Poll

Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?

Yes
60 (95.2%)
No
3 (4.8%)

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Offline H2

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2020, 05:55:09 PM »
I've got it in my head recently that I want a big family, like 7 kids. Anyone from that situation and know how to make it work?

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2020, 06:10:27 PM »
Most arguments not to have kids and most arguments to have kids are incredibly flawed and can be toppled incredibly easily. It's just a post hoc rationalization of how you actually feel, and people are uncomfortable with the fact that their most important decisions sometimes aren't that rational, or that they are sometimes environmental and that they could have easily been another way.

There's a minority of people who would never find a way to be happy again if you made them have kids, and a minority of people who would never find a way to be happy again if you made them not have kids. The rest of us could probably swing either way, maybe a little more or less happy on one end than the other, and that's what all the fuss and the discussion is about, because you literally don't know and want to reinforce your decision for yourself.

I can definitely see some of the more basic pros and cons. It's nice to have permanent family members that are very closely connected to you and are way younger than you, someone who literally sees you into the afterlife. It's not to be underestimated because at one point, for some people earlier than others, you start feeling like the world is shrinking and you know less people and all of those unpleasant things about growing older start weighing on you. On the other hand, the daily work of raising kids seems like absolute drudgery, and avoiding drudgery if you can't see the benefit of it is wise. Maybe years of doing wax on, wax off 12hrs a day on top of everything else I do would make me a much better person, but I don't really know that and it's hard to make a connection between point A and point B, so I wouldn't be excited about doing it personally.

So to answer the weird WR question, yes, it's okay for some people not to want to have kids, because even at these replacement rates, enough people want to have kids that there will still be a substantial amount of people left to further humanity until the planet explodes anyway. Everything else is just personal choice, or personal accident, or personal "it seemed a good idea at the time", or personal life plan.

I've got it in my head recently that I want a big family, like 7 kids. Anyone from that situation and know how to make it work?
Not to be rude, I'm just extremely curious where do you get all these big and specific ideas in your head? At first it's considering Catholic, not a lot of people convert into religions they weren't born in , especially "Catholic" specifically as opposed to generally just Christianity or Judaism or whatever. Now it's having seven kids as an abstract thought, as opposed to "I specifically know and have talked to someone who makes it work and I got the impression it would be great for me, plus I already have someone I want seven kids with".

Again, I apologize if it's too personal, but people don't just say "I wanna go to med school to become an ear doctor and live in this one specific village in New Zealand that I have never visited". Has to have an interesting story behind it at the least.

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Offline Skeever

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2020, 06:17:08 PM »
I've got it in my head recently that I want a big family, like 7 kids. Anyone from that situation and know how to make it work?

A high salary and wife that comes with a live-in parent as well as no other personal or career ambitions of her own outside raising a family.

not saying this in a judgmental way, if you find somebody else who shares that value with you, great. Good luck though, even among Catholics.

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2020, 06:24:55 PM »
Skeever is dead on.  You need the money and help to do this.
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Offline H2

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2020, 07:42:40 PM »
I've got it in my head recently that I want a big family, like 7 kids. Anyone from that situation and know how to make it work?
Not to be rude, I'm just extremely curious where do you get all these big and specific ideas in your head? At first it's considering Catholic, not a lot of people convert into religions they weren't born in , especially "Catholic" specifically as opposed to generally just Christianity or Judaism or whatever. Now it's having seven kids as an abstract thought, as opposed to "I specifically know and have talked to someone who makes it work and I got the impression it would be great for me, plus I already have someone I want seven kids with".

