Author Topic: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?  (Read 3395 times)

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Offline Samsara

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Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« on: August 07, 2020, 09:34:19 AM »
This post was spurred a bit by a constant comment I see on DTF regarding Mike Portnoy and his "typical" drumming or fills.

Obviously, opinion is welcome, but I don't understand comments like this. It reeks of underhanded Portnoy bashing, no matter how artfully constructed those kind of comments are. Have we gotten so spoiled by the abilities of guys like Portnoy and others (I've seen it thrown at a bunch of different musicians on here) that we take it for granted?

I know the community here is full of great musicians. Some of whom have had incredible success. But newsflash, most of this commentary regarding Portnoy and his "typical" drumming comes from folks that will never achieve a fraction of the success MP has had, nor even sniff his ability level. It reeks of jealousy and pettiness.

Yes, as fans, we are consumers, and we have a "right" to express our opinions. I'm not saying that. But every single time something comes up with Portnoy playing, you see the constant comments of "typical." Well, what do you expect? The guy has been a professional touring progressive musician for 35 years. His style is cemented, what he does is cemented. Let's take another drummer -- Brann Dailor of Mastodon. Dude receives tons of praise. But honestly, while I love Brann, his drumming is fully established, and you hear similar fills and such throughout everything he plays on. Let's go another. My favorite drummer, personally -- Morgan Rose of Sevendust. I'm an uber Alien Freak fan of his drumming. But on everything he appears on, Morgan sounds like Morgan.

So simply put, I don't know what people expect from Mike Portnoy. He's one of the most talented and respected drummers in the history of heavy rock and progressive music. Criticism is a part of the gig, for sure. But this whole strain of "typical" comments regarding his playing is ridiculous.

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Offline TAC

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2020, 09:40:10 AM »
I hear you Brian.

I think a guy can only play drums so many ways, especially in a certain genre. Instead of "typical", I just prefer to call it his "style". And it's a style that made him my favorite drummer.

I enjoyed hearing MP on the new JP song. It felt familiar. I liked that.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2020, 09:45:09 AM »
Why a separate thread on this?

Offline The Walrus

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2020, 10:08:34 AM »
Bruh he's one of the world's most famous and prolific drummers. People like to talk about how musicians' playing styles evolve or change and in Portnoy's case it's a valid criticism that he's become a little predictable with respect to pulling out the same kind of fills and tricks, and he's gone on record about how he rarely practices or tries new things, so it's completely valid. I don't think anybody's going around just bashing him senselessly. Especially for fellow musicians, we like to talk about other musicians. This ain't nothing new for Mike, this subject's been going on for well over 10 years, maybe a lot longer than that even, and he certainly ain't the only one. It just comes with the territory of being a famous and well respected musician. Particularly one who has been praised and won so many awards like Mike. And perhaps because of that, the standard is elevated in his case. I dunno. But I think it's fair.

Edit: I have not heard the new JP song

Quote
But newsflash, most of this commentary regarding Portnoy and his "typical" drumming comes from folks that will never achieve a fraction of the success MP has had, nor even sniff his ability level. It reeks of jealousy and pettiness.

So success should make you immune from criticism, or it should sanitize all discussion of their playing? You can't criticize a musician unless you can play at their level? Nah fam. I'm nowhere near Jordan Rudess's piano skills, but I can criticize his playing.
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Offline HOF

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2020, 10:31:16 AM »
While I understand some of the criticisms about MP’s style and usual tricks, I do think it would be weird for MP to not be his trademarked self on a release like this. People are stoked about MP and JP being together again, so give the people what they want. But beyond that, it’s JP’s solo album, so I wouldn’t expect MP to outdo himself putting down some new and amazing drum techniques. His job here is to be somewhat predictable (could say the same about LaRue, who isn’t doing anything extra flashy).

Offline Adami

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2020, 10:34:02 AM »
Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.

Michael Romeo is one of the most repetitive guitarists I've ever heard. But he only releases an album every 3-4 years, so no one talks about it. If Michael Romeo released 4 albums per year, they'd be just as harsh about his bag of tricks as Portnoy.

And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.

If Portnoy released an album every 2 years, I doubt we'd be talking too much about it.
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Offline LCArenas

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2020, 10:49:17 AM »
Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.

Michael Romeo is one of the most repetitive guitarists I've ever heard. But he only releases an album every 3-4 years, so no one talks about it. If Michael Romeo released 4 albums per year, they'd be just as harsh about his bag of tricks as Portnoy.
My thoughts exactly.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2020, 11:01:43 AM »
And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.

