Is it OK if some people don't want to have kids?

[wolfking]

Is it okay? Frankly it should be encouraged. I consider myself pretty eco minded, and while I take recycling home from work to make sure it is recycled properly, buy my power from a company that deals in 100% wind energy, and then power an electric car with some of that energy none of that has nearly the same environmental impact as our decision not to have children.

I'm not saying this to come out against those who have kids or want them, but as a society in our laws (via benefits for having kids throughout multiple areas) and just in general we need to stop glorifying and rewarding having children. We're centuries past the point where the primal reasons for that desire needs to be reflected in everything for our survival.

In Australia, the government give 'baby bonuses'.  When it came out I seriously think the dumbfuck side of society were having a kid to get free money.  The benefits they give out over here is crazy and the more kids you have, the more benefits you get.  It's fucking atrocious.

[cramx3]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

[millahh]

I've actually seen an argument from a hardcore Catholic that intentional childlessness was as great a sin as abortion (never mind that nobody cared about abortion until 40-50 years ago...), so this thread actually doesn't seem quite as [ahem] "wild" to me as it does to some others.

That said, of course it should be ok.  My parents were utterly unfit to have kids and at least one of them didn't want it (and the other wanted it for the wrong reasons), and I paid and continue to pay a very high price for that...

[wolfking]

I've actually seen an argument from a hardcore Catholic that intentional childlessness was as great a sin as abortion (never mind that nobody cared about abortion until 40-50 years ago...), so this thread actually doesn't seem quite as [ahem] "wild" to me as it does to some others.

That said, of course it should be ok.  My parents were utterly unfit to have kids and at least one of them didn't want it (and the other wanted it for the wrong reasons), and I paid and continue to pay a very high price for that...

Unfit parents who have kids never take the children into consideration.  They are the ones that ultimately suffer.

[The Walrus]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

Well, I just want to clarify I don't believe each successive generation is making the world worse than the next or anything like that, I just think our world is a fucking nightmare. Also, I can barely take care of myself, that's kind of important too 

[wolfking]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

THIS IS NOT ARGUMENT.   

But I'd love to talk that over sometime.  I get the concept/idea, but I'm of two minds.  I know for me, it was purely selfish, I wanted to pass on my stellar genes it wasn't really conscious.  I waited until I was 33 before I had my daughter, and it was all those things that you hear - best thing ever, changed my life, etc. etc. - but I also lived enough as an adult that I totally see the opposite.   SO MUCH of my life would be different if I didn't have a kid.  I'd've lived overseas for sure, I would have moved more for work, I would have been divorced a LOT earlier, I'd be significantly more wealthy, etc.     But FOR ME, I am a more compassionate, understanding person, I'm a better man and partner, and I'm a more SOBER man for having a kid.  At the end of the day, I am proud of how my daughter, even at the tender age of 19, is doing her part to make the world a better place than how she found it. 

Again, don't take this for argument; I get you, and I support your position 1000% (the right to have it).   I'm really just offering a point of view and with that, suggesting pretty strongly that it IS a personal decision, and the rationale, at the end of the day, doesn't really matter and neither point of view really ought to be "encouraged" except to equalize them.

No that's fine mate.  All points of view should be looked at and talked about.  I agree, neither view should be encouraged.  I do get sick of the surprised response still to this day with my point of view of not having kids.  I would never encourage it on anyone though.

[wolfking]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

Well, I just want to clarify I don't believe each successive generation is making the world worse than the next or anything like that, I just think our world is a fucking nightmare. Also, I can barely take care of myself, that's kind of important too 

I struggle finding motivation in doing the basics.  Making and going to appointments, paying bills, buying new shit for the house.    it drains me and can't see how I would ever have the want or energy to look after and raise another human being.

[The Walrus]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

Well, I just want to clarify I don't believe each successive generation is making the world worse than the next or anything like that, I just think our world is a fucking nightmare. Also, I can barely take care of myself, that's kind of important too 

I struggle finding motivation in doing the basics.  Making and going to appointments, paying bills, buying new shit for the house.    it drains me and can't see how I would ever have the want or energy to look after and raise another human being.

Kade, you and I would get along quite well sitting at the bar bitching about kids and other things! 

[cramx3]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

Well, I just want to clarify I don't believe each successive generation is making the world worse than the next or anything like that, I just think our world is a fucking nightmare. Also, I can barely take care of myself, that's kind of important too 

I struggle finding motivation in doing the basics.  Making and going to appointments, paying bills, buying new shit for the house.    it drains me and can't see how I would ever have the want or energy to look after and raise another human being.

Run a little less?  But yea, I'm with you.  Life is hard enough for one person, the extra responsibilities of another is a huge burden.

