Author Topic: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?  (Read 2108 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2020, 08:19:38 AM »
Stadler, I think there's a pretty clear distinction between the vague, nebulous 'harm's you're suggesting and the fairly direct one that results from people not giving their kids vaccinations. My point about the bomb wasn't that I can't buy the parts for it, it's that I'm not allowed to go around blowing people up. Use the hazardous material in the water table example if you want, it's probably a clearer analogue.

Re: just moving your kid to a different school. It's cool that you have the freedom and financial latitude to do that. Not everyone does. It's not reasonable to expect people to have to move away so they don't die of easily preventable diseases. Same thing with the MAGA example you brought up, which I assume you also think is unreasonable. Believe me, I hate this fucking country and I'd love to just leave but unfortunately that's not feasible. And that's probably the crux of the issue here for me: how do you prevent harm from China doing whatever they're doing? No idea. How do you separate the negatives of social media from the positives? I'm coming up empty. How do you prevent the recurrence of diseases we have vaccines for? GET A VACCINE.

If all society used this sort of whataboutism every time an issue was discussed, there never would have been any Civil Rights act. Just move to where someone will hire non-white people, no big deal. It paralyzes any kind of progress and makes virtuous the idea of never changing anything just because that's already the way it is.

So as long as it's simple for you, then it's okay? That sounds way snarkier than I mean it; I'm trying yet again to inject the sense of point of view here, the sense of one person's perspective when that perspective conflicts with someone else's.    You're assessing this from your perspective on an issue that for you is black and white, and making value judgments against things that are still grey for you; you don't know the impact of the Chinese or how to stop it, but there are experts in international geopolitical economics that do.  There is/are a Dr. Fauci and a Dr. Birx for that too.  And in social media (I know we have some here, but I've spoken to several PhD's in psychology, and not one of them is an advocate for social media en masse).   Some of the things you're talking about are "nebulous" to you; I lost a years income (and, ultimately, a marriage) from what I see as a very direct, very consequential response to the policies of President Obama.  There's nothing "nebulous" about it.  That's my reality to solve, no one else's.  Whereas you're deciding that because the odds favor YOU, I - all of us - should inject a vaccine INTO MY BODY, and that of my children.   It makes perfect sense to you but why is that even YOUR call to make?   Or the scientists, or anyone you decide makes your best argument (including the majority)?   You (and Mirror Mask) rejected my examples as being of a different level of certainty, but there are others; how is this different than, say, abortion?   If we can decide to infringe on someone's right to liberty (essentially where this falls), why not demand that women with fetuses that fall into a certain category get abortions?   Those "467 questions" aren't important to you, but they may be important to others. 

Don't misunderstand me, please.  I get the role of society and government, and if we, via our duly elected government decide that a policy is appropriate, through the system we all have in place, then so be it.  That's how the process is supposed to work.  I'm not pushing back against vaccines specifically - I'm vaccinated as are all my children - it's the judgment and the lack of accounting for positions that differ.  The idea that someone might be "stupid" or "ignorant" or "lesser" for being what we determine, without ever talking to them or getting their point of view on things, is wrong.  There is no "whataboutism" here (except in the attempt to make the point).   It's really about an equal amount of respect for those that prioritize and account differently than we do (i.e. disagree with us) as for those that think like we do (i.e. agree with us).   

(By the way, civil rights is different, in that the argument FOR civil rights is in my view the same argument AGAINST vaccines.  It's not about a collective will, it's about the inherent rights of the individual.   In the society of pre-1964 a majority of society deemed certain classes of people to be inferior or lesser, and in my argument, that's not the case.  A human being, with a beating heart and a sentient brain had a certain set of inalienable rights, and none of those rights were dependent on their skin color.)

The issues of 'China' and 'social media,' though, regardless of relevant PhDs, doesn't have anywhere close to the universal consensus on the right solution that NOT BEING VACCINATED IS BAD does. The issues aren't equivalent and presenting them as if they are feels intellectually dishonest to me. Some things just are black and white, or as near as anything can be.

Not all points of view are equal. A position doesn't deserve respect or consideration just because it exists. When NASA is building a spacecraft to go to Europa, they don't get a flat earther in the room to make sure they're 'considering every side of the issue,' because the people who run NASA aren't morons. (Well, Bridenstine seems all right, at least)

It's a nice idea to be respectful of other points of view. But when the action taken based on that idea is 'just let people decide for themselves whether or not to risk spreading easily preventable and deadly diseases' it crosses a serious fucking line. You can define this an infringement on someone's right to liberty; I'd say the same about forcing immunocompromised people to either run away from anywhere where people 'decide for themselves' or stay there and die. If your society is one that looks at the deaths of people who are susceptible to these diseases and says, well, freedom, nothing we can do about that, just the cost of doing business, then your society is intrinsically fucked.

I hope I've made myself clearer with the previous post, but if not, there's an axiom in the law:  "Good (or "great", or "hard") cases make bad law".  And what that means is, the interesting cases, the extreme cases, the one's eliciting the most sympathy, generally result in an outcome that doesn't best accommodate the vast majority of more "ordinary" cases.   And that's really what I'm talking about here.  You're using two very extreme cases - vaccines, with a century of data and information, and flat earthers - but I'm addressing the cases where it's not black and white.  We can use guns, if you like.  We can use any of a 100 other cases, and just because it's not black and white TO YOU, doesn't mean it's not black and white (or at least REALLY dark grey and REALLY light grey) to someone else.  Or that the harm is any less.