The drumming in S2n and Pale Blue Dot is not pushing the envelope?

And for the topic of a drummer not sounding that much different over two decades, here's a 2002 Mangini:

Stones by Sal Difusco

And a 2018 Mangini:

Challenge Accepted by Into The Great Divide

If you're used to hearing MM, you would know it is him. But I would be hard pressed to say it's the same bag of tricks. And they are both work for hire gigs.

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2020, 11:04:02 AM »
And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.

The drumming in S2n and Pale Blue Dot is not pushing the envelope?

And for the topic of a drummer not sounding that much different over two decades, here's a 2002 Mangini:

Stones by Sal Difusco

And a 2018 Mangini:

Challenge Accepted by Into The Great Divide

If you're used to hearing MM, you would know it is him. But I would be hard pressed to say it's the same bag of tricks. And they are both work for hire gigs.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2020, 11:12:13 AM »
Is he changing up technical things? Sure.

Is his approach changing really? Nope. Same bag of tricks, just in a different sense than Portnoy.

Also, I shouldn't have to do a detailed analysis of his drumming and it's relation to each note being played to notice anything different. If you do, awesome, then that's perfect for you. But when it's a precondition in general, then it falls flat.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2020, 11:33:49 AM »
Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.

That's a great point Adami, and one I didn't consider - over-saturation. Still though, it seems sort of silly to me that people would complain about someone sounding like themselves. When I listen to a record I know has Portnoy on it, I expect...Portnoy.

When a new band starts out, all the musicians are developing their style. You hear changes in their style over the years. And at some point, they are just who they are, and that's what you expect when listening to them. They become themselves. I just think the "typical" comments are ridiculously unwarranted given the fact that established musicians are who they are.
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2020, 12:52:28 PM »
People have too high of expectations. There's only so much you can do with the drums especially thirty something years into your career. With that said, Portnoy hasn't really done much too impress me with his drumming lately but I also don't expect him to. It's not a bad thing or a good thing. It's just a thing.

Offline DTA

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2020, 02:08:36 PM »
My issue comes more with the "bang it out as quick as possible" mentality which results in a lot of repetition. I get that he's busy and involved in multiple projects, but more consideration towards writing unique drum parts would be beneficial towards making his performances stand out from album to album.

Offline Mladen

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2020, 02:33:40 PM »
I thought it was actually refreshing to hear Mike's signature patterns in combination with Petrucci's playing, we haven't experienced that in a while.

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2020, 02:40:53 PM »
It’s hilarious that MP would receive this criticism when far more famous drummers like Watts, Paice, McBrain, Ulrich, Travis etc have been doing the exact same things every record for up to 50 years or more.

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2020, 02:41:50 PM »
I actually think Nicko has gotten better with age.
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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2020, 02:42:55 PM »
I really don't know what the beef is about MP's "sound" or "style".  Fuck, every musician has a sound or style - whether playing or writing.  Anyone could pick out an Yngvie song/solo over a JP one from a police lineup.  Michael Anthony on the bass... pretty easy to identify. Same with Geddy.  Writing styles too - if you've heard one Magnus Karlsson album, you've heard 'em all (pretty sure I heard that from a fellow DTF poster recently).

So why any bellyachin over MP and his sound/style/repetitiveness?  1000s of artists could be accused as such.  Doesn't mean they aren't still awesome.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2020, 02:45:14 PM »
I really don't know what the beef is about MP's "sound" or "style".  Fuck, every musician has a sound or style - whether playing or writing.  Anyone could pick out an Yngvie song/solo over a JP one from a police lineup.  Michael Anthony on the bass... pretty easy to identify. Same with Geddy.  Writing styles too - if you've heard one Magnus Karlsson album, you've heard 'em all (pretty sure I heard that from a fellow DTF poster recently).

So why any bellyachin over MP and his sound/style/repetitiveness?  1000s of artists could be accused as such.  Doesn't mean they aren't still awesome.

That would be me, and I think it's a valid complaint of any artist who pretty much has one sound and hammers away at it with little or no deviation. Even some of my favorite acts are guilty of that. MK is awesome and writes great stuff from time to time but that's his biggest flaw. But to be fair that's a criticism that many in his genre bubble are guilty of and it's not THAT big a deal tbh

As has already been noted, I think the alleged bellyachin' is from how often MP releases albums, in other words it sounds like he phones in some of his parts, or that he's not putting in the time and effort he probably should
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2020, 05:23:21 PM »
Is he changing up technical things? Sure.

