Cyril's Lead-Filled Roulette! (Post-Roulette)

[eric42434224]

I read this thread, and agree with many here that there was fault, and misunderstanding from both sides.  I think being open minded and really trying to see things from others viewpoints is essential.  I have learned A LOT during the racial unrest from listening directly from black co-workers and friends.  I think both parties are doing well in coming around to an understanding here, and kudos to them for doing so.  It is easy to let things blow out of proportion initially, and even easier to allow them to become permanent....so the de-escalation (along with help from others) is great.

My one suggestion is in regards to apologies....the person apologizing should not make the determination on what/how/why the other person should accept.  One should try not to qualify or condition an apology.  Also, one should not vent in another thread about it, as it can undermine the apology.  I get the interaction was frustrating, on both sides, but posting that frustration in another thread (even if it is a thread where the topic is venting) is counterproductive to the discussion.  This is NOT a personal attack, but just an observation, and my commenting on it spawns from a similar issue with apologies IRL for me. 

Regardless, this is ongoing to a degree, but kudos on participants and other posters on diffusing an emotion filled dust up on a sensitive topic.

[Sacul]

I do not like the policing of comedy nor agree with it at all. But I apologized for causing offense and said I wouldn't make those jokes again in this thread. That should be plenty acceptable, and I feel that's a valid expression of remorse. Cyril does not have to accept it but it sure would be nice if he did so it would put my mind to rest on the issue.

I agree it's a valid apology on the one hand, but on the other hand, while I kinda agree that policing comedy might not always be right, what you're trying to defend is a dumb edgy joke. I used to make lots of those not so long ago and I wonder what I even found funny on them, but then I also follow plenty of ironic meme pages that mock both consertatives and libtards so my taste is all over the place

[The Walrus]

EDIT: Nevermind. I'm just waiting patiently for Cyril to respond to me, if he will at all. I do not like people disliking me especially when I feel it's not justified. I want to hash this out like adults, with civility and respect. That's all.

[eric42434224]

But you're not a comedian, and this isn't about censorship of jokes.  It is about a joke you made to a friend.  One you had NO idea would be an issue, and clearly made with no ill intent.  But sometimes jokes that we dont know are offensive, and are made with no ill intent, can still hurt others.
If you are truly friends, it is about quickly realizing that you said something that really offended your friend, regardless of why.  This is where you take the value of your friendship and his feelings over a philosophical free speech hill to die on.  JMO.

EDIT....you edited your post, removing your defense of comedy.  I will leave this here, as it is still relevant.  I also apologize for posting in a thread I am not really a participant in.  This was obviously referenced in another thread, and I find it is a very pertinent topic these days.

[ariich]

I'm not in this roulette but found out about this from another thread.

I think ariich and Sacul have mostly said what I would have said.  I don't believe I know anyone who is trans, but I have some gay relatives and we've talked about this sort of thing and I've learned from them.  I talked this thread over with them.  Obviously, they don't speak for the entire LGBTQ community, but feel like what they have to say would be agreed on by most.  Their position is essentially:

Don't use that meme, regardless of intent.  The person who sent it clearly (to them) didn't have ill intent, and that does matter, especially in how you should approach that person.  But they should still be made aware that it's harmful to trans people whether they meant it like that or not, and they should please refrain from using it.  Similarly, don't jokingly misgender someone (what Cyril did with again, what they believe no ill intent).  Men calling each other women, even or especially in a joking way among friends, reinforces both transphobia but also homophobia as well.  Reinforces stereotypes.  Some who were asking Katt not to use the meme might react to this last bit by saying "that's ridiculous."  They might balk at the idea because they've done it all their lives.  That doesn't mean someone else (not just Katt) should seize on that with "if they're not going to change, neither am I" and justify using the meme or saying similar things.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Instead, recognize that as ariich said, this is a process for everyone.  It's engrained and takes time to change.  Sometimes people will screw up.  Some people will take time to come around, but hopefully they will.  Hold each other accountable but treat each other kindly.


Me: in general, I try and will try harder to take that above advice.  Maybe we all can.  Ariich has done the moderating and I don't think I could say anything that he's said better.  Kattelox is a friend and I think he's a good person.  It would be nice if both could move on but I get that a lot has been said and maybe it's not so bad to take a break from each other (in your roulettes) and let some time pass.

Lethean, I just want to say thanks for this incredibly respectful and thoughtful post, it's much appreciated.

