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Distant Memories - New live release

Started by T-ski, September 23, 2020, 08:44:51 AM

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Ben_Jamin

Quote from: Architeuthis on November 08, 2020, 05:03:14 AM
It seems like JLB is overcompensating with his approach to singing these songs. It just made the video feel awkward. I'll  definitely  buy the blu-ray, but it seems that James has morphed into a different version of himself. He's  always been one of my all time favorite singers and still is, but his performance in this version of fatal tragedy seems forced and has me a bit worried.   ???
I don't  blame it on age. Roger Daltry, Jon Anderson, and Bruce Dickinson are still killing it..

They also didn't have their vocal capabilities compromised by a food poisoning incident. That terribly screwed up LaBries entire voice, where he had to learn a different technique to sing with his current capabilities. Train of Thought era, is where he really got a good comfort spot with his vocals.


Ben_Jamin

Quote from: jingle.boy on November 08, 2020, 05:48:48 AM
Quote from: DarkLord_Lalinc on November 07, 2020, 06:24:04 PM
Man, I don't care at all if they overdubbed or pitch-corrected any of JLB's lines. The last couple of times I've seen him live he has kicked ass and that's good enough for me, and nowadays he sounds as good as a 50+ year old JLB can possibly sound like. I'm tired of the "fire JLB now/awesome musicianship and horrible vocals lol" because people don't seem to see the bigger picture. The day JLB leaves is the day DT ends and I'm willing to argue with anyone on that subject if it came to that lol. Luckily, that's never going to happen.

Also, his "Live at the Marquee" '92 performance was entirely rerecorded and that doesn't make him any less of a singer. The thing is, I feel, that he put the bar so up high during his prime that no one can live up to that expectation, not even JLB himself. YouTube videos documenting concerts are something super common now, and people can basically go and nitpick any little detail and mishap to their hearts' content if it pleases them to do so, so I don't care if they went an extra mile in making sure the "official" Blu-Ray presentation is as polished as possible.

This is exactly where I'm at.  I'm still unsure about getting this, because the 'live' feel simply isn't there due to the audience being so subdued.  Granted, I watch live DVDs for the on-stage experience, but there are elements of the crowd vibe that plays an important part.  I mean, just thinking about some of the crowd shots from L@B or Score make me yearn for that kind of experience here.  This is like watching bingo hour at an old-age home.

Redemptions Alive in Color, has this problem too. Nightwishs Decades does as well.

Ben_Jamin

Quote from: Pettor on November 08, 2020, 10:06:26 AM
I always thought LaBrie must feel agony for every release. Whatever he do there will be critisism against him. It's too processed or overdubbed, but if he don't it sounds awful and out of tune. Ofc comparison videos showing every mistake and overdub etc. At the same time fans want perfection from them. Solo should be perfect but emotional and spontaneous.

I know this is the thing with DT and the fans. Nothing wrong with expression it as well. Every release it's the same procedure but it must be hard for DT to do it all right, even trying to understand what the hell that is.

You should see the Misha Mansoor and Herman Li twitch video. Misha was asking Herman, and learning, what he should do for his Twitch channel. Herman mentioned, don't pay attention to the comments. As they were going to begin playing a song together, Misha told Herman, this one says i'm too low, this one says I'm to high, this one says...and Herman looks at him, and gives him a funny look of "Really, just ignore them" and then said, "What we hear, in here is right."...I laughed so hard, as that is how it exactly is...

You got people suggesting this and that, Complaining of this and that, and those Praising the this and that.

noxon

They recorded two shows, and they've picked from the best of both nights to make up the best possible release. And if need be they can also pull from all the other shows they did on the tour as they keep all the recordings of all the shows in an archive. So it's not strictly speaking an overdub, more likely it's a pull from another show.

noxon

Quote from: Adami on November 06, 2020, 03:55:55 PM
Quote from: noxon on November 06, 2020, 02:50:32 PM
I'd rather have a live recording that sounds a bit sterile than a live recording with looping canned audiences...

I'd rather have a live recording that sounds a bit sterile than being kicked in the balls and robbed. I'm not sure why that matters though?

But; I've never been kicked in the balls and robbed, but I DO have several DT live albums that used canned audiences to push up the "liveness" of the album. It becomes super apparent when you notice the same woman shouting in an extremely regular interval...

