Author Topic: Fascinating Spiritual Topics  (Read 1707 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2021, 09:36:37 AM »
That post is in no way not spiritual at all. Beliefs are entirely spiritual in itself, and if that's what you believe then that is how you view the world, and everyone has their own story...

I appreciate that.  I'm glad my post wasn't out of place. 

If I am understanding you right, to you, The soul is more of an identity and is what makes you, Jaffa?

Yeah, that's fairly accurate. 

To be more precise, I think the concept of the soul is a placeholder that humans use to help us grasp the more mystifying facets of consciousness and identity.  I might be wrong, the soul might exist in a more literal way, but I'm not at all convinced of that.  So yes, when I use the word 'soul', I'm using it as shorthand - for the totality of individual consciousness, personality, and identity.

Bart, are you okay with that?  Or is that broader than your idea about the collective memory?   To me, they seem pretty closely related, but you seemed to exclude "personality" from that.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2021, 09:43:25 AM »
If you're the sort of person that thinks my soul will continue on in perpetuity, be it torturous, blissful, or implanted into some barnyard animal, doesn't that necessarily include my personality? Or my consciousness? Seems to me that the whole thing would be pointless otherwise.

Hmm... I'm not sure I agree.  It's hard to say without knowing how grand the scope is. 

I'm not the sort of person who believes that your soul will continue on, but if I was, I might argue that what you are in this existence could be merely one facet of your overall True Soul, one expression of your intangible essence.  I might abandon my computer metaphor and instead suggest a new one: that You (in the metaphysical sense) are a light, and this life is just a prism you're being refracted through.  Perhaps in death you'll be restored to your original light with a greater understanding of your potentials and possibilities. 

Or, to stick with my computer metaphor, perhaps your current personality is the totality of the programming, or perhaps it's just one individual calculation You are performing on circuitry of a much grander scale.
It seems to me that all beliefs that involve an eternal soul, spirit, whatever, involve some sort of judgement or validation. Good ole I Am That I Am is damn sure the judgmental type, in all of his various mythoses. Pick a theistic/polytheistic religion and pleasing your god, or at least not pissing him off, is kind of at the crux of it. How you live, or in some cases how you die, determine where your soul goes next. I'm not sure how that can work if what you do during this life is only a secondary component of your greater soul. What would be the point in trying? Best two out of three, maybe? If we aren't evaluated solely on our own conduct, that which we presumably control, how can we be judged fairly by incorporate the part we know absolutely nothing about? Why should we bother trying?

Anybody here believe in an unconditional afterlife of some sort?

If by that you mean an afterlife that isn't based on your performance here, I kinda do.  I mean, I'm not sure, but I've often talked about my problem with religion:  it's almost always predicated on lowly, fallable humans - well, SOME of us - seeming to know what the omnipotent creator has in mind and has set forth as his plan.   Given Qanon, free gas, and whatnot, I'm confident that such a plan is likely beyond our ken.   I don't exactly believe in a cause and effect like that; if I bang strippers behind my wife's back, I don't necessarily think it leads to "eternal damnation and the fires of hell".   

I can't say that I'm free of judgment, but I do know that I find a LOT of problems with the type of "karmic" judgment that many people sign up for, and that includes spill over into the afterlife.  Is that what you're asking?
Well, it is what I'm asking, but only as an offshoot of the bigger question. I'll just say that your answer doesn't jibe with your nominal Catholicism. Something you're certainly aware of.

The bigger question, though, and what led to this one, is whether or not your personality here extends beyond your life (if you believe in an eternal soul). When you croak, and your "soul" moves onto wherever it goes, are you still Stadler? My original point was that the soul, or essence, or whatever it is that makes us each unique is nothing more than our collected memories. That makes the soul and personality much the same. If one continues beyond life, which I am not on board with, then so must the other, I'd think.

edit: I guess I just covered that, but I don't think I exclude personality from any of this. Those collected memories are, of course, integral to one's personality. The problem is that none of us can define what a soul is, or in my case, if there even is such a thing.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2021, 11:53:13 AM »
Insofar as I accept the possibility of the existence of the soul (which I don't take for granted, even though I believe in God), I certainly don't accept the possibility of the existence of a Hell.  So if we have souls that continue to exist after our bodies die, I think we have a somewhat common apres vie existence, not some in this room and some in that room, so to speak.

