Cyril's Lead-Filled Roulette! (Post-Roulette)

[Evermind]

Given how much has happened and how this discussion has heated up while I was typing my post, I expected two servings of "fuck off Evermind" right after I posted.

[Indiscipline]

As a professional comedian, I am offended by the elicopter joke.

[Crow]

I am not making an argument. I am stating an objective fact. The joke, by its very nature and intent, is transphobic.

This is a badly-written article but even it acknowledges that the root of the joke itself is transphobia. I'm not having a "debate" with you, I am just stating a fact and you are denying that fact. If you want to go live in your fantasy dragon world feel free to do so. Calling me a child because you don't like facts is pretty irrational of you. Facts don't care about your feelings. Insert other stupid right-wing joke often used to mock supposedly "childish" leftists etc.

[The Walrus]

I am not making an argument. I am stating an objective fact. The joke, by its very nature and intent, is transphobic.

This is a badly-written article but even it acknowledges that the root of the joke itself is transphobia. I'm not having a "debate" with you, I am just stating a fact and you are denying that fact. If you want to go live in your fantasy dragon world feel free to do so.

Like you and your fantasy world where civil debate isn't a thing, and you just lash out at people you disagree with, call them names (terminology like 'transphobic' can really fuck with someone's reputation, dude), and kick them out of trivial games because of the disagreement? Jesus Christ.

Transphobia is defined as: "Transphobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to social gender expectations. "

What I said was, "Are you assuming my gender?" after you called me "dudette." A harmless meme that everybody recognizes as a joke therefore I had hoped people would see the nature of my reply. YOU KNOW I wasn't trying to insult or harm anybody, but you told me "intent doesn't matter." And now you call ME irrational.

Now here we are.

[Crow]

"did you just assume my gender" is the go-to sentence to make fun of transgender people so using it reflects poorly on you even if you're not being serious.

I'm not going to choose sides and I agree that the intent was clearly innocuous, but the joke does come with trans-phobic connotations because of how it has been used. So assuming you didn't know that then I don't think you have anything to feel bad about, but it is genuinely worth being aware of those connotations and the fact that it could unintentionally cause offence.

I guess Buddy and ariich are childish too then. These are literally the same exact thing I've been posting. If you're attacking me you're also attacking them.

That you feel the need to defend yourself this badly instead of just apologizing and acknowledging that you didn't know the joke was inherently transphobic (which is fine! we grow from our experiences and I am not upset at you for not knowing to begin with!) is the problem here, by the way.

[The Walrus]

I am genuinely upset that years of fun conversation and exchanging music with you has resulted in nothing more than you thinking I'm a transphobic piece of shit because we have a mild disagreement on something controversial. Yeah we're just "people on the internet" but you're one of the people I really have enjoyed interacting with over these years and you've shown me loads of awesome music.

So, sorry, I guess, for being such a shitty person. Enjoy your roulette.

By the way, I did apologize for offending you already. But you probably couldn't see that past your emotions. I DISAGREE that the joke is "inherently transphobic" and THAT'S FINE. I have nothing against trans people. I'm not sure why you allow such a lukewarm meme to personally offend you so deeply that we're at this point. Again, enjoy your roulette, but it genuinely bothers me - quite deeply - that you think I am transphobic. I literally go out of my way to defend my trans friends, but you wouldn't know that because you have firmly decided I am a garbage person.

And you know what? If defending oneself instead of kowtowing to the specific ideological line YOU have deemed acceptable and worthy of respect makes me bad, then I must be pretty evil. My intent and my feelings and my rationale don't matter, but yours do? GTFO.

[Crow]

By the way, I did apologize for offending you already.

Not what I'm asking you to apologize for!

[ariich]

Cyril, Katt, you're both doing a pretty bad job of paying attention to what the other is saying, and it's causing both of you to become increasing entrenched in your argument, when the root of the argument is one very specific point.

Katt, the fact that the disagreement is on one specific point does not mean it's not an important point. If you jokingly referred to a black person using the N word on a public forum, regardless of the intent it would be offensive. It's the same with this, because of the history of how the meme has been used and the connotations it comes with. You seemingly not accepting this premise gives the impression that you don't much care whether you cause offence. I don't believe that's the case at all, but it's how it comes across.

Cyril, you're right that the meme is offensive regardless of the intent due its previous use, but someone not realising or appreciating that doesn't make them a bigot, which you implied even if that's not what you meant. Most people are on a journey with stuff like this, and maybe 5 years ago my attitude was very similar to Katt's. Taking a completely purist argument right from the off is rarely conducive to discussion and doesn't help people understand your point.

