Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go

[npiazza91]

Been listening to their middle albums a lot and I realized something. After Scenes From a Memory, the band went in a much more “metal” direction. Every album from 6-10 is a heavy metal album with the exception of maybe Octavarium. On albums 1-5 the band had a much more...prog sound. The prog took precedence over the metal aspect. Don’t get me wrong, albums 6-10 are still very proggy, but they never QUITE went into full on heavy metal mode until Six Degrees. Especially on TOT, SC and BCASL you can see the metal overtaking the prog sound, a lot of the “magic” that is heard on albums like Awake and SFAM...is kinda lost. They lost a lot of that atmosphere. It makes even more sense when you listen to ADTOE and you’re like “damn...that’s the sound that’s been missing”. Even DT12 was a very atmospheric album, even if the quality of some the songs weren’t really up to par.

You can just tell that Portnoy was kinda taking over the band’s sound in a lot of ways. Songs like ANTR, HTF, CM, TDEN, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, I love the 12 Step Suite, and I love a lot of the songs on albums 6-10, but by the time SC and BCASL came out, you can really hear a band struggling to find its identity. Then when you listen to ADTOE the band sounds right at home, more focused, they’re able to breathe a lot more, etc. It’s like when a 16 year old kid’s parents go away and he immediately invites all his friends over to drink and stuff...the band just feels like a weight has been lifted off them. I feel like Portnoy was holding them back tbh. You might disagree and that’s fine. But while I do think Portnoy was the better drummer, I’m happy Mangini is in the band now. DOT is slowly creeping up to becoming one of my favorite DT albums, and ADTOE is my #2 album by them. If they had kept going in the BCASL direction, we wouldn’t have gotten these great albums. It’s really hard to explain fully, but there was not a certain...magic in the first five albums that kinda dropped at some point after that, and only resurfaced with ADTOE. It was like this epic, emotional, almost symphonic feel to their music that got drowned out.

Btw, I still think Six Degrees and TOT are fantastic albums, but it doesn’t change my point that the band kinda started losing their magic after SFAM. They had a certain sound that was lost in albums 6-10. Maybe you know what I mean.

[Cool Chris]

They didn't "choose to let him go." He chose to leave. It might be more accurate to present it as why they "chose to not cave to his request for a break."

[KevShmev]

He was not let go; he chose to leave.

And I think the split has been good for both parties.  DT received a much-needed jolt, and Portnoy, while having some misfires, has made some of the best music of his career since leaving DT (with Flying Colors and Neal Morse/Neal Morse Band).  Everyone has won, especially the fans.

[ChuckSteak]

This is all in the realm of speculation, we don't know any of that for sure. Of course they won't, but the band could easily come out and deny all of that. It really sounds as if Portnoy assumed total control over DT and the other guys had almost no say, which I think it is not true.

[MirrorMask]

Well, wasn't Mike the first to admit and actually write that he had the most perseverance and that, while he was not a dictator in the sense of "This is how to be done because I say so, end of the story", he would actually wore the other guys down with his arguments until he would have his way?

Well, the break from their activities was the one situation in which he didn't manage to have the other guys finally agreeing and going along with him.

[New World Rushman]

Watch MP's latest YouTube video going through his vinyl collection, he is on the 'Ds' and talks about this while going through the DT albums;
During the 6DoIT tour,  they had covered Number of the Beast and Master of Puppets, which very much influenced the heaviness of Tot, then they toured with Yes, which influenced the proginess of 8V.
It's a good watch.

[DTA]

I think the desire to emulate other bands reached a peak during this run of albums and it made everything sound a little inauthentic. I'm guessing most of that was from MP's insistence. With him gone, I think the band just went back to writing instinctually and ultimately started sounding like Dream Theater again.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Guys MP and JP were the main producers and the leaders of the band ..it's not like everything wrong up until then was MP doing without getting any approval from anyone..For better or worse it is what it is..But the band has changed, they've clearly stated that many times, the main product of what DT is today is their latest album.

[RoeDent]

This is all in the realm of speculation, we don't know any of that for sure.

Sorry, but MP choosing to leave DT is not in the realm of speculation at all. It's right there in the first line of his announcement.

After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.

So he did choose to leave.

[ChuckSteak]

This is all in the realm of speculation, we don't know any of that for sure.