If.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2021, 02:02:41 PM »
I tend to that as well, since I don't really beleive in that karmic aspect of the afterlife.  So it probably is one place and not "heaven" and "hell".   (There's also a pretty good argument that "the burning fires of hell" is really just a hope for retribution toward those that offend us the most).   

Having said that, I do have a fantasy - it can't be called a "belief" - that we know or have access to all knowledge.  In other words, if I want to know who killed Kennedy, I can look up (metaphorically or for real) Kennedy and it will say "Kennedy, shot by hit team led by a consortium of Cubans and Chicago gangsters, died on November 22, 1963. Or if I want to know if that girl I was dating in college cheated on me, it will be in that book as well.   Or whether my stereo being stolen back in 1996 was an inside job. 

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2021, 02:07:55 PM »
I tend to that as well, since I don't really beleive in that karmic aspect of the afterlife.  So it probably is one place and not "heaven" and "hell".   (There's also a pretty good argument that "the burning fires of hell" is really just a hope for retribution toward those that offend us the most).   

Having said that, I do have a fantasy - it can't be called a "belief" - that we know or have access to all knowledge.  In other words, if I want to know who killed Kennedy, I can look up (metaphorically or for real) Kennedy and it will say "Kennedy, shot by hit team led by a consortium of Cubans and Chicago gangsters, died on November 22, 1963. Or if I want to know if that girl I was dating in college cheated on me, it will be in that book as well.   Or whether my stereo being stolen back in 1996 was an inside job.
I have it on good authority that it was a guy named Eddie.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2021, 02:26:51 PM »
The bigger question, though, and what led to this one, is whether or not your personality here extends beyond your life (if you believe in an eternal soul). When you croak, and your "soul" moves onto wherever it goes, are you still Stadler? My original point was that the soul, or essence, or whatever it is that makes us each unique is nothing more than our collected memories. That makes the soul and personality much the same. If one continues beyond life, which I am not on board with, then so must the other, I'd think.

I've been mulling this over, and I think all of this really just depends on the framework of the belief. 

Your basic premise (and please forgive me or correct me if this is reductive or inaccurate) is that what makes us unique is intrinsically tied to our memories.  And based on what I know about psychology and brain chemistry, I think that's an accurate assessment.  But I think you might be taking that premise for granted in a way that might not be prudent within a spiritual or religious framework. 

If you accept the existence of some kind of divinity which transcends this physical world, even for the sake of discussion, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that our uniqueness could be connected to something divine rather than something physical.  Maybe our souls have unique characteristics which transcend memory and personality, and which cannot be evaluated or recognized without divine understanding. 

Take a concept like reincarnation.  Your view (if I am understanding and representing it correctly) would be that if you die and are reincarnated without the personality or memories you built in this life, you essentially wouldn't actually be You anymore.  But I think the basic concept of reincarnation presupposes that there's more to You than just the memories and personality you built in this life.  In some frameworks, it is believed that you do retain memories from past lives, and you can access them through some form of enlightenment. 

So I think it's difficult to make any broad strokes on something like this.  There's too many variables between beliefs. 

I suspect that most belief systems with an afterlife generally do suppose that your personality and memories carry on into that afterlife. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline El Barto

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2021, 03:01:53 PM »
That's an excellent post, and I'm going to have to chew on it a bit. I get what you're saying, and it seems perfectly valid. On a philosophical level I've still got a problem with it, though, and it's going to take some thought to work out.

On a side note, driving home during lunch the local PBS station aired a syndicated show called The Pulse. It's essentially an hour featuring different stories and discussions for a greater theme. In this case the theme was "the self," and the first segment was all about the role of memory in the concept of the self. Exactly what I started a few days ago. And, it told me pretty much zilch.  :lol What I did gather from it, though, was that most people seem to think exactly the opposite of what I'm suggesting. Autobiographical memories aren't the defining characteristic. Go figure. No surprise that I'm the oddball here.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2021, 03:13:24 PM »
That's an excellent post, and I'm going to have to chew on it a bit. I get what you're saying, and it seems perfectly valid. On a philosophical level I've still got a problem with it, though, and it's going to take some thought to work out.

I will look forward to hearing your thoughts whenever you've got them organized.  :)

On a side note, driving home during lunch the local PBS station aired a syndicated show called The Pulse. It's essentially an hour featuring different stories and discussions for a greater theme. In this case the theme was "the self," and the first segment was all about the role of memory in the concept of the self. Exactly what I started a few days ago. And, it told me pretty much zilch.  :lol What I did gather from it, though, was that most people seem to think exactly the opposite of what I'm suggesting. Autobiographical memories aren't the defining characteristic. Go figure. No surprise that I'm the oddball here.

