Author Topic: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?  (Read 3028 times)

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Online TAC

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2021, 05:43:05 AM »
Good call on Izzy guys.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Peter Mc

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2021, 11:00:14 AM »
I think the only “problem” with UYI is that they are not Appetite.  Appetite For Destruction was, and remains an incredible record full of snarling punk rock attitude and killer songs.  They then followed it up by not just releasing a single album but, what were classed at the time as, two simultaneous double albums.  Unlike Appetite, these were sprawling, ambitious, epic albums with super long tracks and power ballads.  While they had their moments, they were far from the more stripped back punk rock roots of the band and that rubbed some people the wrong way.  Also, when a band puts out two double albums at once, there will always be those who will comment that they should have exercised some self-control and picked the best songs for one album instead of putting everything out.

For me they are both superb albums especially when you consider just how many songs are on them.  It’s incredible really how consistently high the quality of the songs are.  Yes you have My World which is awful and the cringeworthy lyrics of Get In The Ring (a bit of a waste of an incredible Slash guitar melody) but there is so much great music that you can forgive the odd misstep here and there.  I think Appetite For Destruction is pretty much untouchable and one of the best albums ever made but UYI I and II are a very worthy follow up and not too far behind it.

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2021, 11:28:59 AM »
I think that's a good point.  Remember, Guns only has three/four studio albums at this point:  Appetite, UYI, and Chinese Democracy.   And as whack as that is, over 32 years, the fact remains that Axl, more than any artist you can name, as never released the same album twice.  Appetite is very different than UYI is very different than Chinese Democracy.  Some fans don't like that.

Offline Elite

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2021, 12:01:27 PM »
He’s also released VERY little music for a recording artist, considering he’s been at it 32 years then.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2021, 12:19:09 PM »
The quantity of an artist's works is not reflective of the quality of an artist's works. I know that's not explicitly what you're saying, Elite, so I'm not coming at you bro, but still. It shouldn't matter that he has released 'very little' music over 32 years. Appetite and UYIs are some of the biggest rock albums in rock history 3 decades on. Chinese Democracy still got a firestorm of press 14 years after their last studio record, and launched them into a multiple year-long world tour where they played for 3-4 hours every show in arenas and stadiums. He's released exactly one studio album in the last 27 years, and the band still rakes in buku bucks because their music is just that good to so many people. He spends countless hours in studios, why? Because he has money. Why? Because his music was so popular it made him that much money. That's not anything to sneeze at just because he isn't putting stuff out now. I dunno, that's my perspective on the topic of how often artists release music. Time will tell if they're really considered one of the greats. Buckethead puts out hundreds of albums but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a handful that are super memorable because of the ways he goes about creating so much music. I know most of the stuff I've heard has been more or less random noodling. I mention him not only because he's a prolific musician but also ex-GnR! :)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 12:58:16 PM by The Walrus »
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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2021, 01:22:25 PM »
The quantity of an artist's works is not reflective of the quality of an artist's works.

Oh, I definitely agree on this, that's a no-brainer.

I know that's not explicitly what you're saying, Elite, so I'm not coming at you bro, but still. It shouldn't matter that he has released 'very little' music over 32 years.

Well, to be fair, I don't really know what I meant by that comment either. I guess what I would like to see in a musician, or in an artist is that they can keep themselves relevant by changing up things and doing new stuff. Playing the same tunes every day for 30 years in a row, is the opposite of that. That's not to say that what they're doing is not good, or that they're not allowed to, or whatever. People are still paying money to see this band play, and the band still performs. As an artist though, they've basically stopped producing anything meaningful. Again, that's not to say November Rain can't have meaning to you, or that it's not ok to rock out to Welcome to the Jungle, because they're old songs. Sure, go ahead if that's what you want to do. But at this point, Guns and Roses (but also the Rolling Stones, or any band on their 20th Farewell Tour) are more 'entertainers' or 'performers', than 'musicians'. I don't know if that distinction makes any sense, I also don't know whether it's relevant at all and I'm literally typing out what I'm thinking here, so excuse the stream of consciousness style of writing here as I try to figure out why it mattered enough to me to point it out in the first place.
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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2021, 01:35:30 PM »
As someone who has never listened to Guns n Roses aside from the hits I've heard on the radio, in movies etc, I always thought they had made more albums just based on their status and was surprised to learn they had made so few albums.

