Author Topic: Distant Memories - New live release  (Read 93225 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52647
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #735 on: December 01, 2020, 10:26:45 AM »
I have to ask, and this goes to everyone, What does "Reproduce the cd" mean?

To me, Reproducing a cd, is what Babymetal does for their song [urhttps://youtu.be/GAngV880iO4]Megitsune[/url], The intro is a tape then the band plays the song, It sounds kind of weird live doing this song in the middle of the set, but it's still an awesome song. This is what "Reproducing the cd" means to me.
I don't know Babymetal, but "reproducing the CD" means the band plays every song EXACTLY like it is on the CD, not only the arrangement but the tempo and any other backing stuff that would be non-reproducable without backing tracks tied to a click. 

It used to be that they would write and record the CD.  Then they would rehearse before their tour, re-learning how to play stuff, and sometimes there were things on the studio version that would be difficult or impossible to do live, and those things were often sacrificed, and that's OK, because they were performing live, and the live version wasn't the CD version.  But now, the only difference between the two is that they are standing in front of you.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #736 on: December 01, 2020, 10:32:16 AM »

But DT is not alone in this at all. There are bands I've seen for years where the same happens. It can't be helped if you want multimedia all the time. You almost need the click to make it all happen. (Again, non-musician talking here.)


Here's where it got good in the Mangini vid I posted. He said that the Lights, and Video Screens, are all connected and set to the click. Mangini, before the tour begins, works with the production team to set the Click Tracks for the tour, so that the lights and video screens can all be in sync. Now, is it possible to change the tempo of the entire click track of a song on the fly? Does this then, make all the video and lighting sync up to that tempo? Like they play the first show of the tour and find it to be a bit too slow, or too fast, and then change it on the next stop and so on, until it's at a good tempo for the rest of the tour.

Dream Theater shows, now, are productions. They pre-produce, the tour, and decide the setlist, then the lighting, video, stage set-up, to go with that setlist. It's the same thing Iron Maiden does with their Stage Set Up. The only difference is when a "Video Screen" is involved, and how intricate the "Video Production" on that screen is. You can have a video screen that all you have on the screen is "Visualizations" that go along with the music, like Fractals and those kind of things. With the Along For The Ride Tour, they seemed more looser in the click tracks, as the videos weren't that intricate then. But for The Astonishing and Distant Memories, you had really intricate video productions on those screens, and a click track helps with the timing immensely. The high production of The Astonishing tour, was I think a reason why they toned it down for the I&W&B tour and didn't bother with the video screens. When that happened, it opened up a hell of a lot more venues for them to play, as the screens take up a lot of space. Also, they didn't plan for it to grow into a worldwide tour either, hence the small production.

Dream Theater shows back then, weren't produced as high as they are now. I feel, if DT decides not to do a big "Video Production" and just bring them and the lights, like the I&W&B tour, people would enjoy that more as it would then allow them the freedom to not have to be as in sync to a video and lights, which they did do with all the extended intros and outros of the I&W songs, along with throwing in a JM Bass Solo cover.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #737 on: December 01, 2020, 11:02:12 AM »
I have to ask, and this goes to everyone, What does "Reproduce the cd" mean?

To me, Reproducing a cd, is what Babymetal does for their song [urhttps://youtu.be/GAngV880iO4]Megitsune[/url], The intro is a tape then the band plays the song, It sounds kind of weird live doing this song in the middle of the set, but it's still an awesome song. This is what "Reproducing the cd" means to me.
I don't know Babymetal, but "reproducing the CD" means the band plays every song EXACTLY like it is on the CD, not only the arrangement but the tempo and any other backing stuff that would be non-reproducable without backing tracks tied to a click. 

It used to be that they would write and record the CD.  Then they would rehearse before their tour, re-learning how to play stuff, and sometimes there were things on the studio version that would be difficult or impossible to do live, and those things were often sacrificed, and that's OK, because they were performing live, and the live version wasn't the CD version.  But now, the only difference between the two is that they are standing in front of you.

OK, I understand that explanation. It's a reasonable one too. I do not mind that at all, nor do I care either. It then goes to why do you go see a band play live, and why you go to a live show? People have many different reasons for why they do.

But look at it this way too. Less Extended outros, and all that extra stuff, means one more song on the setlist. Bands only have so much time to work with. And that all depends on how the bands/creators want to present the next tour.

I do prefer bands not playing to clicks, actually.

But I was actually surprised MP didn't do the backing vocals at all on Prophets of War live. Those were backing tracks.

I don't know, I just find it interesting, how it's like people can't accept the fact that this is what Dream Theater is now. It is what it is, and you can keep moaning about it, but it's not going to change the bands perspective on it.