Huh.  I may have to check that out myself.  I think I largely share your view on defining the self, so I'm curious about their counterpoint. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2021, 03:57:09 PM »
If "I" carry on, but without my memories, then what's the point?

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2021, 04:08:31 PM »
Perfectly valid question.  I'm not sure I'm well equipped to answer it.  I can only speculate.  In the grand scheme of things, I don't see any reason why there would necessarily have to be any point or meaning at all.  And if there is one, it might be anything from growth of the soul (measured by the hypothetical characteristics that transcend memory and personality) to simple amusement of a higher power. 

I'm mostly just trying to speak to the breadth of possibility. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2021, 08:32:41 PM »
If "I" carry on, but without my memories, then what's the point?

Some would say, the point of it all isn't what to expect in the after. But, the EXPERIENCE of living in the now, and living a life you feel you lived enough. It's how some people can die contempt, and others don't want to die as they see they haven't lived a fulfilled life (Doing things you haven't gotten a chance to do).

It's why I find stories about Near-Death Experiences to be really telling. That is, If you yourself will believe that persons word and take it as truth. You won't really know unless it happens to you, and you yourself experience it. So all, we, whom have not had a Near-Death Experience, have to go on is that persons, whom did have that experience, perception. Will you take their words as a factual story, or consider them a liar and is making it all up. That is putting Trust and Faith into another's words because you yourself haven't experienced what that person has actually experienced.

Because once a person does have one of these many life experiences, that one experience can change a persons belief, trust, and faith. It can make a person do a complete 180 on whom they identify themselves as. I think that is called a rebirth or reawakening. These experiences can also challenge one's Belief, Faith, and Trust.





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Offline Stadler

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2021, 07:52:29 AM »
If "I" carry on, but without my memories, then what's the point?

Why can't it be both, though?   Unless El Barto means it in the broader sense, if we look back, there are things we don't remember the details of, but remember the "essence".   And - and I've written about this before - there are things we remember that are provably untrue, yet we carry that memory with us.   I met up with some people I knew from high school a couple years ago, mostly people I hadn't seen in over 30 years, and it was fascinating what some people remembered and some didn't.  And there were a few moments of... I'm not sure what the word is, but discomfort comes to mind, when my recollections didn't jive with that of the group.  When those "memories" - whether true or not, whether conscious or not - drive other decisions, and go into creating other memories, you sort of develop self that is rooted in your memory but I can't shake the feeling that at some point it isn't JUST memory.  It's almost like you're baking cake; the memories are the flour or the eggs; when you eat the cake, you taste cake, it looks like cake.  It couldn't be there without the flour and eggs, but it's so much more than JUST flour and eggs.

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2021, 08:48:44 AM »
If "I" carry on, but without my memories, then what's the point?

Why can't it be both, though?   Unless El Barto means it in the broader sense, if we look back, there are things we don't remember the details of, but remember the "essence".   And - and I've written about this before - there are things we remember that are provably untrue, yet we carry that memory with us.   I met up with some people I knew from high school a couple years ago, mostly people I hadn't seen in over 30 years, and it was fascinating what some people remembered and some didn't.  And there were a few moments of... I'm not sure what the word is, but discomfort comes to mind, when my recollections didn't jive with that of the group.  When those "memories" - whether true or not, whether conscious or not - drive other decisions, and go into creating other memories, you sort of develop self that is rooted in your memory but I can't shake the feeling that at some point it isn't JUST memory.  It's almost like you're baking cake; the memories are the flour or the eggs; when you eat the cake, you taste cake, it looks like cake.  It couldn't be there without the flour and eggs, but it's so much more than JUST flour and eggs.
Can I be a black forest cake?  That's my favorite.
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2021, 08:51:32 AM »
I'm reading along.

Oh, and the cake is a lie.    :)  (video game reference)
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2021, 09:12:28 AM »
I'm reading along.

Oh, and the cake is a lie.    :)  (video game reference)

"Anyways this cake is great, it's so delicious and moist"

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2021, 10:03:30 AM »
Red velvet cake, for me.   Or carrot cake (I know, I know, but I LOVE it).

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2021, 10:06:39 AM »
Red velvet cake, for me.

My man...

Or carrot cake (I know, I know, but I LOVE it).

