Does the medium of an album affect perception, aka Why Is Disc 1 > Disc 2?

[cramx3]

I think others have already hit the nail in the head here, people's attention span isn't that long and record companies know this and stack the singles in the first half of an album

I've always found this very annoying, especially in commercial (-ish) albums. Look at Bon Jovi's albums - theirs is not a tracklist, it's literally "the singles and then the fillers" in that order. Dry County in the middle of Keep the Faith and not as an epic closer? the hell!

And there are so many cases - Poison first track on Trash by Alice Cooper, the record company wanting Judas Priest to open British Steel with Breaking the Law and not the intended opener Rapid Fire, etc....

To me, those are just not good albums then.  A good album is well rounded, not front loaded.  But most artists are like this, not many can write awesome albums from front to back.

[Stadler]

KISS' The Elder and Queensryche's The Warning both suffer in their original versions from the record company wanting to "feature" the singles early, ruining the flow of those albums. Played in the intended order, both are far better.

ESPECIALLY The Elder.  My iPod has it in the intended order.

And of course, there's the opposite; Abacab could have been a double, and there are "setlists" out there with the added songs (Paperlate, Naminanu, Submarine, You Might Recall, Me And Virgil).  There is an expanded The Joshua Tree as well, with the added b-sides there (Luminous Times, Walk To The Water, Spanish Eyes, Deep In The Heart, Silver And Gold, The Sweetest Thing and Race Against Time).    I have playlists on my iPod of both in the expanded format, but that's tough, since I've listened to both so often in the original form it sounds weird as a matter of course.   I think ultimately both are better in the single disk version, but there's always the wonder of what the record would sound like if the band did what they (maybe) intended.

[HOF]

KISS' The Elder and Queensryche's The Warning both suffer in their original versions from the record company wanting to "feature" the singles early, ruining the flow of those albums. Played in the intended order, both are far better.

ESPECIALLY The Elder.  My iPod has it in the intended order.

And of course, there's the opposite; Abacab could have been a double, and there are "setlists" out there with the added songs (Paperlate, Naminanu, Submarine, You Might Recall, Me And Virgil).  There is an expanded The Joshua Tree as well, with the added b-sides there (Luminous Times, Walk To The Water, Spanish Eyes, Deep In The Heart, Silver And Gold, The Sweetest Thing and Race Against Time).    I have playlists on my iPod of both in the expanded format, but that's tough, since I've listened to both so often in the original form it sounds weird as a matter of course.   I think ultimately both are better in the single disk version, but there's always the wonder of what the record would sound like if the band did what they (maybe) intended.

Falling into Infiniti should have been a double (though I’d still trim a few songs).

[Buddyhunter1]

Falling into Infiniti should have been a double (though I’d still trim a few songs).

God no. If there's some good songs that didn't make the cut there's more than enough crap on that album for them to replace.

[Samsara]

Responding to the original post, I think the presentation of an album, whether it is one disc or two, the track order, etc., etc., are vital components of an album being perceived well. They are artistic decisions and are key to the listening experience -- at least for old school album folks.

As for the concept album 2 CD theory, the first that comes to mind immediately is Stone Sour's House of Gold and Bones. The first album was AMAZING to me. One of my favorite albums in recent memory. But the second half...it limps. Part of the problem is, they were released separately, so the lead track on the second album is more mid tempo, and the album sort of loses steam, IMO.

I think if you are going to release a concept, do it in one release, not two.

That said, even if it IS one release (on two discs) the pacing and story are key. If you don't have enough of a story to do a second part, make sure the first part leaves off at a spot where listeners are either left wondering what happened (in a good way -- purposeful speculation) or simply re-think the project and make it one album. Even for album people like myself, if something drones on and on forever, even with lengthier attention spans, it can get to be tedious. I think you always need to think about how a listener will consume the music. These days, that's probably on-the-go (in the car, or the stop-start of doing chores and errands with an iPod or similar thing.

Really good topic. But I think to dial it in:

1. Make sure there is enough captivating material to support a double-CD. Be liberal in cutting if you don't.
2. Be conscious of the pacing and the way your particular audience will listen.

Regarding Queensryche's The Warning -- that record went from being in the middle of the catalog for me as an album listening experience to my clear #2 behind Mindcrime...just by putting the track order in its originally intended sequence. Something just connected when I did that. I loved the songs I loved from it regardless, but that small tweak of the song order really made a huge difference. Both in my enjoyment of it, and artistically, as you can see what the band was trying to achieve with it.

[Stadler]

KISS' The Elder and Queensryche's The Warning both suffer in their original versions from the record company wanting to "feature" the singles early, ruining the flow of those albums. Played in the intended order, both are far better.

