Author Topic: Abortion question  (Read 635 times)

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Abortion question
« on: July 24, 2020, 09:56:09 AM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2020, 09:58:57 AM »
Not all of us believe in the soul.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2020, 10:01:00 AM »
As a dude, I can't for one second put myself in the shoes a woman who has been raped and impregnated. If she feels an abortion is the right solution to a problem that she was forced into, I have to trust that she's correct and content with her decision. Even if she were to put the baby up for adoption, she's got to carry that trauma around for 9 months, and risks her own health because of the actions of some shithead.

Online Adami

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2020, 10:01:32 AM »
I mean, fair questions, but I'm not sure asking a bunch of men is the best way to get anywhere.

Do any women even post here anymore? I'd ask some women.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2020, 10:24:48 AM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?

Ben, I am enormously sympathetic to your post here. 

Largely I feel the same way.  I think abortion is a disgusting and immoral thing but I also don't believe there should be any laws one way or the other and certainly no mandates on doctors.

I am also very religious and believe in the soul.  And you're right, we will never know that point at which the soul enters the body.  My personal assumption is within days or weeks right before birth.  But that is neither hear nor there.

On the subject of rape, this is one of two areas where I think abortion is justified.  I just don't think a woman should feel obligated to carry a baby to full term in this circumstance.  She would be reminded for 9 months strait what some monster did to her.  The resulting mental and emotional damage on top of what resulted from the rape itself sounds completely unbarable to me.  Not to mention she would probably loath what's inside of her.

Now, none of this is the baby's fault of course.  It's just a new life that wants to grow and develope and come into this world.  And the thought of extinguishing that innocense makes me sick to the stomache.  But the physical, mental, and emotional attack on the mother takes the high road in my view.  Plus once this baby is born, there is a high likelyhood that nobody will want it and maybe even hate it even though it did nothing wrong.  But what kind of life is that?  Not one I would wish on anybody.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2020, 12:39:59 PM »
So I've been the male party to two abortions, and she had them because that's what she wanted to do, my opinion doesn't enter the equation. It's her body, it's her domain.

As to the rape question, I couldn't imagine (and I am a survivor) not only having a living, breathing reminder of that horror, but also having to love it to the extreme that a parent does. Though, again and as Chino stated, it's not my body and it's not my choice.

Maybe if we as a culture could demoralize sex and heighten education about it and of birth control, abortion would become a thing of the past.

Online Stadler

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2020, 12:42:23 PM »
But... there's always a but...

If you really do believe that abortion is wrong, but that we don't have the right to tell others what is "right" or "wrong" for them (which is where I'm at too, by the way; I am adamently pro-choice, even if I have a hard time myself with the idea of abortion), then the only answer that matters is "because they decided to."    The "why's" don't matter.  The victim of a rape could do it because their life WAS in danger, they don't have the resources to raise (or even birth) the child, they don't want to be reminded of the horror of that incident, they don't want the stress and trauma on their body to inform the health of the baby, they don't want to take the chance that the kid will be predisposed of rape... any of those reasons, or, because it's their choice, no reason at all.  Because it's Friday. 

We (meaning society, not us here) don't get to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body, and she doesn't have to explain what she does do with it.

Offline lonestar

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2020, 12:43:12 PM »
Not all of us believe in the soul.

This...


And most importantly this...

I mean, fair questions, but I'm not sure asking a bunch of men is the best way to get anywhere.

Do any women even post here anymore? I'd ask some women.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2020, 12:47:18 PM »
But... there's always a but...

If you really do believe that abortion is wrong, but that we don't have the right to tell others what is "right" or "wrong" for them (which is where I'm at too, by the way; I am adamently pro-choice, even if I have a hard time myself with the idea of abortion), then the only answer that matters is "because they decided to."    The "why's" don't matter.  The victim of a rape could do it because their life WAS in danger, they don't have the resources to raise (or even birth) the child, they don't want to be reminded of the horror of that incident, they don't want the stress and trauma on their body to inform the health of the baby, they don't want to take the chance that the kid will be predisposed of rape... any of those reasons, or, because it's their choice, no reason at all.  Because it's Friday. 