I accept that fact, go to the show, and enjoy the music. The reason I went to this one was to see the DoT songs, and what they may play in the set. They then played ANTR and ITPOE pt.1. Two songs, I wanted to hear, and then also, the SFAM set, which was amazing in itself, and when am I going to get the opportunity again to hear them play Through Her Eyes, Finally Free, and One Last Time. When I go to a show, I try and not to expect the songs to be like the album, nor do I expect them to stray from the album, I do not have an pre-conceived notion on how the band will decide to play the songs. First and foremost, I am there to see the band present their songs however they want to present it to the world at the time. I can compare it to the past renditions, but this is how they wanted to present it now, and I decided to go and witness it. I didn't have to, but I did, and I risk it being either a great show or a trainwreck and the band couldn't play worth a damn.

Dream Theater, is musically, fantastic live. But, is suffering in the vocals department, live. As much, as we don't like it, it may end up vastly having an effect on the setlist, if the band were to take JLB's vocal capabilites into consideration, as most of these songs don't suit JLB's voice anymore, or it's harder for JLB to keep the melody or rhythm. But one problem with JLB is his enunciation. But, It's not me who is saying this stuff. I actually enjoy JLB's voice, and don't think he is bad at all on Distant Memories. His vocal style has changed a lot from back in the Budakon days, especially from touring and working with Ayreon and other projects. I think one think that JLB could benefit from is more rest between stops, like maybe doing 2 shows back to back, then resting, then a show, then rest, then 2 back to back. Touring does take a toll, but who am I to say what they should do  :lol

It's also why I love Along For The Ride. "I Believe we're along for the ride."

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline ZirconBlue

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2548
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #738 on: December 01, 2020, 11:09:44 AM »


There is nothing about playing to a click track that requires them to stick to the album tempos or arrangements.  They would just need to update the click track programming to match the new tempo(s) or other changes.  They could even "pause" the click for improv sections, if so desired. 

Offline Peter Mc

  • Posts: 1163
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #739 on: December 01, 2020, 12:25:23 PM »
I saw DT a bunch of times though with Portnoy and never really noticed them doing too much off the cuff, it’s always been pretty much playing the song as it is on the album or occasionally a clearly rehearsed different version of the song like they did with The Killing Hand.  It’s very rare in the later Portnoy years (post Scenes) they played some improvised stuff like Beyond This Life on LAB.
Here are examples that come to mind that happened occasionally (although there may be others that I'm forgetting):
• spontaneous covers tacked on to the end of songs (especially during Touring Into Infinity and the 98 Holiday shows)
• purposefully speeding up and/or slowing down sections of songs (AFiL during M2000, PMU during World Tourbulence)
• the jamming at the end of Take the Time (World Tourbulence, Black Clouds) and Metropolis (Prog Nation 2008, Black Clouds)
• stand alone improvs, as well as improv sections in Beyond This Life and To Live Forever (Train of Thought), and Solitary Shell (Black Clouds)
• the stretched out intros to Scarred (World Tourbulence, Chaos in Motion), Schmedley Wilcox (Chaos in Motion)
• the crazy show in Glasgow in 2000
• one off covers (Escape From the Studio, Train of Thought, 20th Anniversary) - while not spontaneous, these were unexpected by the audience

Is all of that spontaneous though, like throwing in covers such as the Freebird solo at the end of TTT or is that a rehearsed thing. I know, to the audience, it’s unexpected but if it’s planned, they can surely still do that type of thing with a click track if they chose to. They did change up Metropolis a bit on LALP, they changed up SDV on BTFW, there are some subtle differences on the new Blu-ray as well including Mangini’s ill-advised (imo) changes to the end of Finally Free.

I do accept they varied stuff from the studio versions more in the Portnoy era, especially early on.  I’ve seen every tour from FII onwards and did appreciate them throwing in some cool extras but I didn’t get the impression they were things that they just decided off the cuff, they were planned things it seemed to me and they still played most of the stuff as it is on the record.  I can’t point to them speeding up songs as I would not generally have noticed that at the time.
It's not necessarily that all of that was spontaneous.  But now, NOTHING is spontaneous, and CANNOT BE spontaneous.  They literally reproduce the CD.

If you aren't following a click, the performance can move and breathe, with the beat sometimes being sped up or slowed down, depending on a thousand different factors.  That's what makes live performances so wonderful.  I would much rather have those days back again with DT.

And before they went to the click, they had lighting guys manually doing the lighting changes.  They knew the songs, and knew their queues for changes.  They just wanted a bigger production, and decided that this was the way to get it.  It's fine, but it could be better.

Mangini’s drumming on Finally Free is not just reproducing the cd. Jordan’s stuff on the keytar is not just reproducing the cd. Petrucci does some additional guitar stuff on TSCO which is not on the cd.

