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Offline lonestar

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The Immigration Thread
« on: March 22, 2021, 10:57:35 AM »
Thought we could use a separate thread to discuss this growing issue here in America and abroad. As I said elsewhere, it's not an issue that can be attributed to one party or administration, they've all had a hand in kicking this thing down the road, both root causes and how to deal with the current influx. I'd prefer to avoid blame and more analyze causes and solutions, but we'll see how that goes lol.


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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2021, 12:08:33 PM »
For one, the focus needs to be on why are they abandoning their country, or more their homeland?

The focus should be on how bad their government is treating them that they have no choice but to leave.

Second, Does the US and Mexico have the resources and availability of things to accommodate the sudden influx of these people?
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2021, 03:57:28 PM »
Speaking only about Europe, my simplified and probably simplistic take on the causes are:

1. A desire (increasingly a need) for cheap/slave labour among the '1st-world' nations like Britain, France and Germany. 

2. The war-mongering and pillaging of the resources of 'lesser' nations (think the British Empire's exploits in colonies like Uganda, Kenya, Ghana, Gambia, Nigeria, Tanzania, Sierra Leone). Some of the family on my mother's side - 2 of her sisters and their children - are dumb racist fucktards and whenever they go to London for a weekend they come back complaining about "all the fucking coons on the streets". These are the very same people who in the next sentence will glorify the halcyon days of the Empire.

3. The blameless aspect of people just wanting to move to a nicer geographical area. The second Ukraine joins the EU (hypothetical, it won't happen in my lifetime) half the populations of Kharkiv and Dnipro and Luhansk will be looking into moving to Rome or Paris or Barcelona, because Kharkiv and Dnipro and Luhansk are freezing cold and grim as fuck.   


Many other reasons of course but I think those are the main 3 in Europe. America has the whole 'drug war'/invading countries over a fruit company going on, it's more complex there.
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2021, 04:05:32 PM »
Speaking only about Europe, my simplified and probably simplistic take on the causes are:

1. A desire (increasingly a need) for cheap/slave labour among the '1st-world' nations like Britain, France and Germany. 

2. The war-mongering and pillaging of the resources of 'lesser' nations (think the British Empire's exploits in colonies like Uganda, Kenya, Ghana, Gambia, Nigeria, Tanzania, Sierra Leone). Some of the family on my mother's side - 2 of her sisters and their children - are dumb racist fucktards and whenever they go to London for a weekend they come back complaining about "all the fucking coons on the streets". These are the very same people who in the next sentence will glorify the halcyon days of the Empire.

3. The blameless aspect of people just wanting to move to a nicer geographical area. The second Ukraine joins the EU (hypothetical, it won't happen in my lifetime) half the populations of Kharkiv and Dnipro and Luhansk will be looking into moving to Rome or Paris or Barcelona, because Kharkiv and Dnipro and Luhansk are freezing cold and grim as fuck.   


Many other reasons of course but I think those are the main 3 in Europe. America has the whole 'drug war'/invading countries over a fruit company going on, it's more complex there.


Yup, Our problem began when these Immigrants came on these big white clouds known as Ships.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2021, 05:05:47 PM »
Speaking only about Europe, my simplified and probably simplistic take on the causes are:

1. A desire (increasingly a need) for cheap/slave labour among the '1st-world' nations like Britain, France and Germany. 

2. The war-mongering and pillaging of the resources of 'lesser' nations (think the British Empire's exploits in colonies like Uganda, Kenya, Ghana, Gambia, Nigeria, Tanzania, Sierra Leone). Some of the family on my mother's side - 2 of her sisters and their children - are dumb racist fucktards and whenever they go to London for a weekend they come back complaining about "all the fucking coons on the streets". These are the very same people who in the next sentence will glorify the halcyon days of the Empire.

3. The blameless aspect of people just wanting to move to a nicer geographical area. The second Ukraine joins the EU (hypothetical, it won't happen in my lifetime) half the populations of Kharkiv and Dnipro and Luhansk will be looking into moving to Rome or Paris or Barcelona, because Kharkiv and Dnipro and Luhansk are freezing cold and grim as fuck.   


Many other reasons of course but I think those are the main 3 in Europe. America has the whole 'drug war'/invading countries over a fruit company going on, it's more complex there.