Sorry, but MP choosing to leave DT is not in the realm of speculation at all. It's right there in the first line of his announcement.

I think that is a fact and obviously I was not refering to that. 

[bosk1]

I disagree about MP taking the band in a "metal" direction and downplaying the prog.  That just doesn't fit.  Petrucci and Myung are and have always been HUGE metal guys.  Are you forgetting stories like the two of them breaking open MOP as soon as it hit the shelves, and being blown away by it?  Or Myung using a sped-up NOTB as a regular practice routine?  Or the fact that JP writes the majority of the riffs?  MP was never the only metal guy in the band.  Even leaving aside the fact that there has been PLENTY of metal on the albums since MP left, there's also the fact that JP has pushed to have songs like TDEN in several of their sets because he loves playing those songs. 

I don't disagree that there was a change in the band's sound, and that they have indeed sounded "fresher" (for lack of a better term).  But "they had gotten too metal and are now returning to form" isn't really an accurate description.

[Orbert]

I have nothing constructive to add except to say that I've always found the phrase "let someone go" interesting.  Today, it's a euphemism for firing someone.  "Bob, I'm afraid I'm going to have to let you go."

But consider:

Mike chose to leave.
They let him (as opposed to begging him to stay).
Therefore, they let him go.

[pg1067]

Thank goodness we're still getting threads like this nearly 10 years after the fact!

Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go

First of all, you should get your facts straight:  "They" didn't "chose [sic] to let Portnoy go."  Mike Portnoy quit Dream Theater of his own free will.  It wasn't even a situation where he quit in order to avoid being fired.

Been listening to their middle albums a lot and I realized something. After Scenes From a Memory, the band went in a much more “metal” direction. Every album from 6-10 is a heavy metal album with the exception of maybe Octavarium.

Maybe I'm being too nit picky, but Dream Theater is a progressive metal band.  EVERY album the band has been released has been a "metal album."  Sure...some have been heavier than others, but they've all been metal albums.

they never QUITE went into full on heavy metal mode until Six Degrees.

You might want to check out Awake.  It's a pretty good album.

You can just tell that Portnoy was kinda taking over the band’s sound in a lot of ways. Songs like ANTR, HTF, CM, TDEN, etc.

At least two of those songs are primarily attributable to Petrucci.


I'm not going to go over all of the other things you wrote point by point, but I'll close with two things:  First, while MP might have been the most "metal" guy in DT, he was arguably also the most "prog" guy.  Second, it should be obvious that nothing that happened from ADTOE to the present influenced either MP's decision to leave DT or DT's decision not to let him back in the band when he asked.  You can make all the points you want about Mangini era DT versus late Portnoy era DT, but please at least get your facts right.

Well, wasn't Mike the first to admit and actually write that he had the most perseverance and that, while he was not a dictator in the sense of "This is how to be done because I say so, end of the story", he would actually wore the other guys down with his arguments until he would have his way?

That's a VERY old comment that goes back to the Kevin Moore era.

[hunnus2000]

MP left the band, they had drummer auditions and he then tried to get back in the band but was rebuffed. Is that correct?

The way I see it (pure speculation) once the original shock wore off, the rest of the band looked at this as an opportunity to have a more stable bandmate. We know they had clashed for years with MP and his abrasive personality.

And while I don't agree with the original poster's premise, I really do enjoy the MM era as it is definitely progressive metal with the main difference being that the songs are far more melodic. MP used to say that the music has to have "balls" so I felt in some songs he kind of forced heavier parts into the song which didn't necessarily make the song better. Please don't take this as a dis on MP. I love his work with DT and other projects.

[Dream Team]

I 100% agree with your assessment of the band's sound, they are much more balanced since MP left. No more stuff like ANTR or TDEN which are not DT's strength. Incorporating heavy riffs into a proggy, melodic framework like Beneath the Veil suits them much better. As for your other statement regarding the particulars of MP's departure, others have already corrected you.

[pg1067]

MP left the band, they had drummer auditions and he then tried to get back in the band but was rebuffed. Is that correct?

I don't recall the exact timing of things (and don't feel like looking it up), but this is basically correct.  MP left.  By the time he asked to come back, the band had already committed to MM.

The way I see it (pure speculation) once the original shock wore off, the rest of the band looked at this as an opportunity to have a more stable bandmate. We know they had clashed for years with MP and his abrasive personality.