I do get that the click restricts off the cuff spontaneity, just saying that they weren’t all that spontaneous anyway.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52647
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #740 on: December 01, 2020, 12:53:42 PM »
Mangini’s drumming on Finally Free is not just reproducing the cd. Jordan’s stuff on the keytar is not just reproducing the cd. Petrucci does some additional guitar stuff on TSCO which is not on the cd.
*sighs*

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59163
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #741 on: December 01, 2020, 01:23:08 PM »
I think they sound a bit more mechanical because of Mangini.  Nothing wrong with that,  my favorite drummer is Neil Peart and he is mechanical and precise in his playing like Mangini.  Portnoy had a swing to him, he played a bit looser.   at least, that's my take.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 4455
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #742 on: December 01, 2020, 01:58:35 PM »
Dream Theater shows, now, are productions. They pre-produce, the tour, and decide the setlist, then the lighting, video, stage set-up, to go with that setlist. It's the same thing Iron Maiden does with their Stage Set Up.
You can have production values, but still have it be a full on concert without a click track. That's what Maiden does. OTOH, DT is more of a show or as Cram said, theater now.
 
 
Dream Theater shows back then, weren't produced as high as they are now. I feel, if DT decides not to do a big "Video Production" and just bring them and the lights, like the I&W&B tour, people would enjoy that more as it would then allow them the freedom to not have to be as in sync to a video and lights, which they did do with all the extended intros and outros of the I&W songs, along with throwing in a JM Bass Solo cover.
Except even on that tour (without video to worry about) they *still* used a click track.  :facepalm:
 
 
I do get that the click restricts off the cuff spontaneity, just saying that they weren’t all that spontaneous anyway.
As spontaneous as Frank Zappa, the Grateful Dead or Jordan on his solo tour? No. But they were much more spontaneous than they are now. And there are many of us that miss that part of the band.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12775
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #743 on: December 01, 2020, 02:35:04 PM »
Most of that stuff was worked out in Soundcheck. Now I wonder, does the band do, full band soundchecks? Or is it just Mangini that doesn't soundcheck his drums?

The times I have seen them sound check on recent tours, the instrumentalists come out at different times and check their instruments, and then they may run through some stuff together, but it is generally short.  And then James comes out after and does his sound check for singing. 

I think that, because things are so dialed in by the techs, and they have been evening-with shows on the last few tours without an opener to worry about, they keep the sound checks pretty short.  And the ones I have seen are usually just running through parts of a couple of songs from the set that they want to warm up on.  And I say "generally," because they ran through 137 at sound check at the SF show on the first leg of the d/t tour, which had me thinking it was going to be played.  :lol  (As I recall, Mangini was grooving along, and went into the basic intro drumbeat for a few bars, and then the rest of the band joined in, and they just played it)  And that wasn't the only fakeout during that sound check. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Madman Shepherd

  • Posts: 3707
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #744 on: December 01, 2020, 02:41:58 PM »
I've seen DT...14 times. The first was during the FII tour, the last was the DoT tour in March 2019. And while many of you no doubt have seen them more, I have always felt that the band had more energy with Portnoy.


Funny how different our perspectives are. I've seen DT about as many times as you starting with SFAM and I think almost every show I've seen post-Mangini has been more energetic than every show I saw before him.

Looking at old vids, there's an argument to be made that they've never had as much energy as they had up until Awake but seeing bootlegs, official vids, etc of FII, those performances seemed pretty low energy comparatively. SFAM had it's moments as did every tour after that but overall the band seemed to have less energy.

Sure James isn't sprinting across the stage. JM doesn't flail around. Portnoy isn't around to do that stand up drumming thing but overall they have more energy in the last decade than in the previous decade plus.

Also, in the 14ish times I've seen DT, I've never once seen them just try to recreate the CD. Such a weird argument.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 73836
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #745 on: December 01, 2020, 05:41:33 PM »
I've seen DT...14 times. The first was during the FII tour, the last was the DoT tour in March 2019. And while many of you no doubt have seen them more, I have always felt that the band had more energy with Portnoy. I'm not a musician. I sing, but it has been eons since I've been on stage performing, and even then, it was dive bars. So I don't pretend to know what goes into a production of the magnitude DT puts on.

The click track (which if memory served Portnoy hated to play with, and I think refused [check me on that if not accurate] to play with) really seems to make performances way more sterile. It doesn't mean that ALL bands who use one end up sterile, but it does IMO with Dream Theater because while the performance is great, the nature and complexity of DT's music has the musicians and the fans more paying attention to what's being played rather than vibing off the playing, if that makes sense.

The theater situation doesn't help. My favorite two Dream Theater shows were the 1998 holiday show at Irving Plaza in NYC, and the Feb. 2000 Metropolis PT. 2 show at...I think it was Roseland. Both were GA. Both totally different vibes. But both had an amazing connection between the band and the audience. You FELT the connection (I sure did on the latter, I got swept up during "Home" by the pit and ended up on the other side of the venue). Those were just intense feelings.

With Mangini, I have been told the band now uses click tracks all the time, and only are in theaters so there are seats. And while the old fogey that I have become enjoys the seats, and the performances are really tight, and its a great "show," it's very different experience. Not worse, but certainly not the same vibe that I had from the band in the shows I saw from 1998-2010 (or whenever MP left).