Again, I apologize if it's too personal, but people don't just say "I wanna go to med school to become an ear doctor and live in this one specific village in New Zealand that I have never visited". Has to have an interesting story behind it at the least.
No, it's no problem. I promise that I don't randomly come to these decisions! Re: Catholicism, I wasn't raised with any religion. However, I'd say about 11 years ago, at age 17, I converted to generic Christianity. For about a year I didn't know anything and just had very generic and uninformed Christian beliefs, and I was very curious about learning more. Then I got pulled into a Christian yet cultish KJV-onlyist, young earth creationist, theologically heterodox church--of course I thought it was "normal" at the time. I studied the ins and outs of their niche worldview for about 2 years. I actually ardently defended these views on DTF under a different name (this was circa 2011). However, I had many suspicions that my view wasn't correct; after many conversations with a certain gracious member of DTF, I left that church and simply decided to hold fast to the core beliefs of the Christian faith while remaining open-minded about the rest. I attended a Pentacostal church for 2 years, tried to wrap my head around their emphasis on alleged "spiritual gifts" like prophesying and speaking in tongues, but ultimately I couldn't accept it. Then I moved for school, and I attended a "liturgical baptist"-style non-denominational church, which was theologically lightweight and quite intellectual, as it was a small home church of many biblical scholars, theologians, and philosophers. I was with them for 3 years. Then I moved again for school; this time I found myself at a Presbyterian church, and while there are many aspects of their theology I did not agree with (such as predestination), I was comfortable enough to stay. I've been with them for about 5 years. Now, through conversation with many good Catholic friends, some of whom were once Protestant, I have been finding myself increasingly convinced by their arguments, and I don't think that my best objections to Catholicism are as good as I once thought they were. Thus, I do think I am on my way to becoming Catholic.

Maybe that was more than what you wanted, but it seems like the next step for me.

Re: kids, well, to be honest there is something of a passionate conflict in me. Part of me wants to keep all my money to myself, never marry, never have kids, and be a rockstar. Live by my own rules; be accountable to no one. But part of me does want to take on that responsibility because I think it will bring the best out of me. As for the "seven" part, it is kind of an arbitrary number, but I've always loved big families and thought that if I were to have kids, I wouldn't want to limit myself. I'd wanna just keep going.

A high salary and wife that comes with a live-in parent as well as no other personal or career ambitions of her own outside raising a family.

not saying this in a judgmental way, if you find somebody else who shares that value with you, great. Good luck though, even among Catholics.

Skeever is dead on.  You need the money and help to do this.

Yes, part of this journey has involved a change of career plans. Initially I planned to be an academic. Now I've been pouring myself into computer science. To make a long story short, I am in a humanities PhD program getting free tuition (as is the norm), but they are letting me add on a masters in software engineering. The main motivation to pursue software engineering is so that I can support a family on my dime and my potential wife need not work if she doesn't want to. A lot of Catholic women I do know around here would prefer to stay at home, at least while the children are young. And of course, if she would want to have a career too, that would be great and I would be supportive; daycare would be the thing to do then.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 08:01:11 PM by H2 »

Offline wolfking

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2020, 07:59:41 PM »
The whole "the world is so screwed up, it would be wrong to bring life" argument doesn't hold up. First, most people who say things like that would rather be alive than dead, and betray that thinking with their own actions. Second, if you really felt that way, it doesn't take much but looking at yourself, your peers, and the generations before you to see that nobody currently on this Earth is on their way to saving it. The future generations are the only hope there is.

I'm not saying that people need to have kids, and In fairness people who don't want kids have had to put up with a lot of bull crap moral arguments urging them to have them, but the inverse of that position (making going childless the moral necessity) is just as flawed

Isn't that our right however to use that as a valid argument for ourselves?  It's all about the individual and their views on life and the world IMO.

Sure, but it's also my right to hear opinions like that and think that people don't understand or really believe what they are saying, even if they think they do, no matter how smart they are.

I'm not sure if this is a personal attack or whatever but how can you think that I wouldn't understand or believe my own viewpoint without knowing a thing about me?
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2020, 08:02:12 PM »
The whole "the world is so screwed up, it would be wrong to bring life" argument doesn't hold up. First, most people who say things like that would rather be alive than dead, and betray that thinking with their own actions. Second, if you really felt that way, it doesn't take much but looking at yourself, your peers, and the generations before you to see that nobody currently on this Earth is on their way to saving it. The future generations are the only hope there is.

I'm not saying that people need to have kids, and In fairness people who don't want kids have had to put up with a lot of bull crap moral arguments urging them to have them, but the inverse of that position (making going childless the moral necessity) is just as flawed

This is fine, if, I suppose, those were my beliefs, but this post makes a lot of assumptions about others. And nobody once said that going childless was a moral necessity or the way others need to think. 100% a personal, individual decision, that's all.