But you're not a comedian, and this isn't about censorship of jokes.  It is about a joke you made to a friend.  One you had NO idea would be an issue.
If you are truly friends, it is about quickly realizing that you said something that really offended your friend, regardless of why.  This is where you take the value of your friendship and his feelings over a philosophical free speech hill to die on.  JMO.

This is a good point too.


Re "policing comedy", I'm not sure that's fair. Telling jokes like that isn't illegal, it's not against the DTF rules, and there's been no suggestion of any punishment for the joke itself. Free speech means one *can* say whatever they like, but it doesn't mean it's necessarily always a wise thing to do.

[The Walrus]

I disagree with this double standard of comedy that only comedians or open mic warriors or anybody who gets on a stage has the freedom to make fun of anything, and us average Joes don't. There are people out there who don't even agree with that, and want professional comedians to toe certain lines.

We can have different senses of humor. That's fine. But don't tell me what is or isn't funny to me and then tell me an apology isn't good enough, when I apologized for causing offense, but the 'key' to my vindication is to change my sense of humor to what the offending party finds acceptable. I'm not going to do that, that isn't fair.

[eric42434224]

I disagree with this double standard of comedy that only comedians or open mic warriors or anybody who gets on a stage has the freedom to make fun of anything, and us average Joes can't.

We can have different senses of humor. That's fine. But don't tell me what is or isn't funny to me and then tell me an apology isn't good enough if I don't condemn the joke in question.

I think you might have missed the point Ariich just stated.  You ARE free to post your joke.  No one said you cant.  But that joke can be legitimately offensive to people....and in this case a friend.  Why would anyone want to post a joke that hurts their friend?  Because the have a "right" to?
Now we clearly know that you didnt know the joke was offensive to Cyril and others, and that you had no ill intent.  But NOW YOU DO.  And to continue to argue that you have the "right" to tell the joke severely misses the point, and makes it look like that point is more important than your friendship.

EDIT to your edit.  And no one is telling you to change ANYTHING about your sense of humor.  That is way off.  But words have consequences, and the relationships you have can be affected by those words.  Your choice as to which is more important.....one joke, or a friend.

[The Walrus]

I disagree with this double standard of comedy that only comedians or open mic warriors or anybody who gets on a stage has the freedom to make fun of anything, and us average Joes can't.

We can have different senses of humor. That's fine. But don't tell me what is or isn't funny to me and then tell me an apology isn't good enough if I don't condemn the joke in question.

I think you might have missed the point Ariich just stated.  You ARE free to post your joke.  No one said you cant.  But that joke can be legitimately offensive to people....and in this case a friend.  Why would anyone want to post a joke that hurts their friend?  Because the have a "right" to?
Now we clearly know that you didnt know the joke was offensive to Cyril and others, and that you had no ill intent.  But NOW YOU DO.  And to continue to argue that you have the "right" to tell the joke severely misses the point, and makes it look like that point is more important than your friendship.

But I do have every right to tell the joke. I'm not arguing for the privilege to continue making it in this thread. I'm arguing that it's not fair to hold me to this standard that an apology is only acceptable if I change my sense of humor and admit that the joke is "never okay to use, ever" which is not something I believe. But just because I don't believe that does not mean I'm filled with hate or transphobic. I have bent over backwards to show remorse for upsetting people, Cyril in particular, and said I wouldn't post the offending material again. Why is that not good enough? I have already been punished by being removed from the roulette and taking a metaphorical beating from the public here.

I am watching myself fall into a trap of defending myself repeatedly but I am just making the same points over and over again, so I think I should just... stop now, I guess. I can only say it so many ways, but I know I'm a decent, good person, so if I have to live with this, so be it.

[eric42434224]

I disagree with this double standard of comedy that only comedians or open mic warriors or anybody who gets on a stage has the freedom to make fun of anything, and us average Joes can't.

We can have different senses of humor. That's fine. But don't tell me what is or isn't funny to me and then tell me an apology isn't good enough if I don't condemn the joke in question.

I think you might have missed the point Ariich just stated.  You ARE free to post your joke.  No one said you cant.  But that joke can be legitimately offensive to people....and in this case a friend.  Why would anyone want to post a joke that hurts their friend?  Because the have a "right" to?
Now we clearly know that you didnt know the joke was offensive to Cyril and others, and that you had no ill intent.  But NOW YOU DO.  And to continue to argue that you have the "right" to tell the joke severely misses the point, and makes it look like that point is more important than your friendship.