"Slam dunk" means "extreme" to me, and I'm leery of extremes.  I'm not now and never ever said (though it's a common response nonetheless) that we all have to account for every possible permutation in every possible scenario.  Never said that, don't mean that.  However, I DO mean that if an alternate permutation comes up in a given scenario, it should never be dismissed on an ad hominem basis.  Does it take time? Sure, but for every second wasted dismissing a flat-earther on a NASA mission, there are tens or hundreds or thousands of seconds expended in debates that allow for the best ideas to percolate to the service. 

We live in perhaps the second most divisive time in the history of this country.  Being "sure" of your "slam dunk" is not a differentiator.   That's really all I'm trying to preserve.   If the vaccine program is so darn important (and it is; as I said, I'm with you!) then the slight extra step that needs to be taken should be worth it, in exchange for the preservation of recognizing that we are a nation of 325 million people, not just "the majority" or the "consensus".   I may have a legit argument against vaccines that isn't tied to a bogus and debunked study, or a fringe religious sect, or the message I received on my AM radio from the race of Bartrons from the planet Gurgulous, and you shouldn't be able to ram it through because you're "sure" and there might be "harm" to you.   

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2020, 01:13:11 PM »
Well, Big Pharma, the ones who create and make profit from the vaccines, ignore the possiblity of using Natural Remedies as Remedies. No studies are done, No funding is really spent, yet some have been proven to work.

My dad is a perfect example, He was on insulin, until we went on a trip and he took the wrong insulin jar that was almost empty. After that, He was told about Fork Over Knives, he read it and watched it and decided to try a Vegan diet. Now he is off insulin, and all it took is a simple diet change. Yet, no push for people to change their diets.

Why won't they say it, because They'll lose money and their investors will also lose money.
Why is it their responsibility to point out alternatives? Moreover, they're providing a product people want. On top of that, who's to say that a vegan diet would work for everybody? Why not just prescribe them all a joint a day and hope for the best? I understand that there's a lot of bad stuff going on with big pharma, but one thing I'm not going to do is hold them to the fire for not pushing alternatives to their own product when their own product does the job. Just as I wouldn't expect the folks at Briggs Stratton to go around telling people to plant grass that doesn't grow tall.

Also, going from American to vegan is hardly "a simple diet change."

Of course a vegan diet won't work for everybody. It's simple logistics of everyone lacking different nutrients and what you need to be healthy. Which is why you should be talking to your doctor and nutritionists, dietitians about these things.

I shouldn't have said simple diet change. It takes a strong will to want to change anything that has been the norm for people. It's why we're having trouble in the NA Community with this. It's a matter of a personal decision to want to get healthy for our people.

It's mainly the doctors, just pushing pills on people. Especially on us, Everytime we go to a IHS or place like that, they would usually tell us, "Oh, it's just a virus. Just drink water and get rest and you'll be fine."

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Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2020, 01:22:35 PM »
Well, Big Pharma, the ones who create and make profit from the vaccines, ignore the possiblity of using Natural Remedies as Remedies. No studies are done, No funding is really spent, yet some have been proven to work.

My dad is a perfect example, He was on insulin, until we went on a trip and he took the wrong insulin jar that was almost empty. After that, He was told about Fork Over Knives, he read it and watched it and decided to try a Vegan diet. Now he is off insulin, and all it took is a simple diet change. Yet, no push for people to change their diets.

Why won't they say it, because They'll lose money and their investors will also lose money.
Why is it their responsibility to point out alternatives? Moreover, they're providing a product people want. On top of that, who's to say that a vegan diet would work for everybody? Why not just prescribe them all a joint a day and hope for the best? I understand that there's a lot of bad stuff going on with big pharma, but one thing I'm not going to do is hold them to the fire for not pushing alternatives to their own product when their own product does the job. Just as I wouldn't expect the folks at Briggs Stratton to go around telling people to plant grass that doesn't grow tall.

Also, going from American to vegan is hardly "a simple diet change."

Of course a vegan diet won't work for everybody. It's simple logistics of everyone lacking different nutrients and what you need to be healthy. Which is why you should be talking to your doctor and nutritionists, dietitians about these things.

Many people can't even afford their copays for their GP or the prescriptions they write, let alone visits to nutritionists and dietary experts. Americans are too poor, and access to specialists and affordable healthy options are too scarce. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of lazy people in the states, but a HUGE component are the costs associated with being truly healthy.

Offline Stadler

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2020, 01:53:31 PM »
Well, Big Pharma, the ones who create and make profit from the vaccines, ignore the possiblity of using Natural Remedies as Remedies. No studies are done, No funding is really spent, yet some have been proven to work.

My dad is a perfect example, He was on insulin, until we went on a trip and he took the wrong insulin jar that was almost empty. After that, He was told about Fork Over Knives, he read it and watched it and decided to try a Vegan diet. Now he is off insulin, and all it took is a simple diet change. Yet, no push for people to change their diets.

Why won't they say it, because They'll lose money and their investors will also lose money.
Why is it their responsibility to point out alternatives? Moreover, they're providing a product people want. On top of that, who's to say that a vegan diet would work for everybody? Why not just prescribe them all a joint a day and hope for the best? I understand that there's a lot of bad stuff going on with big pharma, but one thing I'm not going to do is hold them to the fire for not pushing alternatives to their own product when their own product does the job. Just as I wouldn't expect the folks at Briggs Stratton to go around telling people to plant grass that doesn't grow tall.

Also, going from American to vegan is hardly "a simple diet change."

Of course a vegan diet won't work for everybody. It's simple logistics of everyone lacking different nutrients and what you need to be healthy. Which is why you should be talking to your doctor and nutritionists, dietitians about these things.