We (meaning society, not us here) don't get to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body, and she doesn't have to explain what she does do with it.
This is a very good point. I'm hesitant to bring it up because I don't want to trample on Ben's thread, but it's also one of the new battle lines in the debates. States are now looking to ban abortions based on the rationale behind them.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2020, 02:15:16 PM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?

Ben, I am enormously sympathetic to your post here. 

Largely I feel the same way.  I think abortion is a disgusting and immoral thing but I also don't believe there should be any laws one way or the other and certainly no mandates on doctors.

I am also very religious and believe in the soul.  And you're right, we will never know that point at which the soul enters the body.  My personal assumption is within days or weeks right before birth.  But that is neither hear nor there.

On the subject of rape, this is one of two areas where I think abortion is justified.  I just don't think a woman should feel obligated to carry a baby to full term in this circumstance.  She would be reminded for 9 months strait what some monster did to her.  The resulting mental and emotional damage on top of what resulted from the rape itself sounds completely unbarable to me.  Not to mention she would probably loath what's inside of her.

Now, none of this is the baby's fault of course.  It's just a new life that wants to grow and develope and come into this world.  And the thought of extinguishing that innocense makes me sick to the stomache.  But the physical, mental, and emotional attack on the mother takes the high road in my view.  Plus once this baby is born, there is a high likelyhood that nobody will want it and maybe even hate it even though it did nothing wrong.  But what kind of life is that?  Not one I would wish on anybody.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Since we do know exactly this. Why aren't there places that can be there for women when a situation like this occurs. To be there emotionally and get them through the trauma they experienced.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2020, 02:21:53 PM »
But... there's always a but...

If you really do believe that abortion is wrong, but that we don't have the right to tell others what is "right" or "wrong" for them (which is where I'm at too, by the way; I am adamently pro-choice, even if I have a hard time myself with the idea of abortion), then the only answer that matters is "because they decided to."    The "why's" don't matter.  The victim of a rape could do it because their life WAS in danger, they don't have the resources to raise (or even birth) the child, they don't want to be reminded of the horror of that incident, they don't want the stress and trauma on their body to inform the health of the baby, they don't want to take the chance that the kid will be predisposed of rape... any of those reasons, or, because it's their choice, no reason at all.  Because it's Friday. 

We (meaning society, not us here) don't get to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body, and she doesn't have to explain what she does do with it.
This is a very good point. I'm hesitant to bring it up because I don't want to trample on Ben's thread, but it's also one of the new battle lines in the debates. States are now looking to ban abortions based on the rationale behind them.

That's kind of why I brought it up.

There are women who are against abortions. Angela Stanton being one and she's running for congress.

She sees it the way I do, as a spiritual person.

I do understand it's a major major hot topic.

But... there's always a but...

If you really do believe that abortion is wrong, but that we don't have the right to tell others what is "right" or "wrong" for them (which is where I'm at too, by the way; I am adamently pro-choice, even if I have a hard time myself with the idea of abortion), then the only answer that matters is "because they decided to."    The "why's" don't matter.  The victim of a rape could do it because their life WAS in danger, they don't have the resources to raise (or even birth) the child, they don't want to be reminded of the horror of that incident, they don't want the stress and trauma on their body to inform the health of the baby, they don't want to take the chance that the kid will be predisposed of rape... any of those reasons, or, because it's their choice, no reason at all.  Because it's Friday. 

We (meaning society, not us here) don't get to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body, and she doesn't have to explain what she does do with it.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I wanted women's thoughts and views of the spiritual side of Abortion, because it's a big part of why people are against it straight u going to lengths to prevent it from being done at all.