Yup, Our problem began when these Immigrants came on these big white clouds known as Ships.

And they brought all types of gifts...small pox, syphilis, guns...

Online MirrorMask

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2021, 02:50:00 AM »
As complex as the problem is, I think people worldwide should get into their heads that immigration isn't going away. There will always be cause for people to migrate from a place to the other, those thinking that they can keep foreign people away from their nation are deluding themselves.

Take for example colonialism and indipendence movements - how long it took to the world power to realize that keeping empires was a lost cause? in Africa, Asia and the Americas all territories, sooner or later, wanted to break free. There was no point in trying forever and ever to keep those colonies, anyone back in the day of colonialism and indipendence movements should have been wise enough to realize that it was the way the world was going, that all colonies would break free eventually.

Same with immigration. Any person who believes their nation can be made immigrants-free is naive, and any politician that tries to exploit that belief is a sly jackal that preys on one of people's most ancient fears, the distrust of the different one. One century ago jews were the cause of all problems, now immigrants are. People will always migrate, understand it and accept it already.

Of course with this I don't mean there sholdn't be rules and regulations about it, of course there has to be. But the sooner people learn that people will always migrate and that politicians that present immigrants as the cause of all problems need to be erased from public life ASAP, the better.
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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2021, 09:32:58 AM »
As complex as the problem is, I think people worldwide should get into their heads that immigration isn't going away. There will always be cause for people to migrate from a place to the other, those thinking that they can keep foreign people away from their nation are deluding themselves.

Take for example colonialism and indipendence movements - how long it took to the world power to realize that keeping empires was a lost cause? in Africa, Asia and the Americas all territories, sooner or later, wanted to break free. There was no point in trying forever and ever to keep those colonies, anyone back in the day of colonialism and indipendence movements should have been wise enough to realize that it was the way the world was going, that all colonies would break free eventually.

Same with immigration. Any person who believes their nation can be made immigrants-free is naive, and any politician that tries to exploit that belief is a sly jackal that preys on one of people's most ancient fears, the distrust of the different one. One century ago jews were the cause of all problems, now immigrants are. People will always migrate, understand it and accept it already.

Of course with this I don't mean there sholdn't be rules and regulations about it, of course there has to be. But the sooner people learn that people will always migrate and that politicians that present immigrants as the cause of all problems need to be erased from public life ASAP, the better.


Yup. People have been migrating since the beginning of time. My native people have been doing this and where in the process of this when the Colonizers came. We were doing this before as well. People left places because of the evil ways, like the Mayan and the Aztec Sacrifices, that the ones in power were doing to the people. They left by clans and went in search of their new home and place to live.

Even then, we had ways to incorporate and see if these new immigrants from other places were capable of living the right way within the village, and whether they have knowledge that is beneficial for the people. Mostly, these were clans that migrated together.

Immigration will not go away any time soon. As long as the nation's continue demeaning the people, the people will rise and either destroy the old and re-build, or pack up and leave.

It's much harder now to do this, due to colonization and Private Property, where one acre you can't cross or you'll be shot. That is if that person isnt compassionate..

Also, entitlement of land is another issue related to immigration. People used to do things for themselves, like farm, and build their own houses. Now that the government declares this land due to entitlement, they pushed farmer's to the side and even tear up their land to build "infrastructure" like paved roads or cattle grazing. So these people are forced to find another place to farm and live, and that is getting smaller and smaller and more harder to do today.

The problem with Immigration begins solely and is the responsibility of the government in power of that land.


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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2021, 12:33:30 PM »
As complex as the problem is, I think people worldwide should get into their heads that immigration isn't going away. There will always be cause for people to migrate from a place to the other, those thinking that they can keep foreign people away from their nation are deluding themselves.

Take for example colonialism and indipendence movements - how long it took to the world power to realize that keeping empires was a lost cause? in Africa, Asia and the Americas all territories, sooner or later, wanted to break free. There was no point in trying forever and ever to keep those colonies, anyone back in the day of colonialism and indipendence movements should have been wise enough to realize that it was the way the world was going, that all colonies would break free eventually.

Same with immigration. Any person who believes their nation can be made immigrants-free is naive, and any politician that tries to exploit that belief is a sly jackal that preys on one of people's most ancient fears, the distrust of the different one. One century ago jews were the cause of all problems, now immigrants are. People will always migrate, understand it and accept it already.