But DT is not alone in this at all. There are bands I've seen for years where the same happens. It can't be helped if you want multimedia all the time. You almost need the click to make it all happen. (Again, non-musician talking here.)

Sam, I totally understand. Unfortunately the energy of those early club shows can be tough to replicate this far in their career, especially in the seated venues.

But I just posted the following in the Holiday Spirit Carries On Thread...

A lot of conversation on DTF revolves around with MP and without MP.

Playing to a click track....I don't care. They blow my mind playing their instruments live.
Personally I think the improvisations are a bit too romanticized...

Beyond This Life '04. Yawn.

Surrounded '07? The intro was nice, but why would I ever care to hear some lame Marillion song tacked onto the end.

Solitary Shell '09? Puleeze. Trying a it too hard. Play another damn song instead.

MM is easily as engaging with his bandmates and with the crowd as MP ever was. So I never understand the criticisms of their live show, other than the canned backing vocals.




But what IS MISSING are the little extras like The Holiday Spirit Carries ON. I thought they knocked it out with the Happy Holidays 2013 CD, but it's been fucking crickets since then as far as anything extra.

Every band releases really good albums and plays really good concerts. What made MP Era DT different were the little extras that made the fan feel special.

This track is a really nice and welcomed surprise.


Meaning I feel like the (as you and many others have mentioned) "sterile" live shows are really just an allegory for the sterilization of the band in general. It's basically album/tour/break/album/tour/break, and while that's not much different than it was before, gone are the Fan Clubs gifts, the Ytsejam Boots, etc..

Every band makes albums and tour. Now of course JP, JR, MM, and James have great personalities and their interviews are generally fun and good natured, but it just feels like it's all about product.


They have made some great albums post MP, and I totally appreciate the undertaking that is The Astonishing, but there's just nothing going on on the sidelines.

There was a thread this summer where the Spotify CEO mentioned that bands have to stay engaged with their fans. MP really understood this. Unfortunately it didn't rub off on JP (maybe it's not fair to lay it at JP's feet, but it feels like he's running the show now...).
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #746 on: December 01, 2020, 05:42:29 PM »
And I say "generally," because they ran through 137 at sound check at the SF show on the first leg of the d/t tour, which had me thinking it was going to be played.  :lol  (As I recall, Mangini was grooving along, and went into the basic intro drumbeat for a few bars, and then the rest of the band joined in, and they just played it)  And that wasn't the only fakeout during that sound check.

They toy with you  :lol would be so cool to just see the band jamming or playing without people watching so you see them being more natural and organic.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #747 on: December 01, 2020, 06:06:12 PM »
Dream Theater shows, now, are productions. They pre-produce, the tour, and decide the setlist, then the lighting, video, stage set-up, to go with that setlist. It's the same thing Iron Maiden does with their Stage Set Up.
You can have production values, but still have it be a full on concert without a click track. That's what Maiden does. OTOH, DT is more of a show or as Cram said, theater now.

But they don't have video.


 
Dream Theater shows back then, weren't produced as high as they are now. I feel, if DT decides not to do a big "Video Production" and just bring them and the lights, like the I&W&B tour, people would enjoy that more as it would then allow them the freedom to not have to be as in sync to a video and lights, which they did do with all the extended intros and outros of the I&W songs, along with throwing in a JM Bass Solo cover.
Except even on that tour (without video to worry about) they *still* used a click track.  :facepalm:
 

I did not say Dream Theater are not using click tracks on that tour. I said those click tracks are not in sync to a video, and one less thing to worry about, and it's a lot easier to turn off the Click, and play with the lights manually.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12775
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #748 on: December 01, 2020, 06:08:14 PM »
And I say "generally," because they ran through 137 at sound check at the SF show on the first leg of the d/t tour, which had me thinking it was going to be played.  :lol  (As I recall, Mangini was grooving along, and went into the basic intro drumbeat for a few bars, and then the rest of the band joined in, and they just played it)  And that wasn't the only fakeout during that sound check.

They toy with you  :lol

:lol  I don't think either thing was intentional.  The way the 137 jam unfolded, it just kinda happened.  The other "fakeout" was the video guy messing with some things onscreen, and at one point, he had Octavarium artwork up there.  So I assumed from that that it was something they were going to use for the show, which led me to believe there would be an Octavarium song in the set.  (it was very early in the tour, and I had avoided reading about the set list prior to my show) 

Dream Theater shows, now, are productions. They pre-produce, the tour, and decide the setlist, then the lighting, video, stage set-up, to go with that setlist. It's the same thing Iron Maiden does with their Stage Set Up.
You can have production values, but still have it be a full on concert without a click track. That's what Maiden does. OTOH, DT is more of a show or as Cram said, theater now.

But they don't have video.