But I do have every right to tell the joke. I'm not arguing for the privilege to continue making it in this thread. I'm arguing that it's not fair to hold me to this standard that an apology is only acceptable if I change my sense of humor and admit that the joke is "never okay to use, ever" which is not something I believe. But just because I don't believe that does not mean I'm filled with hate or transphobic. I have bent over backwards to show remorse for upsetting people, Cyril in particular, and said I wouldn't post the offending material again. Why is that not good enough? I have already been punished by being removed from the roulette and taking a metaphorical beating from the public here.

No one is saying you dont have the right to say anything you want here, within forum rules of course.  That is just a straw man you are constructing.  No one is holding your apology to Cyril to any standard.....but you shouldn't expect Cyril to accept an apology for using a joke that was deeply offensive to him, and then continue to argue over your right to use it.  Apologizing and promising not to use the joke, then arguing your right to use it, is not apologizing, and certainly not "bending over backwards showing remorse for upsetting people".
Sometimes winning an argument is not winning.  No one is arguing free speech....we are discussing courtesy for the feelings of your friend.

[eric42434224]

double post sorry

[Indiscipline]

Mike, I believe you are a good man and I am fond of both you and Cyril. Now, about comedy, can I offer a professional's view?

I don't wish to patronise, but as a comedian in musical theater - i.e. not only making jokes for different audiences, but doing it while working, traveling and living with people who are 80% gay - I have a horrendous amount of experience in incidents like this one, and maybe I can provide some perspective.

What did I learn, often in tears because clashing with people I love?

When you make a joke to a friend, you're not making comedy. He's not paid to listen to your idea of funny and fock off if he feels offended by it. You do it to have a mutual good time. If your friend is hurt by it, the only thing at stake is his feelings, not your philosophy of comedy.

Mind you, I am not accusing you of the fallout. You guys both did a piss poor job communicating, and once Cyril booted you out and gave the impression of giving a label, he dumped every possibility of really making you even consider that a weaponised (not by you) joke becomes a de facto weapon in the victim's eye, usually for a shitload of time.

Apologies and peace can truly only happen talking the issue in trust and good faith to teach and learn, without being sidetracked by noise like transphobic labelling or comedy policing.
 


I've been taught (by comedians) that comedy refuses policing because it's been policing itself for a couple of millennia with one simple rule:

Always make fun of what one does, never of what one is.

[eric42434224]

I am watching myself fall into a trap of defending myself repeatedly but I am just making the same points over and over again, so I think I should just... stop now, I guess. I can only say it so many ways, but I know I'm a decent, good person, so if I have to live with this, so be it.

Then stop being defensive by feeling you have to defend yourself!  You didn't do anything wrong initially.  You did not know it was offensive.  You have no ill intent.
But no one is saying you don't have free speech, or have to change your sense of humor.....continuing to argue those things undermines your apology to your friend.  Don't choose your right to say a joke you don't care about, over the relationship to a person you do.
I have no doubt you are a good person, and I don't think anyone on this board thinks otherwise.  That isn't what this is about....and if you make it about that, you make it personal.

EDIT: Indiscipline's post is SPOT ON.

[The Walrus]

Always make fun of what one does, never of what one is.

I can think of dozens of legendary, world famous, still touring comedians whose entire careers violate this mantra.

[ariich]

Just to be really clear about this Katt, not one person is saying you should change your sense of humour.

Also I'd like to highlight something important you posted:

when I apologized for causing offense

Actually, at the time you didn't although I don't doubt that you intended to given the conversation we've been having since - I think this might be the first time you've unequivocally said this (you had it in your previous post that you deleted too). At the time you apologised "to anyone who took offence" and said "sorry you got offended" - the language that implicitly puts the onus on the offended (and I noted at the time that such language doesn't really constitute a proper apology). You now being clear that you are apologise for causing the offence is a perhaps subtle but definitely important distinction, so thank you for that.


Also one other thing I've been reflecting on:

Similarly, don't jokingly misgender someone (what Cyril did with again, what they believe no ill intent).  Men calling each other women, even or especially in a joking way among friends, reinforces both transphobia but also homophobia as well.  Reinforces stereotypes. 

Katt made this argument previously and I didn't disagree with it but I don't think I gave it enough consideration. On one hand, calling someone "dudette" arguably doesn't come with the same connotations as that meme. But on the other hand, it is technically misgendering someone for humour and so I think I need to change how I think about that too. So I'd like to thank Lethean for raising this point, and I'd also like to apologise to Katt for not giving it sufficient credit previously.

[The Walrus]

I feel like I've posted "I apologize for upsetting/causing offense" or some variation like six or seven times today alone.

[eric42434224]

Always make fun of what one does, never of what one is.

