Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go

[hunnus2000]

Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE?   I could be wrong on that.

I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.

If that's incorrect, then my apologies.

No. Portnoy was long gone by this point. Petrucci wrote the drum parts ( he claims he only wrote bass drum and snare for each song ) and Mangini either copid his parts and fleshed them out or wrote totally new ones based on what sounded best.

Interesting, kind of puts a dent in my theory... I'll see myself out haha

Maybe its just the production of that album... I can't put my finger on it but that album just never excites me to listen to it.

Also, I want to be clear on my original post that I still really enjoy a lot of Octavarium, SC, and BC&SL now.  At the time I was very disappointed because they felt like major departures of what I loved about DT.  However, I have since come to enjoy them a great deal, just nowhere near as much as the 90's stuff and SDOIT.

Yeah - it's the production of the album and they way MM's drum tones were captured and recorded. ADTOE needs a remaster.

[Peter Mc]

Well - A Dramatic Turn Of Events was written to a drum machine. Mangini wasn't even in the studio with them until he had to record his drum parts.

They recorded TO a drum machine - which MIGHT explain why it sounds a bit lifeless ??


* EDIT - actually i'm not 100% sure if Mangini was there when they were tracking - so I don't know if they RECORDED to the Superior Drummer skeleton drums or Mangini. **

Perhaps Bosky or someone can shed some light x





** I mean obviously Mike Mangini recorded drums on ADTOE - But did he put his live drums down FIRST or at THE END ?

Terminal Velocity was also done in this way though and doesn’t sound lifeless at all (not that I think ADTOE does either)  Petrucci’s parts were all recorded before Portnoy even picked up his sticks.

[Kotowboy]

My only problems with Mangini are

a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...

but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.

On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive

b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

[TheCountOfNYC]

My only problems with Mangini are...

...b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

I think that’s the biggest difference between the two drummers. Mangini’s playing highlights the music. Portnoy’s playing drives it.

[gzarruk]

b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

To be fair, I think that's how he *feels* the music, it's just his way of interpreting things. Remember, this is a guy who used to work programming codes for missile launch programs

Also, I seem to remember he said in an interview that he improvised his playing on most of TA.

[Ben_Jamin]

b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

To be fair, I think that's how he *feels* the music, it's just his way of interpreting things. Remember, this is a guy who used to work programming codes for missile launch programs

Also, I seem to remember he said in an interview that he improvised his playing on most of TA.

He's obviously a Math Nerd too. He's wearing a √7 Jersey. His first Dream Theater composition is about a guy who was obsessed with the number 137. Mangini basically breathes numbers, and math. It's how he thinks and views things apparently, based on his approach with rhythms. It makes sense he is a drummer though.

I was listening to Chaos In Motion, and while MP does "Drive" the song and brings the energy. It was odd hearing how he sped up parts, sometimes a little too much, and the band without a click, played some parts a bit too slow. An example is in Blind Fatih, Myung starts a bit slower than album speed, then when MP comes in with his drums, the tempo does sudden quick shift, and everything gets faster. There are sections where I feel for JP, because he has to play some difficult ass guitar parts, while MP decides to go Super Sayan speed, like Gigantour The Glass Prison. That alone could be a good reason for why the band enjoys playing with a click, it helps keep the song at a constant tempo, and I believe that is set by Mangini, and he can speed it up if he wants with his gadgets on the side.

I watched Pale Blue Dot and liked how It looks, and sounds. Manginis Tom's and Cymbals sound excellent. It's looking to be this era's Budakon in terms of video and sound quality. 

[Kotowboy]

Also, I seem to remember he said in an interview that he improvised his playing on most of TA.

I think that was just by dint of having to get it all done very quickly.

[Peter Mc]

There’s a feeling that TA is less technical than some of DT’s other releases and I wouldn’t dispute that but Mangini’s playing on that album is incredible at times.  I remember my nephew was only a toddler when the album came out and he had a toy guitar that he’d play and I’d have to be the drummer, air drumming along. When you actually have to concentrate on the drums on the album, there’s so much incredible, inventive playing with constantly changing fills. He was absolutely incredible in the live show of the TA tour as well.  Such a shame (and a weird decision imo) that we didn’t get a dvd of this tour.

[hunnus2000]

There’s a feeling that TA is less technical than some people of DT’s other releases and I wouldn’t dispute that but Mangini’s playing on that album is incredible at times.  I remember my nephew was only a toddler when the album came out and he had a toy guitar that he’d play and I’d have to be the drummer, air drumming along. When you actually have to concentrate on the drums on the album, there’s so much incredible, inventive playing with constantly changing fills. He was absolutely incredible in the live show of the TA tour as well.  Such a shame (and a weird decision imo) that we didn’t get a dvd of this tour.