Seriously guys, you need to chill and cool off.

[Crow]

That you feel the need to defend yourself this badly instead of just apologizing and acknowledging that you didn't know the joke was inherently transphobic (which is fine! we grow from our experiences and I am not upset at you for not knowing to begin with!) is the problem here, by the way.

Cyril, you're right that the meme is offensive regardless of the intent due its previous use, but someone not realising or appreciating that doesn't make them a bigot. Most people are on a journey with stuff like this, and maybe 5 years ago my attitude was very similar to Katt's. Taking a completely purist argument right from the off is rarely conducive to discussion and doesn't help people understand your point.

Hey, I agreed with you on this

To clarify, since there seems to be some misunderstanding; I have not at any point called Katt transphobic. I am only calling that joke itself transphobic. That is the only point I'm trying to make here. Continuing to argue against the fact that joke is transphobic (which is a very well-documented fact!) is what I'm upset about.

[ariich]

Yeah sorry I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't recognised that point in general. But more specifically I mean the recognition that a phrase or joke or meme can he inherently offensive because of the connotations associated with it, regardless of intent. If Katt doesn't agree with that point then he's hradly going to acknowledge and apologise for it immediately.

EDIT and re your last paragraph, yes I realised that and had edited my previous post to recognise that you weren't meaning that Katt was a bigot, but that was an implication that came across from the way you were arguing the point.

[The Walrus]

Katt, the fact that the disagreement is on one specific point does not mean it's not an important point. If you joking referred to a black person using the N word on a public forum, regardless of the intent it would be offensive. It's the same with this, because of the history of how the meme has been used and the connotations it comes with. You seemingly not accepting this premise gives the impression that you don't much care whether you cause offence. I don't believe that's the case at all, but it's how it comes across.

Comparing what I wrote to casually dropping the n-bomb is such a bad comparison that I am honestly having a hard time reading beyond that sentence. No disrespect intended, of course... like, there are numerous reasons why this is a terrible analogy

Cyril kicked me out of his roulette because he "does not tolerate transphobia" so apparently I am irredeemable and unworthy of playing in his game over one comment. If he doesn't think I'm transphobic, these optics sure don't help.

It's also bullshit that MY intent doesn't matter, the context of the meme doesn't matter, my rationale for saying what I said doesn't matter, but Cyril gets to make the rules and tell me that HIS feelings matter? Why doesn't this matter to anyone else? Why am I being punished, when he is showing the exact same disregard for my feelings that I (apparently) am to him?

[Crow]

Katt, the fact that the disagreement is on one specific point does not mean it's not an important point. If you joking referred to a black person using the N word on a public forum, regardless of the intent it would be offensive. It's the same with this, because of the history of how the meme has been used and the connotations it comes with. You seemingly not accepting this premise gives the impression that you don't much care whether you cause offence. I don't believe that's the case at all, but it's how it comes across.

Comparing what I wrote to casually dropping the n-bomb is such a bad comparison that I am honestly having a hard time reading beyond that sentence. No disrespect intended, of course...

I'm actually going to agree with this point, fwiw. It's more akin to like, casually racist jokes rather than outright slurs lol

Cyril kicked me out of his roulette because he "does not tolerate transphobia" so apparently I am irredeemable and unworthy of playing in his game over one comment. If he doesn't think I'm transphobic, these optics sure don't help.

this was maybe a heated comment from me but i still stand firm in that the joke is inherently transphobic and all i really am asking is for you to acknowledge that. i don't really know about your personal life but if the hill you want to die on is a transphobic joke it's hard to not assume things!

this is also not about my feelings. it is about literally a fact. i am just the messenger. but if it *is* about my feelings then it's also about the feelings of the millions of trans people in the world so

[ariich]

Katt, the fact that the disagreement is on one specific point does not mean it's not an important point. If you joking referred to a black person using the N word on a public forum, regardless of the intent it would be offensive. It's the same with this, because of the history of how the meme has been used and the connotations it comes with. You seemingly not accepting this premise gives the impression that you don't much care whether you cause offence. I don't believe that's the case at all, but it's how it comes across.

Comparing what I wrote to casually dropping the n-bomb is such a bad comparison that I am honestly having a hard time reading beyond that sentence. No disrespect intended, of course...

None taken, this is an important point and I understand it's an emotive topic. But fundamentally the two situations are comparable. A word/meme that can be used without ill intent but which is offensive regardless of that due to its history.

Cyril kicked me out of his roulette because he "does not tolerate transphobia" so apparently I am irredeemable and unworthy of playing in his game over one comment. If he doesn't think I'm transphobic, these optics sure don't help.