Exactly, unfair assumptions I might add. 
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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2020, 08:03:33 PM »
All the best to you H2!
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Offline TAC

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2020, 08:07:47 PM »
I've seen some fucked up parenting in the store throughout the years.

I'd rather drop these kids in Kade's or Michael's laps because I know they'd do a better job. They're good people.


Having kids or not having kids, well its just a different thing. I know I could've gone without them. Now I couldn't.


I'll tell you, if I knew how much I was going to worry, I might've taken a pass.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2020, 08:17:15 PM »
I've seen some fucked up parenting in the store throughout the years.

I'd rather drop these kids in Kade's or Michael's laps because I know they'd do a better job. They're good people.


Having kids or not having kids, well its just a different thing. I know I could've gone without them. Now I couldn't.


I'll tell you, if I knew how much I was going to worry, I might've taken a pass.

Thanks mate.  I have no doubt I'd be a great father, I just have no desire too.

I've seen some sights coming through my joints too with parenting.  Parents don't even watch their kids around water, it's diabolical.  I see so many people daily that shouldn't have had children.  My profession the last 15 years has kind of cermented my viewpoint in all honesty.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2020, 04:35:25 AM »
Maybe that was more than what you wanted, but it seems like the next step for me.
It wasn't, it was very interesting, thank you!

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2020, 06:12:08 AM »
My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

Well, I just want to clarify I don't believe each successive generation is making the world worse than the next or anything like that, I just think our world is a fucking nightmare. Also, I can barely take care of myself, that's kind of important too  :lol :lol

I struggle finding motivation in doing the basics.  Making and going to appointments, paying bills, buying new shit for the house.  :lol  it drains me and can't see how I would ever have the want or energy to look after and raise another human being.

Kade, you and I would get along quite well sitting at the bar bitching about kids and other things!  :lol :lol

Can I join in even if I have them?   :) :) :)

Offline TAC

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2020, 06:16:49 AM »
They don’t need a chaperone, old man.  ;D
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2020, 06:17:49 AM »
No, it's no problem. I promise that I don't randomly come to these decisions! Re: Catholicism, I wasn't raised with any religion. However, I'd say about 11 years ago, at age 17, I converted to generic Christianity. For about a year I didn't know anything and just had very generic and uninformed Christian beliefs, and I was very curious about learning more. Then I got pulled into a Christian yet cultish KJV-onlyist, young earth creationist, theologically heterodox church--of course I thought it was "normal" at the time. I studied the ins and outs of their niche worldview for about 2 years. I actually ardently defended these views on DTF under a different name (this was circa 2011). However, I had many suspicions that my view wasn't correct; after many conversations with a certain gracious member of DTF, I left that church and simply decided to hold fast to the core beliefs of the Christian faith while remaining open-minded about the rest. I attended a Pentacostal church for 2 years, tried to wrap my head around their emphasis on alleged "spiritual gifts" like prophesying and speaking in tongues, but ultimately I couldn't accept it. Then I moved for school, and I attended a "liturgical baptist"-style non-denominational church, which was theologically lightweight and quite intellectual, as it was a small home church of many biblical scholars, theologians, and philosophers. I was with them for 3 years. Then I moved again for school; this time I found myself at a Presbyterian church, and while there are many aspects of their theology I did not agree with (such as predestination), I was comfortable enough to stay. I've been with them for about 5 years. Now, through conversation with many good Catholic friends, some of whom were once Protestant, I have been finding myself increasingly convinced by their arguments, and I don't think that my best objections to Catholicism are as good as I once thought they were. Thus, I do think I am on my way to becoming Catholic.

Maybe that was more than what you wanted, but it seems like the next step for me.

Pretty much the inverse of me, then. I was raised Catholic and there are things about it that I've not always felt good about. But I've tried looking around elsewhere, and I could never find anything that didn't 1.) have even more things that I object to and 2.) still felt connected enough to the traditions of the RCC.