Just from a neutral/not familiar with all the music perspective I actually admire and appreciate the fact they followed up their debut album with twin albums with as long running time as they have. Without having heard them it gives me a Load/Reload vibe, which was another pretty ambitious thing that I appreciate.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2021, 01:42:40 PM »
Without having heard them it gives me a Load/Reload vibe, which was another pretty ambitious thing that I appreciate.


It's not really the same, though, because Load/Reload were made mid-career, not directly following a debut album and also Load/Reload were a massive departure in sound and style for Metallica whereas the UYI albums from Guns were sort of a continuation of what they did on Appetite for Destruction but with more keys and bigger production values.  It wasn't anywhere near as huge a stylistic change and then after that...it took, what, 12 years for Chinese Democracy to come out and that was almost more of an Axl Rose solo album at that point.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 07:48:05 AM by kirksnosehair »

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2021, 02:30:50 PM »
The quantity of an artist's works is not reflective of the quality of an artist's works. I know that's not explicitly what you're saying, Elite, so I'm not coming at you bro, but still. It shouldn't matter that he has released 'very little' music over 32 years. Appetite and UYIs are some of the biggest rock albums in rock history 3 decades on. Chinese Democracy still got a firestorm of press 14 years after their last studio record, and launched them into a multiple year-long world tour where they played for 3-4 hours every show in arenas and stadiums. He's released exactly one studio album in the last 27 years, and the band still rakes in buku bucks because their music is just that good to so many people. He spends countless hours in studios, why? Because he has money. Why? Because his music was so popular it made him that much money. That's not anything to sneeze at just because he isn't putting stuff out now. I dunno, that's my perspective on the topic of how often artists release music. Time will tell if they're really considered one of the greats. Buckethead puts out hundreds of albums but I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a handful that are super memorable because of the ways he goes about creating so much music. I know most of the stuff I've heard has been more or less random noodling. I mention him not only because he's a prolific musician but also ex-GnR! :)

It's not for nothing that they toured - and sold out - STADIUMS with not a note of new music outside of a re-release of a pre-first album b-side ("Shadow Of Your Love").   I've seen Slash play three times solo as well, and in my view, they are one of the greats. 

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2021, 03:26:41 PM »
The quantity of an artist's works is not reflective of the quality of an artist's works.

Oh, I definitely agree on this, that's a no-brainer.

I know that's not explicitly what you're saying, Elite, so I'm not coming at you bro, but still. It shouldn't matter that he has released 'very little' music over 32 years.

Well, to be fair, I don't really know what I meant by that comment either. I guess what I would like to see in a musician, or in an artist is that they can keep themselves relevant by changing up things and doing new stuff. Playing the same tunes every day for 30 years in a row, is the opposite of that. That's not to say that what they're doing is not good, or that they're not allowed to, or whatever. People are still paying money to see this band play, and the band still performs. As an artist though, they've basically stopped producing anything meaningful. Again, that's not to say November Rain can't have meaning to you, or that it's not ok to rock out to Welcome to the Jungle, because they're old songs. Sure, go ahead if that's what you want to do. But at this point, Guns and Roses (but also the Rolling Stones, or any band on their 20th Farewell Tour) are more 'entertainers' or 'performers', than 'musicians'. I don't know if that distinction makes any sense, I also don't know whether it's relevant at all and I'm literally typing out what I'm thinking here, so excuse the stream of consciousness style of writing here as I try to figure out why it mattered enough to me to point it out in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree that they aren't musicians. They're literally playing music and are professionals, so they're still musicians. They've always been entertainers and performers. Them not playing new music logically doesn't impact any of those three titles for them. Haha.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2021, 03:50:23 PM »
Again, that's not to say November Rain can't have meaning to you, or that it's not ok to rock out to Welcome to the Jungle, because they're old songs. Sure, go ahead if that's what you want to do. But at this point, Guns and Roses (but also the Rolling Stones, or any band on their 20th Farewell Tour) are more 'entertainers' or 'performers', than 'musicians'. I don't know if that distinction makes any sense, I also don't know whether it's relevant at all and I'm literally typing out what I'm thinking here, so excuse the stream of consciousness style of writing here as I try to figure out why it mattered enough to me to point it out in the first place.