Completely agree! That's why I think it's a shame that people pan this album because when you listen to MM, you can really  hear his  percussive side and there's a lot of nuanced playing. Sure he hangs back when it is needed but that's what Neil Peart used to call "serving the song".

[Ben_Jamin]

There’s a feeling that TA is less technical than some people of DT’s other releases and I wouldn’t dispute that but Mangini’s playing on that album is incredible at times.  I remember my nephew was only a toddler when the album came out and he had a toy guitar that he’d play and I’d have to be the drummer, air drumming along. When you actually have to concentrate on the drums on the album, there’s so much incredible, inventive playing with constantly changing fills. He was absolutely incredible in the live show of the TA tour as well.  Such a shame (and a weird decision imo) that we didn’t get a dvd of this tour.

Completely agree! That's why I think it's a shame that people pan this album because when you listen to MM, you can really  hear his  percussive side and there's a lot of nuanced playing. Sure he hangs back when it is needed but that's what Neil Peart used to call "serving the song".

Yup, It's a different way to look at how to compose drum parts.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

MM is an amazing drum composer and orchestrator. He really approaches composition in a very thought-out way, as opposed to Portnoy's more rock and feel-oriented style. Both are amazing ways of writing and performing drum parts, but MM's nuanced orchestration really benefited TA greatly. That can be seen in their live performances very clearly, as Portnoy is usually changing things up because he plays as he feels them and not much as he composed them for their studio recording, wheras MM is the opposite.

I remember there's this YouTube video in which this guy basically shits on MM saying that Portnoy could've done a much better job during the outro solo of "A New Beginning", which is completely absurd in most regards. MM knows when to overplay and do crazy technical stuff that leaves everyone's jaws open but he knows when to stay in the back just playing a simple rock beat. Not to say Portnoy is not good in this area (the guy can be really musical when we wants to be), but I definitely think Mangini's feel in this area is more refined, in the lack of a better word to describe it.

[gzarruk]

Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...

but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums.

I was scrolling through MM's last few FB posts and checking the comments because he usually answers a few questions on each post and I found his explanation for not using the 4 bass drums anymore, so I came here searching for this post to reply.

Somebody asked why he stopped using the 26” and 18” kicks, and he answered:

I was asked to reconsider them and just use "regular" ones.

He also said in another comment:

I do have a large kit set up in my studio - the one I used on my recordings there + for Zoom Lessons. Not the multi kicks though. I miss them. They're so much fun. I will say that I should set up one of these past DT kits up one day with twice as much stuff to just be happy and not care about a thing but making noises. No time these days. The post goes along with reminiscing about past things.

So it seems, to me, like it was a logistics based decision, since it isn't cheap to move such a massive kit around the world. He did have two smaller ones with electonic pads for the DT12 tour tho, but then went to only 2 22''s from 2015 to 2017.

As for him only using one now, he also answered that a couple times. I don't have the exact quote now, but he basically said that we wanted to use 24'' bass drums for D/T but he couldn't fit two of them and keep the tom positioning he likes, so he went only with one, and he seems to dig that for DT now.

[Ben_Jamin]

Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...

but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums.

I was scrolling through MM's last few FB posts and checking the comments because he usually answers a few questions on each post and I found his explanation for not using the 4 bass drums anymore, so I came here searching for this post to reply.

Somebody asked why he stopped using the 26” and 18” kicks, and he answered:

I was asked to reconsider them and just use "regular" ones.

He also said in another comment:

I do have a large kit set up in my studio - the one I used on my recordings there + for Zoom Lessons. Not the multi kicks though. I miss them. They're so much fun. I will say that I should set up one of these past DT kits up one day with twice as much stuff to just be happy and not care about a thing but making noises. No time these days. The post goes along with reminiscing about past things.

So it seems, to me, like it was a logistics based decision, since it isn't cheap to move such a massive kit around the world. He did have two smaller ones with electonic pads for the DT12 tour tho, but then went to only 2 22''s from 2015 to 2017.

As for him only using one now, he also answered that a couple times. I don't have the exact quote now, but he basically said that we wanted to use 24'' bass drums for D/T but he couldn't fit two of them and keep the tom positioning he likes, so he went only with one, and he seems to dig that for DT now.

Could have been for the mix, as well.