Setlist Scotty

Quote from: noxon on November 08, 2020, 02:11:51 PM
They recorded two shows, and they've picked from the best of both nights to make up the best possible release. And if need be they can also pull from all the other shows they did on the tour as they keep all the recordings of all the shows in an archive. So it's not strictly speaking an overdub, more likely it's a pull from another show.
Any idea if this was done Kim? IMO, it would give more credibility to it being live than if they did re-recording or pitch adjustments in the studio. Altho I also imagine it would be difficult to get the audio to sync up correctly with the video if JL's on screen when they did the swap.


Quote from: noxon on November 08, 2020, 02:13:59 PM
Quote from: Adami on November 06, 2020, 03:55:55 PM
Quote from: noxon on November 06, 2020, 02:50:32 PM
I'd rather have a live recording that sounds a bit sterile than a live recording with looping canned audiences...
I'd rather have a live recording that sounds a bit sterile than being kicked in the balls and robbed. I'm not sure why that matters though?
But; I've never been kicked in the balls and robbed, but I DO have several DT live albums that used canned audiences to push up the "liveness" of the album. It becomes super apparent when you notice the same woman shouting in an extremely regular interval...
I'm with you - the canned audience loops, IMO take away from it being live. After all, you could take a studio or soundcheck recording and slap some phony audience on it, which is what some other bands have done on some of their "live" releases.

TAC

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 08, 2020, 02:24:20 PM
Quote from: noxon on November 08, 2020, 02:11:51 PM
They recorded two shows, and they've picked from the best of both nights to make up the best possible release. And if need be they can also pull from all the other shows they did on the tour as they keep all the recordings of all the shows in an archive. So it's not strictly speaking an overdub, more likely it's a pull from another show.
Any idea if this was done Kim? IMO, it would give more credibility to it being live than if they did re-recording or pitch adjustments in the studio. Altho I also imagine it would be difficult to get the audio to sync up correctly with the video if JL's on screen when they did the swap.


They could just cut to another camera for whatever line they were substituting, no?

cramx3

I'm not sure anyone would prefer a fake audience noise but just a real, livelier one. And if you have no audience, then making changes to the audio, live overdubs or whatever, becomes more apparent. I just wish DT had a more lively show overall is my honest opinion of the band. Also, definitely love JLB and his live performances from my own experiences.
Quote from: Ben_Jamin on November 08, 2020, 12:56:40 PM
Redemptions Alive in Color, has this problem too. Nightwishs Decades does as well.
Yea, Redemptoins, I didn't expect to be crazy, I mean we had fun being there but I didn't remember it being wild.. at least the crowd was standing. The audio on that is really good IMO and picture quality is great. So far, I think that maybe a better live album than this.

Nightwishs was a bit disappointing with the crowd considering the location, and also was a bit dark, but that performance and set is so good, thats a fantastic live release IMO. Great for CD because it has new versions of lots of old songs and sounds pretty good.

Evai

Quote from: TAC on November 08, 2020, 02:30:13 PM
They could just cut to another camera for whatever line they were substituting, no?

^Yeah that's why you see so many cuts to the drummer during guitar solos on modern live DVD's  :lol

TAC

Quote from: Evai on November 08, 2020, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: TAC on November 08, 2020, 02:30:13 PM
They could just cut to another camera for whatever line they were substituting, no?

^Yeah that's why you see so many cuts to the drummer during guitar solos on modern live DVD's  :lol

Hah!

fischermasamune

Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 08, 2020, 12:12:25 PM
For the life of me I don't know why they chose to shoot the video that far into the tour where JLB has put a ton of hours on his voice. You would think that he would want to shoot the video earlier in the tour where his voice would be much fresher. At the Chicago and St. Louis shows the whole band was on fire. Rush would do the exact same thing and I could never understand why.

I think it's a matter of rehearsal and marketing.

The rehearsal part is obvious. The longer the tour goes, the better trained they are on the performance - even if JLB's voice can reflect their tiredness.

Marketing: recording one of the last ones generate attention to the shows when there are fewer novelties on it, and would theoretically be the last interesting. Imagine a tour where the first concert is the recorded one, and that it is a public fact that it'll be eventually released - doesn't it get harder to promote the other shows?

Weymolith

Quote from: noxon on November 08, 2020, 02:13:59 PM

But; I've never been kicked in the balls and robbed, but I DO have several DT live albums that used canned audiences to push up the "liveness" of the album. It becomes super apparent when you notice the same woman shouting in an extremely regular interval...