What?  I think this is just a matter of poor word choice because you seem to be saying that, if you're touring but not putting out new music, you're an "entertainer" and a "performer" but not a "musician," and that's just crazy.

Is the third violinist for the Anytown Philharmonic Orchestra not a "musician"?  How about Bob, the bassist in a Heart tribute band.  Is he not a "musician"?  Some folks write and perform music they wrote a long time ago but not anything new.  Some folks are continuing to create and perform new music.  And some always have performed and always will perform music that someone else wrote.  I don't think there's a particular word that distinguishes the second of those groups from the others, but they are, of course, all "entertainers," "performers" and "musicians."
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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2021, 03:53:55 PM »
While they are polar opposites when it comes to quantity, Axl Rose is to music what Nicolas Cage is to acting: both have managed to milk very long careers despite having a tinny tiny amount of high quality work.  They are smarter than the rest of us, clearly.  :lol :lol

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2021, 06:32:38 AM »
Okay, so reading that last post of mine back, there's definitely a case of poor word choice and bad explanation by me, even though I still feel what I intended to say is relevant enough to post here. It's strange that this happens in a GnR-thread, but whatever. This is probably going to turn into a philosophical meta-discussion about what art entails in general, so bear with me.

The word 'musician' was definitely a bad choice in my post above and not at all what I meant. I think the word 'artist', meaning 'someone who (in the present) creates art' would be better there. In order to further get to my point, I think it would be good to get an idea on what I (personally) view as the 'art' in music. The symphony orchestra example above is actually a great place to start. This is a group of musicians, led by a conductor, who will likely perform a piece they have not written themselves. Let's say they're going to play Beethoven's 5th Symphony. A typical orchestra will rehearse for a week (or two) and then perform it once, MAYBE a couple of times and then never revisit it, at least for the time being. Their next programme will feature different music and the rehearsal cycle starts again. There's a certain 'art' in the musicians' craft of people able to play this stuff as a group, but one could also argue that the 'art' is in the performance of the music, and the interpretation of the conductor. The piece, as played at that very moment, by these specific people, will not ever sound the same way again. One could also argue that the 'art' is in the composer's original score, and that this group is simply replicating what Beethoven has written down, but that's a difficult one, because music is fleeting and we could get to the point of 'what is music?' and I'd say since music is experienced by listening, both the performance of this piece and the aural experience of hearing this music played by this group  is the 'art', the 'product' of the Symphony Orchestra.

Most, if not all, of the classical recordings you can hear are actually recorded this way. They’re a direct recording of a live performance. The group can then monetise their art even further by releasing it this way, and in turn making the one-off performance available for everyone who couldn’t attend that particular day, and also for those who were there to revisit it.

This is similar to how a jazz band would record their stuff; they’re playing tunes with the whole group at the same time and the recording engineer just hits record when the band is ready to go and they start playing, complete with spontaneous improvisation the band will never be able to replicate exactly (and that’s also not the point of this music). A jazz recording truly is a snapshot of that one studio session, for two reasons: the band is playing everything live on the spot, and due to the nature of the music (improvisation is a huge part of jazz) it will sound different every time the band would play the same tune live yet again.

