Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go

[MoraWintersoul]

But I like MM way more as a person - even with his slightly passive aggressive " I set my kit up weird Because people tell me not to " approach.

The two Mikes have something in common - they both let people get into their heads way too much and defend themselves and make us uncomfortable

[gzarruk]

Meanwhile, this is a comment MM made on one of his Facebook posts:

What great comments. So many. Let me address: Firstly, the kind comments about BOTH Mikes is the right thing to do and the right thing to read. You guys are nice, fair and also can enjoy both. The sound is as pure and real as mic'ing and some normal studio engineering can get - Jimmy T. did monitors and mixed the DVD. He has worked with me for years in the roles we have before final production etc. Our band enjoyment from the playing, to the final product and all kinds of things is a great thing. It isn't easy for any group of people to agree on a big pile of things. But when you agree on most things, it shows. I very much love that you can all experience, or relive this tour in some way. Peace to All. And prayers for our World!!

MM being classy as always. OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.

[ReaperKK]

I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.

I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.

I love elements of persuasion and I'm not even kidding I thought the drums were programmed on that album because they sounded robotic to me. I didn't realize MM played on that album until a few years ago.

[Peter Mc]

These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.

Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".

I'm pretty sure this is the last word for me (meaning, this says it all).   FOR ME - and I'm not a drummer, I'm a nobody who listens to this music to feel something I didn't before I put it on - I get more "return" from Portnoy.   There are DT(P) songs I'll be listening to, hear a drum part/fill, and rewind it to hear that part again, because I felt something.   I can't name one DT(M) that I've done that for (I have rewound to rehear something that seemed... odd to me, though).  It's me.  It's my taste, it's what I want to hear.   Doesn't make one or the other "better" absolutely, only better FOR ME.  Would that more people acknowledge that distinction (I'm not really referring to anyone here, just speaking generally).

The thing is, a guy that runs circles technically around him replaced him and suddenly he became the focus of the "he had more soul" argument. It's funny how things change, as I cannot imagine us having this conversation back in 2009, for example, when Portnoy was still atop his tower as leader of DT and one of the world's most important and flashy progressive drummers.

The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, though.   We didn't HAVE to have this conversation back in 2009 because there weren't two drummers and two sides to compare.   We're gently glossing over that the conversation covers more than just pure drumming ability.  There are people that mix the personal (not limited just to the fall out from the split) into this.   I've been called a "Portnoy Fanboy" more than once because I didn't join the "hate train" after the parting, and part of that was preferring Portnoy's playing (and I still do).

This is all perfectly well put, everyone is entitled to their own preferences, some will like one, some will like the other, some will think “it’s only the drummer, I don’t really care or notice the difference!”.  It’s the whole justification thing which grates a little.  As you said, it’s just personal taste, you like Portnoy more just because he’s more to your taste, I would probably say the same. It’s not because one has soul and the other is a robot, it’s not because one is more technically gifted than the other, it’s just personal taste.  In the grand scheme of things they are both fairly similar in that they are both extremely technical prog metal drummers. People talk as if they are polar opposites, they’re not, they’re pretty similar and that’s why he pretty much seamlessly stepped into Portnoy’s shoes and the band felt instantly comfortable with him.  To 99% of non-DT fans, if you played them a Portnoy era DT song and a Mangini era DT song, they would not know it was a different drummer.  We see the subtle differences as ultra DT fans and either prefer one or the other, I prefer Portnoy just but it’s not a big deal for me as a drummer is never going to make or break a band in my opinion in the same way as a soloist or singer does.  You have to be technically proficient to be in DT though obviously.

At the end of the day Mangini is a beast on drums and Portnoy is a beast also, they’re both amazing players and DT sound great with either of them.

[Setlist Scotty]

OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.

You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?

What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?

"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”

[gzarruk]

OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.

You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?

What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?

"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”

Well, I hadn't seen that one

But I did see one from around the time TSOAD was released where he was asked about DT and he kept saying things like "their drummer..." and I found it quite annoying that he couldn't just call him by his name, they were (are?) supposed to be friends.

[Ben_Jamin]

I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.

I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.

Again. On those, he wasn't using the kit he uses when he records for DT. That alone effects how the mix will sound. The kit he uses for DT, is actually the kit HE designed and always wanted to use in a band, but never felt the right band to use it in until he was welcomed to the family. And that kit is not engineer user friendly.