ESPECIALLY The Elder.  My iPod has it in the intended order.

And of course, there's the opposite; Abacab could have been a double, and there are "setlists" out there with the added songs (Paperlate, Naminanu, Submarine, You Might Recall, Me And Virgil).  There is an expanded The Joshua Tree as well, with the added b-sides there (Luminous Times, Walk To The Water, Spanish Eyes, Deep In The Heart, Silver And Gold, The Sweetest Thing and Race Against Time).    I have playlists on my iPod of both in the expanded format, but that's tough, since I've listened to both so often in the original form it sounds weird as a matter of course.   I think ultimately both are better in the single disk version, but there's always the wonder of what the record would sound like if the band did what they (maybe) intended.

Falling into Infiniti should have been a double (though I’d still trim a few songs).

I basically only listen to the "Director's Cut" of that album.  While I agree with BuddyHunter1 that there was room to cut, I almost always go to the Ytsejam release if I want to hear that album.

[HOF]

Falling into Infiniti should have been a double (though I’d still trim a few songs).

God no. If there's some good songs that didn't make the cut there's more than enough crap on that album for them to replace.

Here’s how I would do it (and I genuinely like all of these tracks):

Disc 1 (just under 52 minutes)

1. New Millennium
2. You or Me
3. Raise the Knife
4. Peruvian Skies
5. Cover My Eyes (could be convinced to drop this or include Burning My Soul instead)
6. Hell’s Kitchen
7. Lines in the Sand

Disc 2 (just over 52 minutes)

1. Take Away My Pain
2. Hollow Years
3. Where Are You Now (demo needs a little cleaning up/production but there’s a good song in there)
4. Speak to Me
5. The Way it Used to Be
6. Anna Lee
7. Trial of Tears

[pg1067]

Falling into Infiniti should have been a double (though I’d still trim a few songs).

God no. If there's some good songs that didn't make the cut there's more than enough crap on that album for them to replace.

Amen!  It'd have been better as an EP.  Or, if they hadn't already done ACOS, the could've done (in no particular order):

ACOS
YNM
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears

THAT would have been a great album.

Regarding Queensryche's The Warning -- that record went from being in the middle of the catalog for me as an album listening experience to my clear #2 behind Mindcrime...just by putting the track order in its originally intended sequence. Something just connected when I did that. I loved the songs I loved from it regardless, but that small tweak of the song order really made a huge difference. Both in my enjoyment of it, and artistically, as you can see what the band was trying to achieve with it.

One of these days, I'm going to have to listen to the album with the intended track order.  I love the album as is, so I just don't get what all the fuss is about with this.

[Buddyhunter1]

ACOS
YNM
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears

THAT would have been a great album.

YNM and Anna Lee but not Peruvian Skies or Lines The Sand? Cmon.

[Setlist Scotty]

Amen!  It'd have been better as an EP.  Or, if they hadn't already done ACOS, the could've done (in no particular order):

ACOS
YNM
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears

THAT would have been a great album.

I know you abhor them (the FII-era tracks that didn't make the cut), but one of the options that the band had considered when recording and releasing ACoS was what else they could do. Besides a selection of tracks from the Uncovered gig, they also considered releasing TLF and Eve (chose not to because they wanted the new EP to have DS on all the tracks) or recording a couple of other new tracks with the new lineup (they opted not to because they wanted to save them for the new album). Given that RtK and WAYN were the first 2 tracks completed, it's not hard to imagine that they would've been the ones that ended up along with ACoS had they gone with the third option instead of the first. Would be interesting to see how those songs would be perceived now had they been a part of the EP instead of relegated to lost FII tracks.

[The Letter M]

Amen!  It'd have been better as an EP.  Or, if they hadn't already done ACOS, the could've done (in no particular order):

ACOS
YNM
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears

THAT would have been a great album.

I know you abhor them (the FII-era tracks that didn't make the cut), but one of the options that the band had considered when recording and releasing ACoS was what else they could do. Besides a selection of tracks from the Uncovered gig, they also considered releasing TLF and Eve (chose not to because they wanted the new EP to have DS on all the tracks) or recording a couple of other new tracks with the new lineup (they opted not to because they wanted to save them for the new album). Given that RtK and WAYN were the first 2 tracks completed, it's not hard to imagine that they would've been the ones that ended up along with ACoS had they gone with the third option instead of the first. Would be interesting to see how those songs would be perceived now had they been a part of the EP instead of relegated to lost FII tracks.