Typical Stadler....
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2021, 10:10:13 AM »
But what if you end up being a Fruit Cake?  :justjen    :biggrin:
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2021, 12:21:40 PM »
The bigger question, though, and what led to this one, is whether or not your personality here extends beyond your life (if you believe in an eternal soul). When you croak, and your "soul" moves onto wherever it goes, are you still Stadler? My original point was that the soul, or essence, or whatever it is that makes us each unique is nothing more than our collected memories. That makes the soul and personality much the same. If one continues beyond life, which I am not on board with, then so must the other, I'd think.

I've been mulling this over, and I think all of this really just depends on the framework of the belief. 

Your basic premise (and please forgive me or correct me if this is reductive or inaccurate) is that what makes us unique is intrinsically tied to our memories.  And based on what I know about psychology and brain chemistry, I think that's an accurate assessment.  But I think you might be taking that premise for granted in a way that might not be prudent within a spiritual or religious framework. 

If you accept the existence of some kind of divinity which transcends this physical world, even for the sake of discussion, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that our uniqueness could be connected to something divine rather than something physical.  Maybe our souls have unique characteristics which transcend memory and personality, and which cannot be evaluated or recognized without divine understanding. 
Well, you're certainly correct that I'm approaching this outside of the spiritual and religious framework as they're not functional components in my worldview. However, incorporating them takes us back to the Catch-22 we hit on earlier, and Hef more recently. Why bother? I'm in a difficult situation here because I don't actually believe in free will, but I like to at least think I understand what parts of my psyche are in play. I've got my memories, my personality, and my thought processes that determine who and what I am. Incorporating a random variable that I'm incapable of understanding kind of negates those known quantities.

Moreover, there's also the problem that those spiritual and religious components also tend to be judgemental, as we discussed earlier.


Quote
Take a concept like reincarnation.  Your view (if I am understanding and representing it correctly) would be that if you die and are reincarnated without the personality or memories you built in this life, you essentially wouldn't actually be You anymore.  But I think the basic concept of reincarnation presupposes that there's more to You than just the memories and personality you built in this life.  In some frameworks, it is believed that you do retain memories from past lives, and you can access them through some form of enlightenment. 

So I think it's difficult to make any broad strokes on something like this.  There's too many variables between beliefs. 

I suspect that most belief systems with an afterlife generally do suppose that your personality and memories carry on into that afterlife.
I don't really have a functional concept of reincarnation, per se, and certainly nothing as convoluted as the Hindu version, but I have to think that the same problems arise. First, if you have no previous connection to the previous life, then you're not the same person/soul/unique individual. And just as important, why bother?

In the end, though, we really are just spitballing here, which was exactly what I was doing when I originally linked the soul to memory. None of this is verifiable, and even definitions are all speculative. It's just interesting to hear some different thoughts on the matter. Shame we didn't get more takers.
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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2021, 09:26:26 AM »
Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM


See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

Beliefs are rarely proven as facts. Hypotheses are proven as facts and that in turn becomes a scientific theory which is nothing more than a body of facts. THAT is science in a nutshell!
 
People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

People have faith in science?  NO people ACCEPT science because of the hard work that smart people took to prove a hypothesis.  Of course, if you prove something as a fact and people choose not to believe that fact – well that’s the very definition of a fool.
 
Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

No faith needed – I hire a mechanic to work on my car because I am not qualified to work on it. I hire a plumber to work on the pipes because I can’t and wouldn’t even try but I can check on these professionals' credentials and come to a reasonable decision whether to use their services or not. 
 
For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

Reasonable people are usually agreeable to being corrected if they make a mistake. Do you have an example where an expert was made to look stupid?
 
And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

True – this forum could be defined as a cult but I would bet good money that no one on this forum goes to bed at night, clasps their hands together and thinks hard thoughts (pray) of goodness to Bosk1 or anyone else on this forum. Or ask that this forum cure them from cancer.

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2021, 10:59:18 AM »
Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM


See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

Beliefs are rarely proven as facts. Hypotheses are proven as facts and that in turn becomes a scientific theory which is nothing more than a body of facts. THAT is science in a nutshell!
 
People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

People have faith in science?  NO people ACCEPT science because of the hard work that smart people took to prove a hypothesis.  Of course, if you prove something as a fact and people choose not to believe that fact – well that’s the very definition of a fool.
 
Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

No faith needed – I hire a mechanic to work on my car because I am not qualified to work on it. I hire a plumber to work on the pipes because I can’t and wouldn’t even try but I can check on these professionals' credentials and come to a reasonable decision whether to use their services or not. 
 