Quote
A lot of Catholic women I do know around here would prefer to stay at home, at least while the children are young. And of course, if she would want to have a career too, that would be great and I would be supportive; daycare would be the thing to do then.
Daycare's about a grand per kid per month where I'm at, for what that's worth.

I'm not sure if this is a personal attack or whatever but how can you think that I wouldn't understand or believe my own viewpoint without knowing a thing about me?

I don't really want to get into it. You can think the world is too cruel and heartless to bring new life into all you want, but I'm sure you find all sorts of reasons to go on living, and hopefully aren't interested in dying anytime soon yourself. But in case you are and it's not just some edgy rationale, I hope you do seek out some help. People who are battling severe depression should definitely consider trying to get that under control before having kids.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2020, 06:24:26 AM »
I am considering becoming Catholic, and the teaching is that married couples should be "open to life"--meaning no birth control. However, a single person is not obligated to marry, so there is no obligation on single people to plan for a life with children. If a Catholic decides they don't want children. then I think they can remain single.

Having been a Catholic of varying degrees of participation since I was in single digits, some of these doctrines are less literal in practice than they sound when written out that way.  Technically speaking the 1968 (or thereabouts) encyclical that banned all "artificial" contraception is still in force, but I have found that in practice the stance is more reasonable.   This article has support (in terms of moral judgment) for contraception as high as 90% of U.S. Catholics.   I know for me, personally, I went through a period of questioning, during and immediately after college, where much of my views on religion and doctrine sort of crystallized.  I had the luxury of two priests - one in my home town (you've heard of him; he's actually the priest that did the public eulogy for the children in Sandy Hook, Father Bob Weiss) and one at the parish at Uconn - that were willing to sit with me and talk over these matters of spirituality, and both were clear:  it's a matter of conscience.   We all have moral dilemmas we have to resolve, where there are conflicting moral obligations.  This is just one of those. 

I don't practice in the sense of attending church, but I do identify as a Catholic if need be, and I have no issue whatsoever with contraception; it's a matter of preference between me and my partner.  I feel confident that I am not flauting the local directives of the Church (though to be clear, I'm not sure I would change my behavior even if it did). 

Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2020, 06:36:13 AM »
I've seen some fucked up parenting in the store throughout the years.

I'd rather drop these kids in Kade's or Michael's laps because I know they'd do a better job. They're good people.


Having kids or not having kids, well its just a different thing. I know I could've gone without them. Now I couldn't.


I'll tell you, if I knew how much I was going to worry, I might've taken a pass.

Thanks mate.  I have no doubt I'd be a great father, I just have no desire too.

I've seen some sights coming through my joints too with parenting.  Parents don't even watch their kids around water, it's diabolical.  I see so many people daily that shouldn't have had children.  My profession the last 15 years has kind of cermented my viewpoint in all honesty.
Sorry I just got reminded of John Wayne teaching a kid how to swim.  :lol It dosen't resonate that well in todays society. I'm not a parent but I imagine the John Wayne way is a pretty efficient and easy way though.  :rollin
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2020, 06:39:09 AM »
Absolutely.

Why should not wanting kids be frowned upon ?

Some people are TERRIBLE parents.

I really dislike babies and toddlers. I can only bear being around kids once they're like 12 upwards.



Why do people act like you're a horrible monster if yo don't want kids ( and hate dogs but that's a different thread )... ?

Some people just. don't. Like. Or. Want. Them. Or . Could. Cope. With . The . Responsibilty.

Cheers.

I really find it sad, how The Leaders of the world, made it where it's harder to raise a kid. They made it where our Parental responsibilities are sacrificed. It's gotten where those who have kids, have to take a second job and drop their kids off at a daycare, in order to have enough just to eat, and have shelter over their heads, in turn losing valuable time spent with their kids. The Parents could be using that time spent, teaching their kids things they want them to learn. But it's harder when you can't spend as much time with them, while you work day and night.

And for those who think the world is a nightmare to bring kids into the world. I hate to break it to you, but since when has the world not been nightmarish.

Also, it's Nature to have kids. All things have offspring, EVERYTHING...Why else did the creator make reproduction feel so good.