Its just a question meant for women, but I could see how they can take it the wrong way, as it is an Arrogant question.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2020, 02:25:18 PM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?

Ben, I am enormously sympathetic to your post here. 

Largely I feel the same way.  I think abortion is a disgusting and immoral thing but I also don't believe there should be any laws one way or the other and certainly no mandates on doctors.

I am also very religious and believe in the soul.  And you're right, we will never know that point at which the soul enters the body.  My personal assumption is within days or weeks right before birth.  But that is neither hear nor there.

On the subject of rape, this is one of two areas where I think abortion is justified.  I just don't think a woman should feel obligated to carry a baby to full term in this circumstance.  She would be reminded for 9 months strait what some monster did to her.  The resulting mental and emotional damage on top of what resulted from the rape itself sounds completely unbarable to me.  Not to mention she would probably loath what's inside of her.

Now, none of this is the baby's fault of course.  It's just a new life that wants to grow and develope and come into this world.  And the thought of extinguishing that innocense makes me sick to the stomache.  But the physical, mental, and emotional attack on the mother takes the high road in my view.  Plus once this baby is born, there is a high likelyhood that nobody will want it and maybe even hate it even though it did nothing wrong.  But what kind of life is that?  Not one I would wish on anybody.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Since we do know exactly this. Why aren't there places that can be there for women when a situation like this occurs. To be there emotionally and get them through the trauma they experienced.


With all due respect, why should the woman need to go through it in the first place, with or without emotional support? If someone feels as you do, life begins at conception, then there are plenty of women in penguin suits that would love to minister to them. A woman with no such spiritual belief has no need to tough it out.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2020, 03:16:36 PM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?

Ben, I am enormously sympathetic to your post here. 

Largely I feel the same way.  I think abortion is a disgusting and immoral thing but I also don't believe there should be any laws one way or the other and certainly no mandates on doctors.

I am also very religious and believe in the soul.  And you're right, we will never know that point at which the soul enters the body.  My personal assumption is within days or weeks right before birth.  But that is neither hear nor there.

On the subject of rape, this is one of two areas where I think abortion is justified.  I just don't think a woman should feel obligated to carry a baby to full term in this circumstance.  She would be reminded for 9 months strait what some monster did to her.  The resulting mental and emotional damage on top of what resulted from the rape itself sounds completely unbarable to me.  Not to mention she would probably loath what's inside of her.

Now, none of this is the baby's fault of course.  It's just a new life that wants to grow and develope and come into this world.  And the thought of extinguishing that innocense makes me sick to the stomache.  But the physical, mental, and emotional attack on the mother takes the high road in my view.  Plus once this baby is born, there is a high likelyhood that nobody will want it and maybe even hate it even though it did nothing wrong.  But what kind of life is that?  Not one I would wish on anybody.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Since we do know exactly this. Why aren't there places that can be there for women when a situation like this occurs. To be there emotionally and get them through the trauma they experienced.


With all due respect, why should the woman need to go through it in the first place, with or without emotional support? If someone feels as you do, life begins at conception, then there are plenty of women in penguin suits that would love to minister to them. A woman with no such spiritual belief has no need to tough it out.

Exactly, women shouldn't have to but it's happening and that is the reality.

So what could be done that women want to be done that will erase and stop this abuse.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Northern Lion

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2020, 03:36:26 PM »
No doubt this is ugly no matter how you slice it.

I would assume that there already are places for women who are raped to get support/council.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds like something we would already have in place right?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2020, 03:42:38 PM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?

Ben, I am enormously sympathetic to your post here. 

Largely I feel the same way.  I think abortion is a disgusting and immoral thing but I also don't believe there should be any laws one way or the other and certainly no mandates on doctors.

I am also very religious and believe in the soul.  And you're right, we will never know that point at which the soul enters the body.  My personal assumption is within days or weeks right before birth.  But that is neither hear nor there.