 
Dream Theater shows back then, weren't produced as high as they are now. I feel, if DT decides not to do a big "Video Production" and just bring them and the lights, like the I&W&B tour, people would enjoy that more as it would then allow them the freedom to not have to be as in sync to a video and lights, which they did do with all the extended intros and outros of the I&W songs, along with throwing in a JM Bass Solo cover.
Except even on that tour (without video to worry about) they *still* used a click track.  :facepalm:
 

I did not say Dream Theater are not using click tracks on that tour. I said those click tracks are not in sync to a video, and one less thing to worry about, and it's a lot easier to turn off the Click, and play with the lights manually.

It's not just the video and lights.  It's that AND the backing track. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #749 on: December 01, 2020, 06:19:24 PM »
And I say "generally," because they ran through 137 at sound check at the SF show on the first leg of the d/t tour, which had me thinking it was going to be played.  :lol  (As I recall, Mangini was grooving along, and went into the basic intro drumbeat for a few bars, and then the rest of the band joined in, and they just played it)  And that wasn't the only fakeout during that sound check.

They toy with you  :lol

:lol  I don't think either thing was intentional.  The way the 137 jam unfolded, it just kinda happened.  The other "fakeout" was the video guy messing with some things onscreen, and at one point, he had Octavarium artwork up there.  So I assumed from that that it was something they were going to use for the show, which led me to believe there would be an Octavarium song in the set.  (it was very early in the tour, and I had avoided reading about the set list prior to my show) 

Dream Theater shows, now, are productions. They pre-produce, the tour, and decide the setlist, then the lighting, video, stage set-up, to go with that setlist. It's the same thing Iron Maiden does with their Stage Set Up.
You can have production values, but still have it be a full on concert without a click track. That's what Maiden does. OTOH, DT is more of a show or as Cram said, theater now.

But they don't have video.


 
Dream Theater shows back then, weren't produced as high as they are now. I feel, if DT decides not to do a big "Video Production" and just bring them and the lights, like the I&W&B tour, people would enjoy that more as it would then allow them the freedom to not have to be as in sync to a video and lights, which they did do with all the extended intros and outros of the I&W songs, along with throwing in a JM Bass Solo cover.
Except even on that tour (without video to worry about) they *still* used a click track.  :facepalm:
 

I did not say Dream Theater are not using click tracks on that tour. I said those click tracks are not in sync to a video, and one less thing to worry about, and it's a lot easier to turn off the Click, and play with the lights manually.

It's not just the video and lights.  It's that AND the backing track.

I know that, I posted that video.  :biggrin:

But I don't know what you guys are trying to argue with me...

I pointed out exactly why Dream Theater, is using them, with Mangini's videos. He told us all straight up, why they use them.

I am not upset that the band is using them. It's not a big deal as many of you are making it out to be.

I don't want it to happen, but I am interested in seeing what the band would do if the entire click track system ended up failing, or more know what their backup is, incase something were to occur like that.

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline Setlist Scotty

  • Posts: 4455
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #750 on: December 01, 2020, 06:33:39 PM »
Meaning I feel like the (as you and many others have mentioned) "sterile" live shows are really just an allegory for the sterilization of the band in general. It's basically album/tour/break/album/tour/break, and while that's not much different than it was before, gone are the Fan Clubs gifts, the Ytsejam Boots, etc..
Don't forget the rotating setlists!  ;)
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 73836
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #751 on: December 01, 2020, 06:41:18 PM »
Meaning I feel like the (as you and many others have mentioned) "sterile" live shows are really just an allegory for the sterilization of the band in general. It's basically album/tour/break/album/tour/break, and while that's not much different than it was before, gone are the Fan Clubs gifts, the Ytsejam Boots, etc..
Don't forget the rotating setlists!  ;)

I was going to mention that, along with the collecting of bootlegs, but I didn't want to make my post any wordier than it was already. The greatest thing about the rotating setlists was collecting boots, and hearing all of the different songs in a tour's master list. It was engaging.
Like signing into MP.Com each morning to see what they played the night before, like checking your favorite team's scores.

I was lucky seeing shows in Boston, because other than Gigantour, we generally got really good setlists. So I can't complain. But we all know that all setlists were not created equal.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #752 on: December 01, 2020, 06:52:30 PM »
Meaning I feel like the (as you and many others have mentioned) "sterile" live shows are really just an allegory for the sterilization of the band in general. It's basically album/tour/break/album/tour/break, and while that's not much different than it was before, gone are the Fan Clubs gifts, the Ytsejam Boots, etc..
Don't forget the rotating setlists!  ;)

I was going to mention that, along with the collecting of bootlegs, but I didn't want to make my post any wordier than it was already. The greatest thing about the rotating setlists was collecting boots, and hearing all of the different songs in a tour's master list. It was engaging.
Like signing into MP.Com each morning to see what they played the night before, like checking your favorite team's scores.

I was lucky seeing shows in Boston, because other than Gigantour, we generally got really good setlists. So I can't complain. But we all know that all setlists were not created equal.