Many people can't even afford their copays for their GP or the prescriptions they write, let alone visits to nutritionists and dietary experts. Americans are too poor, and access to specialists and affordable healthy options are too scarce. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of lazy people in the states, but a HUGE component are the costs associated with being truly healthy.

Chino, please, not arguing with you, but having a discussion.   I hear that a fair amount and I have to admit, I'm skeptical, at least as regards the food.   I won't quibble about the GP, that's a different matter, but if you can get on Facebook, you can get yourself to a website that has at least general nutritional information.  I'm not suggesting that it's a substitute for a full-on dietary regimen (especially the type that I would rely on to treat the dia-beat-is), but I see a LOT of low-hanging fruit.

For the life of me, I do not understand how even one ounce of diet soda (aka, the Devil's Sperm) gets sold.  So much of health isn't about medical programs, it's about self-control and even beyond that, just simply thinking about what you're eating.   My stepson is 12, he's 5'10" and 215 lbs (the 50th percentile is about 90 lbs).   We fight with his dad CONSTANTLY about his diet (he feeds him four nights a week); and we get either "he's a growing boy and needs to eat; he'll be fine!" or "well I'm not made of money like YOU!".   Instead, though, it's McDonald's at least once a week, pizza at least once a week, and crap like tacos and grilled cheese the rest of the time.   I don't know when the last time is you've been to Mickey D's, but it ain't cheap anymore.  Even a moderate meal is $10 bucks or more at regular prices.   You can get a head of lettuce, a couple of cucumbers, a bottle of vinegar, and a bottle of olive oil for less than a meal at McDonald's, and the O & V will last you for a month, and the veg for at least three servings.    And there's no cooking involved.  I've learned since my divorce, because I wanted to, but I'm no Bob Flay, and yet we have reasonable variety.

Again, I'm not suggesting this is a medical approach, so your point about that is still valid, but eating "better" let's say (as opposed to healthy) isn't entirely about dollars and cents.  There's no requirement for boutique food to be healthy.

Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2020, 02:13:49 PM »
I said it was a huge component, not the only component. I specifically said that there were plenty of lazy people in the states (your step son's dad apparently). I'm just saying, anecdotally I guess, I see a correlation between income and health with the people I interact with. At my office job where the average wage is 3x-4x that of those at my weekend job, the employees in the office are basically infinitely healthier than the retail folks. They have more time to exercise, can afford to go to the doctor other than when they feel like they're dying, and they can buy better quality food. They also tend to live in more affluent areas where their kids are getting healthier options at school and at camps. I sure it's not all money, and education can probably be tapped as a contributor as well, but money is most certainly a component. My boss spends $400 on 8 gym sessions a month with a trainer, and who knows how much more curating a hardcore food regimen. Even if McDonalds prices come out to be a wash against healthier options in the grocery store, I still think an argument can be made that it comes down to money. When I was really struggling with money, I'd get fast food on occasion because all I had on me was $7 dollars for the day. I couldn't afford at the time to go to a grocery store and buy $100 worth of groceries without having to put it on a credit card at a time when I was already $12K in CC debt.

Again, I understand there are more variables than just money, but I think it's pretty evident, at least in the US, there's a statistical correlation between how much people are worth and how healthy they tend to be.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2020, 03:02:27 PM »
You're using two very extreme cases - vaccines, with a century of data and information, and flat earthers

I'm using these cases because that's what the subject of the thread is about. I'm not talking about China or social media because this thread isn't about them. I'm not saying that there are no issues in the world that are complicated and many-faceted. If you want to talk about how difficult it is to find solutions to problems (like China, social media, guns, whatever), neat I guess and you're free to do that, but that's not what the thread is about and consequently it doesn't really make sense to respond to me as if I'm making any kind of point about those issues. If you're in agreement with me on vaccines, then neat, I would have expected that when I said this:

I am honestly completely baffled by this entire discussion. Can we not agree that promoting ideas that revive diseases that had functionally been eliminated up until now is NOT THAT GREAT?

For you to be like, oh shit yeah, vaccines, pretty open-and-shut. No disagreement here.

If however, if you're using 'but what about these others issues that are complicated and have no easy solutions,' as a reason why we shouldn't be able to come to a definitive, black and white conclusion on vaccines, as you imply again here:

If the vaccine program is so darn important (and it is; as I said, I'm with you!) then the slight extra step that needs to be taken should be worth it, in exchange for the preservation of recognizing that we are a nation of 325 million people, not just "the majority" or the "consensus".   I may have a legit argument against vaccines that isn't tied to a bogus and debunked study, or a fringe religious sect, or the message I received on my AM radio from the race of Bartrons from the planet Gurgulous, and you shouldn't be able to ram it through because you're "sure" and there might be "harm" to you.

Then that's pretty much definitionally whataboutism. You can say it isn't, like I can say your fingers have fallen off and you can no longer type replies to my posts, but reality is unconvinced by our protestations. And this goes back to what I said before about this line of thinking, applied universally, paralyzing the possibility of progress. There is no solution that will make both the loons who think vaccines are giving us autism and the medically susceptible who want to not die satisfied. The idea of 'just let everyone make their own decision,' which is what I initially argued against and subsequently what you responded to, is what I have a problem with. It takes the two sides and pretends they're perfectly equal and worthy of consideration when they aren't. And if you treat every issue like this, the government will never be able to do anything.

And if the default stance is that the government should just allow everyone to make their own choices on everything, I'd say that's an absence of action but it's not an absence of stance. It goes against the right of people who cannot be vaccinated to live safe, healthy lives because it decides that the 'right' of people to decide not to be vaccinated against all scientific evidence is of equal importance. If I wanted to be a smug asshole, and I usually do, I'd point to the fairly well-known document that mentions 'Life, Liberty, and Pursuit Happiness,' and note that 'Life' appears before 'Liberty.'