I'm not sure I agree with all that (and especially not the second sentence), but I would agree that the remaining members of DT embraced the opportunity to work in a different way and are not unhappy with how things turned out.

[gzarruk]

Not to add more fire to this, but... this is Jordan speaking about the writing process of ADTOE back in 2011:

With Mike Portnoy leaving, John became, like, free. The fact that Mike Portnoy left did not make us suffer. John Petrucci and I, we are the core composers of DREAM THEATER, and it has been that way since I joined the group. So, even though Mike was extremely talented, there were certain limitations of what he could do in terms of the production. So when we moved on, we looked at each other and said, "We can produce this album. We do not need somebody else telling us what is good or not," and we enjoyed that challenge. The biggest difference in writing music to this album was that we decided to write this music choosing what is best for us without Mike Portnoy being the DREAM THEATER police telling us "yes" or "no." I think that it took us a little more time to craft our music before putting our stamp of approval on it.

Source: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/rudess-new-cd-was-written-without-portnoy-being-dream-theater-police-telling-us-yes-or-no/

[hunnus2000]

Not to add more fire to this, but... this is Jordan speaking about the writing process of ADTOE back in 2011:

With Mike Portnoy leaving, John became, like, free. The fact that Mike Portnoy left did not make us suffer. John Petrucci and I, we are the core composers of DREAM THEATER, and it has been that way since I joined the group. So, even though Mike was extremely talented, there were certain limitations of what he could do in terms of the production. So when we moved on, we looked at each other and said, "We can produce this album. We do not need somebody else telling us what is good or not," and we enjoyed that challenge. The biggest difference in writing music to this album was that we decided to write this music choosing what is best for us without Mike Portnoy being the DREAM THEATER police telling us "yes" or "no." I think that it took us a little more time to craft our music before putting our stamp of approval on it.

Source: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/rudess-new-cd-was-written-without-portnoy-being-dream-theater-police-telling-us-yes-or-no/

See - this is exactly what I was talking about. This reminds me of the ToT video where MP is going around videoing JR practicing the end of ITNOG and JR was extending the scale out when MP said too much and JR immediately shortened the ending. Now post MP and on certain songs, I can hear JR extending the end of songs to his liking almost as if saying, 'this is my move' without someone in his ear saying 'too much'.

I could give other examples of why I think they took this opportunity to move forward but I beg the question, if MM left DT, would DT welcome back MP? 

[pg1067]

I could give other examples of why I think they took this opportunity to move forward but I beg the question, if MM left DT, would DT welcome back MP?

Which was recently discussed over several pages in another thread.

[TAC]

I disagree about MP taking the band in a "metal" direction and downplaying the prog.  That just doesn't fit.  Petrucci and Myung are and have always been HUGE metal guys.  Are you forgetting stories like the two of them breaking open MOP as soon as it hit the shelves, and being blown away by it?  Or Myung using a sped-up NOTB as a regular practice routine?  Or the fact that JP writes the majority of the riffs?  MP was never the only metal guy in the band.  Even leaving aside the fact that there has been PLENTY of metal on the albums since MP left, there's also the fact that JP has pushed to have songs like TDEN in several of their sets because he loves playing those songs. 

I don't disagree that there was a change in the band's sound, and that they have indeed sounded "fresher" (for lack of a better term).  But "they had gotten too metal and are now returning to form" isn't really an accurate description.

Exactly.

After Scenes, we still had 6D's and 8V, about as non metal as you can get in their discog.

I found SC fairly varied, and BC&SL was heavy, but the only purposely heavy album was Train Of Thought.


Not for nothing but I consider The Enemy Inside one of their all time heaviest songs. Bridges In The Sky as well.

[lovethedrake]

I agree with the premise of the original post.  I don’t know if it’s all Portnoy’s fault though.

Everything after SDOIT was indeed “too metal” imo and that includes ADTOE.   The self titled finally sounded like the DT I love with the exception of “the enemy inside” which was basically “here you go metal fans, we will throw you this one bone”.

The Astonishing and D/T have been true returns to form.

One of the huge differences has been the vocal production and delivery of JL.

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t MP have some choice words about Labrie’s over the top vocal style and wanted him to sound more modern and metal?   It’s extremely noticeable from TOT through ADTOE.   