It's why that "The Enemy Inside" drum playthrough sounds better as well. He is using a kit that is easier to mix the cymbals, kick, and snare, without getting bleed from the other cymbals/drums/etc. Also, I don't think he wanted to bring that kit with him just for a clinic, and have to set it up and mic it.


Even though Portnoy's kit is big, You can shut the other mics off on the kit he isn't using. On Mangini's you can't, all the mics are on, And on Distant Memories, Mangini and the engineers had a great idea to mic the Toms separately, and the drums now sound more full. Could also be a reason why Mangini raised his cymbals, and he says its because he likes to challenge himself just to say that.  But, it's really to get a better mix from the cymbal mics without getting bleed from the other drums, so they can sound clearer and crispier.

[Ben_Jamin]

OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.

You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?

What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?

"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”

Well, I hadn't seen that one

But I did see one from around the time TSOAD was released where he was asked about DT and he kept saying things like "their drummer..." and I found it quite annoying that he couldn't just call him by his name, they were (are?) supposed to be friends.

Why can't MP mention Mangini as "their drummer"? Mangini is Dream Theater's Drummer, and if he's talking about Dream Theater, he is referencing Mangini as Dream Theater's Drummer, by saying "Their Drummer". I think we all know who Dream Theaters drummer is at this point. And I am assuming MP assumes people who are listening/reading that interview know who Dream Theaters drummer is. So he doesn't have to mention him by name.

[Nachtmerrie]

These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.

Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".

I'm pretty sure this is the last word for me (meaning, this says it all).   FOR ME - and I'm not a drummer, I'm a nobody who listens to this music to feel something I didn't before I put it on - I get more "return" from Portnoy.   There are DT(P) songs I'll be listening to, hear a drum part/fill, and rewind it to hear that part again, because I felt something.   I can't name one DT(M) that I've done that for (I have rewound to rehear something that seemed... odd to me, though).  It's me.  It's my taste, it's what I want to hear.   Doesn't make one or the other "better" absolutely, only better FOR ME.  Would that more people acknowledge that distinction (I'm not really referring to anyone here, just speaking generally).

That's exactly where I am in this discussion. It's not about which Mike is the better drummer, it's not about feel but all about personal taste. I enjoy MM's live presence and energy but in the end I also get more 'return and reward' from MP's playing.
And to be completely honest part of that also has to do with the MM albums all being among my least favorite DT-albums.

[Adami]

I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.

I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.

Again. On those, he wasn't using the kit he uses when he records for DT. That alone effects how the mix will sound. The kit he uses for DT, is actually the kit HE designed and always wanted to use in a band, but never felt the right band to use it in until he was welcomed to the family. And that kit is not engineer user friendly.

It's why that "The Enemy Inside" drum playthrough sounds better as well. He is using a kit that is easier to mix the cymbals, kick, and snare, without getting bleed from the other cymbals/drums/etc. Also, I don't think he wanted to bring that kit with him just for a clinic, and have to set it up and mic it.


Even though Portnoy's kit is big, You can shut the other mics off on the kit he isn't using. On Mangini's you can't, all the mics are on, And on Distant Memories, Mangini and the engineers had a great idea to mic the Toms separately, and the drums now sound more full. Could also be a reason why Mangini raised his cymbals, and he says its because he likes to challenge himself just to say that.  But, it's really to get a better mix from the cymbal mics without getting bleed from the other drums, so they can sound clearer and crispier.

Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about with much of that.

He can use any kit he wants with DT. Did he state somewhere that he was forced to use an inferior kit against his wishes or something? MM likes his drums to sound a certain way and that might not translate well in the studio for a DT record. And what are you talking about with muting mics? No one is muting MP's mics to make him sound better and not being able to do that with MM. They're different drums with different heads in different tunings played differently. It's not that MP had some super freedom that MM was denied.

And of course they mic'd his toms individually on the new release. They are (or at least SHOULD be) micing all of his drums individually on every single release, studio or live. That has nothing to do with anything unless I've missed some statement that, until this new DVD, they used one mic to record multiple drums at the same time and didn't give them individual mics. In which case...well that would be just stupid.

[Ben_Jamin]

I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.

I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.

Again. On those, he wasn't using the kit he uses when he records for DT. That alone effects how the mix will sound. The kit he uses for DT, is actually the kit HE designed and always wanted to use in a band, but never felt the right band to use it in until he was welcomed to the family. And that kit is not engineer user friendly.

It's why that "The Enemy Inside" drum playthrough sounds better as well. He is using a kit that is easier to mix the cymbals, kick, and snare, without getting bleed from the other cymbals/drums/etc. Also, I don't think he wanted to bring that kit with him just for a clinic, and have to set it up and mic it.