Is his approach changing really? Nope. Same bag of tricks, just in a different sense than Portnoy.

Also, I shouldn't have to do a detailed analysis of his drumming and it's relation to each note being played to notice anything different. If you do, awesome, then that's perfect for you. But when it's a precondition in general, then it falls flat.

I don't think you even listen to any track we offer to counter your arguments because you have always been preconceived to undermine Mangini in all your posts. Because if you really bother to listen to the tracks, you would be hard pressed to say with a straight face that the approach to the drums were the same.

Offline Adami

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2020, 05:41:50 PM »
Is he changing up technical things? Sure.

Is his approach changing really? Nope. Same bag of tricks, just in a different sense than Portnoy.

Also, I shouldn't have to do a detailed analysis of his drumming and it's relation to each note being played to notice anything different. If you do, awesome, then that's perfect for you. But when it's a precondition in general, then it falls flat.

I don't think you even listen to any track we offer to counter your arguments because you have always been preconceived to undermine Mangini in all your posts. Because if you really bother to listen to the tracks, you would be hard pressed to say with a straight face that the approach to the drums were the same.

I did listen. He did a cool little thing in the middle of the first one and a cool intro in the second. The rest? Sounds like typical Mangini.

Plus we can find a random MP song from 20 years ago and point out how diverse he is too. I’m talking about MM in DT since that’s mostly where I hear him. But the stuff you sent me sounds like (mostly) typical MM. I like the guy but his drumming stands out and I don’t feel his approach.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2020, 08:35:00 PM »
MP's drum sound did evolve a lot. His drums in Awake has lots of new elements not heard in I&W. His FII brought new elements not in Awake. It plateaud in SDOIT. From then on, you could pretty much say that that style became the MP signature that we can still hear today.

I actually miss the Awake-era MP and wish he could go back to that from time to time. That would be a pleasant surprise.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2020, 08:51:01 PM »
I like Portnoy's typical drumming, I go to Portnoy for it, I'd be rather confused if I went to Portnoy and found someone else's drumming.
This kinda goes for all musicians as far as I'm concerned, that's why I shrug when a band puts an album out and people would go "It sounds like the stuff they did before", yeah that's why I got it, cause I liked the stuff from before and I wanted more of it, when I want something different I go to a different band.
I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".
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Offline TAC

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2020, 08:56:50 PM »

I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".

Right?

You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2020, 09:14:06 PM »
:lol
And it goes the other way around too! I cannot think of a band that significantly altered their sound and kept me on board. Most notably happens when a prog metal band goes full on metal, now THAT is like walking into the baker's to get your warm fresh loaf of bread and finding meat hanging from hooks everywhere.
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Offline Dedalus

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2020, 02:15:53 AM »
1. Why does this bother you so much? For every comment like that, there is a bigger fraction of people who don't care about that "typical" thing and a MUCH bigger fraction of people who have zero critical sense about anything that Portnoy does (It's always "marvellous"). So, he will have much more applause than recriminations.

2. It is funny how the main and most valid criticism against Portnoy is considered absurd. Sounds like a "don't criticize Portnoy's drumming"

3. Over-saturation is the key, as you already noticed. He chose to bet on the quantity and boasts about it. OK. But can't we even say that he is repeating itself (4/5 times a year)?

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2020, 02:41:34 AM »
2. It is funny how the main and most valid criticism against Portnoy is considered absurd. Sounds like a "don't criticize Portnoy's drumming"
Saying that it "reeks of underhanded Portnoy bashing no matter how artfully constructed those kind of comments are" definitely gives off that impression, yes.

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2020, 07:16:00 AM »
Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.

Michael Romeo is one of the most repetitive guitarists I've ever heard. But he only releases an album every 3-4 years, so no one talks about it. If Michael Romeo released 4 albums per year, they'd be just as harsh about his bag of tricks as Portnoy.

And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.

If Portnoy released an album every 2 years, I doubt we'd be talking too much about it.