For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

Reasonable people are usually agreeable to being corrected if they make a mistake. Do you have an example where an expert was made to look stupid?
 
And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

True – this forum could be defined as a cult but I would bet good money that no one on this forum goes to bed at night, clasps their hands together and thinks hard thoughts (pray) of goodness to Bosk1 or anyone else on this forum. Or ask that this forum cure them from cancer.

I hear you on a lot of this...

Hypothesis, are theories, regardless if they are conspiratorial or not. They are still theory's that should be proven, to be either, a True (and this can be debated to what is truth) or a False hypothesis. If that hypothesis is proven false, that scientist will likely try and make another hypothesis, based on that factual false evidence.

Unless, something comes along that completely changes everything and ends up proving that false hypothesis was actually true, based on the new evidence that was just discovered.

This is what I was getting at with...What if the belief ends up being proven as fact?

Has anyone even made a hypothesis to prove a belief is fact?

What Science proves is the physical reality of what we can see, smell, hear, touch, and taste. Science also proves and shows that there are things that we can not see, smell, hear, touch, and taste. Animals, can see, smell, hear, touch, and taste these things. We can not. So does that mean they do not exist? No. It just means we Humans are not capable of seeing, smelling, hearing, touching, or tasting these things. Our minds are not capable of this. Although, we can Feel it within ourselves, that feeling you get when you think someone is there, that feeling where someone is watching you, the vibe of the room. The Sun emits energy that affects us here on Earth and everything within it. By the use of the magnetic poles, they control the weather. While we can not see these with our own bodies and eyes, we do see it working throughout time, and now we have devices that can see these things for us. The many Radioactive Waves, and all that fun science stuff that happens in the sun.

A great example where an expert is made to look stupid, this taken from Wiki:

Quote
The idea of a spherical Earth appeared in ancient Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most pre-Socratics (6th–5th century BC) retained the flat Earth model. In the early 4th century BC Plato wrote about a spherical Earth, and by about 330 BC his former student, Aristotle, had provided strong empirical evidence for this. Knowledge of the Earth's global shape then gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world

I mean because of this you have people calling people whom believe in Flat Earth stupid, when it was common knowledge in the ancient times. Until that was proven to be false by this person. But what if that ends up being proven false again and it is actually Flat?

You don't have to be worshipping and praying to them to be considered a cult. All you need is a group of people devoted to praising whatever/whomever you are devoting yourself too. Here it is Dream Theater, we are all here because of our devoted love for this band. It is up to us whether we stay on here or go. It's up to you whether you want to stay or go. It's still a cult, just not the kind you are used to seeing...The kind that are Worship Cults, these are the manipulative ones.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Stadler

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2021, 08:18:18 AM »
Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM


See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

Beliefs are rarely proven as facts. Hypotheses are proven as facts and that in turn becomes a scientific theory which is nothing more than a body of facts. THAT is science in a nutshell!
 
People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

People have faith in science?  NO people ACCEPT science because of the hard work that smart people took to prove a hypothesis.  Of course, if you prove something as a fact and people choose not to believe that fact – well that’s the very definition of a fool.
 
Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

No faith needed – I hire a mechanic to work on my car because I am not qualified to work on it. I hire a plumber to work on the pipes because I can’t and wouldn’t even try but I can check on these professionals' credentials and come to a reasonable decision whether to use their services or not. 
 
For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

Reasonable people are usually agreeable to being corrected if they make a mistake. Do you have an example where an expert was made to look stupid?
 
And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

True – this forum could be defined as a cult but I would bet good money that no one on this forum goes to bed at night, clasps their hands together and thinks hard thoughts (pray) of goodness to Bosk1 or anyone else on this forum. Or ask that this forum cure them from cancer.

I think, respectfully, you're dealing in semantics and wordplay here, especially that part about "faith" in science.   It may not be "faith" as in the belief of an unproven God, but there is a degree of "faith" put in.   Science isn't always "black" and "white", and "yes" and "no".  I'm a big fan of "maybe", myself, and I'm on a sort of crusade (in my head) to rid the world of dumb-ass exclusionary phrases like "it's not ok", which LITERALLY lumps "maybe" in with "no" thereby neutralizing those that choose not to decide.   Look at all the studies regarding "coffee" (wine is another one) and whether it is good or bad for you.  Or at what quantities.

For those of us that have taken physics and chemistry classes, we  might know some of the basics in what is science, but certainly when you introduce things like commerce, politics, and social justice, "science" sometimes isn't the only variable in the equation.   