Of course with this I don't mean there sholdn't be rules and regulations about it, of course there has to be. But the sooner people learn that people will always migrate and that politicians that present immigrants as the cause of all problems need to be erased from public life ASAP, the better.

I'm getting a little theoretical here, but the problem isn't in countries like the U.S. recognizing that immigration is here to stay; we've known that for 125 years now.  What has to happen is the countries FEEDING the immigration to recognize what they are losing in not providing a better level of sustenance to those people.  Here in the U.S. the problem isn't the people coming in, it's the way they are coming in.  In our "out of sight, out of mind" country, if the people coming in were doing so legally, and with a plan, with a system in place to integrate them over a reasonable period of time, this issue would be capital "BORING!" in about six months.  The real problem is that the countries LOSING these immigrants are the ones' suffering.  It would make more sense, globally, not for someone to travel 5,000 miles to come to America to work in a factory, but for a U.S. company to invest in a factory in tha country and put that person and 1999 of their neighbors to work. 

Offline Nekov

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 02:08:02 PM »
Well Stads, as Dave and Lonestar mentioned in another thread, a lot of the trouble that these countries have is caused by the US and Europe. Years, centuries of colonialism and plundering resources from these third world countries have driven them to the situation they are in right now.
Non of the economic leaders benefit from lesser countries getting better economies because that would mean that they either become competitors or that they will buy less products from leading countries which will in turn hurt their economies. That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.
You talk about US companies opening factories or offices in other countries. Let me tell you, we have Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, you name it. Almost every big name has either an office or a factory here that provide jobs, but that really means nothing when the overall economy of the country is shit. And that economy is shit, because that is what benefits the greater players. Otherwise, how would you get cheap clothes? How would you get cheap cell phones? Slave labor on other parts of the world guarantees that Europe and the US can sustain the high living standards you guys are accustomed to.
Governments in these poor countries are corrupt as they can be, I know that first hand. I'm not blaming everything on the "world leaders", I know our own politicians are shit that care only for themselves. Staying in power for as long as they can is their only goal. But as long as the "first world" countries think that the rest of the world is their playground, this issue will not stop. People will always strive for the living standards that the more advanced countries display in their movies and TV shows.
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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2021, 02:21:49 PM »
Well Stads, as Dave and Lonestar mentioned in another thread, a lot of the trouble that these countries have is caused by the US and Europe. Years, centuries of colonialism and plundering resources from these third world countries have driven them to the situation they are in right now.
Non of the economic leaders benefit from lesser countries getting better economies because that would mean that they either become competitors or that they will buy less products from leading countries which will in turn hurt their economies. That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.
You talk about US companies opening factories or offices in other countries. Let me tell you, we have Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, you name it. Almost every big name has either an office or a factory here that provide jobs, but that really means nothing when the overall economy of the country is shit. And that economy is shit, because that is what benefits the greater players. Otherwise, how would you get cheap clothes? How would you get cheap cell phones? Slave labor on other parts of the world guarantees that Europe and the US can sustain the high living standards you guys are accustomed to.
Governments in these poor countries are corrupt as they can be, I know that first hand. I'm not blaming everything on the "world leaders", I know our own politicians are shit that care only for themselves. Staying in power for as long as they can is their only goal. But as long as the "first world" countries think that the rest of the world is their playground, this issue will not stop. People will always strive for the living standards that the more advanced countries display in their movies and TV shows.

Precisely.

This is what was done here so Those in Europe can live their lifestyle and in their Comforts of life. While us original inhabitants of the land, suffer, and dwindle. Until the point where they needed to ship in new laborers to do the work (African Slaves), as the land wasn't depleted yet. It's been and still is this way, ever since then. That is when they discovered, Gold, Silver, and all these other Resources they used to sustain their high living standards. They still do this with Oil and Gas. It hasn't left nor has it been abandoned. I have said These are still here, they are just evolved into the modern present day.

All this so WE can comfortably live this lifestyle we call Normal in Society.

Their Governments also, take advantage and manipulate the natives there that want to only live off the land, while these companies have interests in their governments, to benefit whom? The companies opening the factories. There are plenty of documentaries about what these companies do to these peoples, forcing them off their homes, just so this company can be built and create "JOBS".