I agree and made a similar point.

It's also bullshit that MY intent doesn't matter, the context of the meme doesn't matter, my rationale for saying what I said doesn't matter, but Cyril gets to make the rules and tell me that HIS feelings matter? Why doesn't this matter to anyone else? Why am I being punished, when he is showing the exact same disregard for my feelings that I (apparently) am to him?

This is untrue, I have also been critical of the impression that Cyril has given regardless of his intent. Both your feelings matter and to be honest neither of you is doing a great job of communicating. But that's what happens in heated, emotive discussions. As I said, best you both cool off.

[The Walrus]

But I don't think that's fair, respectfully. I apologized, I said I wouldn't make those jokes again, and Cyril still booted me out and told me my intentions don't matter while demanding I respect his beliefs, which I had already said I would by not cracking those kinds of jokes in this thread. Earlier he said he wouldn't drop it, I assume until I agree with his ideology, AND I DON'T! And I respectfully articulated that earlier, and I said it was okay that we disagree. So one of us *is* trying to be respectful, but still ended up being punished. Which is fine, whatever, it's a roulette, it's just a game, but that matters if we're talking about fair behavior.

I would love to drop this entirely as long as we can agree that I'm not a fucking transphobe. Okay? I get that Cyril apparently doesn't think I actually am one, which is great. But can we clear the air? This is ridiculous.

[Indiscipline]

Guys, make a fool happy and try this:


"charged meme"

"That is transphobic, not cool"

"Oh, I didn't know, how is it?"

"It's been repeatedly used to put down trans people. It's like the white hood, inherently innocent, but it's been poisoned forever by KKK usage"

"Didn't know that, sorry. I hope you appreciate both the context and my intent were miles away from derogatory"

"Sure, you didn't know. Now you do"

"No prob. I am a funny guy, I can find non-charged material to bust your balls in no time."

"Cool. Comparisons tomorrow"

[Stadler]

It's not my argument, but I think the assumption that this is "inherently" transphobic is a little bit of a stretch.  Personally, I've never heard the phrase before (nor "attack helicopter"; WTF, my stepson's career is SERVICING real life attack helicopters, and I've never heard that), but I'm not a staunch on-line presence, so there's that.  I think to compare a four-year-old (at best) online expression to a 325-year-old word about which actual wars have been fought (figuratively) over it's meaning and intent is a little much.

And even if it is "inherently transphobic", intent and context cannot be ignored.   Even the N-word isn't "inherent"; see every Tarantino movie.   Granted the contexts are VERY limited, but there IS context for those that care about such things.   

And even if it's "inherently transphobic", AND we're going to completely ignore "intent" and "context", bullying and excluding isn't the answer.   Teach, and include.   I love this quote, from a trans man on Quora: "We've got to do better at building alliances across differences and not making assumptions. Sometimes we have to go first.". I know I learned something here, and we have to allow for that.

I don't know what the status of Walrus is or not - in or out - but on principle, if he's out, I'm out, because this to me seems like a lot of overkill and judgement at worst, and an unmeetable standard at best.  Teach him what you want to teach him (he can take or leave the message) but in all fairness to him, don't say "intent doesn't matter" then assume his intent nonetheless. 

EDIT: Ninja'd (sort of) by Indi. 

[The Walrus]

Thank you, Stadler.

For the record I've been aware of the phrase for years. I've been aware some people don't like it. I was NOT aware that suddenly any usage of it can now be labeled as transphobic, and it greatly disturbs me that my intent is of no importance to the matter. The context in which I used it had absolutely nothing to do with trans people and doesn't even contain any negative nomenclature.

[The Walrus]

Anyway here's Wonderwall

[ariich]

I would love to drop this entirely as long as we can agree that I'm not a fucking transphobe. Okay? I get that Cyril apparently doesn't think I actually am one, which is great. But can we clear the air? This is ridiculous.

Absolutely. As a moderator, a neutral in this argument, and someone who very much likes and gets on with both of you, I would very much like that.

I would like to make a few (hopefully final) points from my perspective, if I may. I do this partly as a moderator in terms of explaining how I see it, and partly as an internet friend wanting to offer my own perspectives and experiences.

I 100% accept that you intended to apologise and "agree to disagree" in a respectful way, but because of the heated discussion and some of the wording used, it didn't come across that way. Similarly, I 100% accept that Cyril wasn't meaning to call you a transphobe, but that's what came across from the harshness of some of his reactions.