I watched too many videos of politicians talking about "science", then completely disregarding said "science" when arriving at their conclusions.  I can prepare a list as long as my arm of things that are accepted and regarded that directly oppose the data and facts of the issue.   And as soon as they come up, we get the "but..., but..." rationalizations.


Offline Vmadera00

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2021, 09:31:41 AM »
Has anyone even made a hypothesis to prove a belief is fact?

What Science proves is the physical reality of what we can see, smell, hear, touch, and taste. Science also proves and shows that there are things that we can not see, smell, hear, touch, and taste. Animals, can see, smell, hear, touch, and taste these things. We can not. So does that mean they do not exist? No. It just means we Humans are not capable of seeing, smelling, hearing, touching, or tasting these things. Our minds are not capable of this. Although, we can Feel it within ourselves, that feeling you get when you think someone is there, that feeling where someone is watching you, the vibe of the room. The Sun emits energy that affects us here on Earth and everything within it. By the use of the magnetic poles, they control the weather. While we can not see these with our own bodies and eyes, we do see it working throughout time, and now we have devices that can see these things for us. The many Radioactive Waves, and all that fun science stuff that happens in the sun.

A great example where an expert is made to look stupid, this taken from Wiki:

Quote
The idea of a spherical Earth appeared in ancient Greek philosophy with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most pre-Socratics (6th–5th century BC) retained the flat Earth model. In the early 4th century BC Plato wrote about a spherical Earth, and by about 330 BC his former student, Aristotle, had provided strong empirical evidence for this. Knowledge of the Earth's global shape then gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world

I mean because of this you have people calling people whom believe in Flat Earth stupid, when it was common knowledge in the ancient times. Until that was proven to be false by this person. But what if that ends up being proven false again and it is actually Flat?

Just commenting on the bolded.

Yes, there have been people that set out to prove a belief (if we are talking about religion and spirituality), and often they fall into a trap. This leads to my next point.

You are right that we cannot see, smell, hear, touch or taste everything, but lets also not jump to conclusions and call them spiritual. The human senses are very limited, and the trap that a lot of people fall into is what is called "God of the gap". If you aren't familiar with this term, it's just the misconception that just because we don't understand something, or there is a gap in scientific knowledge, does not mean or prove the existence of any spiritual being, it just means we don't understand it.

Newton, someone who is regarded as one of the most influential scientist in history, is believed to have fallen into the "god the of gaps" trap with his understand of gravity, until Eintein came around and explain the things Newton didn't understand about gravity (Theory of relativity).

Also, the last part about flat earth. No, that was not common knowledge, that was false knowledge that at the moment no one had any means to prove the Earth was flat or round, so they went with the belief that it was flat, until some came up with a way to prove its real shape.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2021, 09:52:59 AM »
Quote from: hunnus2000 on March 19, 2021, 10:46:49 AM

Quote from: Ben_Jamin on March 19, 2021, 09:27:00 AM


See, here's the thing. What happens when that belief ends up being proven as fact? That is Science in a nutshell.

Beliefs are rarely proven as facts. Hypotheses are proven as facts and that in turn becomes a scientific theory which is nothing more than a body of facts. THAT is science in a nutshell!
 
People have Faith in Science, but also they don't have to believe it. Just like people have faith in the new dream theater album being good, doesn't mean they believe it will be. Upon release, it's proven to be either true to your faith and belief it will be good, or totally prove your belief and faith wrong. Yet, you still hold faith for the new album and the tour being good, and maybe the songs being played live will convert you to believe the album is actually good.

People have faith in science?  NO people ACCEPT science because of the hard work that smart people took to prove a hypothesis.  Of course, if you prove something as a fact and people choose not to believe that fact – well that’s the very definition of a fool.
 
Also, how do you become an expert? Sometimes, the expert doesn't know everything either. They aren't perfect as well. Which is why you have to have faith that the expert is telling you the truth as well. And when that faith is tested many times, and shown to be deceitful, it's kind of hard to trust the expert. Especially when they flip-flop.

No faith needed – I hire a mechanic to work on my car because I am not qualified to work on it. I hire a plumber to work on the pipes because I can’t and wouldn’t even try but I can check on these professionals' credentials and come to a reasonable decision whether to use their services or not. 
 
For me, I don't consider no one an expert at anything. They are more well-versed and well-informed of what they do. And sometimes, people come in and say something to that expert which makes that expert look stupid, because they never bothered to think of it, and therefore it changes their perspective. These things can happen the more time goes on.