This is not on our leaders.   This is on us as people, as citizens, as parents.  Assuming I am a successful parent (not possible to say) if there was one thing that made that so it was "patience and presence".   For every example of someone like you mention - that doesn't have a choice - there are two that DO and yet take the same path.   You're focusing on the work aspect, but it goes beyond that.   You can't expect to be a good parent by sticking your nose in a phone and/or binge-watching True Blood on Netflix every weekend.  As much as I didn't like it, we were a two-parent family, through thick and thin. In hindsight, we could have divorced sooner; four is better than two, but in both cases, we were both involved parents.  And we had a village.  I get it if you don't, then you're right, it can be very difficult; there are plenty, though, for whom it's not about that, it's about broader choices.   I'm of the opinion that you've got to get down on your knees and play Polly Pockets with your kid.  Sit there and read that copy of "Horton Hears A Who" for the n-teenth time.    There's no phoning it in. 

If you look at my "concert history", from 1982 (my first show) to about 1997, each year there are progressively more shows.   Then there's a dearth from about 2000 through about 2008, when I moved to Philly.   It picked up a bit, but didn't really "rebound" until about 2010, 2012.   That's just one example.   I chose not to be that guy that phones it in; I took jobs that fascilitated being a dad; it's a large part of the reason I have worked out of the house for so many years.  I don't suggest or expect that everyone do what I did - I got very lucky - but regardless of what path you take, compromises and sacrifices have to be made.   I don't see our society today being that big on sacrificing the short term dopamine hit in favor of the long-term slow burn.   

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2020, 08:09:50 AM »
All I have to add to this conversation is that life has a tendency to work out way better if you have kids on purpose with someone you want to spend your life with. That's not to say it can't work out if it's an oops with a one night stand, but  in general we'd be a lot better off if people would be more careful about their reproduction. If you insist on casual sex, double up on contraceptives.

Kids are amazing and a huge benefit to my life, but only because I had them with my wife, who I am fully committed to. Plus we co-parent really well to avoid either of us getting too burned out, though of course that happens sometimes.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2020, 09:29:00 AM »
All I have to add to this conversation is that life has a tendency to work out way better if you have kids on purpose with someone you want to spend your life with. That's not to say it can't work out if it's an oops with a one night stand, but  in general we'd be a lot better off if people would be more careful about their reproduction. If you insist on casual sex, double up on contraceptives.

Kids are amazing and a huge benefit to my life, but only because I had them with my wife, who I am fully committed to. Plus we co-parent really well to avoid either of us getting too burned out, though of course that happens sometimes.

Agree.  My thing is, I've never been married.  Never met that special someone who I would consider to be an adequate co-parent and soulmate.  Those are important factors.  So, I just figured having kids wasn't meant to be for me.  Plus, having a family just wasn't an aspiration of mine.  Always wanted to do my own thing.  I look at it this way.  My two younger brothers have a total of 9 kids.  They had enough for all 3 of us.  After all, the world is over populated enough as it is.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2020, 10:26:50 AM »
With regards to the government supporting children, I think they have an incentive to do that, but as a single dude, of course I don't like it, but I can see some reason for it.  Look at Japan, that country isn't giving enough births to the point it may not exist in the future.

That's because they value and prioritize their economy and understand, kids just get in the way of the laborer. Let's face it, labor is just a nicer form of Slavery, except you get a coin in return. That you can use to buy food, you could've grown yourself, but forgot how to do it yourself. So we become reliant on that coin, they give to us, because they control the value of that coin.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2020, 10:36:49 AM »
With regards to the government supporting children, I think they have an incentive to do that, but as a single dude, of course I don't like it, but I can see some reason for it.  Look at Japan, that country isn't giving enough births to the point it may not exist in the future.

That's because they value and prioritize their economy and understand, kids just get in the way of the laborer. Let's face it, labor is just a nicer form of Slavery, except you get a coin in return. That you can use to buy food, you could've grown yourself, but forgot how to do it yourself. So we become reliant on that coin, they give to us, because they control the value of that coin.

It's actually because there aren't enough good jobs so they don't want to have kids because they can't support them. Which is a commendable thing in many ways, like we discuss here.  If you cant support a child, you shouldn't have one.  But it's a big issue for them.  It's definitely tied to economics though like you said.