I always thought that a re-issue of ACOS with the Cleaning Out The Closet B-Sides would have made for a great album, with or without DLPM/TLF/Eve. Even if it was just the 5 songs with DS + ACOS, it would still make for an exciting 59:24 long collection. Even if you threw on the other three songs, it would be an awesome double vinyl:
Side 1: A Change Of Seasons
Side 2: Raise The Knife, Where Are You Now?
Side 3: The Way It Used To Be, Cover My Eyes, Speak To Me
Side 4: Eve, To Life Forever (one or both versions), Don't Look Past Me

-Marc.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

On the topic of two disc double albums and their length:

I think it's just natural that the longer a project tends to be, the more likely it is to include some filler or duds in the tracklist, with rare exceptions. One of my favorite albums of all time, Aphrodite's Child's 666, is a double album and in my opinion doesn't contain any tracks that need removing (although I'm aware that I'm in the minority who feel that way). But even this album is just short of 80 minutes and could arguably fit onto a single disc (despite it being too discs for the CD release).

The longest album I can think of that justifies its length is Swans' Soundtracks for the Blind. While not every song is an absolute banger, and there are certainly ones that pale in comparison to others, taking that album as a whole package is how I would rather experience it. It's just so massive in scale and varied enough that I find it more or less consistently engaging.

[HOF]

Amen!  It'd have been better as an EP.  Or, if they hadn't already done ACOS, the could've done (in no particular order):

ACOS
YNM
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears

THAT would have been a great album.

I know you abhor them (the FII-era tracks that didn't make the cut), but one of the options that the band had considered when recording and releasing ACoS was what else they could do. Besides a selection of tracks from the Uncovered gig, they also considered releasing TLF and Eve (chose not to because they wanted the new EP to have DS on all the tracks) or recording a couple of other new tracks with the new lineup (they opted not to because they wanted to save them for the new album). Given that RtK and WAYN were the first 2 tracks completed, it's not hard to imagine that they would've been the ones that ended up along with ACoS had they gone with the third option instead of the first. Would be interesting to see how those songs would be perceived now had they been a part of the EP instead of relegated to lost FII tracks.

I always thought that a re-issue of ACOS with the Cleaning Out The Closet B-Sides would have made for a great album, with or without DLPM/TLF/Eve. Even if it was just the 5 songs with DS + ACOS, it would still make for an exciting 59:24 long collection. Even if you threw on the other three songs, it would be an awesome double vinyl:
Side 1: A Change Of Seasons
Side 2: Raise The Knife, Where Are You Now?
Side 3: The Way It Used To Be, Cover My Eyes, Speak To Me
Side 4: Eve, To Life Forever (one or both versions), Don't Look Past Me

-Marc.

Yeah, I’ve thought about this a time or two. Would have been nice to have a full “studio” album with ACOS and a separate full concert live album of the Ronnie Scott’s gig.

[The Letter M]

On the topic of two disc double albums and their length:

I think it's just natural that the longer a project tends to be, the more likely it is to include some filler or duds in the tracklist, with rare exceptions. One of my favorite albums of all time, Aphrodite's Child's 666, is a double album and in my opinion doesn't contain any tracks that need removing (although I'm aware that I'm in the minority who feel that way). But even this album is just short of 80 minutes and could arguably fit onto a single disc (despite it being too discs for the CD release).

The longest album I can think of that justifies its length is Swans' Soundtracks for the Blind. While not every song is an absolute banger, and there are certainly ones that pale in comparison to others, taking that album as a whole package is how I would rather experience it. It's just so massive in scale and varied enough that I find it more or less consistently engaging.

That is a lengthy double album, at about 141 minutes (according to its wiki article). The longest double album that comes to mind, personally, is The Flower Kings' Unfold The Future, which clocks in at over 151 minutes, which puts it just shy of 9 minutes from the max 160 minutes a two-CD album could get.

It can be a bit of a slog to get through, and there are certainly songs I like less than others, but I've never really given thought to marking either disc as less desirable than the other, mostly because whenever I listen to it, it's in a digital format, so I've not thought of the album as being on two CDs in a long time. It's just one really long album, with good tracks throughout. Then again, going into an album that opens with a 31 minute epic isn't really going for the "putting the singles up front" mentality.

-Marc.

[Stadler]

Tastes.  Tastes.

Cover My Eyes is a top ten DT song for me, YNM is a regular skip (and no, not because of Desmond Child; I don't like the chorus:  "Yeeeewwwwwww.... Not Mayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!"), and Lines In The Sand is a frequent skip (the song itself is great; I can't listen to Doug Pinnick's wailing).   