Reasonable people are usually agreeable to being corrected if they make a mistake. Do you have an example where an expert was made to look stupid?
 
And also...This forum is a cult. Fandom is a cult. Everything in this world can be a cult.

True – this forum could be defined as a cult but I would bet good money that no one on this forum goes to bed at night, clasps their hands together and thinks hard thoughts (pray) of goodness to Bosk1 or anyone else on this forum. Or ask that this forum cure them from cancer.

I think, respectfully, you're dealing in semantics and wordplay here, especially that part about "faith" in science.   It may not be "faith" as in the belief of an unproven God, but there is a degree of "faith" put in.   Science isn't always "black" and "white", and "yes" and "no".  I'm a big fan of "maybe", myself, and I'm on a sort of crusade (in my head) to rid the world of dumb-ass exclusionary phrases like "it's not ok", which LITERALLY lumps "maybe" in with "no" thereby neutralizing those that choose not to decide.   Look at all the studies regarding "coffee" (wine is another one) and whether it is good or bad for you.  Or at what quantities.

For those of us that have taken physics and chemistry classes, we  might know some of the basics in what is science, but certainly when you introduce things like commerce, politics, and social justice, "science" sometimes isn't the only variable in the equation.   

I watched too many videos of politicians talking about "science", then completely disregarding said "science" when arriving at their conclusions.  I can prepare a list as long as my arm of things that are accepted and regarded that directly oppose the data and facts of the issue.   And as soon as they come up, we get the "but..., but..." rationalizations.

Precisely my point. People forget this about Science. And this isn't even including the ones that get neglected or even shunned. Look at Nikola Tesla and his Free Energy devices. Now imagine if we were to have given him his time and money for his projects. We'd be having Wireless in the 1900's.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2021, 05:15:17 PM »
I've been thinking...

And what I've been thinking about is that are we currently experiencing a Generational Shift?

As, I was on the net, I soon decided to look up Generational Shifts and found this fascinting article on these "Generational Shifts" in Astrology related terms.

What I find fascinating is how I continue to live and learn, and research and investigate. I am finding things that relate to how I actually think, feel and believe about certain spiritual philosophies.

Quote
Every mutation, great or otherwise, shares this aura of change. Beginnings, to use Abū Ma’šar’s word, also entail endings. And as a social and political process, change is always accompanied by a drag, as people who adhere to or benefit from the old regime resist the new one. And so, we can observe this process with the next mutation, when the Jupiter-Saturn moved from fire into earth.

The era of the fire mutation included the Industrial Revolution which resulted in a massive increase in the utilisation of power. This period was also called the Age of Enlightenment, a time when reason was extolled, like the earlier fire mutation in 769 featured the Arabic translations of Greek science at the House of Wisdom. But even during a period when secularisation spread, on a political front, the absolutism of kings was celebrated. However, the waning days of the fire period included the American and French Revolutions – reactions to this concentration of power. This struggle between people and monarch reached its apex with Napoleon who began as a revolutionary (1793) and ended as an emperor (1804). His death in 1821 marked the year of the Jupiter-Saturn retrogression back into fire. Then, as the earth element reasserted itself, massive public works – dams, canals, water systems, transportation infrastructure, utilities – transformed the landscape. These years are shown in Table 1-2.

The first air conjunction occurred in 1980. Contemporary American astrologers were most struck by the fact that President Reagan, while attacked, was the first president not to die in office when associated with the years of the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction: a subject which I have covered in another article. The breaking of the so-called Tecumseh's Curse was the first indication that circumstances had changed. Having examined the series of Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions for Washington DC, I am less convinced of a curse than a really hideous series of charts from the standpoint of the 10th house, which represents the president.

https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article201102_e.htm
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Online hunnus2000

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2021, 01:45:14 PM »
I've been thinking...

And what I've been thinking about is that are we currently experiencing a Generational Shift?

As, I was on the net, I soon decided to look up Generational Shifts and found this fascinting article on these "Generational Shifts" in Astrology related terms.

What I find fascinating is how I continue to live and learn, and research and investigate. I am finding things that relate to how I actually think, feel and believe about certain spiritual philosophies.

Quote
Every mutation, great or otherwise, shares this aura of change. Beginnings, to use Abū Ma’šar’s word, also entail endings. And as a social and political process, change is always accompanied by a drag, as people who adhere to or benefit from the old regime resist the new one. And so, we can observe this process with the next mutation, when the Jupiter-Saturn moved from fire into earth.