Quote
In Japan, the reluctance to marry or have children has most likely arisen, at least in part, from shrinking employment opportunities for young men.

https://www.eastwestcenter.org/publications/low-fertility-in-japan%E2%80%94no-end-in-sight

Offline Stadler

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2020, 10:43:12 AM »
With regards to the government supporting children, I think they have an incentive to do that, but as a single dude, of course I don't like it, but I can see some reason for it.  Look at Japan, that country isn't giving enough births to the point it may not exist in the future.

That's because they value and prioritize their economy and understand, kids just get in the way of the laborer. Let's face it, labor is just a nicer form of Slavery, except you get a coin in return. That you can use to buy food, you could've grown yourself, but forgot how to do it yourself. So we become reliant on that coin, they give to us, because they control the value of that coin.

That's a questionable statement.  That's like saying "Water is just a nicer form of sand, except it doesn't abrade your skin".  There are fundamental differences (revolving around "free will") between the two.  Don't mistake the fact that you don't get to wish your own salary for not being an autonomous act. 

As for the second half, you're totally ignoring the utility of shared services.  I shouldn't be growing and cultivating my own food; it's not efficient.  Nor should farmers study and absorb all the fineries of law.  It's more efficient for society if the farmer cultivates food for me, and I provide legal services to them.  We address time and geographical differences by using a transactional device, money.   

This applies globally too; U.S. workers shouldn't be making sneakers or televisions; we do other things - medical, education, high tech development - more efficiently, and should be trading that output for those things we can't do as efficiently.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 10:48:23 AM by Stadler »

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2020, 10:43:41 AM »
Is it okay? Frankly it should be encouraged. I consider myself pretty eco minded, and while I take recycling home from work to make sure it is recycled properly, buy my power from a company that deals in 100% wind energy, and then power an electric car with some of that energy none of that has nearly the same environmental impact as our decision not to have children.

I'm not saying this to come out against those who have kids or want them, but as a society in our laws (via benefits for having kids throughout multiple areas) and just in general we need to stop glorifying and rewarding having children. We're centuries past the point where the primal reasons for that desire needs to be reflected in everything for our survival.

In Australia, the government give 'baby bonuses'.  When it came out I seriously think the dumbfuck side of society were having a kid to get free money.  The benefits they give out over here is crazy and the more kids you have, the more benefits you get.  It's fucking atrocious.

 :omg:

Talk about convincing your people to procreate, unknowingly. That's some mind fuckery right there.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2020, 10:44:28 AM »
There is so much more to 'labor' than mindlessly whittling away at a task and receiving a paycheck. There is so much more that you get from a job, even a minimum wage one, than a slave does. There are some sectors where you could maybe make the argument that it's compassionless and brutal on the workers but it's still not slavery.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2020, 10:50:15 AM »
" How can you not have kids ? It's NATURE..."

It reminds me of Some Kind Of Monster - where Newsted says - " Music is my children - I choose not to have any kids "

And Hetfield ( on the DVD commentary ) says something like " You choose not to do LIFE ? "

Like - as if it's a MANDATORY REQUIREMENT OF EXISTENCE.

No it isn't. No more than fuckin' Bungee Jumping.

It's a choice. I shit you not - sometimes I remember that getting married and having kids is not mandatory and I breathe a sigh of relief.

Imagine if getting married and having babies was LEGAL AND MANDATORY ? Nightmare.


( But Kotowboy - you're an ugly worthless sack of shit - nobody would want you anyway ! )



I didn't word that question good, at all.

I do agree with you having babies be LEGALLY MANDATORY. China, in a way, is doing just that with their Child Laws. 
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Online MirrorMask

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2020, 10:52:54 AM »
Is it okay? Frankly it should be encouraged. I consider myself pretty eco minded, and while I take recycling home from work to make sure it is recycled properly, buy my power from a company that deals in 100% wind energy, and then power an electric car with some of that energy none of that has nearly the same environmental impact as our decision not to have children.

I'm not saying this to come out against those who have kids or want them, but as a society in our laws (via benefits for having kids throughout multiple areas) and just in general we need to stop glorifying and rewarding having children. We're centuries past the point where the primal reasons for that desire needs to be reflected in everything for our survival.