All this leads to the current Immigration Crisis we are seeing here in the AMERICAS. You don't see these people fleeing south to South America. They are not because it is just as bad, if not worse, there. America is the only place of salvation where they see the Governments not treating their people as bad as these places. Most of these people were forced by these companies and their governments interest in serving these companies.

But the thing is, they are being fed not the reality of how it is here either. It is still the same, albeit, in a more nicer, cleaned up, white-washed, kind of way.


That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.


This is the mindset of the whole entire world, and is the reality of the "mindset of the world" in which we live and follow. And the reality is that the world is showing us, It Is Destructive.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 02:35:11 PM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2021, 03:02:38 PM »
Well Stads, as Dave and Lonestar mentioned in another thread, a lot of the trouble that these countries have is caused by the US and Europe. Years, centuries of colonialism and plundering resources from these third world countries have driven them to the situation they are in right now.
Non of the economic leaders benefit from lesser countries getting better economies because that would mean that they either become competitors or that they will buy less products from leading countries which will in turn hurt their economies. That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.
You talk about US companies opening factories or offices in other countries. Let me tell you, we have Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, you name it. Almost every big name has either an office or a factory here that provide jobs, but that really means nothing when the overall economy of the country is shit. And that economy is shit, because that is what benefits the greater players. Otherwise, how would you get cheap clothes? How would you get cheap cell phones? Slave labor on other parts of the world guarantees that Europe and the US can sustain the high living standards you guys are accustomed to.
Governments in these poor countries are corrupt as they can be, I know that first hand. I'm not blaming everything on the "world leaders", I know our own politicians are shit that care only for themselves. Staying in power for as long as they can is their only goal. But as long as the "first world" countries think that the rest of the world is their playground, this issue will not stop. People will always strive for the living standards that the more advanced countries display in their movies and TV shows.

I'm a genie, and I popped out of a lamp that you just rubbed (a little too hard, I might add):  You get one wish:  trade your corrupt government for a more benevolent one, or have all of the "big companies" pull out of your country? 

Mexico opted for the latter; their borders opened to American companies for real around the time of NAFTA (though many, like GE, were there before).  From about 1995 to today, Mexico's GDP has almost quadrupled, from about $400 billion to where it is today, about  $1.4 trillion.  Daily wages quadrupled as well, so the money WAS getting to the workers.

There is a similar story in Eastern Europe.   Hungary privatized in 1990, and from then to now, their GDP has gone up almost 100%, particularly from the late '90's to now, when foreign investment increased dramatically.  Wages increased during that time as well.

Contrast with Africa, which has even more poverty now than at the turn of the century, even with aid campaigns and debt-forgiveness programs.  Why?  Corruption.

The days of the "imperialist" model aren't sustainable, and a lot of global corporations know that. They like labor that is cheaper than what can be garnered in their home country, but they need a level of prosperity in those countries in which they do business.  I worked for a global manufacturing concern for over a decade (still do, but it's a different owner now) and the wages were only one variable in the equation.  We needed them to have a level of prosperity to be safe and healthy; replacing unhealthy workers was morally untenable, but on a more practical level, it is VERY expensive.  We wanted those regions to have a higher level of utility and infrastructure.  I couldn't sell a train to someone that had no electricity, no internet and no track.  Even if I could, they wouldn't buy them if the passengers didn't have the wherewithall to ride the trains.  It's a lot more synergistic than the memes and tropes indicate.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2021, 04:03:26 PM »
I don't have a problem with immigration.  My great grandparents came to the U.S. from Yugoslavia.  However, they did it legally.  Building a wall doesn't mean "stay out".  It means "use the door" and acquire citizenship through proper channels and processes.  These days it isn't just about immigration.  It's a matter of national security as well.

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2021, 04:08:55 PM »
I don't have a problem with immigration.  My great grandparents came to the U.S. from Yugoslavia.  However, they did it legally.  Building a wall doesn't mean "stay out".  It means "use the door" and acquire citizenship through proper channels and processes.  These days it isn't just about immigration.  It's a matter of national security as well.

And what is that National Security?

This where I asked before with, Can our System handle the influx of these people at once?
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2021, 07:50:53 PM »
Can our System handle the influx of these people at once?