Her name is Trisha. She's a staple of live records (see Wilhelm Scream) I believe she also does ADR for adult features.


ReaperKK

Quote from: noxon on November 08, 2020, 02:11:51 PM
They recorded two shows, and they've picked from the best of both nights to make up the best possible release. And if need be they can also pull from all the other shows they did on the tour as they keep all the recordings of all the shows in an archive. So it's not strictly speaking an overdub, more likely it's a pull from another show.

They did the same thing for Pink Floyd's PULSE VHS/DVD. If you want to see what the uncut unedited concert was like there is a youtube video of the whole show as it streamed on PPV.

cramx3

Quote from: fischermasamune on November 08, 2020, 08:43:08 PM
Quote from: hunnus2000 on November 08, 2020, 12:12:25 PM
For the life of me I don't know why they chose to shoot the video that far into the tour where JLB has put a ton of hours on his voice. You would think that he would want to shoot the video earlier in the tour where his voice would be much fresher. At the Chicago and St. Louis shows the whole band was on fire. Rush would do the exact same thing and I could never understand why.

I think it's a matter of rehearsal and marketing.

The rehearsal part is obvious. The longer the tour goes, the better trained they are on the performance - even if JLB's voice can reflect their tiredness.

Marketing: recording one of the last ones generate attention to the shows when there are fewer novelties on it, and would theoretically be the last interesting. Imagine a tour where the first concert is the recorded one, and that it is a public fact that it'll be eventually released - doesn't it get harder to promote the other shows?

From my experience, the first and last shows of a tour are already the most interesting, first because you don't know the set and last because the bands are always much more loose on that last show and often times will do something different or add in some sort of surprise.  I think recording a show would work fine mid tour and work the worst on opening night.  Doing it at the end is fine IMO, but you might get a tired singer.

bosk1

Quote from: Zydar on November 06, 2020, 10:45:49 AMI still haven't figured out if JP is actually doing backup vocals or not. Looks like he mimes.

A couple of things on that:

1.  JP denies lip synching and says he sings every backup vocal, but intentionally keeps his backups low in the mix because he doesn't really like the way he sounds, and does the backups both for the visual and for just adding a bit of different texture.  At least, that's what he said back on the DT12 tour.  I haven't spoken with him about it or heard him comment since then.

2.  Whether or not #1 is 100% true 100% of the time, from my experiences with the band, I can vouch for it to an extent.  On the DT12 tour, I was close enough to JP to hear him singing (probably about 5 feet from him).  I have also heard them sound check a few times where they run through songs without James before he comes out, and I will tell you that, as others have noted, they have James' voice piped in doing harmonies on the backing vocals for parts.  Those backup harmonies are higher (louder) than JP's mix.  So what you get in a live setting, at least in some parts, is James singing lead, piped in backing vocals, and JP singing, but almost buried beneath James, the backing track, and the instruments.  That is what I witnessed firsthand on the DT12 tour (and I think I remember being a able to hear JP at the second TA show in Reno where they had a standing area/pit right in front of the stage, but I don't remember for sure anymore; Geeemo may remember). 

That info is a bit dated, but I think it is probably likely that that is what they are still doing.

gzarruk

Quote from: bosk1 on November 09, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
JP denies lip synching and says he sings every backup vocal, but intentionally keeps his backups low in the mix because he doesn't really like the way he sounds

That makes sense, as he stopped doing backing vocals in the studio from ADTOE onwards. I think the live backing vocals aspect was always more of an MP idea (and his desire to sing a lot with every band he's in), so maybe JP wasn't too comfortable doing them but still did them, just because.

Now, I do think that he could probably just stop doing them live, as they're really buried in the mix and most fans interpret it as him just lip synching.

cramx3

It's not so noticeable in the live setting, but watching these new live videos, it seems much more obvious that you are not actually hearing JP singing.  I'd have to go back and watch the other live albums to see if it looked/souneded as noticeable.  I don't recall.

bosk1

Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 01:20:47 PM
It's not so noticeable in the live setting, but watching these new live videos, it seems much more obvious that you are not actually hearing JP singing.  I'd have to go back and watch the other live albums to see if it looked/souneded as noticeable.  I don't recall.