[ThatOneGuy2112]

On the topic of two disc double albums and their length:

I think it's just natural that the longer a project tends to be, the more likely it is to include some filler or duds in the tracklist, with rare exceptions. One of my favorite albums of all time, Aphrodite's Child's 666, is a double album and in my opinion doesn't contain any tracks that need removing (although I'm aware that I'm in the minority who feel that way). But even this album is just short of 80 minutes and could arguably fit onto a single disc (despite it being too discs for the CD release).

The longest album I can think of that justifies its length is Swans' Soundtracks for the Blind. While not every song is an absolute banger, and there are certainly ones that pale in comparison to others, taking that album as a whole package is how I would rather experience it. It's just so massive in scale and varied enough that I find it more or less consistently engaging.

That is a lengthy double album, at about 141 minutes (according to its wiki article). The longest double album that comes to mind, personally, is The Flower Kings' Unfold The Future, which clocks in at over 151 minutes, which puts it just shy of 9 minutes from the max 160 minutes a two-CD album could get.

It can be a bit of a slog to get through, and there are certainly songs I like less than others, but I've never really given thought to marking either disc as less desirable than the other, mostly because whenever I listen to it, it's in a digital format, so I've not thought of the album as being on two CDs in a long time. It's just one really long album, with good tracks throughout. Then again, going into an album that opens with a 31 minute epic isn't really going for the "putting the singles up front" mentality.

-Marc.

That's another good point. Most people are listening digitally these days. It can be hard to distinguish when one disc is supposed to end and the next begins when you're not looking at the tracklist, unless the music itself makes it explicitly obvious (like the fade out at the end of A New Beginning).

Soundtracks for the Blind is one album I don't think is necessarily front-loaded. Its standout moments are pretty well paced and peppered throughout, which I think makes it easier to sit through in its entirety.

[Buddyhunter1]

Most people are listening digitally these days. It can be hard to distinguish when one disc is supposed to end and the next begins when you're not looking at the tracklist, unless the music itself makes it explicitly obvious (like the fade out at the end of A New Beginning).

Yeah, an example of this would be the most recent Thank You Scientist album. It's a tad bit over 80 minutes and digitally it's listed as a single disc, so I'm not even sure where exactly the split is on physical versions.

Also A New Beginning is the second to last song on the first disc, not the last.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

Derp.    Goes to show how often I've even listened to the album. i figured I'd use an example most on the forum would know of, but you get the idea.

[The Letter M]

Most people are listening digitally these days. It can be hard to distinguish when one disc is supposed to end and the next begins when you're not looking at the tracklist, unless the music itself makes it explicitly obvious (like the fade out at the end of A New Beginning).

Yeah, an example of this would be the most recent Thank You Scientist album. It's a tad bit over 80 minutes and digitally it's listed as a single disc, so I'm not even sure where exactly the split is on physical versions.

Also A New Beginning is the second to last song on the first disc, not the last.

Listening digitally is what prompted me to make this thread in the first place - the idea that longer albums don't have to be relegated to physical media and thus, might lose the perception that its physical confines can define what "half" of an album is better, since a lot of fans of bands that release double-albums often debate "which disc is better" when, IMO, it should all just been seen as one album anyway.

-Marc.

[Buddyhunter1]

Yeah, streaming definitely gives artists the opportunity to create albums with no length limit while also not needing to worry about how to divide it up into distinct chunks, potentially with no gaps in playback whatsoever. But streaming also encourages artists to put out shorter albums more frequently, so...

[pg1067]

YNM and Anna Lee but not Peruvian Skies or Lines The Sand? Cmon.

Lines:  Those few lines by whoever the heck that dude is ruins an otherwise decent song.
Skies:  Not really a fan of the music, but the lyrics really ruin it for me.

I know you abhor them (the FII-era tracks that didn't make the cut). . . .

I don't think "abhor" is the right word.  For the most part, I just think they're bland and not at all up to DT's standards, and that includes TLF and DLPM (and, for that reason, I scoff when the opinion is expressed that those songs are something wonderful).  I've mentioned before that, when they played TLF during one of the I&W tour shows I saw (the 4th of 4 shows), I assumed it was a work in progress that might be get developed into something that would show up on the next album.  It's just never sounded like a complete song.

[HOF]

I love the live acoustic version of To Live Forever that’s on 5 Years in a Livetime. I don’t really care so much for the full electric version with the I&W production either.

[DTA]

I love the live acoustic version of To Live Forever that’s on 5 Years in a Livetime. I don’t really care so much for the full electric version with the I&W production either.

Same. I prefer all of the b-sides they did acoustically to their electric counterparts, especially Speak To Me (though the version on Cleaning Out The Closet seems to be a very basic demo).