On the subject of rape, this is one of two areas where I think abortion is justified.  I just don't think a woman should feel obligated to carry a baby to full term in this circumstance.  She would be reminded for 9 months strait what some monster did to her.  The resulting mental and emotional damage on top of what resulted from the rape itself sounds completely unbarable to me.  Not to mention she would probably loath what's inside of her.

Now, none of this is the baby's fault of course.  It's just a new life that wants to grow and develope and come into this world.  And the thought of extinguishing that innocense makes me sick to the stomache.  But the physical, mental, and emotional attack on the mother takes the high road in my view.  Plus once this baby is born, there is a high likelyhood that nobody will want it and maybe even hate it even though it did nothing wrong.  But what kind of life is that?  Not one I would wish on anybody.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Since we do know exactly this. Why aren't there places that can be there for women when a situation like this occurs. To be there emotionally and get them through the trauma they experienced.


With all due respect, why should the woman need to go through it in the first place, with or without emotional support? If someone feels as you do, life begins at conception, then there are plenty of women in penguin suits that would love to minister to them. A woman with no such spiritual belief has no need to tough it out.

Exactly, women shouldn't have to but it's happening and that is the reality.

So what could be done that women want to be done that will erase and stop this abuse.
Um, you kind of lost me here. Abuse? What abuse are we talking about? From my point of view, the aforementioned penguins, or their proselytizing enablers, bullying and badgering a woman to carry the progeny of a rape to term is damn sure abusive, but I don't think that's what you're getting at. The problem Northern Lion was getting at is only an issue if the woman can't have an abortion.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Chino

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Re: Abortion question
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2020, 03:59:18 PM »
I asked this on Facebook and got blasted....

"My views...

Abortion...

I am pro-choice, but against abortion.

I feel the government has no right to make a law demanding or denying doctors to perform Abortions.

If a doctor doesn't want to perform an Abortion, he shouldn't have to. But if one does, then he shouldn't be denied. If you, CHOOSE, to get one good luck finding a doctor who will.

Now, being a spiritual person. If the soul/spirit enters the womb at a certain moment during pregnancy, at exactly what point does it enter the womb? The reality is, we don't and will never know. Life is sacred, and any life shouldn't be denied.
 
Which brings me to a question I need asked. Why do victims of Rape abort their babies? And what are the reasons people abort babies, besides not wanting one or due to the life threatening situation of the mother?"

I explained it all and wanted to get women's views and thoughts on this.

They mainly told me. I shouldn't be asking this question because I'm a man and wouldn't understand? Can anyone help me with this logic? I'm like...what?

Ben, I am enormously sympathetic to your post here. 

Largely I feel the same way.  I think abortion is a disgusting and immoral thing but I also don't believe there should be any laws one way or the other and certainly no mandates on doctors.

I am also very religious and believe in the soul.  And you're right, we will never know that point at which the soul enters the body.  My personal assumption is within days or weeks right before birth.  But that is neither hear nor there.

On the subject of rape, this is one of two areas where I think abortion is justified.  I just don't think a woman should feel obligated to carry a baby to full term in this circumstance.  She would be reminded for 9 months strait what some monster did to her.  The resulting mental and emotional damage on top of what resulted from the rape itself sounds completely unbarable to me.  Not to mention she would probably loath what's inside of her.

Now, none of this is the baby's fault of course.  It's just a new life that wants to grow and develope and come into this world.  And the thought of extinguishing that innocense makes me sick to the stomache.  But the physical, mental, and emotional attack on the mother takes the high road in my view.  Plus once this baby is born, there is a high likelyhood that nobody will want it and maybe even hate it even though it did nothing wrong.  But what kind of life is that?  Not one I would wish on anybody.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Since we do know exactly this. Why aren't there places that can be there for women when a situation like this occurs. To be there emotionally and get them through the trauma they experienced.

There are. There are support groups, defense attorneys, and abortion clinics.