as recently as the late 2000s, maybe very early 2010s, at indoor shopping mall kiosks. I don't see those kiosks around anymore.

Offline Anguyen92

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Re: The Music Business/Industry Machine
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2020, 05:52:38 PM »
I'd be interested to read how it was in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even 90s compared to modern times when it comes to getting tickets for concerts.

Grateful Dead, you used to have to mail in to get tickets.  You sent a letter, with a check, and the dates you wanted.  You got a letter back with either your tickets, or your check and "Sorry, sold out.".

In the 80's and 90's, it was like going to get a magazine or a CD.  You would go to the Ticketmaster outlet - for me it was at Sears in Bridgeport - stand in line and when they went on sale, the man/woman working the desk would serve people one at a time.   Ever go to the box office before a show now?  Just like that.

Thanks.

I've bought tickets the way you described in the last paragraph as recently as the late 2000s, maybe very early 2010s, at indoor shopping mall kiosks. I don't see those kiosks around anymore.


I think Japan still does that kind of route of ticket buying at their Lawsons (basically their version of 7-11).  I think the way it works there is that you need to punch in an event number on the kiosk, print out some sort of receipt, give it to the cashier along with the money, and they give you the ticket.

This is the way they do it.

Loppi (ticketing system)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 05:57:42 PM by Anguyen92 »