In Australia, the government give 'baby bonuses'.  When it came out I seriously think the dumbfuck side of society were having a kid to get free money.  The benefits they give out over here is crazy and the more kids you have, the more benefits you get.  It's fucking atrocious.

 :omg:

Talk about convincing your people to procreate, unknowingly. That's some mind fuckery right there.

The rationale behind this is, I assume:
Citizen: "Gosh, it is so expensive to raise a kid"
Government: "Well, let me help you, you want kids? I support you! I don't want the next generation to be 10% of what is now, in term of population, just because you feel that a kid costs too much money"

If dumb people procreate just to get easy money, that's the other side of the coin.... you cannot stop to support parents who want to raise a kid without falling into poverty because Cletus Spuckler churns out kids after kids just to get some money.
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Offline H2

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2020, 10:58:03 AM »
Daycare's about a grand per kid per month where I'm at, for what that's worth.
Yeah I've gathered that daycare is expensive, one of the several reasons why I personally think a stay-at-home parent is preferable. I mean, if we're just concerned about making cost-effective decisions, the spouse who would stay at home should make at least enough money to offset the daycare. That's feasible--let's say there are four kids and the spouse that would have stayed home makes $50000--but doesn't leave a lot left over. Of course this will lead to stress as both spouses struggle to balance their career and home lives. This is one reason I personally am in favor of one spouse focused on long hours, traveling, doing whatever it takes to have a large income, while the other spouse is focused on homemaking. If Family A had a net income of $100k with a working spouse and a SAH spouse, and Family B had a net income of $100k with both spouses working and balancing homemaking/caretaking duties, I would think generally speaking Family B would be a lot more stressed out.

FWIW, I don't think the "working spouse" must be the man and the "SAH spouse" must be the woman; it depends. Personally, although I'm fine with respecting others' decisions and would be supportive of my spouse's desires (even if those desires flip-flopped), I personally would want to adopt that provider role. I swear I'm not a Puritan; this is just the conclusion I've come to after weighing the alternatives.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2020, 10:58:57 AM »
I have 3 nephews. 5 nieces. 2 foster brothers and a half-brother.

Their ages range from one year old all the way up to 17 years old.

I've got enough kids around me. I don't need any of my own thanks.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2020, 11:11:07 AM »
To the original question.....of course it's OK if some people don't want kids. In fact, I like that less people aren't having kids just to have them because they think that's what they're 'supposed' to do. Me, I've always wanted to be a Dad since I could remember. I've always loved kids and kids have loved me for some reason. I never doubted that I would be a Dad someday and looked forward to it. BUT....I also didn't rush in to it. I had several serious girlfriends in my 20's but was always 'safe' to make sure there weren't any accidents....like me for instance. I was the product of a rainy night at the drive in.

When my wife and I started dating we were 'older' than a lot of our friends who already had kids (we were 26) and we talked about wanting a family pretty quickly after we were married. We had our first son a month before our first anniversary, second son 17 months later and our youngest was three years after that.

Even with the planning and talking about it and the desire....there still is no book or advice that you can consume to prepare you for being a parent. It's just suddenly BOOM...you are caring for a real human being that is going to count on you for close to two decades  :omg:

I will say that for me....I wouldn't trade being a Father for ANYTHING! Even in the times where I find myself thinking selfishly those instances evaporate pretty quickly. The rewards for fatherhood have outweighed anything negative 1000 fold. But it's not for everyone and it's a huge life altering thing to undertake. Again, impossible to describe. But I can't remember what life was like prior to having my kids and honestly I don't care to. But that's just me. 
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2020, 11:13:20 AM »
We have the freedom to make whatever choices we want. Of course it’s ok. The world is overpopulated as is and not everyone is cut out to be a parent. We don’t exist just to be baby-making machines. To put a child in this world when you don’t want one and/or don’t have the means to support them is quite frankly irresponsible.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2020, 11:26:40 AM »
If Family A had a net income of $100k with a working spouse and a SAH spouse, and Family B had a net income of $100k with both spouses working and balancing homemaking/caretaking duties, I would think generally speaking Family B would be a lot more stressed out.