Self titled you can notice a stark contrast in Labrie’s delivery and production.  Also listen to Labrie on The Glass Prison vs ITNOG and As I Am.  TGP is insanely heavy but Labrie sounds like Labrie.  On ITNOG Labrie sounds like Dickinson and on As I Am he sounds like Hetfield.

IMO the magical era was Wdadu through SDOIT.  The band definitely went too modern and metal sounding through ADTOE.

Self titled through D/T sound like an aging band returning to form.  They won’t recapture SFAM magic but they are making similar sounding music again.

Why do people call Octavarium a proggy album?   Awake is certainty heavy but it’s moodiness and atmospheric quality and production is what makes it proggy sounding.  I don’t see that in octavarium at all.  There are metal songs that are epic but Metallica did that also and didn’t get labeled prog.

Root of all evil - this is metal, not prog

Answer lies within- nothing proggy about this

These walls- nothing proggy about this

I walk beside you - u2 not prog

Panic attack- this is metal, not prog

Never enough - sort of proggy I guess but mostly just  muse influence

Sacrificed sons- proggy

Octavarium - proggy

I think people tend to lump “heavy” with “metal” and “light” with “prog” which I think is very misleading. 

I’m a prog guy and LOVE heavy stuff.  AT Wits End is a perfect example of this.  The enemy inside is heavy but I really don’t like it.

[RoeDent]

I could give other examples of why I think they took this opportunity to move forward but I beg the question, if MM left DT, would DT welcome back MP?

Please no! For all the reasons mentioned in many many posts above.

And for those saying they've always had the metal elements in there...that's absolutely true, but you have to admit that there is a lot of darkness in SC and BC&SL, an element that was toned down considerably in ADTOE, and in every album since. Heck, they've even started using C major, a tonal centre (arguably the brightest of such) that, among their pre-MM work, I could only find in a section of Only A Matter of Time.

[Kotowboy]

 


Portnoy was actually my fave member of the band until he left and turned into Mr. Passive Aggressive.

His antics on Social Media didn't help either.

Each time I thought about giving him another chance - he'd go and say something anti - DT again.

I would have been into Sons Of Apollo if he and Derek weren't a couple of complete childish idiots about it.

[Elite]

I agree with the premise of the original post.  I don’t know if it’s all Portnoy’s fault though.

Everything after SDOIT was indeed “too metal” imo and that includes ADTOE.   The self titled finally sounded like the DT I love with the exception of “the enemy inside” which was basically “here you go metal fans, we will throw you this one bone”.

I personally feel that DT's song-writing has been way less interesting on the albums after ADTOE. It's become way more of 'heavy riff' followed by 'chorus containing a vocal melody that has been added later' song after song. Funny that you mention The Enemy Inside, because that's my favourite DT song they've done since Octavarium, precisely because it doesn't really sound too much like the other tracks. As far as I'm concerned, despite TEI, their self-titled is their weakest studio output, because it's so bland and meaningless.

The Astonishing and D/T have been true returns to form.

Completely disagree with this. While I enjoy TA for what it is, you can hardly call this a 'return to form', because it's so different from their other stuff. Distance over Time was a step in the right direction, but it feels too much like the band is just churning out some songs that are ultimately rehashed things they have already before. They explore no new territory at all (and this has been a tendency within the band over the course of multiple albums). Not saying it's bad, but for me 'return to form' would mean exciting, forward-thinking music that's not trying to be something it's not - see the run from I&W-TOT. I feel like ADTOE / s/t / D/T are absolutely not trying to be 'progressive' at all, but rather restating the same thing the band has done in the past.

I think people tend to lump “heavy” with “metal” and “light” with “prog” which I think is very misleading. 

Definitely. 'Progressive' music can definitely be 'heavy'.

[lovethedrake]

The Astonishing was definitely going for something new, exciting, and fresh.....

I’m listening to Octavarium right now and one thing I noticed is that outside of the title track they never bring in a new vocal melody after the first verse and chorus.  Sure they take you on wild instrumental rides but always come back to the same established vocal melody.  That’s why I never understood why people consider it proggy.   Not every classic era 90’s DT song did this but so many of them did.  It’s why I consider songs like S2N and AWE a return to form.