I'm a firm advocate for agreeing to disagree, but I also think it's important to fully engage in a discussion first, to listen respectfully to the other side of an argument and really take it in and be willing to have your mind changed. Often you won't significantly, or even at all to be honest, but just having the will helps reach that point of respectful disagreement. In this case, that didn't happen - both of you jumped very quickly to entrenched positions and dug in. Maybe you've had too many discussions like this or just wanted to move on, but again it's about how it comes across, which seemed dismissive (again I'm not suggesting this is what you intended or felt).

Also I was going to say this anyway, but it's particularly relevant to what you said here:

For the record I've been aware of the phrase for years. I've been aware some people don't like it. I was NOT aware that suddenly any usage of it can now be labeled as transphobic, and it greatly disturbs me that my intent is of no importance to the matter. The context in which I used it had absolutely nothing to do with trans people and doesn't even contain any negative nomenclature.

I agree that intent is extremely important, I'd even argue it's the most important thing, but it's not the only important thing - which I think is the point here. I also know from experience the frustration at being interpreted completely the wrong way. That's why I think it's so important to really engage in a proper discussion - it's helped me so much to avoid those sorts of misunderstandings (although not entirely, I should add). It's also why I believe it's so important to really truly accept that intent isn't enough on its own, and that regardless of intent or context, all of us can accidentally cause offence with what we say.

And in terms of a word/phrase/meme not originally being offensive but becoming so, this is the case for basically all offensive terms. Again with the N word (which I accept is on a completely different scale and history, I'm just using it as an extreme example of the same general principle), it was simply a descriptive term for 200 years before it became derogatory. But once something has that status, I think it's important to recognise and try to reflect that, again because to refuse to do can give the impression of being dismissive or not caring whether you cause offence.

[Adami]

Well that was a fun read!


So at first I actually agreed with both Tusky and Cyril. But then Studly agreed with Walrus and I have to disagree with him, so by the transitive property, I also have to disagree with KittyLox.

Sorry bud, didn't want it to go down this way.

[TAC]

"did you just assume my gender" is the go-to sentence to make fun of transgender people so using it reflects poorly on you even if you're not being serious.

I've frankly never even heard that phrase before.

[Elite]

"did you just assume my gender" is the go-to sentence to make fun of transgender people so using it reflects poorly on you even if you're not being serious.

I've frankly never even heard that phrase before.

This is completely unsurprising though

[The Walrus]

So like am I for real out of this roulette still?

[ariich]

So like am I for real out of this roulette still?

I hope not. Admittedly I've lost track a little, but if you have genuinely accepted that the meme in question can cause offence because of its usage/history, then I would definitely urge Cyril not to kick you out. And if you haven't done so in clear terms yet, then I would definitely urge you to do so.

[Crow]

So like am I for real out of this roulette still?

I hope not. Admittedly I've lost track a little, but if you have genuinely accepted that the meme in question can cause offence because of its usage/history, then I would definitely urge Cyril not to kick you out. And if you haven't done so in clear terms yet, then I would definitely urge you to do so.

to be clear; this has been the entire point from the start, but given your comments in other threads i'm not inclined to accept you back in regardless now, so

[The Walrus]

Guess that settles it.

Even though i literally already did what ariich said. But okay. Honestly, I'd rather not even play in the roulette of someone acting so childish, so at least that is clear.  Peace...

[Crow]

second verse, same as the first

[ariich]

Even though i literally already did what ariich said.

I can't see that you did, not clearly. You apologised, but you did so while arguing that there was nothing at all wrong with using the meme, which I'm not sure entirely constitutes an apology. And I can't see where you've fully accepted that the phrase can inadvertently cause offence.

[Sacul]

While I'd agree that our host's initial response was a bit twitter-esque, nobody's calling you transphobic, Mr Walrus. I get why you're pissed at his attitude that such things aren't debatable - these topics have already been discussed and marked as offensive by the trans community long ago and many people already take that for granted whey they say it's a fact. Of course that makes you feel puzzled having no context or a deeper understanding of these issues so yeah it's kinda weird to be told something it's factually offensive without knowing exactly why. For some people it's not obvious at first glance, and doesn't help when the other parts get a little too intense and make it seem like they're judging you but Cyril's already cleared that up so let's all forgive each other and move on.

[The Walrus]

I sent Ron Burgundy for round 3

[ariich]

While I'd agree that our host's initial response was a bit twitter-esque, nobody's calling you transphobic, Mr Walrus. I get why you're pissed at his attitude that such things aren't debatable - these topics have already been discussed and marked as offensive by the trans community long ago and many people already take that for granted whey they say it's a fact. Of course that makes you feel puzzled having no context or a deeper understanding of these issues so yeah it's kinda weird to be told something it's factually offensive without knowing exactly why. For some people it's not obvious at first glance, and doesn't help when the other parts get a little too intense and make it seem like they're judging you but Cyril's already cleared that up so let's all forgive each other and move on.