[bosk1]

As for him only using one now, he also answered that a couple times. I don't have the exact quote now, but he basically said that we wanted to use 24'' bass drums for D/T but he couldn't fit two of them and keep the tom positioning he likes, so he went only with one, and he seems to dig that for DT now.

I wonder if he has ever thought about having a custom riser built that could have two sunken areas for the bass drums so that the base of each is, say, 2" lower than the rest of the riser floor, so that he could have the 24s without them elevating the toms to an uncomfortable height.  I know something like that is a bit complicated, but look at what Jordan has has designed for him by way of keyboard stands. 

[lovethedrake]

MM is an amazing drum composer and orchestrator. He really approaches composition in a very thought-out way, as opposed to Portnoy's more rock and feel-oriented style. Both are amazing ways of writing and performing drum parts, but MM's nuanced orchestration really benefited TA greatly. That can be seen in their live performances very clearly, as Portnoy is usually changing things up because he plays as he feels them and not much as he composed them for their studio recording, wheras MM is the opposite.

I remember there's this YouTube video in which this guy basically shits on MM saying that Portnoy could've done a much better job during the outro solo of "A New Beginning", which is completely absurd in most regards. MM knows when to overplay and do crazy technical stuff that leaves everyone's jaws open but he knows when to stay in the back just playing a simple rock beat. Not to say Portnoy is not good in this area (the guy can be really musical when we wants to be), but I definitely think Mangini's feel in this area is more refined, in the lack of a better word to describe it.

Mangini has really grown on me and has some killer drum parts... I think he absolutely crushed the entire album of DOT.    However, I completely agree with whoever voiced criticism on Mangini's drumming in the outro of the "A New Beginnining".  I don't know who is to blame for it but Mangini's drumming and inability to groove there while doing nothing of interest is what holds that solo back from being one of the all time Petrucci greats.    That's of course just my opinion and it could have been Petrucci who wrote the drum part so I have no idea.    That is certainly a section where I think Portnoy would have shined.

[Stadler]

I was listening to Chaos In Motion, and while MP does "Drive" the song and brings the energy. It was odd hearing how he sped up parts, sometimes a little too much, and the band without a click, played some parts a bit too slow. An example is in Blind Fatih, Myung starts a bit slower than album speed, then when MP comes in with his drums, the tempo does sudden quick shift, and everything gets faster. There are sections where I feel for JP, because he has to play some difficult ass guitar parts, while MP decides to go Super Sayan speed, like Gigantour The Glass Prison. That alone could be a good reason for why the band enjoys playing with a click, it helps keep the song at a constant tempo, and I believe that is set by Mangini, and he can speed it up if he wants with his gadgets on the side.

And that's crucial.   My opinion only, but that's why so many Led Zeppelin covers are inferior.  They don't breathe.   The best Zeppelin - and when it was on it was untouchable - was always very fluid, and the best covers capture that (that's why, IMO, the Heart version of Stairway was so impactful; you had Jason playing - in both senses of the word - with the song and tempos).

[gzarruk]

MM is an amazing drum composer and orchestrator. He really approaches composition in a very thought-out way, as opposed to Portnoy's more rock and feel-oriented style. Both are amazing ways of writing and performing drum parts, but MM's nuanced orchestration really benefited TA greatly. That can be seen in their live performances very clearly, as Portnoy is usually changing things up because he plays as he feels them and not much as he composed them for their studio recording, wheras MM is the opposite.

I remember there's this YouTube video in which this guy basically shits on MM saying that Portnoy could've done a much better job during the outro solo of "A New Beginning", which is completely absurd in most regards. MM knows when to overplay and do crazy technical stuff that leaves everyone's jaws open but he knows when to stay in the back just playing a simple rock beat. Not to say Portnoy is not good in this area (the guy can be really musical when we wants to be), but I definitely think Mangini's feel in this area is more refined, in the lack of a better word to describe it.

Mangini has really grown on me and has some killer drum parts... I think he absolutely crushed the entire album of DOT.    However, I completely agree with whoever voiced criticism on Mangini's drumming in the outro of the "A New Beginnining".  I don't know who is to blame for it but Mangini's drumming and inability to groove there while doing nothing of interest is what holds that solo back from being one of the all time Petrucci greats.    That's of course just my opinion and it could have been Petrucci who wrote the drum part so I have no idea.    That is certainly a section where I think Portnoy would have shined.

The approach for that section is definitely a conscious production decision. MM definitely knows how to highlight a guitar solo section with great technical playing (The Looking Glass and Surrender to Reason come to mind), but here it's clearly an intentional call to just play a straight beat, and I find it works great with JM's bass line to support the crazy JP solo. It all helps create an specific mood, and it totally delivers imo.