Also, on the food issue, holy shit I actually agree with Stadler. I always hear people say 'it's so expensive to eat healthy,' but that's not true at all. Buying frozen vegetables, some basic canned foods, spices and whatever to make reasonably healthy meals is far cheaper than fast food. Now, if the comparison is between cheap fast food and like, premade meals at some high-end store or a sandwich at Panera Bread, sure, healthy is more expensive. But that shouldn't the comparison.

As Chino notes, though, there are other factors to consider. America has serious problems with a culture of overwork, and you gotta have health insurance and pay medical bills, so it may just not be possible for some of these people to find time in the day to cook anything. That's a different issue from food being expensive, though. And of course laziness is also a problem, although I certainly wouldn't say it's the sole factor in why people are unhealthy.

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Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2020, 07:00:03 PM »
I also think mental health plays a huge role in someone's physical health, and I think a lot more people in this country are depressed and/or miserable than would ever admit.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2020, 08:37:50 PM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?
I used to listen to them with a big warm smile, like when I'm listening to my 5 years old daughter tell me about how she's gonna be an astronaut and fly through rainbows.
Now my forehead is bruised from facepalming myself when I read their ideas.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2020, 06:03:23 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2020, 07:55:42 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.


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Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2020, 08:00:10 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.

Doesn't matter how many people attach themselves to the a conclusion. Wrong is wrong. Windmills don't cause cancer. Vaccines work. Climate changes are violent on ecosystems. There are not reptiles grooming children as sex slaves in a hidden bunker in pizza joints. That's water vapor coming out of the back of planes, not chemtrails to feminize your sons. Jade Helm never manifested to anything.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 08:20:15 AM by Chino »

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2020, 08:09:08 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.

Doesn't care how many people attach themselves to the a conclusion. Wrong is wrong. Windmills don't cause cancer. Vaccines work. Climate changes are violent on ecosystems. There are not reptiles grooming children as sex slaves in a hidden bunker in pizza joints. That's water vapor coming out of the back of planes, not chemtrails to feminize your sons. Jade Helm never manifested to anything.

Indeed. And that was what my initial question was about, "how do you stop them?", because all methods at hand - ridiculing and mocking, censorship, public debates - won't change the minds of those who already decided that they belong to the "Selected Few Who Know the Truth".
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2020, 08:20:55 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.

Doesn't care how many people attach themselves to the a conclusion. Wrong is wrong. Windmills don't cause cancer. Vaccines work. Climate changes are violent on ecosystems. There are not reptiles grooming children as sex slaves in a hidden bunker in pizza joints. That's water vapor coming out of the back of planes, not chemtrails to feminize your sons. Jade Helm never manifested to anything.

For one, those are your extremist Conspiracy theorists.

I do believe Vaccines do help and work, but not all. It's why there are side effects and some people get them worse because our bodies are different. Which is why we need to know what is in these vaccines. And what are other ways besides a vaccine injection, that can help me get better? Natural Remedies can work but there aren't FDA studies to prove just how and what amount should be used, generally. Most Natural products, say they have not been evaluated by the FDA, so people don't trust it enough and won't bother when it may actually help more.

Can the Water Vapor of a Contrail be used to cool down the Earth?

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Also, think about this...People in Rural areas have a vast different perspective of life, than a person who grew up in an Urban/City environment. The rural person can see the stars every night, can see in every direction and see nothing but horizon.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2020, 08:27:44 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.

Doesn't care how many people attach themselves to the a conclusion. Wrong is wrong. Windmills don't cause cancer. Vaccines work. Climate changes are violent on ecosystems. There are not reptiles grooming children as sex slaves in a hidden bunker in pizza joints. That's water vapor coming out of the back of planes, not chemtrails to feminize your sons. Jade Helm never manifested to anything.

Indeed. And that was what my initial question was about, "how do you stop them?", because all methods at hand - ridiculing and mocking, censorship, public debates - won't change the minds of those who already decided that they belong to the "Selected Few Who Know the Truth".

You bombard them with sources and proofs, that what they're saying isn't true. It's like being a prosecutor, you have to prove their guilty of Conspiracy.

But there are those, as in any group that comes together, that take it to the extreme, and end up being the loudest, drowning out the main point of the group gathering.

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Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2020, 08:29:19 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.

Doesn't care how many people attach themselves to the a conclusion. Wrong is wrong. Windmills don't cause cancer. Vaccines work. Climate changes are violent on ecosystems. There are not reptiles grooming children as sex slaves in a hidden bunker in pizza joints. That's water vapor coming out of the back of planes, not chemtrails to feminize your sons. Jade Helm never manifested to anything.

For one, those are your extremist Conspiracy theorists.

I do believe Vaccines do help and work, but not all. It's why there are side effects and some people get them worse because our bodies are different. Which is why we need to know what is in these vaccines. And what are other ways besides a vaccine injection, that can help me get better? Natural Remedies can work but there aren't FDA studies to prove just how and what amount should be used, generally. Most Natural products, say they have not been evaluated by the FDA, so people don't trust it enough and won't bother when it may actually help more.

Can the Water Vapor of a Contrail be used to cool down the Earth?

https://earthdata.nasa.gov/learn/sensing-our-planet/on-the-trail-of-contrails


Also, think about this...People in Rural areas have a vast different perspective of life, than a person who grew up in an Urban/City environment. The rural person can see the stars every night, can see in every direction and see nothing but horizon.