Not so sure about this - it assumes that full-time childcare is more stressful than a full-time corporate job. I would say that having to watch over even one child full-time all day is arguably more stressful than the average corporate job, if you were to raise that to something like one parent staying home to watch 3-5 children then you get into madness inducing territory. Plus the caregiver is in the home all day, with no life outside of it, and probably expected to also be a homemaker for the breadwinner who is always at work.

I will not be the last to tell you that for many parents work becomes sort of an escape after you have kids. And many times, both parents want that "something else" outside of the house. And of course kids get older and go to school, and that puts the caregiver in the position of either becoming something like a homebody or else leaving them to try and restart their career after at least 5 years "off". It's incredibly challenging and a lot of people simply never make the adjustment back. I don't like to generalize, but of the other parents I'm friends with, the ones who have spouses that struggle the most with depression and other mental health illnesses seem to trend toward the ones who were stay-at-homes and then never were able to find something meaningful for themselves at home or outside of it once kids reached school age.


Offline Stadler

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2020, 11:27:36 AM »
I have 3 nephews. 5 nieces. 2 foster brothers and a half-brother.

Their ages range from one year old all the way up to 17 years old.

I've got enough kids around me. I don't need any of my own thanks.

I'm going to get fly-swatted on this, for sure, but IN MY EXPERIENCE, there is certain truth in the notion that "your kid" is not the same as "others' kids".    It's a running joke in my house that "I hate kids".   And I do, when they're those little wise-cracking, singing, dancing kids on TV.  Or they are the brats running around Wal-Mart wiping boogers on everything.  I can't name one time that I hated or regretted being a dad.  Frustrated, tired, scared, yes, but regretful?  Nope. 

Offline Chino

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2020, 11:28:24 AM »
If Family A had a net income of $100k with a working spouse and a SAH spouse, and Family B had a net income of $100k with both spouses working and balancing homemaking/caretaking duties, I would think generally speaking Family B would be a lot more stressed out.

Not so sure about this - it assumes that full-time childcare is more stressful than a full-time corporate job. I would say that having to watch over even one child full-time all day is arguably more stressful than the average corporate job.

I'm not a parent so I really have no clue what I'm talking about, but I'd trade my job for any of your children  :lol

Offline Skeever

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2020, 11:32:40 AM »
If Family A had a net income of $100k with a working spouse and a SAH spouse, and Family B had a net income of $100k with both spouses working and balancing homemaking/caretaking duties, I would think generally speaking Family B would be a lot more stressed out.

Not so sure about this - it assumes that full-time childcare is more stressful than a full-time corporate job. I would say that having to watch over even one child full-time all day is arguably more stressful than the average corporate job.

I'm not a parent so I really have no clue what I'm talking about, but I'd trade my job for any of your children  :lol

More fun and fulfilling =/= less exhausting and stressful

Offline H2

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Re: Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2020, 11:35:51 AM »
Not so sure about this - it assumes that full-time childcare is more stressful than a full-time corporate job. I would say that having to watch over even one child full-time all day is arguably more stressful than the average corporate job, if you were to raise that to something like one parent staying home to watch 3-5 children then you get into madness inducing territory. Plus the caregiver is in the home all day, with no life outside of it, and probably expected to also be a homemaker for the breadwinner who is always at work.

I will not be the last to tell you that for many parents work becomes sort of an escape after you have kids. And many times, both parents want that "something else" outside of the house. And of course kids get older and go to school, and that puts the caregiver in the position of either becoming something like a homebody or else leaving them to try and restart their career after at least 5 years "off". It's incredibly challenging and a lot of people simply never make the adjustment back. I don't like to generalize, but of the other parents I'm friends with, the ones who have spouses that struggle the most with depression and other mental health illnesses seem to trend toward the ones who were stay-at-homes and then never were able to find something meaningful for themselves at home or outside of it once kids reached school age.
These are great points. I might have to nuance my opinion on this a bit. I know my mom stayed home, but then worked for someone on and off with flexible hours. And she has a lot of community involvement. So maybe the problem is that such SAH people just don't have anything else going on, and everyone should try to have multiple passions?