You don't remember that from Breaking the Fourth Wall as well?  People were really making a big deal out of it on that release.  It's that way on Luna Park as well, but to a lesser degree.  And I think it is just less noticeable because the camera doesn't linger on JP.  And you do have some songs where his backup vocals are brought more to the front, like The Silent Man.

cramx3

Quote from: bosk1 on November 09, 2020, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on November 09, 2020, 01:20:47 PM
It's not so noticeable in the live setting, but watching these new live videos, it seems much more obvious that you are not actually hearing JP singing.  I'd have to go back and watch the other live albums to see if it looked/souneded as noticeable.  I don't recall.

You don't remember that from Breaking the Fourth Wall as well?  People were really making a big deal out of it on that release.  It's that way on Luna Park as well, but to a lesser degree.  And I think it is just less noticeable because the camera doesn't linger on JP.  And you do have some songs where his backup vocals are brought more to the front, like The Silent Man.

I haven't watched them in awhile, I know the discussion about his vocals have been going on since MP left but just don't recall specifically for those videos.  The crowd noises in Luna Park and the orchestra being unheard in Breaking the Fourth Wall are the issues I think of went it comes to those DVDs, and neither really bothered me too much like the things in this DVD seem to be bothering me. 

TAC

Quote from: bosk1 on November 09, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
Quote from: Zydar on November 06, 2020, 10:45:49 AMI still haven't figured out if JP is actually doing backup vocals or not. Looks like he mimes.

A couple of things on that:

1.  JP denies lip synching and says he sings every backup vocal, but intentionally keeps his backups low in the mix because he doesn't really like the way he sounds, and does the backups both for the visual and for just adding a bit of different texture.  At least, that's what he said back on the DT12 tour.  I haven't spoken with him about it or heard him comment since then.

2.  Whether or not #1 is 100% true 100% of the time, from my experiences with the band, I can vouch for it to an extent.  On the DT12 tour, I was close enough to JP to hear him singing (probably about 5 feet from him).  I have also heard them sound check a few times where they run through songs without James before he comes out, and I will tell you that, as others have noted, they have James' voice piped in doing harmonies on the backing vocals for parts.  Those backup harmonies are higher (louder) than JP's mix.  So what you get in a live setting, at least in some parts, is James singing lead, piped in backing vocals, and JP singing, but almost buried beneath James, the backing track, and the instruments.  That is what I witnessed firsthand on the DT12 tour (and I think I remember being a able to hear JP at the second TA show in Reno where they had a standing area/pit right in front of the stage, but I don't remember for sure anymore; Geeemo may remember). 

That info is a bit dated, but I think it is probably likely that that is what they are still doing.


I totally can see he is actually singing, but if they're just using a James backing track why bother?

Evai

I think it probably looks way better to a casual fan, who has never heard JP speak or remember his natural singing tone.

Zydar


King Postwhore

Quote from: TAC on November 09, 2020, 03:07:52 PM
Quote from: bosk1 on November 09, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
Quote from: Zydar on November 06, 2020, 10:45:49 AMI still haven't figured out if JP is actually doing backup vocals or not. Looks like he mimes.

A couple of things on that:

1.  JP denies lip synching and says he sings every backup vocal, but intentionally keeps his backups low in the mix because he doesn't really like the way he sounds, and does the backups both for the visual and for just adding a bit of different texture.  At least, that's what he said back on the DT12 tour.  I haven't spoken with him about it or heard him comment since then.

2.  Whether or not #1 is 100% true 100% of the time, from my experiences with the band, I can vouch for it to an extent.  On the DT12 tour, I was close enough to JP to hear him singing (probably about 5 feet from him).  I have also heard them sound check a few times where they run through songs without James before he comes out, and I will tell you that, as others have noted, they have James' voice piped in doing harmonies on the backing vocals for parts.  Those backup harmonies are higher (louder) than JP's mix.  So what you get in a live setting, at least in some parts, is James singing lead, piped in backing vocals, and JP singing, but almost buried beneath James, the backing track, and the instruments.  That is what I witnessed firsthand on the DT12 tour (and I think I remember being a able to hear JP at the second TA show in Reno where they had a standing area/pit right in front of the stage, but I don't remember for sure anymore; Geeemo may remember). 

That info is a bit dated, but I think it is probably likely that that is what they are still doing.


I totally can see he is actually singing, but if they're just using a James backing track why bother?