I don't know how many times I have heard Pull Me Under, live. Along with panic attack. Out of the shows I saw, locally, these were the setlists.

July 30th, 2005
June 16th 2010

I didn't see these ones, as I didn't become a big Dream Theater fan yet, and was barely starting my concert experience:
August 14th, 2002
September 13th, 2004 (I really wish I went to this one. My god what a set)

These are just the MP sets. I also saw them 2 times in Denver, 1 in Irving TX , and 1 in Mesa AZ, but these are MM sets. Out of those 4 I saw Pull Me Under, twice.

So I haven't really had a vast set difference, at all. Compared to the shows you guys get on the east coast.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #753 on: December 01, 2020, 06:59:55 PM »
Yea, here on the east coast we'd get a couple shows and they'd be different sets. Back to back nights in NYC from the 2008 tour were two totally different sets in a GA venue with surprises which differed slightly from the first DT show I saw in 2007 but on the same Systematic Chaos tour.

But I don't know what you guys are trying to argue with me...

Not arguing at all, just sharing my opinion on what I wish the band would do.  There's merits to the click and I know why they choose to use it.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #754 on: December 01, 2020, 07:27:03 PM »
Yea, here on the east coast we'd get a couple shows and they'd be different sets. Back to back nights in NYC from the 2008 tour were two totally different sets in a GA venue with surprises which differed slightly from the first DT show I saw in 2007 but on the same Systematic Chaos tour.

But I don't know what you guys are trying to argue with me...

Not arguing at all, just sharing my opinion on what I wish the band would do.  There's merits to the click and I know why they choose to use it.

 :tup :tup

I guess I am just Jelly of you guys and all the great shows available to you all.  :lol


I kind of wish the band would go back to no click too, but not enough to not make me want to see the band live.

What I do really wish and hope the band should do this next tour, and is much needed, and possibly could be agreed by Many of us, is making the setlist an open set. Meaning, any song is open to being included. No Themes, No Anniversary sets, No covers (well, maybe), and No Pull Me Under (Unless, it's in a place they have never been, every place deserves that song at least once).

If they announce the new tour will include a set like this, and a rotating A,B,C sets like the ADTOE tour. I would do my best to not see the sets, and possibly see the many shows of those sets, if they don't rotate them in some odd pattern just for fun (like A,B,A,C,B,C,C,A,B)

I tried my best to go into the D/T tour without seeing the set, but caved the night before. I was kind of buzzed then as well when I saw it. But I just got more hyped, as it was the next day anyways. I actually forgot the order when I got to the venue. You should've seen my face though when I saw Pull Me Under as the encore (It looked like that Shrek Meme). Which is why I went to Mesa last year, just to see At Wit's End.  :lol

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man
Follow my Spotify:BjamminD

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34129
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #755 on: December 01, 2020, 07:34:48 PM »
I'm really curious how bands will be even able to tour in the future, if things open back up like the old days then there's going to be a lot of bands touring and competing in some ways.  So many bands have done things like play live streams of really old or rare tunes to engage their audiences.  DT so far have not, but it would be cool if they announced a tour around performing different sets each night.  Even if they only played songs MM has already performed live, there's a lot of songs to choose from. 

Offline The Curious Orange

  • Lord of the Night
  • Posts: 1443
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #756 on: December 02, 2020, 02:55:14 AM »
I watched the DVD last night. Can't quite believe it was only February this year I went to those shows, seems a lifetime ago.

There's a close up of a guy in the audience, some hideous, fat, bald ugly bastard. You know the one, the one who looks like he's been taken there by the Make-a-Wish people, the one you all looked at and laughed and thought "Ha ha ha! look at that poor fat ugly sod!"

So I saw him, and thought "Ha ha ha! look at that poor fat ugly sod!"

Then I thought "He's wearing the same shirt I was wearing..."






Then the penny dropped...



So yes, it's rendered the entire DVD unwatchable for me.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 03:08:11 AM by The Curious Orange »
"And if love remains, though everything is lost,
We will pay the price, but we will not count the cost..."

Offline Zydar

  • Creep With Tonality
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19193
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #757 on: December 02, 2020, 03:03:11 AM »
Wow :lol
Zydar is my new hero.  I just laughed so hard I nearly shat.

Offline erwinrafael

  • Posts: 3436
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #758 on: December 02, 2020, 03:45:38 AM »
I made a Spotify playlist of the Mangini-era DT songs that have live releases (basically only from BTFW and DM, LALP is not available on Spotify), alternated them, and actually ended up with a nice concert.  :biggrin:

Dream Theater NOW

The Enemy Inside (BTFW)
Untethered Angel (DM)
On The Backs Of Angels (BTFW)
Paralyzed (DM)
The Looking Glass (BTFW)
Fall Into The Light (DM)
Enigma Machine (BTFW)
Barstool Warrior (DM)
Along For The Ride (BTFW)
Pal Blue Dot (DM)
Breaking All Illusions (BTFW)
At Wit's End (DM)
Illumination Theory (BTFW)

1 hour 48 minutes. Good enough for a concert with a front act.  :metal

Offline IgnotusPerIgnotium

  • Posts: 138
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #759 on: December 02, 2020, 03:57:30 AM »
Quote
As spontaneous as Frank Zappa, the Grateful Dead or Jordan on his solo tour? No. But they were much more spontaneous than they are now. And there are many of us that miss that part of the band.
I feel the same way, the only thing that turns me off to seeing them live  is basically this. Why should I watch the show, when youtube is filled with videos and performances of the same playlist..not to mention that is the main reason that I won't purchase Distant Memories..they just don't give me enough reasons to buy it, as much I want to support these guys..