I think you nailed and truthfully I've been guilty of accusation MP of the same thing but I was also listening to a lot of MP releases. It's unrealistic to expect every fill to be unique, fresh, and new. Additionally, given enough releases everyone will sound like they are pulling from their tried and true bag of tricks. I can make the same argument for JR. For all his technical prowess he always resorts to keyboard wankery. I remember years back he release solo piano performance album and every song started with him playing a beautiful melody followed by a flurry of notes. That's his style

If MP wants to keep playing the same fills on 12 releases a year, more power to him, I don't have to listen to it if it bothers me that much.

Offline emtee

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2020, 09:18:59 AM »
No other drummer--including the legends, Peart, Bonham, Collins, etc.--has influenced me more than Portnoy. In my playing days anyways. With eager anticipation, I would await all his new albums, looking forward to hearing what he would come up with. Often I would hear something that would cause me to hit the rewind arrow over and over until I figured it out. Or, sometimes, it would take me weeks to dissect what he had done. Over the years a combination of things happened. 1) I became familiar with his style and it was easier for me to determine what he had done. 2) He said that the (partly pressure from his fans and also self-imposed) need to continually outdo what he had previously done, became burdensome and stressful. I think it may have been at this juncture that he decided to give it 100% but not try to kill himself creating new and unique approaches and fills. I will admit that I do miss the OMG reactions I used to get when I heard a new DT album for the first few times but he's just a human--a man like all of us who strives to give his all on each and every recorded project and even more so, in live performances. One of my favorite drummers is Martin Lopez. That dude always seems to do things that make me go--WHOA! However, he hasn't recorded a zillion albums like Portnoy. I love Mike for who he is and what he has given me over the years--hundreds if not thousands of hours of listening pleasure. He will always be one of my idols. I'm rambling. It's time to go!

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2020, 10:05:39 AM »

I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".

Right?

You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol

"How's the bread?"

"Same."

"Good. I'm glad you like it."

"*sigh* I guess."

"What? You don't like it?"

"It's fine. It's just the same bread I always get."

"Oh. Well, here...try this bread."

"NO! I want the same bread but different!"


Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2020, 05:52:07 AM »

I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".

Right?

You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol

"How's the bread?"

"Same."

"Good. I'm glad you like it."

"*sigh* I guess."

"What? You don't like it?"

"It's fine. It's just the same bread I always get."

"Oh. Well, here...try this bread."

"NO! I want the same bread but different!"


This post is the money shot in this thread.  :tup

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2020, 07:03:05 AM »
Yeah.

I don't get this Portnoy-super-crit. I understand feeling underwhelmed that musicians get samey after decades but, you know, bad luck.

But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2020, 07:46:33 AM »
I feel like it can be fair to complain about an artist doing the same old thing but it depends on the situation. MP to me does not feel like a 'pushing boundaries' guy and I feel like he's been doing his thing pretty safely for a long time so I wouldn't listen to a new song of his and expect something out of the ordinary. But with that said I think people bring up a good point that he puts out like 5 albums a year with different projects so I guess it's over saturation.

With some bands like AC/DC or Iron Maiden who have built their careers on an easily identifiable sound, getting a 'typical' album would be what you expect and probably want. Then there's other bands who have made it their thing of trying different things or switching gears a lot and in those cases, getting a 'typical' album might be a let down. I feel like the argument could be fair as criticism but it also depends a bit on the situation.

Offline TAC

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2020, 08:04:42 AM »

But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!

I think Nicko is one of the most "musical" drummers going, and I think he has actually pushed himself to be better during the Reunion Era.



would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Mladen

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2020, 08:11:11 AM »
But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
I wasn't aware of this fill until a drummer friend of mine pointed out to me that the fill is featured on pretty much every mid tempo Maiden song of the last twenty years. It's pretty hilarious when you think about it, but then again, it's such a signature fill that fits the beat and the vibe of the songs perfectly every time.

Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Portnoy's Typical "drumming" etc. - enough please?
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2020, 02:07:55 PM »

But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!

I think Nicko is one of the most "musical" drummers going, and I think he has actually pushed himself to be better during the Reunion Era.

I think he's great and I hear that push on BNW and DOD but not since. Great groove, tho. I mean, he's is the backbone of the Maiden rhythm section, right?

But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
I wasn't aware of this fill until a drummer friend of mine pointed out to me that the fill is featured on pretty much every mid tempo Maiden song of the last twenty years. It's pretty hilarious when you think about it, but then again, it's such a signature fill that fits the beat and the vibe of the songs perfectly every time.

I'm not a drummer but always listen hard to the drums. I've definitely had my, err, fill of this fill.  ;)
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