So very different this is for Band X, who wrote the hit song 'Sweet Jungle Rain' and recorded it, released it on CD both as a single and on an album. Lots of people had a say in how this track came together and they meticulously recorded each part separately. The end result, their 'product', the one they're going to sell as their 'art' is the recording as you hear it on CD, but it has never actually sounded exactly this way when they played and rehearsed the track. (I know, this is getting really into a meta-discussion now, let’s stop..) When Band X plays ‘Sweet Jungle Rain’ live, their goal is always to make it sound as close to the ‘original’ recording as possible, because that’s what the fans want to hear. Including all solos, drumfills and every little nuance. Maybe add an extra ‘Yeah!’ here and there, but that’s about it. From being artists in the rehearsal space, they’re now performers and entertainers, trying to give the audience the show they want.

Where is the 'art', when you're playing the exact same thing again? There's certainly some amount of craftsmanship needed to do this; Band X needs to be able to play their instruments well, but are they really making 'art'? In the sense of the word that they're creating something new(?). If you haven't guessed yet, I would argue that they don't. Their performance is the art, not the music they're playing, because they've already done that before.

Does it makes sense to make a distinction between a 'musical artist' (the violinist playing a work he's never played before, but also Band X recording 'Sweet Jungle Rain' in the studio) and a 'performing artist' (Band X replicating 'Sweet Jungle Rain' live exactly, but also the violinist)? I don't know if it does, it would certainly make for an interesting discussion. Where does a band that only plays improvised music in a live setting fit in?

I’m not writing any of this to demean anyone, or any band whatsoever. Like my previous post, it flowed more like a stream of consciousness and whether it’s important or not will be determined by whatever responses I get. I hope it sparks some interesting discussion, but I could also understand nobody is waiting for this philosophical nonsense.



Haha.

Indeed! :)
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2021, 06:39:39 AM »
That's a very interesting post, Elite. I'll try to respond in detail later.
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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2021, 07:38:38 AM »
Okay, so reading that last post of mine back, there's definitely a case of poor word choice and bad explanation by me, even though I still feel what I intended to say is relevant enough to post here. It's strange that this happens in a GnR-thread, but whatever. This is probably going to turn into a philosophical meta-discussion about what art entails in general, so bear with me.

The word 'musician' was definitely a bad choice in my post above and not at all what I meant. I think the word 'artist', meaning 'someone who (in the present) creates art' would be better there. In order to further get to my point, I think it would be good to get an idea on what I (personally) view as the 'art' in music. The symphony orchestra example above is actually a great place to start. This is a group of musicians, led by a conductor, who will likely perform a piece they have not written themselves. Let's say they're going to play Beethoven's 5th Symphony. A typical orchestra will rehearse for a week (or two) and then perform it once, MAYBE a couple of times and then never revisit it, at least for the time being. Their next programme will feature different music and the rehearsal cycle starts again. There's a certain 'art' in the musicians' craft of people able to play this stuff as a group, but one could also argue that the 'art' is in the performance of the music, and the interpretation of the conductor. The piece, as played at that very moment, by these specific people, will not ever sound the same way again. One could also argue that the 'art' is in the composer's original score, and that this group is simply replicating what Beethoven has written down, but that's a difficult one, because music is fleeting and we could get to the point of 'what is music?' and I'd say since music is experienced by listening, both the performance of this piece and the aural experience of hearing this music played by this group  is the 'art', the 'product' of the Symphony Orchestra.

Most, if not all, of the classical recordings you can hear are actually recorded this way. They’re a direct recording of a live performance. The group can then monetise their art even further by releasing it this way, and in turn making the one-off performance available for everyone who couldn’t attend that particular day, and also for those who were there to revisit it.

This is similar to how a jazz band would record their stuff; they’re playing tunes with the whole group at the same time and the recording engineer just hits record when the band is ready to go and they start playing, complete with spontaneous improvisation the band will never be able to replicate exactly (and that’s also not the point of this music). A jazz recording truly is a snapshot of that one studio session, for two reasons: the band is playing everything live on the spot, and due to the nature of the music (improvisation is a huge part of jazz) it will sound different every time the band would play the same tune live yet again.