I can think of dozens of legendary, world famous, still touring comedians whose entire careers violate this mantra.

This is part of the problem.  Indiscipline writes a great post, with many take-away's that can improve your situation and knowledge.  And all you do is pick one sentence where you can disagree with him in a non productive manner. 

I feel like I've posted "I apologize for upsetting/causing offense" or some variation like six or seven times today alone.

Sometimes what we feel or think, is not always accurate.  Also, apologizing for doing xyz, then having lengthy discussions on why you have the right to do xyz, tends to severely undermine the apology.

[The Walrus]

Always make fun of what one does, never of what one is.

I can think of dozens of legendary, world famous, still touring comedians whose entire careers violate this mantra.

This is part of the problem.  Indiscipline writes a great post, with many take-away's that can improve your situation and knowledge.  And all you do is pick one sentence where you can disagree with him in a non productive manner.

I believe Indi knows that I pay full attention to his posts. I didn't comment on the rest because I didn't have a disagreement with them, because he covered those points well enough, and, importantly, the thing he said resonated deeply with me based on my views on humor, and the quoted part was the crux of much of his post. Don't assume I'm being flippant, please. You do that with me a lot, and I'm not here to argue with you. Please, I am desperately asking you not to do that.

[ariich]

I feel like I've posted "I apologize for upsetting/causing offense" or some variation like six or seven times today alone.

Actually yes you're right, looking back over your posts from today, you have indeed been saying that, so I was wrong to say you hadn't said it before that post I quoted. But my point about the nature of the apology at the time is still valid.


EDIT: Also I would like to back Katt up on the fact that he isn't flippant about this stuff, but he and I have discussed the fact that some of his posts have given that impression.

[The Walrus]

If it seems like I was ignoring Indi at all, it's probably because I am utterly exhausted of talking about this. I'm exasperated and don't know what to do so I guess that's that. So... yeah. Hey, anyone know of any roulettes going on...?

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

I feel like I've posted "I apologize for upsetting/causing offense" or some variation like six or seven times today alone.

EDIT: Also I would like to back Katt up on the fact that he isn't flippant about this stuff, but he and I have discussed the fact that some of his posts have given that impression.

All I can say is, it's tough to convey intent, emotion, and meaning through only text on the internet.

[KevShmev]

As an outside observer, Walrus/Kattlelox, I think your stance and the way you have handled this has mostly been fine.

I get Cyril's reaction, all things considered.  I was also not aware that that meme was considered offensive to a specific segment of the population, so, hey, we are learn new stuff every day. 

There are no bad persons here.

Feels like one of those "time to move on" situations, if you ask me.

[ariich]

I feel like I've posted "I apologize for upsetting/causing offense" or some variation like six or seven times today alone.

EDIT: Also I would like to back Katt up on the fact that he isn't flippant about this stuff, but he and I have discussed the fact that some of his posts have given that impression.

All I can say is, it's tough to convey intent, emotion, and meaning through only text on the internet.

Oh I completely agree, and it's why these days I put quite a bit of effort and thinking into how I word things. And I still cock up sometimes.

[eric42434224]

Always make fun of what one does, never of what one is.

I can think of dozens of legendary, world famous, still touring comedians whose entire careers violate this mantra.

This is part of the problem.  Indiscipline writes a great post, with many take-away's that can improve your situation and knowledge.  And all you do is pick one sentence where you can disagree with him in a non productive manner.

I believe Indi knows that I pay full attention to his posts. I didn't comment on the rest because I didn't have a disagreement with them, because he covered those points well enough, and, importantly, the thing he said resonated deeply with me based on my views on humor, and the quoted part was the crux of much of his post. Don't assume I'm being flippant, please. You do that with me a lot, and I'm not here to argue with you. Please, I am desperately asking you not to do that.

But here is the point, and it plays in to a lot of what else is going on here.  Perception is reality.  The way one responds in the context of the thread can be interpreted by others in ways you may not mean.  No one assumed you were being anything.....but what we post is the only thing people here have to form their opinion.  You assumed Indi knows....but maybe everyone here doesn't.  Just an observation.

And I don't do anything with you a lot.  If you think I assumed you were being flippant, that was not my intention.  I apologize if that was the impression I gave with my post.  The message I intended was that you MIGHT have only commented on what you disagreed with, perhaps as a form of "right fighting".  As I said before, being right is great....but being right and without a friend sucks.  I learned that the hard way IRL.  I try not to do it, but I know I still do.