[HOF]

I love the live acoustic version of To Live Forever that’s on 5 Years in a Livetime. I don’t really care so much for the full electric version with the I&W production either.

Same. I prefer all of the b-sides they did acoustically to their electric counterparts, especially Speak To Me (though the version on Cleaning Out The Closet seems to be a very basic demo).

I like the Cure-ish vibe of the Speak to Me demo, though it would have been cool to hear with a full acoustic drum track as well. Really cool song either way IMO. A shame it was never finished.

[DTA]

I love the live acoustic version of To Live Forever that’s on 5 Years in a Livetime. I don’t really care so much for the full electric version with the I&W production either.

Same. I prefer all of the b-sides they did acoustically to their electric counterparts, especially Speak To Me (though the version on Cleaning Out The Closet seems to be a very basic demo).

I like the Cure-ish vibe of the Speak to Me demo, though it would have been cool to hear with a full acoustic drum track as well. Really cool song either way IMO. A shame it was never finished.

This is why FII is my favorite DT album/era...you have songs that sound like The Cure next to songs like Lines In The Sand and Peruvian Skies. The diversity in sound and influences is really exciting

[HOF]

I love the live acoustic version of To Live Forever that’s on 5 Years in a Livetime. I don’t really care so much for the full electric version with the I&W production either.

Same. I prefer all of the b-sides they did acoustically to their electric counterparts, especially Speak To Me (though the version on Cleaning Out The Closet seems to be a very basic demo).

I like the Cure-ish vibe of the Speak to Me demo, though it would have been cool to hear with a full acoustic drum track as well. Really cool song either way IMO. A shame it was never finished.

This is why FII is my favorite DT album/era...you have songs that sound like The Cure next to songs like Lines In The Sand and Peruvian Skies. The diversity in sound and influences is really exciting

Yeah, I get why the hardcore Prog-metal fans don’t like it. I’m not one of those though, so I love the diversity and even the more “commercial” aspect of those songs.

[Kotowboy]

.

[Stadler]

I think you guys are on to something.  While the PARTICULAR mix on FII isn't my favorite, it's one of the things I loved about DT early on.  The influences and vibes were varied and seemed... not random, but creative.   Metallica and Pink Floyd in the same song?   YES PLEASE!    That's what really made DT special for me.   I think as we've moved towards the present, there's this increasing "well, this is our METAL song, and this is our FLOYD song, and this is our JOURNEY song".  I've written extensively about Mike's approach to his multiple bands; this is my METAL project, this is my OLD PROG project, this is my NEW PROG project...  It's kind of why I like TNMB so much; it's the one project out of all of them that, for me, still seems to still have some "here we go!" to it.   

[DTA]

I think you guys are on to something.  While the PARTICULAR mix on FII isn't my favorite, it's one of the things I loved about DT early on.  The influences and vibes were varied and seemed... not random, but creative.   Metallica and Pink Floyd in the same song?   YES PLEASE!    That's what really made DT special for me.   I think as we've moved towards the present, there's this increasing "well, this is our METAL song, and this is our FLOYD song, and this is our JOURNEY song".  I've written extensively about Mike's approach to his multiple bands; this is my METAL project, this is my OLD PROG project, this is my NEW PROG project...  It's kind of why I like TNMB so much; it's the one project out of all of them that, for me, still seems to still have some "here we go!" to it.

Yeah, the segmentation of styles really marks what I consider the dividing line between old-DT and new-DT. Old-DT just felt like a perfect, natural blend of all their influences with a modern, progressive touch, whereas somewhere around Six Degrees/ToT, they started writing songs "in the style of *insert band*." Mike was probably the catalyst for the overt "borrowing" of more modern bands, which is why DT feels a bit more like themselves again from ADToE forward, but Petrucci is clearly guilty too with songs like Build Me Up, Break Me Down and Fall Into The Light.

[Setlist Scotty]

Yeah, the segmentation of styles really marks what I consider the dividing line between old-DT and new-DT. Old-DT just felt like a perfect, natural blend of all their influences with a modern, progressive touch, whereas somewhere around Six Degrees/ToT, they started writing songs "in the style of *insert band*."

But couldn't that be said for FII as well? I mean, when I listen to it, besides PSkies being a mashup of Floyd and Metallica, the ToT intro sounds like Rush's Xanadu meets Floyd's Wish You Were Here with UK's In the Dead of Night for the instrumental section. AL smacks of Elton John. HYears reminds me of Sting.

[DTA]

You’re absolutely right. I guess it comes down to the fact that for me, those bands blend better within the DT framework than more modern bands they borrowed from.