This is a great post, thanks Lucas. I very much hope that Cyril and Katt can talk it through properly (which never actually happened because it all escalated so quickly, which I assume is what Katt's Ron Burgundy reference is about ) and at least understand and forgive each other, even if they don't agree on everything.

[The Walrus]

While I'd agree that our host's initial response was a bit twitter-esque, nobody's calling you transphobic, Mr Walrus. I get why you're pissed at his attitude that such things aren't debatable - these topics have already been discussed and marked as offensive by the trans community long ago and many people already take that for granted whey they say it's a fact. Of course that makes you feel puzzled having no context or a deeper understanding of these issues so yeah it's kinda weird to be told something it's factually offensive without knowing exactly why. For some people it's not obvious at first glance, and doesn't help when the other parts get a little too intense and make it seem like they're judging you but Cyril's already cleared that up so let's all forgive each other and move on.

This is a great post, thanks Lucas. I very much hope that Cyril and Katt can talk it through properly (which never actually happened because it all escalated so quickly, which I assume is what Katt's Ron Burgundy reference is about ) and at least understand and forgive each other, even if they don't agree on everything.

I did already say it's okay if we don't agree on everything. I also sent him an olive branch last night hoping to hash this out like adults.

One last thing that really does bother me is that apparently I should've known better and not posted that joke/meme, but Cyril, for all his knowledge of trans culture and issues surrounding it, purposely chose to refer to me by the wrong gender pronoun, which is the entire reason I said what I said, which should be apparent to everyone that I intended nothing malicious at all. So I am very confused as to why Cyril calling me a girl is acceptable behavior, but me referencing that meme is not when it was a perfectly suitable facetious response. And let me be clear it doesn't bother me that he called me a girl, I think it's funny. What I take issue with is him playing a double standard, where he can make the rules of what's acceptable for him to do, but then disregard my intent and rationale because something *I* said bothered him.

I have nothing against Cyril. I have nothing against trans folks. I'm here to have fun, bust balls, and share music like I have successfully done for 3-4 years. I thought Cyril and I were friends - apparently we're not. Okay. But I don't like how this makes me look to some people, hence why I'm still talking the next morning. Because it actually bothers me.

EDIT: Finally, to address an earlier concern about appearing 'dismissive' early on - I was not. As I said above I thought Cyril and I were friends, so I was talking to him like a friend. I didn't think it would turn into this.

[TAC]

Let’s load the chamber.

[Lethean]

I'm not in this roulette but found out about this from another thread.

I think ariich and Sacul have mostly said what I would have said.  I don't believe I know anyone who is trans, but I have some gay relatives and we've talked about this sort of thing and I've learned from them.  I talked this thread over with them.  Obviously, they don't speak for the entire LGBTQ community, but feel like what they have to say would be agreed on by most.  Their position is essentially:

Don't use that meme, regardless of intent.  The person who sent it clearly (to them) didn't have ill intent, and that does matter, especially in how you should approach that person.  But they should still be made aware that it's harmful to trans people whether they meant it like that or not, and they should please refrain from using it.  Similarly, don't jokingly misgender someone (what Cyril did with again, what they believe no ill intent).  Men calling each other women, even or especially in a joking way among friends, reinforces both transphobia but also homophobia as well.  Reinforces stereotypes.  Some who were asking Katt not to use the meme might react to this last bit by saying "that's ridiculous."  They might balk at the idea because they've done it all their lives.  That doesn't mean someone else (not just Katt) should seize on that with "if they're not going to change, neither am I" and justify using the meme or saying similar things.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  Instead, recognize that as ariich said, this is a process for everyone.  It's engrained and takes time to change.  Sometimes people will screw up.  Some people will take time to come around, but hopefully they will.  Hold each other accountable but treat each other kindly.


Me: in general, I try and will try harder to take that above advice.  Maybe we all can.  Ariich has done the moderating and I don't think I could say anything that he's said better.  Kattelox is a friend and I think he's a good person.  It would be nice if both could move on but I get that a lot has been said and maybe it's not so bad to take a break from each other (in your roulettes) and let some time pass.

[The Walrus]

I do not like the policing of comedy nor agree with it at all. But I apologized for causing offense and said I wouldn't make those jokes again in this thread. That should be plenty acceptable, and I feel that's a valid expression of remorse. Cyril does not have to accept it but it sure would be nice if he did so it would put my mind to rest on the issue.