Online ReaperKK

  • Sweeter After Difficulty
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17688
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #760 on: December 02, 2020, 06:04:49 AM »
By making a show run through a tool like ProTools, the benefit is everything is already pre programmed - there is no need to worry about pressing the right button to trigger whatever video or backing track or whatever - and when you're doing 100 shows a year this is removal of one potential headache. They want to deliver a specific show.
This is my only misgiving about post-Portnoy DT.

They don't do 100 shows.  They do 1 show 100 times.  There is no difference from night to night, it's all the same.  No unique performances, no extended solos, no live magic.  The show I get in Raleigh is EXACTLY the show that people get in NYC or Chicago, down to to the runtime. 

Still very impressive, and I love to see it, but I would much prefer to see them ditch the backing tracks and click. 

100% agree

Online ReaperKK

  • Sweeter After Difficulty
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17688
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #761 on: December 02, 2020, 06:11:55 AM »
By making a show run through a tool like ProTools, the benefit is everything is already pre programmed - there is no need to worry about pressing the right button to trigger whatever video or backing track or whatever - and when you're doing 100 shows a year this is removal of one potential headache. They want to deliver a specific show.
The problem is, the band become slaves to the machines, instead of the other way around, which is not what a live concert is about. A live concert is about being in the moment - performing in front of an audience in real time. If they feel it's necessary to use a crutch like taped backing vocals, then at least be willing to trigger them as if they were being performed live.

Why argue this issue in the first place? Because by sticking to the click, their performances are more wooden or rigid, which again is not what live performance is all about. I think what Neil Peart said regarding the issue sums it up quite nicely:
Quote
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.

I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."

On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.

If only JP would follow his WWRD mantra here...

Danny Carey from Tool has the exact same sentiment and you can tell when you go to there shows they are playing to a click. They feed off the energy of the show and some songs are sped up but fit perfectly in the moment.

Offline the_silent_man

  • Posts: 201
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #762 on: December 02, 2020, 07:59:28 AM »
Watched this the other day. Great performances, and overall enjoyed a lot.

However, (for the first time?), there were no surprises at ALL that I can think of. No drum/guitar/keyboard solos, no extended instrumentals, not a great deal of crowd interaction. And the so called "behind the scenes" was extremely disappointing - it was more like an extended trailer than anything that offered any behind the scenes info.

This was a bit of shame as I saw the Images and Words & Beyond tour and I thought they were starting to bring this stuff back more.
You had the funny stories from the album, the bass solo cover, the enter sandman surprise snippet, Liquid tension cover, extended intros/outros, rare songs. It was really brilliant in this regard.

It also felt a bit rushed at times between songs with no room to breathe. Most noticable was after Finally Free it IMMEDIATELY goes to the encore At Wit's End. I would have liked a bit of crowd feedback etc here to get that live feeling/anticipation of the encore.


Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13285
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #763 on: December 02, 2020, 08:10:25 AM »
This was a bit of shame as I saw the Images and Words & Beyond tour and I thought they were starting to bring this stuff back more.
You had the funny stories from the album, the bass solo cover, the enter sandman surprise snippet, Liquid tension cover, extended intros/outros, rare songs. It was really brilliant in this regard.

I agree, I have to say that that tour was the perfect blend between their current preferences for the live show (big production and click track) and the spontaneity / fun side of a more loose performance.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline Architeuthis

  • Posts: 3758
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #764 on: December 02, 2020, 08:49:02 AM »
Man, this discussion got really clickie.   I wonder what Richard Chycki would have to say?
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast, you can make the most of the distance, first you need endurance first you've got to last....... NP

Offline kirksnosehair

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 8521
  • Gender: Male
  • Bryce & Kylie's Grandpa
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #765 on: December 02, 2020, 01:13:23 PM »
 :lol   that's a heavy lift

Offline Herrick

  • Posts: 1965
  • Gender: Male
  • Hello Mangs
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #766 on: December 02, 2020, 05:16:02 PM »
By making a show run through a tool like ProTools, the benefit is everything is already pre programmed - there is no need to worry about pressing the right button to trigger whatever video or backing track or whatever - and when you're doing 100 shows a year this is removal of one potential headache. They want to deliver a specific show.
The problem is, the band become slaves to the machines, instead of the other way around, which is not what a live concert is about. A live concert is about being in the moment - performing in front of an audience in real time. If they feel it's necessary to use a crutch like taped backing vocals, then at least be willing to trigger them as if they were being performed live.