I agree that the period of innovation and magic was I&W through TOT but I feel like D/T is the closest to sounding like those albums since That era imo and they have gotten closer and closer to that since portnoys influence was totally gone....  I love portnoy and he’s a huge reason I fell in love with the band but it was definitely a good move for both parties it would seem.  Perhaps it’s just coincidence but for me I couldn’t really identify with any of the albums from octavarium through ADTOE.   I still listen to them and enjoy them, there is great stuff but they just don’t quit fit my musical taste.  The constant need for “metal” seemed to end with “the enemy inside”.  I don’t think they’ve made a song like that since.   Labrie is singing like a prog rock singer again and not Hetfield.  I’m very happy with where the band is at.

To me the most glaring distinction of their music comes in the form of two songs:

Nightmare to remember:  the song in general is modern sounding DT, the beautiful agony part is classic sounding DT.

Lost not forgotten: the song in general sounds like modern DT, the “greatest story every told” part sounds like classic DT.

Just my opinion but I always felt those parts represented the magic they left behind after SDOIT.

[KevShmev]

Why do people call Octavarium a proggy album?   

For one, the title track helps, as it is their one true long epic that is proggy and not metal at all, and then the album is very thematic in nature with the octave thing, and thematic and/or concept albums usually get thrown into the prog pile, fair or not. 

But it's funny because Train of Thought was just as proggy overall as Octavarium, if not more, but ToT was so chaotic and heavy that it was easy to label it "more metal," while calling its successor "more proggy."

[PetFish]

Portnoy was actually my fave member of the band until he left and turned into Mr. Passive Aggressive.

His antics on Social Media didn't help either.

Each time I thought about giving him another chance - he'd go and say something anti - DT again.

I would have been into Sons Of Apollo if he and Derek weren't a couple of complete childish idiots about it.

That's just, like, my opinion also, man.

[Kotowboy]

 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.

Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.

[KevShmev]

I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.

Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.

I mostly agree with this.

Portnoy has his moments as a singer given his limits as a vocalist (there are songs by NMB and Flying Colors both where he sings some lead that I like), but the problem in his DT days, like you said, is that he often tried to do too much because he wanted to be heard.  Take Home on Scenes Live from NY.  The harmonies during the first verse are ones where JLB is the lead and Portnoy (and Petrucci, I think) should be singing along to fill out the sound, but he is belting it out like he is trying to be louder than James, and then he does that thing at the end of the second line where he holds it an extra second or two after James had stopped, which sounds terrible.  And don't even get me started on that yelpy thing he did at the end of the Schmedley Wilcox medley they did on the SC tour.  The fact that he thought that was a good idea, and that either no one told it wasn't or that he ignored them and did it anyway, was a good indicator that he was drunk with too much power at that point.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

We got Winery Dogs out of it, which I would listen to over DT any day of the week, so I'm good with him having left.

[Max Kuehnau]

Him leaving DT was the best thing he ever did. Good for DT, good for him.

[gzarruk]

I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.

Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.

I mostly agree with this.

Portnoy has his moments as a singer given his limits as a vocalist (there are songs by NMB and Flying Colors both where he sings some lead that I like), but the problem in his DT days, like you said, is that he often tried to do too much because he wanted to be heard.  Take Home on Scenes Live from NY.  The harmonies during the first verse are ones where JLB is the lead and Portnoy (and Petrucci, I think) should be singing along to fill out the sound, but he is belting it out like he is trying to be louder than James, and then he does that thing at the end of the second line where he holds it an extra second or two after James had stopped, which sounds terrible.  And don't even get me started on that yelpy thing he did at the end of the Schmedley Wilcox medley they did on the SC tour.  The fact that he thought that was a good idea, and that either no one told it wasn't or that he ignored them and did it anyway, was a good indicator that he was drunk with too much power at that point.

Ah, the irony

Seriously, I think both of you are right about this. He made a really big deal about him being the "frontman" from behind the kit, and that started to mess with the music and live performances after a while (you already cited great examples). Because, as you said, his singing works great in some contexts, but that's when he's trying to be a team player and not the frontman/main singer of the band at that moment.

[TAC]

When we were all younger and in bands, there was always "that guy" that did all of the legwork.  MP was that guy, and even as DT became popular, MP still treated it as his boyhood little band. Honestly, I find that charming, and his enthusiasm is one of the things I miss in current DT.

[Trav86]

Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing “you can eat ass and balls” in the chorus? That was....interesting.