I've actually seen an argument from a hardcore Catholic that intentional childlessness was as great a sin as abortion (never mind that nobody cared about abortion until 40-50 years ago...), so this thread actually doesn't seem quite as [ahem] "wild" to me as it does to some others.

That said, of course it should be ok.  My parents were utterly unfit to have kids and at least one of them didn't want it (and the other wanted it for the wrong reasons), and I paid and continue to pay a very high price for that...

My parents are very religous but never really bring that up as a reason why they are upset about my decision.  It's simply because the last name dies with me.  (well I have a brother who is in a serious relationship so I don't know why I carry this burden alone, maybe being the oldest son?) But my response the last time he brought that up was to google or facebook our name (my dad and I have the same name) and see how many people will carry our name on  because while my full name isn't that common, there's certainly plenty of people out there with the same name.

[wolfking]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

There's a huge part of me that also feels this way, but I don't think this is anything new really.  I feel like every generation probably thought the next was going down hill.  I don't know, as much as I feel this way, I don't think this is nearly as big of a reason for me personally to not have kids, but I definitely think about this a lot.  Specifically in the case of my nieces as they are really the only children that I deeply care about.

Well, I just want to clarify I don't believe each successive generation is making the world worse than the next or anything like that, I just think our world is a fucking nightmare. Also, I can barely take care of myself, that's kind of important too 

I struggle finding motivation in doing the basics.  Making and going to appointments, paying bills, buying new shit for the house.    it drains me and can't see how I would ever have the want or energy to look after and raise another human being.

Kade, you and I would get along quite well sitting at the bar bitching about kids and other things! 

Haha, we'd be like the 2 old guys from the Muppets.

[WildRanger]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

Is 1970 the better time for raising kids than 2020? What do you think?

 

[The Walrus]

My outlook on life is pretty twisted and bleak, but I just really would feel horrible and selfish bringing life into this cruel, fucked up, cesspool of a world.  It just wouldn't be fair.

100% the same, buddy. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for my friends who are now raising babies or have kids going into school... but fuck, man. The world is screwed up in so many ways, and there's just no way I could bring a kid into it, personally. More power to those that can.

Is 1970 the better time for raising kids than 2020? What do you think?

Objectively?

[Ben_Jamin]

Simple answer....Yes...

Complicated Answer gets into P/R territory...

[Ben_Jamin]

Are you sure you can raise a kid?
Have you got what it takes?
Are you sure you can pay for it?
There's no room for mistakes!
Are you sure, can you take the risk?
Protect and keep it safe?
Are you sure, I am not convinced!
PARENTAL PROCREATION PERMIT!

[Kotowboy]

Absolutely.

Why should not wanting kids be frowned upon ?

Some people are TERRIBLE parents.

I really dislike babies and toddlers. I can only bear being around kids once they're like 12 upwards.



Why do people act like you're a horrible monster if yo don't want kids ( and hate dogs but that's a different thread )... ?

Some people just. don't. Like. Or. Want. Them. Or . Could. Cope. With . The . Responsibilty.

Cheers.

[H2]

I am considering becoming Catholic, and the teaching is that married couples should be "open to life"--meaning no birth control. However, a single person is not obligated to marry, so there is no obligation on single people to plan for a life with children. If a Catholic decides they don't want children. then I think they can remain single.

[lordxizor]

Why do people act like you're a horrible monster if yo don't want kids ( and hate dogs but that's a different thread )... ?

I honestly think most parents would say "I love being a parent but can understand why someone wouldn't want to have kids." Most dog lovers seem to think "Dogs are the greatest thing in the world and anyone who doesn't agree deserves to die a horrible painful death."

[Ben_Jamin]

Absolutely.

Why should not wanting kids be frowned upon ?

Some people are TERRIBLE parents.

I really dislike babies and toddlers. I can only bear being around kids once they're like 12 upwards.



Why do people act like you're a horrible monster if yo don't want kids ( and hate dogs but that's a different thread )... ?

Some people just. don't. Like. Or. Want. Them. Or . Could. Cope. With . The . Responsibilty.

Cheers.

I really find it sad, how The Leaders of the world, made it where it's harder to raise a kid. They made it where our Parental responsibilities are sacrificed. It's gotten where those who have kids, have to take a second job and drop their kids off at a daycare, in order to have enough just to eat, and have shelter over their heads, in turn losing valuable time spent with their kids. The Parents could be using that time spent, teaching their kids things they want them to learn. But it's harder when you can't spend as much time with them, while you work day and night.

And for those who think the world is a nightmare to bring kids into the world. I hate to break it to you, but since when has the world not been nightmarish.

Also, it's Nature to have kids. All things have offspring, EVERYTHING...Why else did the creator make reproduction feel so good.