I think about those people on a daily basis, and how they're holding this country back. Perfect example:
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/511633-trump-calls-qanon-gop-primary-winner-a-future-republican-star

Quote
I do believe Vaccines do help and work, but not all.
Which ones don't work?


Cool contrail link. But I'm not sure how that's relevant.




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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2020, 08:47:42 AM »
Remember when conspiracy theorists were funny and cute? before they became aggravating and dangerous?

That was because they weren't amplified. Twenty years ago, a loon could probably go months without meeting someone with similar thoughts. Their ideology was confined to individuals, small pockets of people, and annual conventions. Now they have groups in the thousands online and can chat with each other all day long.

Or more people are finding people that have come to the same conclusion (Something's about this doesn't seem right) and are now bonding together. No more will the person be afraid of being called a loon if they talked to people about these things.

Doesn't care how many people attach themselves to the a conclusion. Wrong is wrong. Windmills don't cause cancer. Vaccines work. Climate changes are violent on ecosystems. There are not reptiles grooming children as sex slaves in a hidden bunker in pizza joints. That's water vapor coming out of the back of planes, not chemtrails to feminize your sons. Jade Helm never manifested to anything.

Indeed. And that was what my initial question was about, "how do you stop them?", because all methods at hand - ridiculing and mocking, censorship, public debates - won't change the minds of those who already decided that they belong to the "Selected Few Who Know the Truth".

You bombard them with sources and proofs, that what they're saying isn't true. It's like being a prosecutor, you have to prove their guilty of Conspiracy.

But there are those, as in any group that comes together, that take it to the extreme, and end up being the loudest, drowning out the main point of the group gathering.

I don't think you're wrong, but let's also remember that there's such a thing called burden of proof: I don't have to prove the moon landings were real (which anyway can be done by simply saying "they left the m'f'kin mirrors up there to calculate the distance between the moon and the Earth"), they have to prove the landings were faked.

But the real problem is that people don't accept the proof, for one person that has the doubt "hey, what if they are right? what if, as crazy as it sounds, the moon landings were faked?" and does some research and concludes that yes, we've been on the moon, there are 999 persons who are seduced by the idea and won't ACCEPT any proof, not realizing they don't even have the tools or the professional background to understand what's being presented in a random YouTube video.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2020, 09:50:33 AM »
I said it was a huge component, not the only component. I specifically said that there were plenty of lazy people in the states (your step son's dad apparently). I'm just saying, anecdotally I guess, I see a correlation between income and health with the people I interact with. At my office job where the average wage is 3x-4x that of those at my weekend job, the employees in the office are basically infinitely healthier than the retail folks. They have more time to exercise, can afford to go to the doctor other than when they feel like they're dying, and they can buy better quality food. They also tend to live in more affluent areas where their kids are getting healthier options at school and at camps. I sure it's not all money, and education can probably be tapped as a contributor as well, but money is most certainly a component. My boss spends $400 on 8 gym sessions a month with a trainer, and who knows how much more curating a hardcore food regimen. Even if McDonalds prices come out to be a wash against healthier options in the grocery store, I still think an argument can be made that it comes down to money. When I was really struggling with money, I'd get fast food on occasion because all I had on me was $7 dollars for the day. I couldn't afford at the time to go to a grocery store and buy $100 worth of groceries without having to put it on a credit card at a time when I was already $12K in CC debt.

Again, I understand there are more variables than just money, but I think it's pretty evident, at least in the US, there's a statistical correlation between how much people are worth and how healthy they tend to be.

I'm with you.  I see where you're going (and as I said, I'm not arguing with you).   

I'm probably going to hold my tongue beyond this (because it's controversial, impolitic, and certainly off-topic) but while there may be a CORRELATION, I'm not fully there about CAUSE.  I think there's a chance - a CHANCE! - that there's a root to all of this.  That is, it's not necessarily that poverty causes ill health, but that the things that cause or exacerbate ill health also cause or exacerbate poverty. 

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2020, 09:54:48 AM »
Case in point about how people behave: I don't know what's the opinion of Putin in your various nations, but in Europe - at least in Italy - there's a group of people that see him as the strong man against the big USA baddie, he's protagonist of fake news where as a strong man says manly things about ways should be handled in Italy, and so he's basically a folk hero of the functional illiterate.

I made a comment online, about the skepticism of the "Sputnik vaccine", saying: "So, do we have already those comments about the vaccine being legit, but Putin being discredited because Bill Gates needs to sell his vaccine along with the microchip"?

.....you would not believe how many took me seriously, asked me if I had proof, accused me of being of a certain political faction, or that pro vax people are by default no vax when it comes to Putin.

Can we label complete inability to detect sarcasm and irony as a proof of potential stupidity? or it's people being obsessed with a specific idea that are so fixated with it to not recognize irony? can a firm and stubborn believer of the moon landings being faked recognize a blatant and clear ironic post about it?
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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2020, 10:32:55 AM »
You're using two very extreme cases - vaccines, with a century of data and information, and flat earthers

I'm using these cases because that's what the subject of the thread is about. I'm not talking about China or social media because this thread isn't about them. I'm not saying that there are no issues in the world that are complicated and many-faceted. If you want to talk about how difficult it is to find solutions to problems (like China, social media, guns, whatever), neat I guess and you're free to do that, but that's not what the thread is about and consequently it doesn't really make sense to respond to me as if I'm making any kind of point about those issues. If you're in agreement with me on vaccines, then neat, I would have expected that when I said this:

I am honestly completely baffled by this entire discussion. Can we not agree that promoting ideas that revive diseases that had functionally been eliminated up until now is NOT THAT GREAT?