Why argue this issue in the first place? Because by sticking to the click, their performances are more wooden or rigid, which again is not what live performance is all about. I think what Neil Peart said regarding the issue sums it up quite nicely:
Quote
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.

I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."

On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.

If only JP would follow his WWRD mantra here...

Danny Carey from Tool has the exact same sentiment and you can tell when you go to there shows they are playing to a click. They feed off the energy of the show and some songs are sped up but fit perfectly in the moment.

Did you mean to say Tool does not play to a click track?
DISPLAY thy Breasts, My Julia!

Offline nobloodyname

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #767 on: December 03, 2020, 12:04:01 AM »
I watched the DVD last night. Can't quite believe it was only February this year I went to those shows, seems a lifetime ago.

There's a close up of a guy in the audience, some hideous, fat, bald ugly bastard. You know the one, the one who looks like he's been taken there by the Make-a-Wish people, the one you all looked at and laughed and thought "Ha ha ha! look at that poor fat ugly sod!"

So I saw him, and thought "Ha ha ha! look at that poor fat ugly sod!"

Then I thought "He's wearing the same shirt I was wearing..."






Then the penny dropped...



So yes, it's rendered the entire DVD unwatchable for me.

That's brilliant. I laughed, sorry :lol

I've heard from a couple of people that I'm obviously recognisable at one point but given that we're only watching a couple of songs at a time, I might not get to see before Christmas! Spied us a few times already, though, after three songs (was in the second row both nights, stage left then right).
Paul
Gamer, rocker, humanist, womble
Leicestershire, UK
Getting right out of my comfort zone: www.youtube.com/@paulplayspoorly Go on, you can do it, too!

Offline Lax

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #768 on: December 03, 2020, 12:52:45 AM »
The click track is still a good solution to avoid f*cking up :D
Apparently there are many things happening remotely and linked to the click track and automations, like background stuff and even JP sound changes !
In the end, isn't it just being modern musician ? :)

I don't really regret the full click track thing, as a musician I love my music TIGHT and they are live.
It may lack a little improv or jam here and there, but it's a detail.

Basically that's exactly what Muse did, and the shows are way less crazy. But main difference being I don't enjoy their latest albums...
EBMM JP12 Cherry Sugar + JP7 Pearl Redburst
Axe FX 2 XL+ & MFC101 MK3 & Roland EV5
Boss WL-50, Morpheus droptune, G-Lab Wowee Wah, 2x Yamaha HS7, Sennheiser HD25 SP2 & Jamhub Bedroom
https://www.facebook.com/Laxthestampede/

Offline PixelDream

  • Posts: 2886
  • Gender: Male
  • Maestro
Re: Distant Memories - New live release
« Reply #769 on: December 03, 2020, 01:14:43 AM »
By making a show run through a tool like ProTools, the benefit is everything is already pre programmed - there is no need to worry about pressing the right button to trigger whatever video or backing track or whatever - and when you're doing 100 shows a year this is removal of one potential headache. They want to deliver a specific show.
The problem is, the band become slaves to the machines, instead of the other way around, which is not what a live concert is about. A live concert is about being in the moment - performing in front of an audience in real time. If they feel it's necessary to use a crutch like taped backing vocals, then at least be willing to trigger them as if they were being performed live.

Why argue this issue in the first place? Because by sticking to the click, their performances are more wooden or rigid, which again is not what live performance is all about. I think what Neil Peart said regarding the issue sums it up quite nicely:
Quote
Until the Clockwork Angels tour I had never used a click track live, except once years ago to stay in sync with a rear-screen film. For this tour it was helpful because we had eight string players in the Clockwork Angels String Ensemble, and they sometimes needed it when I wasn't playing. Even in certain passages when I was playing, it helped us all to stay together.

I was also required to stay in tempo with some long, legato sequences of keyboard or vocal effects, and the tambo-click helped with that, too. Even so, I am glad to say that the click appears in only a tiny percentage of the show, and only when absolutely necessary - or at least, "absolutely helpful."

On most songs, I prefer to hold it together myself, and let the band be a living, breathing organism that can push and pull naturally. These days many bands perform to a preprogrammed basic track, often a computerized software program. We always resisted that rigidity.

If only JP would follow his WWRD mantra here...

Danny Carey from Tool has the exact same sentiment and you can tell when you go to there shows they are playing to a click. They feed off the energy of the show and some songs are sped up but fit perfectly in the moment.

Did you mean to say Tool does not play to a click track?

No, not even on studio albums.

I don't have anything against bands using click live, also depends on the type of music. However, I'm a sucker for a performance like LSFNY, just raw power and organic energy-driven tempo. It feels right.
Not 'Down To F***', but 'Dream Theater Forums' .