[The Walrus]

And for those who think the world is a nightmare to bring kids into the world. I hate to break it to you, but since when has the world not been nightmarish.

That's not a revelation for me, that's pretty much the foundation of my belief in such a philosophy. That's the point. The world is a beautiful, lovely place. It's also a hell. For me, I choose to see the beauty in the world and appreciate it, while also recognizing all the problems, and my refusal to bring a kid into the madness when billions of others are doing that for me - and probably better than I ever could, frankly. I ain't good with kids. You just pick 'em up like a gourd, right? Palm of the hand on the top of the head, carry 'em around like a rutabaga?

Also,

Also, it's Nature to have kids. All things have offspring, EVERYTHING...Why else did the creator make reproduction feel so good.

Brother I will give you $100 to stand in front of a crowd of new moms and say that. 

[hunnus2000]

I am considering becoming Catholic, and the teaching is that married couples should be "open to life"--meaning no birth control. However, a single person is not obligated to marry, so there is no obligation on single people to plan for a life with children. If a Catholic decides they don't want children. then I think they can remain single.

So your considering becoming a member of a child molesting death cult??

Yes - I just went there.

[Ben_Jamin]

And for those who think the world is a nightmare to bring kids into the world. I hate to break it to you, but since when has the world not been nightmarish.

That's not a revelation for me, that's pretty much the foundation of my belief in such a philosophy. That's the point.

I guess, in a way, it's a good thing you get that point. 

That's also a premise to why I say, "Our human problems have always been the same. They just keep evolving over time."

[Ben_Jamin]

And for those who think the world is a nightmare to bring kids into the world. I hate to break it to you, but since when has the world not been nightmarish.

That's not a revelation for me, that's pretty much the foundation of my belief in such a philosophy. That's the point. The world is a beautiful, lovely place. It's also a hell. For me, I choose to see the beauty in the world and appreciate it, while also recognizing all the problems, and my refusal to bring a kid into the madness when billions of others are doing that for me - and probably better than I ever could, frankly. I ain't good with kids. You just pick 'em up like a gourd, right? Palm of the hand on the top of the head, carry 'em around like a rutabaga?

Also,

Also, it's Nature to have kids. All things have offspring, EVERYTHING...Why else did the creator make reproduction feel so good.

Brother I will give you $100 to stand in front of a crowd of new moms and say that. 

I didn't say anything about the Birthing feeling good. The Act of Reproducing, is what feels good. It may be extremely painful, yes, but I know new moms who will now do anything for that child. It's why it's held as a sacred act.

And...I'll stop there, don't want to go into a big ass book long essay.

[El Barto]

Also, the govt should stay the f--- out of people's personal family decisions (whom to marry, how many kids to have, how many people to marry, everything!).

I are Cletus Spuckler, and I approve of this here string of letters.

[The Walrus]

Also, the govt should stay the f--- out of people's personal family decisions (whom to marry, how many kids to have, how many people to marry, everything!).

I are Cletus Spuckler, and I approve of this here string of letters.

 

[Ben_Jamin]

Also, the govt should stay the f--- out of people's personal family decisions (whom to marry, how many kids to have, how many people to marry, everything!).

I are Cletus Spuckler, and I approve of this here string of letters.

Kids wer eatin dinner tonight!

[wolfking]

Absolutely.

Why should not wanting kids be frowned upon ?

Some people are TERRIBLE parents.

I really dislike babies and toddlers. I can only bear being around kids once they're like 12 upwards.



Why do people act like you're a horrible monster if yo don't want kids ( and hate dogs but that's a different thread )... ?

Some people just. don't. Like. Or. Want. Them. Or . Could. Cope. With . The . Responsibilty.

Cheers.

I really find it sad, how The Leaders of the world, made it where it's harder to raise a kid. They made it where our Parental responsibilities are sacrificed. It's gotten where those who have kids, have to take a second job and drop their kids off at a daycare, in order to have enough just to eat, and have shelter over their heads, in turn losing valuable time spent with their kids. The Parents could be using that time spent, teaching their kids things they want them to learn. But it's harder when you can't spend as much time with them, while you work day and night.

And for those who think the world is a nightmare to bring kids into the world. I hate to break it to you, but since when has the world not been nightmarish.

Also, it's Nature to have kids. All things have offspring, EVERYTHING...Why else did the creator make reproduction feel so good.

It's your choice to have kids.  Why should others make that easier for you?  You want to bring kids into the world, you have to work to support and raise them. if people can't afford it, don't have them.  Don't blame others or expect it to be made easier for you.

[cramx3]

With regards to the government supporting children, I think they have an incentive to do that, but as a single dude, of course I don't like it, but I can see some reason for it.  Look at Japan, that country isn't giving enough births to the point it may not exist in the future. 

[Kotowboy]

" How can you not have kids ? It's NATURE..."