Nationally, yes. However, immigrants are going to congregate in specific, urban areas that have legislation that is friendly (for lack of a better word) toward immigrants. And those urban areas are not going to be able to "handle" a large influx of people, immigrants or otherwise. My region has seen a major uptick in population due to people moving here from other parts of the country over the past decade and wasn't equipped to handle it. People came here unable to adapt to the higher cost of living, then complained it was too expensive and there wasn't enough housing. They wanted to send their kids to good schools, then were upset the schools were overcrowded. And that was just domestic migration.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2021, 11:03:16 AM »
Can our System handle the influx of these people at once?

Nationally, yes. However, immigrants are going to congregate in specific, urban areas that have legislation that is friendly (for lack of a better word) toward immigrants. And those urban areas are not going to be able to "handle" a large influx of people, immigrants or otherwise. My region has seen a major uptick in population due to people moving here from other parts of the country over the past decade and wasn't equipped to handle it. People came here unable to adapt to the higher cost of living, then complained it was too expensive and there wasn't enough housing. They wanted to send their kids to good schools, then were upset the schools were overcrowded. And that was just domestic migration.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it?  Even many immigrants want something for nothing. For better or worse, the borders of countries mean something.  Governments are autonomous.  It's foolish to come here on the premise of hardship then demand entitlements.  It's also foolish to disregard basic math concepts; we've got a long conversation in another thread on "bat shit crazy" Republicans, but to me, this is just as "bat shit crazy".  It's like me walking in to an Italian restaurant and demanding they give - not sell, give - me a pizza even though they're out of dough.

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2021, 12:49:23 PM »
Can our System handle the influx of these people at once?

Nationally, yes. However, immigrants are going to congregate in specific, urban areas that have legislation that is friendly (for lack of a better word) toward immigrants. And those urban areas are not going to be able to "handle" a large influx of people, immigrants or otherwise. My region has seen a major uptick in population due to people moving here from other parts of the country over the past decade and wasn't equipped to handle it. People came here unable to adapt to the higher cost of living, then complained it was too expensive and there wasn't enough housing. They wanted to send their kids to good schools, then were upset the schools were overcrowded. And that was just domestic migration.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it?  Even many immigrants want something for nothing. For better or worse, the borders of countries mean something.  Governments are autonomous.  It's foolish to come here on the premise of hardship then demand entitlements.  It's also foolish to disregard basic math concepts; we've got a long conversation in another thread on "bat shit crazy" Republicans, but to me, this is just as "bat shit crazy".  It's like me walking in to an Italian restaurant and demanding they give - not sell, give - me a pizza even though they're out of dough.

And a possible solution to this is for us to become more Self-reliant on ourselves more, and less Reliant on The Other (The Government) for basic necessities to survive.

Their problem is not only the Governments being forceful with their rule and hardships, but also they depend on that Government for basic necessities for survival. That Government made it to where these people ended up being forced to depend on that Government. They took away that self-reliance. And the only way they see to get that back is to leave their homeland.

They know they can easily get these "Benefits". They know and take advantage of these "Loopholes".

It's why people say the Dems don't care about them. They use them for their own gain. Like they're using this recent mass shooting to push their gun control agendas. And they used BLM for their gain as well. That's what they do. Republicans don't help either, they just rather let Mexico deal with them, and deny them entry, but they are allowed to legally, they just had to wait in Mexico, again letting Mexico deal with it.

None are addressing the problem of Their Governments  and how they are going there and having peace talks so their own people can go back because The US can't handle the overflux of these people.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2021, 07:28:02 AM »
Well Stads, as Dave and Lonestar mentioned in another thread, a lot of the trouble that these countries have is caused by the US and Europe. Years, centuries of colonialism and plundering resources from these third world countries have driven them to the situation they are in right now.
Non of the economic leaders benefit from lesser countries getting better economies because that would mean that they either become competitors or that they will buy less products from leading countries which will in turn hurt their economies. That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.
You talk about US companies opening factories or offices in other countries. Let me tell you, we have Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, you name it. Almost every big name has either an office or a factory here that provide jobs, but that really means nothing when the overall economy of the country is shit. And that economy is shit, because that is what benefits the greater players. Otherwise, how would you get cheap clothes? How would you get cheap cell phones? Slave labor on other parts of the world guarantees that Europe and the US can sustain the high living standards you guys are accustomed to.
Governments in these poor countries are corrupt as they can be, I know that first hand. I'm not blaming everything on the "world leaders", I know our own politicians are shit that care only for themselves. Staying in power for as long as they can is their only goal. But as long as the "first world" countries think that the rest of the world is their playground, this issue will not stop. People will always strive for the living standards that the more advanced countries display in their movies and TV shows.