The era of the fire mutation included the Industrial Revolution which resulted in a massive increase in the utilisation of power. This period was also called the Age of Enlightenment, a time when reason was extolled, like the earlier fire mutation in 769 featured the Arabic translations of Greek science at the House of Wisdom. But even during a period when secularisation spread, on a political front, the absolutism of kings was celebrated. However, the waning days of the fire period included the American and French Revolutions – reactions to this concentration of power. This struggle between people and monarch reached its apex with Napoleon who began as a revolutionary (1793) and ended as an emperor (1804). His death in 1821 marked the year of the Jupiter-Saturn retrogression back into fire. Then, as the earth element reasserted itself, massive public works – dams, canals, water systems, transportation infrastructure, utilities – transformed the landscape. These years are shown in Table 1-2.

The first air conjunction occurred in 1980. Contemporary American astrologers were most struck by the fact that President Reagan, while attacked, was the first president not to die in office when associated with the years of the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction: a subject which I have covered in another article. The breaking of the so-called Tecumseh's Curse was the first indication that circumstances had changed. Having examined the series of Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions for Washington DC, I am less convinced of a curse than a really hideous series of charts from the standpoint of the 10th house, which represents the president.

https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article201102_e.htm

So your citing a lady with a PHD  - in botany???  ???

I'll read it and boy howdy - I will respond...... :metal

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2021, 03:01:59 PM »
I've been thinking...

And what I've been thinking about is that are we currently experiencing a Generational Shift?

As, I was on the net, I soon decided to look up Generational Shifts and found this fascinting article on these "Generational Shifts" in Astrology related terms.

What I find fascinating is how I continue to live and learn, and research and investigate. I am finding things that relate to how I actually think, feel and believe about certain spiritual philosophies.

Quote
Every mutation, great or otherwise, shares this aura of change. Beginnings, to use Abū Ma’šar’s word, also entail endings. And as a social and political process, change is always accompanied by a drag, as people who adhere to or benefit from the old regime resist the new one. And so, we can observe this process with the next mutation, when the Jupiter-Saturn moved from fire into earth.

The era of the fire mutation included the Industrial Revolution which resulted in a massive increase in the utilisation of power. This period was also called the Age of Enlightenment, a time when reason was extolled, like the earlier fire mutation in 769 featured the Arabic translations of Greek science at the House of Wisdom. But even during a period when secularisation spread, on a political front, the absolutism of kings was celebrated. However, the waning days of the fire period included the American and French Revolutions – reactions to this concentration of power. This struggle between people and monarch reached its apex with Napoleon who began as a revolutionary (1793) and ended as an emperor (1804). His death in 1821 marked the year of the Jupiter-Saturn retrogression back into fire. Then, as the earth element reasserted itself, massive public works – dams, canals, water systems, transportation infrastructure, utilities – transformed the landscape. These years are shown in Table 1-2.

The first air conjunction occurred in 1980. Contemporary American astrologers were most struck by the fact that President Reagan, while attacked, was the first president not to die in office when associated with the years of the Jupiter-Saturn conjunction: a subject which I have covered in another article. The breaking of the so-called Tecumseh's Curse was the first indication that circumstances had changed. Having examined the series of Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions for Washington DC, I am less convinced of a curse than a really hideous series of charts from the standpoint of the 10th house, which represents the president.

https://www.astro.com/astrology/aa_article201102_e.htm

So your citing a lady with a PHD  - in botany???  ???

I'll read it and boy howdy - I will respond...... :metal

Dude, I'm not citing anyone.

I just find the article interesting and posted because others might find it interesting as well....

I am interested in what you have to say though... :corn :yarr :coolio :hat
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Fascinating Spiritual Topics
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2021, 10:50:04 PM »
Here's a video that best describes a lot of things I talk about.

The Apocalypse of Belief - Healing Our Culture - Dr. Bruce Lipton


This is Science beginning to understand the things that we indigenous people understood. And this is because we lived it, and our struggle is that way of life we've been living has been disrupted. Our habitat has been disrupted, like how the life and ecology of the Amazon is disrupted for the development, depleting the necessities life needs to sustain itself and everything in the world.


Edit: Here is a longer more in depth interview he does about the subject.

https://earthheroestv.com/programs/architects-of-a-new-civilisation-the-regeneration-with-bruce-h-lipton
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 11:12:28 PM by Ben_Jamin »
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I