For you to be like, oh shit yeah, vaccines, pretty open-and-shut. No disagreement here.

If however, if you're using 'but what about these others issues that are complicated and have no easy solutions,' as a reason why we shouldn't be able to come to a definitive, black and white conclusion on vaccines, as you imply again here:

If the vaccine program is so darn important (and it is; as I said, I'm with you!) then the slight extra step that needs to be taken should be worth it, in exchange for the preservation of recognizing that we are a nation of 325 million people, not just "the majority" or the "consensus".   I may have a legit argument against vaccines that isn't tied to a bogus and debunked study, or a fringe religious sect, or the message I received on my AM radio from the race of Bartrons from the planet Gurgulous, and you shouldn't be able to ram it through because you're "sure" and there might be "harm" to you.

Then that's pretty much definitionally whataboutism. You can say it isn't, like I can say your fingers have fallen off and you can no longer type replies to my posts, but reality is unconvinced by our protestations. And this goes back to what I said before about this line of thinking, applied universally, paralyzing the possibility of progress. There is no solution that will make both the loons who think vaccines are giving us autism and the medically susceptible who want to not die satisfied. The idea of 'just let everyone make their own decision,' which is what I initially argued against and subsequently what you responded to, is what I have a problem with. It takes the two sides and pretends they're perfectly equal and worthy of consideration when they aren't. And if you treat every issue like this, the government will never be able to do anything.

And if the default stance is that the government should just allow everyone to make their own choices on everything, I'd say that's an absence of action but it's not an absence of stance. It goes against the right of people who cannot be vaccinated to live safe, healthy lives because it decides that the 'right' of people to decide not to be vaccinated against all scientific evidence is of equal importance. If I wanted to be a smug asshole, and I usually do, I'd point to the fairly well-known document that mentions 'Life, Liberty, and Pursuit Happiness,' and note that 'Life' appears before 'Liberty.'

Either I don't follow you or we're back to where we started.   I didn't worry even a second about introducing other issues, because for me it's NOT ABOUT VACCINES.  It's about the process under which vaccines get adopted as a public practice, and that process has to encompass more than just the "slam dunk" that is vaccines.   "Masks" fall into this; I can find you credible, reliable sources that say that "masks" are not the be-all and end-all of COVID-19 prevention, but social distancing is.   I can find you credible reliable sources that say "if you do NOTHING else, wear a mask".  So what then?  Do you FORCE people to do stuff YOU want, so YOU feel better, with questionable outcomes?    The "gun" argument is here for me; every mass shooting, there are three inevitable reactions:   sorrow for the dead, a plethora of snarky, sarcastic ripostes to "thoughts and prayers", and calls for increased gun legislation.   I've written more words on the inefficacy of most gun legislation (in English: THEY DON'T WORK) than almost any other topic not named "Blackmore", and yet it is like CLOCKWORK.  Because it makes people FEEL GOOD.   I don't really give a rat's ass what makes people FEEL GOOD when it comes to this stuff.   

Whether I agree with you on vaccines or not is immaterial, because I'm talking about PROCESS.  Our outcomes shouldn't be based on whether we agree; that's the whole point of my argument.  We're in the most divisive time in this country since 1860, and there's not concensus.   You saying "I'm right" or "this is cut and dry" is fine, but that doesn't make it so, and it certainly does not get those that disagree on board.   I CAN disagree with vaccinations without being a tin-foil crackpot, or an idiot, or a Republican (to some, I repeated myself).   You don't like it, because "people are harmed", but I don't hold "people are harmed" as an absolute standard.  It's an important one, it's a timeless one, but it's not ABSOLUTE. 

And you lost me on "whataboutism"; to me, "whataboutism" is just a nicer, yet more dismissive way of saying "hypocrite" and I don't think either one of us is a hypocrite here.  I'm just advocating for a more democratic - small "d" - process. 

Quote
As Chino notes, though, there are other factors to consider. America has serious problems with a culture of overwork, and you gotta have health insurance and pay medical bills, so it may just not be possible for some of these people to find time in the day to cook anything. That's a different issue from food being expensive, though. And of course laziness is also a problem, although I certainly wouldn't say it's the sole factor in why people are unhealthy.

Although I'm the one arguing against "money" as a direct factor, I'm not sure "laziness" is really it either.  While I do believe "where there's a will there's a way", I think there's a low-level psychological "funk" growing in this country, and I think the exploding obesity is a part and parcel of that.  I think for some people it manifests as obesity, for others it manifests in prescription drug reliance and for others it manifests in shooting up a school or a workplace.   It's easy and convenient to point at the monetary "haves" and "have nots", because it helps to absolve blame (and because it's potentially solvable), but there's a more tenacious, day-to-day "have" and "have not" that has no real solution.  The "us" and "them" of responsibility.  In my existance, in talking with people in my travels and online, I see FAR more interpersonal envy than I do class envy, and I think that's really having an impact on our country, especially when, as is inevitable, the reality is not the same as the imagery.  I know I'm going existential here, but it informs my answers here so there you go. 

I was watching the news this week - the local story is the "failure" of Eversource (our power company in this state) to restore power adequately after the Tropical Storm Isiais last Tuesday.   And each night on each of the stations I watch (I flip between the NBC affiliate and the Fox affiliate) they interview one or two local people to get their "thoughts" on the matter.   It's a running joke between my wife and I; they'll cut to the person and I'll pause the TV and tell wife what they'll say.  It's almost always exactly the same every time: "they should have told us", "this never should have happened", "they this" and "they that".  Then inevitably, because it's Connecticut, they cut to our Attorney General or a state rep who adds in "we're going to fight these big corporations who put profits over people with every weapon in our tool box!".   Um...  we had THREE tornadoes and almost six hours of sustained tropical force winds in the span of three days.   What do these people expect?   LIFE HAPPENS.   It's not Eversource's responsibility to make sure that we're completely unaffected by the turning of the planet. 