It reminds me of Some Kind Of Monster - where Newsted says - " Music is my children - I choose not to have any kids "

And Hetfield ( on the DVD commentary ) says something like " You choose not to do LIFE ? "

Like - as if it's a MANDATORY REQUIREMENT OF EXISTENCE.

No it isn't. No more than fuckin' Bungee Jumping.

It's a choice. I shit you not - sometimes I remember that getting married and having kids is not mandatory and I breathe a sigh of relief.

Imagine if getting married and having babies was LEGAL AND MANDATORY ? Nightmare.


( But Kotowboy - you're an ugly worthless sack of shit - nobody would want you anyway ! )

[Skeever]

The whole "the world is so screwed up, it would be wrong to bring life" argument doesn't hold up. First, most people who say things like that would rather be alive than dead, and betray that thinking with their own actions. Second, if you really felt that way, it doesn't take much but looking at yourself, your peers, and the generations before you to see that nobody currently on this Earth is on their way to saving it. The future generations are the only hope there is.

I'm not saying that people need to have kids, and In fairness people who don't want kids have had to put up with a lot of bull crap moral arguments urging them to have them, but the inverse of that position (making going childless the moral necessity) is just as flawed

[WilliamMunny]

I am considering becoming Catholic, and the teaching is that married couples should be "open to life"--meaning no birth control. However, a single person is not obligated to marry, so there is no obligation on single people to plan for a life with children. If a Catholic decides they don't want children. then I think they can remain single.

So your considering becoming a member of a child molesting death cult??

Yes - I just went there.

Speaking as a catholic, talk about painting with a mile-wide brush.

But the real reason for this post: for the love of God who was the person who voted no???

[wolfking]

The whole "the world is so screwed up, it would be wrong to bring life" argument doesn't hold up. First, most people who say things like that would rather be alive than dead, and betray that thinking with their own actions. Second, if you really felt that way, it doesn't take much but looking at yourself, your peers, and the generations before you to see that nobody currently on this Earth is on their way to saving it. The future generations are the only hope there is.

I'm not saying that people need to have kids, and In fairness people who don't want kids have had to put up with a lot of bull crap moral arguments urging them to have them, but the inverse of that position (making going childless the moral necessity) is just as flawed

Isn't that our right however to use that as a valid argument for ourselves?  It's all about the individual and their views on life and the world IMO.

[The Walrus]

The whole "the world is so screwed up, it would be wrong to bring life" argument doesn't hold up. First, most people who say things like that would rather be alive than dead, and betray that thinking with their own actions. Second, if you really felt that way, it doesn't take much but looking at yourself, your peers, and the generations before you to see that nobody currently on this Earth is on their way to saving it. The future generations are the only hope there is.

I'm not saying that people need to have kids, and In fairness people who don't want kids have had to put up with a lot of bull crap moral arguments urging them to have them, but the inverse of that position (making going childless the moral necessity) is just as flawed

This is fine, if, I suppose, those were my beliefs, but this post makes a lot of assumptions about others. And nobody once said that going childless was a moral necessity or the way others need to think. 100% a personal, individual decision, that's all.

[Skeever]

The whole "the world is so screwed up, it would be wrong to bring life" argument doesn't hold up. First, most people who say things like that would rather be alive than dead, and betray that thinking with their own actions. Second, if you really felt that way, it doesn't take much but looking at yourself, your peers, and the generations before you to see that nobody currently on this Earth is on their way to saving it. The future generations are the only hope there is.

I'm not saying that people need to have kids, and In fairness people who don't want kids have had to put up with a lot of bull crap moral arguments urging them to have them, but the inverse of that position (making going childless the moral necessity) is just as flawed

Isn't that our right however to use that as a valid argument for ourselves?  It's all about the individual and their views on life and the world IMO.

Sure, but it's also my right to hear opinions like that and think that people don't understand or really believe what they are saying, even if they think they do, no matter how smart they are.

[King Postwhore]

My older cousin was adamant about not having children.   Then he remarried and had a boy in his early 40's and it completely changed his perception of having children.

I think whatever you do in life you do throw yourself into it but a child is your dna. It is another level.

[Skeever]

I am considering becoming Catholic, and the teaching is that married couples should be "open to life"--meaning no birth control. However, a single person is not obligated to marry, so there is no obligation on single people to plan for a life with children. If a Catholic decides they don't want children. then I think they can remain single.

There is actually birth control, it's just called natural family planning and only the craziest of us actually rely on it because it is suspiciously ineffective. I think the church's position on Life is beautiful, often misunderstood, and yet possibly very flawed. the current pope seems to recognize that life as it should be probably is not possible under global capitalism and has encouraged a far more sympathetic and understanding approach to how the church talks about these issues.