It's not about who could've played it better, it's all about choosing the best approach for that particular section and what they (or JP as the producer) wanted to achieve with it.

EDIT: I also find MM's drumming in Our New World to be quite simple, yet it works well for a more straight rock song. Similar to that, MP did nothing interesting on TALW, but again, the drumming fit that song well.

[Herrick]

I really don't see how Mangini is failing to groove during that solo in A New Beginning 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

My only problems with Mangini are

a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...

but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.

On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive

b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

Feel is an incredibly subjective word that means something entirely different to everyone and that I think doesn't mean much in a musical argument. I sense tons of feel from Mangini's playing but maybe you don't, and that's OK; but in a broader sense of the word that doesn't mean he's not being musical in his way of playing. You can't get more mathematical in your musical construction than J.S. Bach, to give you an example, and that doesn't mean his compositions lack any "feel".

Also, I do see his desire of having 4 bass drums back in 2011/2012 as something that could be musically justified but it's OK if they were also a little bit for show. Sure, you can get different tones out of them but I don't care if they made a big ass kit for him because they kinda needed to do so back then. I can assure you Rick Wakeman doesn't need to have a keyboard rig of 16 different hardware synthesizers to pull off his show but he has them because he can, because it looks cool and because the visual aspect of a show is as important as the musical part. As I stated earlier in this thread (if memory serves me right), MP clearly didn't have the musical need of having a siamese two-kits-in-one set but he had the resources to do it and it was a cool idea for him, and I don't see much people criticizing that.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.

Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.

[Podaar]

However, I completely agree with whoever voiced criticism on Mangini's drumming in the outro of the "A New Beginnining".  I don't know who is to blame for it but Mangini's drumming and inability to groove there while doing nothing of interest is what holds that solo back from being one of the all time Petrucci greats.

I really don't see how Mangini is failing to groove during that solo in A New Beginning 

^This

[ReaperKK]

My only problems with Mangini are

a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...

but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.

On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive

b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

agree with all of this 100%

[hunnus2000]

Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.

Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.

I came across a video many moons ago of MM playing to a recorded Steve Vai song and he had a huge kit but his cymbals were up pretty high so I think your right, "cymbals in the sky" has been a norm for him.

As far as the MM robotic comments, when I read "MM is robotic" I just replace those words for "MM is not MP" because that's what I think people are really saying. MM is a joy to watch live and I think he's just as much of a showman as MP, just in his own way.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.

Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.

I came across a video many moons ago of MM playing to a recorded Steve Vai song and he had a huge kit but his cymbals were up pretty high so I think your right, "cymbals in the sky" has been a norm for him.

As far as the MM robotic comments, when I read "MM is robotic" I just replace those words for "MM is not MP" because that's what I think people are really saying. MM is a joy to watch live and I think he's just as much of a showman as MP, just in his own way.

I find Manginis drumming to be really accurate. SO accurate that people think he sounds robotic. He is actually very musical, because he can use his drums to follow the rhytm of the Keys, Bass, and Guitar.

[hunnus2000]

Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.

Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.

I came across a video many moons ago of MM playing to a recorded Steve Vai song and he had a huge kit but his cymbals were up pretty high so I think your right, "cymbals in the sky" has been a norm for him.

As far as the MM robotic comments, when I read "MM is robotic" I just replace those words for "MM is not MP" because that's what I think people are really saying. MM is a joy to watch live and I think he's just as much of a showman as MP, just in his own way.

I find Manginis drumming to be really accurate. SO accurate that people think he sounds robotic. He is actually very musical, because he can use his drums to follow the rhytm of the Keys, Bass, and Guitar.

And the fact that he's omnidextrous makes it fun to watch him play. A friend of ours saw DT for the first time in Chicago and commented on how he was amazed at how MM drummed with ease with both right and left arms.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Also, they're playing to a click track these days. They didn't do that before in the MP days, so that also plays a big role with the way things are perceived and that has nothing to do with MM's "robotic-ness" or whatever thing people say to imply that he's way too precise lol.

[Peter Mc]

My only problems with Mangini are

a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...

but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.

On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive

b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing

I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.

Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.

YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?

agree with all of this 100%

I don’t necessarily disagree with some of this but the guy is a drummer, he’s there to keep time so why wouldn’t he talk about time signatures, that’s his job.  I do laugh as well at the “Portnoy plays with feel and soul” brigade.  He’s literally the poster child for technical over the top drumming.  He is not some feel player who plays for the song, he is a wildly self-indulgent show off drummer.  Don’t get me wrong, I like his drumming but I have drummer friends who laugh at how ridiculous he is and call him the Yngwie of drumming, they all say Mangini is much better and plays more for the song.  I personally like both but the sentimental side of me would always favour a Portnoy return just because he is a member of the band during their classic era.