Why did Alex Lifeson bother as well?  We know the answer.  Aesthetics.  And you know what?  I'm ok with it. Some bands have 5 guys that can sing.  Some only have one but want harmonies.
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

devieira73

I also guess that's it (aesthetics). Although the pre-recorded JLB backing vocals is really what DT wants to be heard live, it would be too embarrassing if they were there and nobody was singing at the stage at the same moment. But, personally, I would prefer worst and real live backing vocals (or none) than this way.

King Postwhore

So would I but I do understand why some bands do it. 
"I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'." - Bon Newhart.

wolfking

It's just pretty comical when he sings and you clearly hear it's James' voice.  :lol

Setlist Scotty

I think part of the reason why it's harder to accept with DT is because it wasn't always this way. When MP was in the band, all the backing vocals were live. Yeah, maybe it didn't sound exactly like on the album, but no one going to see a concert is going to expect that. And they're real vocals - not taped performances. To me, these recorded backing vocals are just as bad as the canned audience loops on L@LP - fake, not the genuine article. They come off as disingenuous.

cramx3

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 10, 2020, 03:42:20 PM
I think part of the reason why it's harder to accept with DT is because it wasn't always this way. When MP was in the band, all the backing vocals were live. Yeah, maybe it didn't sound exactly like on the album, but no one going to see a concert is going to expect that. And they're real vocals - not taped performances. To me, these recorded backing vocals are just as bad as the canned audience loops on L@LP - fake, not the genuine article. They come off as disingenuous.

I'm not fan of MP on lead vocals, but I always thought his live backing vocals were solid.  Definitely good enough, and I enjoyed them the couple times I've seen Winery Dogs.  But you kind of hit the nail on the head, when MP left, that live vibe from DT also left, and that is not a knock on MM, who I love, it's about the approach the band took with the live show.

TAC

Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 10, 2020, 03:42:20 PM
I think part of the reason why it's harder to accept with DT is because it wasn't always this way. When MP was in the band, all the backing vocals were live. Yeah, maybe it didn't sound exactly like on the album, but no one going to see a concert is going to expect that. And they're real vocals - not taped performances. To me, these recorded backing vocals are just as bad as the canned audience loops on L@LP - fake, not the genuine article. They come off as disingenuous.

Yeah, I think it's awful.

What else is fake? Is JP actually not playing his solos? Is JLB lip synching too? I mean where does it end?

NoFred

Quote from: TAC on November 10, 2020, 04:37:53 PM
Quote from: Setlist Scotty on November 10, 2020, 03:42:20 PM
I think part of the reason why it's harder to accept with DT is because it wasn't always this way. When MP was in the band, all the backing vocals were live. Yeah, maybe it didn't sound exactly like on the album, but no one going to see a concert is going to expect that. And they're real vocals - not taped performances. To me, these recorded backing vocals are just as bad as the canned audience loops on L@LP - fake, not the genuine article. They come off as disingenuous.

Yeah, I think it's awful.

What else is fake? Is JP actually not playing his solos? Is JLB lip synching too? I mean where does it end?

Unbeknownst to us they've been miming to Distant Memories the whole tour, and it's been ready for release since D/T came out :lol

jammindude

QuoteWhy did Alex Lifeson bother as well?

I always had a theory that they never told him it wasn't on.  ;D

MoraWintersoul

Most bands I listen to put at least some of the backing vocals on tape. The math is simple, if you have only one guy who's kinda willing and kinda able to do backing vocals live, it's never gonna come off great. When it was MP and JP, they could cover each other. This way is the best solution for him - he gets to sing, you can't hear him too well so he doesn't have to stress about fucking up 20 instances of backing vocals, and he doesn't have to sit in the studio overdubbing his backing vocals for every live release! Especially now that they're playing some portion of SFAM for every other live release :lol

Pettor

MP's backing vocals on Hollow Years from L@B is  :metal

noxon

There's a lot of "secret sauce" in the mix of a live show that they prefer to stay a mystery even if it's pretty much common knowledge among the hardcore fans, so they won't really readily admit to them ;)

Chino

Quote from: gzarruk on November 05, 2020, 09:23:10 PM
Official audio for Fatal Tragedy already on Youtube: https://youtu.be/sX1HIc4fQaw

Vid is no longer available and comments have been turned off. What gives? I haven't seen it yet.

Edit: Seems to be working now.