So very different this is for Band X, who wrote the hit song 'Sweet Jungle Rain' and recorded it, released it on CD both as a single and on an album. Lots of people had a say in how this track came together and they meticulously recorded each part separately. The end result, their 'product', the one they're going to sell as their 'art' is the recording as you hear it on CD, but it has never actually sounded exactly this way when they played and rehearsed the track. (I know, this is getting really into a meta-discussion now, let’s stop..) When Band X plays ‘Sweet Jungle Rain’ live, their goal is always to make it sound as close to the ‘original’ recording as possible, because that’s what the fans want to hear. Including all solos, drumfills and every little nuance. Maybe add an extra ‘Yeah!’ here and there, but that’s about it. From being artists in the rehearsal space, they’re now performers and entertainers, trying to give the audience the show they want.

Where is the 'art', when you're playing the exact same thing again? There's certainly some amount of craftsmanship needed to do this; Band X needs to be able to play their instruments well, but are they really making 'art'? In the sense of the word that they're creating something new(?). If you haven't guessed yet, I would argue that they don't. Their performance is the art, not the music they're playing, because they've already done that before.

Does it makes sense to make a distinction between a 'musical artist' (the violinist playing a work he's never played before, but also Band X recording 'Sweet Jungle Rain' in the studio) and a 'performing artist' (Band X replicating 'Sweet Jungle Rain' live exactly, but also the violinist)? I don't know if it does, it would certainly make for an interesting discussion. Where does a band that only plays improvised music in a live setting fit in?

I’m not writing any of this to demean anyone, or any band whatsoever. Like my previous post, it flowed more like a stream of consciousness and whether it’s important or not will be determined by whatever responses I get. I hope it sparks some interesting discussion, but I could also understand nobody is waiting for this philosophical nonsense.




I think I understand what you're trying to say and why you're trying to say it.  I don't disagree with the general premise, but I do have some questions/concerns about where the lines are drawn. 

In your model, is Frank Sinatra, or Elvis Presley, an "artist"?

How about Rush?  (As much as the band continued to produce new material, I've been revisiting the latter day live DVDs, and to a large degree, they began to incorporate a lot more "nostalgia" into the show, and the shows became more of an event than a musical experience).

How about Billy Joel?   (He is, I believe, going on 30 years since a new studio album of original material - 1993) and yet plays something like 50 shows a year, mostly at Madison Square Garden.  He changes up the sets fairly significantly, and incorporates a fair number - given the number of songs he HAS to play - of obscure numbers.  Many of his songs - We Didn't Start The Fire, Goodnight Saigon, even, oddly, Piano Man - have taken on a whole new meaning in the current environment - socially, politically, culturally - than they did back in the day.  He's making new statements with old material in each show.

Counter with Yes or Cheap Trick.  Still a functioning band, still turning out new music, but is that music an artistic statement?  Does that answer change when you realize that their live sets contain little if any of that "new" music, in favor of a more hits based show? 

I think some of this delves too far into trying to guess what the artist intends, and that's where you lose me.   I'm going to cite an example that I've used before:  Def Leppard opening for Kiss in 2014.  I took my daughter to the show, and if memory serves - we can look up on Setlist.fm, but I can't access that from work - neither band played any songs from their then-current albums, and went more with a hits based set.   Particularly with Kiss, there wasn't anything I hadn't seen at least three times.   However, it changed my daughter's life, or at least her trajectory in terms of what she liked and listened to.  To me that's art.  I've also told how Gene's "theatrics" didn't work, and you could tell (both my daughter and some dude I never met next to me said the same thing I experienced) that the band kicked it into a higher gear during the show; the last half or so was as good as I've ever seen Kiss, and I've seen some GREAT Kiss shows in my day.  There was clear emotion in that presentation, and they were not just going through the motions of delivering note-perfect renditions.  To me, that's art.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: What was wrong with "Illusion" albums by Guns?
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2021, 02:01:59 PM »
Well, damn, I think Stadler beat me to my points, with better examples.  :lol
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