[hunnus2000]

LOL - well maybe DT could do the kitchen sink tour during their waning days and bring everyone back for "One Last Tour " 

 

[MoraWintersoul]

These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.

Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".

[gzarruk]

I don’t necessarily disagree with some of this but the guy is a drummer, he’s there to keep time so why wouldn’t he talk about time signatures, that’s his job.  I do laugh as well at the “Portnoy plays with feel and soul” brigade. He’s literally the poster child for technical over the top drumming.  He is not some feel player who plays for the song, he is a wildly self-indulgent show off drummer.  Don’t get me wrong, I like his drumming but I have drummer friends who laugh at how ridiculous he is and call him the Yngwie of drumming, they all say Mangini is much better and plays more for the song.  I personally like both but the sentimental side of me would always favour a Portnoy return just because he is a member of the band during their classic era.

Finally someone said it. Prepare for the storm, though

These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.

Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".

As always, great post.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

b]He’s literally the poster child for technical over the top drumming.  He is not some feel player who plays for the song, he is a wildly self-indulgent show off drummer.[/b]

Yeah, this is an amazing point. For years and years, Portnoy was the big poster boy and walking image of the quintaessential progressive drummer: technical, fast and precise. He actually filmed videos in which he explained in detail the complex aspects of his drumming and people were all like OMG HE'S THE BEST DRUMMER EVER. The thing is, a guy that runs circles technically around him replaced him and suddenly he became the focus of the "he had more soul" argument. It's funny how things change, as I cannot imagine us having this conversation back in 2009, for example, when Portnoy was still atop his tower as leader of DT and one of the world's most important and flashy progressive drummers.

It's funny when people criticize Mangini's approach to Petrucci's solo in a New Beginning, the so-called Billy Jean beat, when basically he's doing everything people never expected out of him, to just stay back and play a simple 1-3 groove; and for years and years the musicians I've worked with (both at the Conservatory I teach at and people from my local progressive scene) always talked about how they felt Portnoy overplayed stuff, and somewhat I agree. But hey, that's not entirely a bad thing. People loved when he overplayed stuff because basically every little nuance he did was a showcase of his innate talent, and if DT fans get off with something is the idea of: "man, my favorite band has the world's leading performers in every instrument and some guy who sings the lyrics lol."

[lovethedrake]

Exactly... I’m not listening to dream theater to hear them lay back.  I want them to be going all out and overplaying while still making amazing songs.  That’s how I would define their entire classic period from images and words to train of thought.   They started to lose that on octavarium imo.

[Kotowboy]

Mike was probably my fave member of DT until the split - and I loved his drumming style ( same 5 fills in every song aside...)

But I like MM way more as a person - even with his slightly passive aggressive " I set my kit up weird Because people tell me not to " approach.

MM does "rock out" a lot more live than in the studio too. I'd like to see MM with a bit more of a traditional setup in DT though...


...something like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ

[Stadler]

These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.

Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".

I'm pretty sure this is the last word for me (meaning, this says it all).   FOR ME - and I'm not a drummer, I'm a nobody who listens to this music to feel something I didn't before I put it on - I get more "return" from Portnoy.   There are DT(P) songs I'll be listening to, hear a drum part/fill, and rewind it to hear that part again, because I felt something.   I can't name one DT(M) that I've done that for (I have rewound to rehear something that seemed... odd to me, though).  It's me.  It's my taste, it's what I want to hear.   Doesn't make one or the other "better" absolutely, only better FOR ME.  Would that more people acknowledge that distinction (I'm not really referring to anyone here, just speaking generally).

The thing is, a guy that runs circles technically around him replaced him and suddenly he became the focus of the "he had more soul" argument. It's funny how things change, as I cannot imagine us having this conversation back in 2009, for example, when Portnoy was still atop his tower as leader of DT and one of the world's most important and flashy progressive drummers.

The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, though.   We didn't HAVE to have this conversation back in 2009 because there weren't two drummers and two sides to compare.   We're gently glossing over that the conversation covers more than just pure drumming ability.  There are people that mix the personal (not limited just to the fall out from the split) into this.   I've been called a "Portnoy Fanboy" more than once because I didn't join the "hate train" after the parting, and part of that was preferring Portnoy's playing (and I still do).

[nikatapi]

I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.

I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.