I'm starting to seriously think that we need a more global, comprehensive mental health wellness initiative in our country, starting in school.  I don't know what that looks like, but we need to sharpen our coping skills instead of continually trying to hope the inevitable - life - doesn't happen to us.

EDIT:  I swear, I just saw Chino's comment about mental health AFTER I wrote this.  He said in one sentence what I was trying to say above in three paragraphs.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2020, 11:14:28 AM »
Case in point about how people behave: I don't know what's the opinion of Putin in your various nations, but in Europe - at least in Italy - there's a group of people that see him as the strong man against the big USA baddie, he's protagonist of fake news where as a strong man says manly things about ways should be handled in Italy, and so he's basically a folk hero of the functional illiterate.

I made a comment online, about the skepticism of the "Sputnik vaccine", saying: "So, do we have already those comments about the vaccine being legit, but Putin being discredited because Bill Gates needs to sell his vaccine along with the microchip"?

.....you would not believe how many took me seriously, asked me if I had proof, accused me of being of a certain political faction, or that pro vax people are by default no vax when it comes to Putin.

Can we label complete inability to detect sarcasm and irony as a proof of potential stupidity? or it's people being obsessed with a specific idea that are so fixated with it to not recognize irony? can a firm and stubborn believer of the moon landings being faked recognize a blatant and clear ironic post about it?

It's hard to see the world as it actually is, warts and all (and as opposed to the way that rationalizes one's innate world view).    If you're dealing with someone insecure enough to placate themselves with conspiracies rather than confront their own point of view, why would you expect them to be secure enough to accept the rebuke (whether intended or not)?   That sarcasm is essentially a personal attack at that point. 

EDIT:  I will also say that it's possibly a matter of convenience.   I've taken to responding at times on Quora and Twitter to what I consider contemptable posts with faux ignorance; both places are chock full of people that are not intellectually capable of much more than sarcasm, and certainly not mature enough to engage in normal dialogue, resorting to petty namecalling and cheap shots to make their point.  If I see a post that references "Drumpf" or "tRump" or "Boy King", I'll often start out with "Well, I don't know who "Drumpf" is, but ...."    The point isn't to insult them, the point (likely totally missed by them) is to implicitly point out that the whole world doesn't necessarily exist in their head with their vernacular and their point of view. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 11:21:01 AM by Stadler »

Offline Chino

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2020, 11:31:30 AM »
"low-level psychological funk"... I like that. That's the perfect way to describe where I was trying to go with that post. I don't know if "depression" is quite it, but it's definitely something. I can tell just by scrolling through my Instagram feed. I actually don't follow many individuals as far as people I personally associate with. I follow robot builders, RC truck people, etc.. But the people I follow that I do know paint what I believe to be a very telling picture. It's spans all age groups, sexes, education levels, and career paths. There are people I'm friends with who I know for a fact are very sad people. They rarely experience legitimate happiness or feelings of accomplishment. They're always stressed about money and their houses could be on a show called "Almost a hoarder". Their Instagram shows an entirely different life. A life full of adventure, social engagements, and inspirational memes promoting unobtainable levels of self-worth and happiness.

I feel like a lot of Instagram pages are almost like that mirror in Harry Potter that shows you what you want more than anything else in the world. These people are posting the life they so desperately wish they were living, but outside of that digital space, they couldn't be further from it. They flood their feeds with positivity and support for the social flavor of the week because it's the closest they're ever going to get to doing something meaningful. It's the closest they're ever going to get to doing something impactful with their lives, and it tears them apart inside. And I think that's the crux of it all. I'm of the mind a lot of people think (exacerbated by the decline in religious affiliation) their life needs to have meaning, or that they need to do something worthwhile with their short time on Earth. A lot of people don't/aren't, and it's getting them down.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 11:44:58 AM by Chino »

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2020, 11:48:08 AM »
"Everyone should be allowed to decide for themselves whether to get vaccinated or not."

Again, this is the point I'm arguing against.

I agree there should be a process. That process has taken place over the last hundred years. You say there isn't consensus, but there is. There is a consensus of science and experts and unmotherfuckingassailable facts. My argument doesn't have the slightest fucking thing to with how I FEEL. That's why I say the Guns! China! points are whataboutism, because you're using them as comparisons when they're not comparable issues, as you yourself agreed here:

vaccines, with a century of data and information,

There is consensus. There is a clear answer to the question 'should people be vaccinated.' And if you still think that somehow at this point in time the process has not been satisfied, that the argument against vaccines still deserves to be considered (Even though, as I've said multiple times, the two arguments ARE NOT EQUIVALENT), then your process will never be satisfied.

And if the response to the process being unsatisfied is inaction (everyone do what they want), and the process is unable to ever be satisfied (because every argument, regardless of credibility, must be considered), then the response tacitly sides with the antivaxxers and their 'right' to further whichever diseases they want. It's like the paradox of tolerance. 'Everyone do what they want' is not a neutral position. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." And the choice you've made is that the 'right' of susceptible people to exist without the fear of being killed by someone else's easily avoidable stupidity is less important than the 'right' of the antivaxxer, because the two cannot exist in concert.