I'm a genie, and I popped out of a lamp that you just rubbed (a little too hard, I might add):  You get one wish:  trade your corrupt government for a more benevolent one, or have all of the "big companies" pull out of your country? 

Mexico opted for the latter; their borders opened to American companies for real around the time of NAFTA (though many, like GE, were there before).  From about 1995 to today, Mexico's GDP has almost quadrupled, from about $400 billion to where it is today, about  $1.4 trillion.  Daily wages quadrupled as well, so the money WAS getting to the workers.

There is a similar story in Eastern Europe.   Hungary privatized in 1990, and from then to now, their GDP has gone up almost 100%, particularly from the late '90's to now, when foreign investment increased dramatically.  Wages increased during that time as well.

Contrast with Africa, which has even more poverty now than at the turn of the century, even with aid campaigns and debt-forgiveness programs.  Why?  Corruption.

The days of the "imperialist" model aren't sustainable, and a lot of global corporations know that. They like labor that is cheaper than what can be garnered in their home country, but they need a level of prosperity in those countries in which they do business.  I worked for a global manufacturing concern for over a decade (still do, but it's a different owner now) and the wages were only one variable in the equation.  We needed them to have a level of prosperity to be safe and healthy; replacing unhealthy workers was morally untenable, but on a more practical level, it is VERY expensive.  We wanted those regions to have a higher level of utility and infrastructure.  I couldn't sell a train to someone that had no electricity, no internet and no track.  Even if I could, they wouldn't buy them if the passengers didn't have the wherewithall to ride the trains.  It's a lot more synergistic than the memes and tropes indicate.

I had never see those websites, thanks for sharing them. Looking at them, I'd say it is interesting that you put Mexico as an example. Based on those numbers, it would seem that they have been on the rise for the past 20 or so years. Yet, immigration to the US has not stopped. It you look at the ratings presented here you'll notice that the quality of life in the country is not high. GDP and Salaries are by no means a good measure on the quality of life in a country. Moreover, almost 50% of the Mexican population lives in poverty
Speaking of Hungary, while the website you quoted shows that wages have been on the rise for the past 25 years, this website shows that their income is still pretty bad in relation to other countries.
Central and South America have seen a ton of civil unrest over the past century that has had nothing to do with each country's economy, but with dictatorships and genocides that have been fueled and supported mostly by the US and some European players as well. Both Russia and the US have used Cuba and Venezuela for cold wars without caring what that means to the people on the region.
Every time a new government rises that seems to be doing good for the people, but leans a little too left for comfort of the great northern power, something happens. Look at Bolivia, where Evo Morales was brought down by a military coup, or Lula in Brazil, who was imprisoned in a corruption scandal that turned out to be bullshit. Every time something like this happens, the government that comes into power bends to the will of the US and the countries resources end up in the hands of international players. For what I've been reading, this is similar to what happens in Central America.
Again, I am not saying that the local government's corruption isn't making things worse, I know first hand that they are. But when you have constant civil unrest it is hard for a country to move forward and grow.
When Ginobili gets hot, I get hot in my pants. 

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2021, 09:52:32 AM »
Well Stads, as Dave and Lonestar mentioned in another thread, a lot of the trouble that these countries have is caused by the US and Europe. Years, centuries of colonialism and plundering resources from these third world countries have driven them to the situation they are in right now.
Non of the economic leaders benefit from lesser countries getting better economies because that would mean that they either become competitors or that they will buy less products from leading countries which will in turn hurt their economies. That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.
You talk about US companies opening factories or offices in other countries. Let me tell you, we have Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, you name it. Almost every big name has either an office or a factory here that provide jobs, but that really means nothing when the overall economy of the country is shit. And that economy is shit, because that is what benefits the greater players. Otherwise, how would you get cheap clothes? How would you get cheap cell phones? Slave labor on other parts of the world guarantees that Europe and the US can sustain the high living standards you guys are accustomed to.
Governments in these poor countries are corrupt as they can be, I know that first hand. I'm not blaming everything on the "world leaders", I know our own politicians are shit that care only for themselves. Staying in power for as long as they can is their only goal. But as long as the "first world" countries think that the rest of the world is their playground, this issue will not stop. People will always strive for the living standards that the more advanced countries display in their movies and TV shows.