Even though Portnoy's kit is big, You can shut the other mics off on the kit he isn't using. On Mangini's you can't, all the mics are on, And on Distant Memories, Mangini and the engineers had a great idea to mic the Toms separately, and the drums now sound more full. Could also be a reason why Mangini raised his cymbals, and he says its because he likes to challenge himself just to say that.  But, it's really to get a better mix from the cymbal mics without getting bleed from the other drums, so they can sound clearer and crispier.

Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about with much of that.

He can use any kit he wants with DT. Did he state somewhere that he was forced to use an inferior kit against his wishes or something? MM likes his drums to sound a certain way and that might not translate well in the studio for a DT record. And what are you talking about with muting mics? No one is muting MP's mics to make him sound better and not being able to do that with MM. They're different drums with different heads in different tunings played differently. It's not that MP had some super freedom that MM was denied.

And of course they mic'd his toms individually on the new release. They are (or at least SHOULD be) micing all of his drums individually on every single release, studio or live. That has nothing to do with anything unless I've missed some statement that, until this new DVD, they used one mic to record multiple drums at the same time and didn't give them individual mics. In which case...well that would be just stupid.

On Elements of Persuasion, I don't think he recorded with the kit setup he uses in Dream Theater. Plus, he had a different Producer and Engineers for EoP.

The mic thing, was about the set up live. I am sure, they muted the mics that were not in use at the time, like on the cymbals and bass drum on MP's "progressive kit" side while he is on the "metal kit" side. While MM doesn't have sides, per se, and is all on one stool at all times.

And I am meaning how they mic'd his Toms from the Bottom heads instead of the Top Heads, on Distant Memories. (I can't find where I heard that from, I think from a youtube video, or one of Mangini's Instagrams).

Found a Youtube Video of him going through his Live kit.

“This record [the new DT album ‘Distance Over Time’] unfolded differently than any other one that I’ve done – because I was a part of that engineering process by default. Over the years, talking to Jimmy T [James Meslin, engineer] about frequencies I just don’t want in my drums – he soaked up all that and then did his thing, basically.

“I used to wonder why my sound got interpreted so differently than how I experienced it. But it’s just because people are in a different physical space. The drums sound differently from, like, three feet in front than 10 feet in front than behind the kit than down low than up above. Jimmy T put some microphones near my ears – let’s get some behind me and lower so those mics are picking up what I’m experiencing.

https://metalwani.com/2019/02/dream-theaters-mike-mangini-explains-his-drum-sound-throws-light-on-claims-of-terrible-drum-sound-on-distance-over-time.html

On D/T, according to Wiki, they didn't have an Engineer. They had Jimmy T, and he is listed as "Recording".    He has been working with them since DT though, and doing their live sounds as well.

I will say, he is the best thing to happen for their sound. Both D/T and Distant Memories sound amazing. The new album should sound just as good, if not even better, now we know how much he is working with the band. 



Edit: Here's another good one...https://youtu.be/H7UlBm-iuP8

[Stadler]

OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.

You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?

What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?

"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”

Well, I hadn't seen that one

But I did see one from around the time TSOAD was released where he was asked about DT and he kept saying things like "their drummer..." and I found it quite annoying that he couldn't just call him by his name, they were (are?) supposed to be friends.

Please don't take offense here; I'm commenting on the idea, not the person presenting the idea, but why?  What does it matter to you?   If we're at the level of critiquing one third party because of the way they refer to another third party, we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.  People have their way about it.   Mike M. is really the only person that has any standing to be put out about that, and frankly, I'd probably say the same thing to him:  control what you can control, and accept what you can't and move on.   

[Stadler]

“I used to wonder why my sound got interpreted so differently than how I experienced it. But it’s just because people are in a different physical space. The drums sound differently from, like, three feet in front than 10 feet in front than behind the kit than down low than up above. Jimmy T put some microphones near my ears – let’s get some behind me and lower so those mics are picking up what I’m experiencing.

So... basically they're recording Mike's farts?   

[Ben_Jamin]

“I used to wonder why my sound got interpreted so differently than how I experienced it. But it’s just because people are in a different physical space. The drums sound differently from, like, three feet in front than 10 feet in front than behind the kit than down low than up above. Jimmy T put some microphones near my ears – let’s get some behind me and lower so those mics are picking up what I’m experiencing.

So... basically they're recording Mike's farts?   

They use those for the click tracks..