And honestly I'm just going to drop this fucking discussion now because I don't feel like you're actually addressing the points I'm talking about and it's making my head hurt.
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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2020, 01:05:50 PM »
You're missing a very, very key point.   "Data" isn't the only variable here.  Your "data" shows that the impacts (or even the existance) of the microorganism can be eliminated with vaccines.  Okay, agreed.  That's a factual determination; there's a right answer and there's not.   Then there's the next step:  this elimination is good for society.  Less factual, may not be a hard "right" or "wrong", but certainly arguments can be made.   Then, though, there's the next step: we are going to forcibly invade someone's autonomous body to achieve that goal.  NOT FACTUAL, and no "right" or "wrong". 

How did we get to the jump where we can just order someone to inject this into their body to meet this objective?  Why does your data DEMAND that I inject this into my body?   Where is the leap for that?  We're not talking about seatbelts, we're not talking about guns, we're not talking about porno, we're talking something more fundamental.   The data says "if x (vaccinations) then y (reduction in infectious disease)" but the data DOESN'T complete the analysis of "do we all value Y over z (personal autonomy)". 

We could, easily, reduce the number of children with [insert affliction that impacts our society; causes "harm" if you will] by mandating abortions in certain instances.  Fully data driven, fully fact based.   Do we do it?

I've conceded to you that if we as a society, living under the social contract and the government of the people, decide in our system that this is the best way, then so be it.  We've presumably all bought into that.   But there's a palpable anger/emotion to your post, and that's what I'm really responding to; I don't believe you get to be angry if someone doesn't make the leap you do.   Well, it's your emotion, so I guess you do get to be angry; but it's part and parcel with living in a democracy that we HAVE to accept and give accordance to people who think differently than we do, even if there is "harm".  It's not an absolute.  I don't know that the process has been satisfied or not; it would depend on the jurisdiction.  I have no problem with a legislature saying you could not attend school without vaccinations (frankly, that's my understanding of the law of the land; my kids have attended schools in five states and had to provide vaccination info in all five.)   If there's a legislative waiver for certain reasons to that, so be it, the process is served.   The people have spoken; the decision to be vaccinated or not doesn't HAVE to just be at the doctor's office; it can be at the ballot box.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 01:11:02 PM by Stadler »

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2020, 01:12:06 PM »
"low-level psychological funk"... I like that. That's the perfect way to describe where I was trying to go with that post. I don't know if "depression" is quite it, but it's definitely something. I can tell just by scrolling through my Instagram feed. I actually don't follow many individuals as far as people I personally associate with. I follow robot builders, RC truck people, etc.. But the people I follow that I do know paint what I believe to be a very telling picture. It's spans all age groups, sexes, education levels, and career paths. There are people I'm friends with who I know for a fact are very sad people. They rarely experience legitimate happiness or feelings of accomplishment. They're always stressed about money and their houses could be on a show called "Almost a hoarder". Their Instagram shows an entirely different life. A life full of adventure, social engagements, and inspirational memes promoting unobtainable levels of self-worth and happiness.

I feel like a lot of Instagram pages are almost like that mirror in Harry Potter that shows you what you want more than anything else in the world. These people are posting the life they so desperately wish they were living, but outside of that digital space, they couldn't be further from it. They flood their feeds with positivity and support for the social flavor of the week because it's the closest they're ever going to get to doing something meaningful. It's the closest they're ever going to get to doing something impactful with their lives, and it tears them apart inside. And I think that's the crux of it all. I'm of the mind a lot of people think (exacerbated by the decline in religious affiliation) their life needs to have meaning, or that they need to do something worthwhile with their short time on Earth. A lot of people don't/aren't, and it's getting them down.

YES!!!!!!

And the data is starting, as I understand it, to bolster your impressions. This IS what's happening, and it serves to explain a LOT of other, seemingly unrelated, phenomena.

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Re: How to stop the wildfire of conspiracy theories?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2020, 02:47:50 PM »
"low-level psychological funk"... I like that. That's the perfect way to describe where I was trying to go with that post. I don't know if "depression" is quite it, but it's definitely something. I can tell just by scrolling through my Instagram feed. I actually don't follow many individuals as far as people I personally associate with. I follow robot builders, RC truck people, etc.. But the people I follow that I do know paint what I believe to be a very telling picture. It's spans all age groups, sexes, education levels, and career paths. There are people I'm friends with who I know for a fact are very sad people. They rarely experience legitimate happiness or feelings of accomplishment. They're always stressed about money and their houses could be on a show called "Almost a hoarder". Their Instagram shows an entirely different life. A life full of adventure, social engagements, and inspirational memes promoting unobtainable levels of self-worth and happiness.

I feel like a lot of Instagram pages are almost like that mirror in Harry Potter that shows you what you want more than anything else in the world. These people are posting the life they so desperately wish they were living, but outside of that digital space, they couldn't be further from it. They flood their feeds with positivity and support for the social flavor of the week because it's the closest they're ever going to get to doing something meaningful. It's the closest they're ever going to get to doing something impactful with their lives, and it tears them apart inside. And I think that's the crux of it all. I'm of the mind a lot of people think (exacerbated by the decline in religious affiliation) their life needs to have meaning, or that they need to do something worthwhile with their short time on Earth. A lot of people don't/aren't, and it's getting them down.

That's some good deep words right there.

And Social Media exacerbates the "Low-level psychological funk" by making it easier to compare your life to others, whom portray their lives as being all that, when in reality it's far from the truth.

It's like, people don't want to accept, Life isn't Butterfly's and Rainbows, all the time. It's serious, yet funny. It's simply complicated and complex simplicity.

So in other words just live your life the best way you can, as people will be people and you can only do what is best for you, and your family, or community. Worrying about others doesn't do anything to help yourself, as you're too busy worrying about them to worry about Yourself.


I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I