I'm a genie, and I popped out of a lamp that you just rubbed (a little too hard, I might add):  You get one wish:  trade your corrupt government for a more benevolent one, or have all of the "big companies" pull out of your country? 

Mexico opted for the latter; their borders opened to American companies for real around the time of NAFTA (though many, like GE, were there before).  From about 1995 to today, Mexico's GDP has almost quadrupled, from about $400 billion to where it is today, about  $1.4 trillion.  Daily wages quadrupled as well, so the money WAS getting to the workers.

There is a similar story in Eastern Europe.   Hungary privatized in 1990, and from then to now, their GDP has gone up almost 100%, particularly from the late '90's to now, when foreign investment increased dramatically.  Wages increased during that time as well.

Contrast with Africa, which has even more poverty now than at the turn of the century, even with aid campaigns and debt-forgiveness programs.  Why?  Corruption.

The days of the "imperialist" model aren't sustainable, and a lot of global corporations know that. They like labor that is cheaper than what can be garnered in their home country, but they need a level of prosperity in those countries in which they do business.  I worked for a global manufacturing concern for over a decade (still do, but it's a different owner now) and the wages were only one variable in the equation.  We needed them to have a level of prosperity to be safe and healthy; replacing unhealthy workers was morally untenable, but on a more practical level, it is VERY expensive.  We wanted those regions to have a higher level of utility and infrastructure.  I couldn't sell a train to someone that had no electricity, no internet and no track.  Even if I could, they wouldn't buy them if the passengers didn't have the wherewithall to ride the trains.  It's a lot more synergistic than the memes and tropes indicate.

I had never see those websites, thanks for sharing them. Looking at them, I'd say it is interesting that you put Mexico as an example. Based on those numbers, it would seem that they have been on the rise for the past 20 or so years. Yet, immigration to the US has not stopped. It you look at the ratings presented here you'll notice that the quality of life in the country is not high. GDP and Salaries are by no means a good measure on the quality of life in a country. Moreover, almost 50% of the Mexican population lives in poverty
Speaking of Hungary, while the website you quoted shows that wages have been on the rise for the past 25 years, this website shows that their income is still pretty bad in relation to other countries.
Central and South America have seen a ton of civil unrest over the past century that has had nothing to do with each country's economy, but with dictatorships and genocides that have been fueled and supported mostly by the US and some European players as well. Both Russia and the US have used Cuba and Venezuela for cold wars without caring what that means to the people on the region.
Every time a new government rises that seems to be doing good for the people, but leans a little too left for comfort of the great northern power, something happens. Look at Bolivia, where Evo Morales was brought down by a military coup, or Lula in Brazil, who was imprisoned in a corruption scandal that turned out to be bullshit. Every time something like this happens, the government that comes into power bends to the will of the US and the countries resources end up in the hands of international players. For what I've been reading, this is similar to what happens in Central America.
Again, I am not saying that the local government's corruption isn't making things worse, I know first hand that they are. But when you have constant civil unrest it is hard for a country to move forward and grow.

Precisely.

We Natives here in America have a civil unrest with the government too. Just not as bad as our brothers and sisters down south.

With us here in the US, we are able to protest and voice our dissent, for how they are treating us and our Lifestyle, and our sacred places. Those down South do not have this option.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2021, 10:28:06 AM »
Well Stads, as Dave and Lonestar mentioned in another thread, a lot of the trouble that these countries have is caused by the US and Europe. Years, centuries of colonialism and plundering resources from these third world countries have driven them to the situation they are in right now.
Non of the economic leaders benefit from lesser countries getting better economies because that would mean that they either become competitors or that they will buy less products from leading countries which will in turn hurt their economies. That is just how the US and other advanced nations see the world.
You talk about US companies opening factories or offices in other countries. Let me tell you, we have Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Johnson & Johnson, Kimberly Clark, Coca Cola, you name it. Almost every big name has either an office or a factory here that provide jobs, but that really means nothing when the overall economy of the country is shit. And that economy is shit, because that is what benefits the greater players. Otherwise, how would you get cheap clothes? How would you get cheap cell phones? Slave labor on other parts of the world guarantees that Europe and the US can sustain the high living standards you guys are accustomed to.
Governments in these poor countries are corrupt as they can be, I know that first hand. I'm not blaming everything on the "world leaders", I know our own politicians are shit that care only for themselves. Staying in power for as long as they can is their only goal. But as long as the "first world" countries think that the rest of the world is their playground, this issue will not stop. People will always strive for the living standards that the more advanced countries display in their movies and TV shows.