I am not trying to start an argument with ANYONE here, especially you.  No need for any desperation.  Honestly just trying to help.  Sometimes an outside perspective helps....lord knows I have had my share of issues.  I dont want to create more issues if my posts are irritating you, so I will gladly back out if it makes you feel better.  If you and Cyril are truly friends, I hope that you can both work it out.

[Indiscipline]

Always make fun of what one does, never of what one is.

I can think of dozens of legendary, world famous, still touring comedians whose entire careers violate this mantra.

Crap, maybe that's why I am not that successful 



Anyways, I know you know what I mean. We good.

[The Walrus]

Maybe it's finally time for that big long break from DTF after all, idk. I cause more problems than anything. Sorry

[Lethean]

Katt, I really don't think that's necessary at all. A couple people have even just apologized to you, and almost everyone is making it clear that they don't have issues with you as a person.  I don't think anyone wants you to leave.

Maybe just step back from this thread for a bit.

You definitely don't "cause problems."  This thread has had a lot of high emotion, but it's also allowed for some discussion and caused people to think about some things they might not otherwise would have.

[King Postwhore]

Mike my friend.   I understand why you are upset. You never meant that joke as an attack.  Without you knowing Cyril's background it upset him. 

Instead of Cyril privately telling you his issue so you could apologize you feel attacked out in the open.

Cyril is hurt though. You apologized.   Just leave it at that. We all know you didn't mean to hurt him.  You wanting to explaining is not helping you.

Cyril, instead of fighting back and then going silent,  talk it out. The world today needs more conversation and acceptance.  The other side can't understand without forgiveness.

It should have never escalated to where this is now.

[The Walrus]

I agree.

Thanks.

[Sacul]

The world today needs more conversation and acceptance.  The other side can't understand without forgiveness.

It should have never escalated to where this is now.

All of this. It saddens me to see my fellow DTFers caught into such distraught in the middle of a fun game of roulette - I've been here for many years now and some are dear friends to me.

The internet is a terrible place for communication, even the long form of this forum can't avoid the short bursts of anger that happens in most social media. I'm sure this could have been solved way faster and with more compassion from both sides had it happened in person.

[Northern Lion]

As an outside observer, Walrus/Kattlelox, I think your stance and the way you have handled this has mostly been fine.

I get Cyril's reaction, all things considered.  I was also not aware that that meme was considered offensive to a specific segment of the population, so, hey, we are learn new stuff every day. 

There are no bad persons here.

Feels like one of those "time to move on" situations, if you ask me.

I feel the same.

Mike my friend.   I understand why you are upset. You never meant that joke as an attack.  Without you knowing Cyril's background it upset him. 

Instead of Cyril privately telling you his issue so you could apologize you feel attacked out in the open.

Cyril is hurt though. You apologized.   Just leave it at that. We all know you didn't mean to hurt him.  You wanting to explaining is not helping you.

Cyril, instead of fighting back and then going silent,  talk it out. The world today needs more conversation and acceptance.  The other side can't understand without forgiveness.

It should have never escalated to where this is now.

I completely agree.

Maybe it's finally time for that big long break from DTF after all, idk. I cause more problems than anything. Sorry

No way man!  We all want you to stay Walrus  .  I feel like I'm just starting to get to know you, and it would be a shame if you left.

[TAC]

I'm sorry, but are we still rouletting here?

[King Postwhore]

Tim you git.  Wait until Cyril responses.

[Northern Lion]

I'm sorry, but are we still rouletting here?

No TAC, we are all feels right now .  You must be thinking of a different thread.

[Elite]

I’m not the best person to solve problems, even though I always try to strive for inclusivity. I’m only responding here now, because I have read every single word on the last few pages with interest, watching the discussion unfold and learning / gaining some valuable insights.

This post is not going to accomplish anything. It would be selfish of me to ask for ‘Results now!’ in this Roulette thread, but it would be good to leave this situation behind. Honestly, I don’t know how realistic it is that this roulette continues as normal. Cyril not responding AT ALL has me slightly worried though. I hope you’ll come back and take everything to heart in this thread.

I love you guys, please let’s go back to or continue getting along with each other.

[Nekov]

So, is this thing dead? Did we all get shot?

It is a shame that a joke that was supposed to be innocent and not ill intended ended up causing so much trouble. I don't mind that this game is no longer running, but I would really like for Cyril to keep participating in the forum as he has become a beloved member of our little community. This is a place where we mostly have fun and distract ourselves from the bad things that happen in our lives and we should try to keep it that way. Even if we have disagreements here and there, we can still enjoy each other's company.
That's my 2 cents on this.