I'm a genie, and I popped out of a lamp that you just rubbed (a little too hard, I might add):  You get one wish:  trade your corrupt government for a more benevolent one, or have all of the "big companies" pull out of your country? 

Mexico opted for the latter; their borders opened to American companies for real around the time of NAFTA (though many, like GE, were there before).  From about 1995 to today, Mexico's GDP has almost quadrupled, from about $400 billion to where it is today, about  $1.4 trillion.  Daily wages quadrupled as well, so the money WAS getting to the workers.

There is a similar story in Eastern Europe.   Hungary privatized in 1990, and from then to now, their GDP has gone up almost 100%, particularly from the late '90's to now, when foreign investment increased dramatically.  Wages increased during that time as well.

Contrast with Africa, which has even more poverty now than at the turn of the century, even with aid campaigns and debt-forgiveness programs.  Why?  Corruption.

The days of the "imperialist" model aren't sustainable, and a lot of global corporations know that. They like labor that is cheaper than what can be garnered in their home country, but they need a level of prosperity in those countries in which they do business.  I worked for a global manufacturing concern for over a decade (still do, but it's a different owner now) and the wages were only one variable in the equation.  We needed them to have a level of prosperity to be safe and healthy; replacing unhealthy workers was morally untenable, but on a more practical level, it is VERY expensive.  We wanted those regions to have a higher level of utility and infrastructure.  I couldn't sell a train to someone that had no electricity, no internet and no track.  Even if I could, they wouldn't buy them if the passengers didn't have the wherewithall to ride the trains.  It's a lot more synergistic than the memes and tropes indicate.

I had never see those websites, thanks for sharing them. Looking at them, I'd say it is interesting that you put Mexico as an example. Based on those numbers, it would seem that they have been on the rise for the past 20 or so years. Yet, immigration to the US has not stopped. It you look at the ratings presented here you'll notice that the quality of life in the country is not high. GDP and Salaries are by no means a good measure on the quality of life in a country. Moreover, almost 50% of the Mexican population lives in poverty
Speaking of Hungary, while the website you quoted shows that wages have been on the rise for the past 25 years, this website shows that their income is still pretty bad in relation to other countries.
Central and South America have seen a ton of civil unrest over the past century that has had nothing to do with each country's economy, but with dictatorships and genocides that have been fueled and supported mostly by the US and some European players as well. Both Russia and the US have used Cuba and Venezuela for cold wars without caring what that means to the people on the region.
Every time a new government rises that seems to be doing good for the people, but leans a little too left for comfort of the great northern power, something happens. Look at Bolivia, where Evo Morales was brought down by a military coup, or Lula in Brazil, who was imprisoned in a corruption scandal that turned out to be bullshit. Every time something like this happens, the government that comes into power bends to the will of the US and the countries resources end up in the hands of international players. For what I've been reading, this is similar to what happens in Central America.
Again, I am not saying that the local government's corruption isn't making things worse, I know first hand that they are. But when you have constant civil unrest it is hard for a country to move forward and grow.

All fair points.  The only thing I can comment on is that for some of that, it's a work in progress; it doesn't happen over night.

It will be interesting how all this plays out when the Chinese take over control of the world (that's not at all a sarcastic or snarky comment; I've written about this elsewhere: I think we're as little as 50 years from China being the preeminent world economic power). 

Offline Nekov

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Re: The Immigration Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2021, 03:18:14 PM »
Yeah, China taking control of the world is not really what I'm looking forward to, especially since my government is pretty much in bed with them.
When Ginobili gets hot, I get hot in my pants.