Author Topic: You're cancelled!  (Read 15957 times)

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Offline Chino

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2020, 09:54:33 AM »
I think in that moment that was a distinction without a difference.  Only my humble opinion of couse, I don't want to harsh anyone's buzz on the show but I know that for me their centrist/libertarian take on certain things was a turn off after a while. So my favorite South Park thing remains the Bigger, Longer, Uncut movie, I think the whoie concept peaked there.

I am not a South Park guy, so manbearpig with me, but this is an important point: why does a "position" matter on anything other than an individual level?  For many, left/liberal positions are a "turn off", and for others right/conservative are.   It shouldn't matter, beyond the individual, what that is.  Take it or leave it.   I know for me, the way certain shows (Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist comes to mind immediately) just "assume" that the left/liberal take is the morally, spiritually, and social correct position without debate is exhausting, but it is what it is.  I like Peter Gallagher, so I watch. 

For me, making fun of Al Gore or the cause is an immaterial point. They should be able to do either if they feel they have a point to be made.  I don't know why that distinction is relevant; to me it doesn't even go to the things we're talking about here (intent, for lack of a better word).

Totally. But wasn't Xe just saying what turns him off rather than saying they shouldn't be able to do it? As far as I know, he's just choosing not to watch because it's not his thing.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #106 on: June 22, 2020, 10:43:12 AM »
I think in that moment that was a distinction without a difference.  Only my humble opinion of couse, I don't want to harsh anyone's buzz on the show but I know that for me their centrist/libertarian take on certain things was a turn off after a while. So my favorite South Park thing remains the Bigger, Longer, Uncut movie, I think the whoie concept peaked there.

I am not a South Park guy, so manbearpig with me, but this is an important point: why does a "position" matter on anything other than an individual level?  For many, left/liberal positions are a "turn off", and for others right/conservative are.   It shouldn't matter, beyond the individual, what that is.  Take it or leave it.   I know for me, the way certain shows (Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist comes to mind immediately) just "assume" that the left/liberal take is the morally, spiritually, and social correct position without debate is exhausting, but it is what it is.  I like Peter Gallagher, so I watch. 

For me, making fun of Al Gore or the cause is an immaterial point. They should be able to do either if they feel they have a point to be made.  I don't know why that distinction is relevant; to me it doesn't even go to the things we're talking about here (intent, for lack of a better word).

Totally. But wasn't Xe just saying what turns him off rather than saying they shouldn't be able to do it? As far as I know, he's just choosing not to watch because it's not his thing.

I'm not commenting on Xe's opinion; I covered that ("It shouldn't matter, beyond the individual,...").   But he was responding to a specific point that Chino made that seemed to make a value judgment between making fun of GORE and making fun of CLIMATE CHANGE.  I asked a question.   I have a pretty good understanding where Xe's personal position falls, and I have nothing to say about that.  That's his, and his alone.   But he DID say that Chino's value judgment was a "distinction without a difference", and I asked why that even mattered?  Xe doesn't always like having to defend or explain his position, so perhaps I should have asked Chino, but I'm getting at why the assessment of the integrity and validity of the South Park guys hinges on what they target.   

Offline Adami

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2020, 10:50:29 AM »
Fair! I am not quite on earth this week, so I probably just missed that.


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Online Anguyen92

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2020, 07:18:27 PM »
Don't know if this is related, but I got to get it out there.

So in the video game world, over the past weekend, a lot of people are stepping up and outed a whole lot of people over misconducts (sexual or otherwise), professionally or personally.  Twitch streamers, Youtubers, even CEOs of management companies.  One of the people that got outed was a Youtuber/Streamer that I have followed his content for around 5-6 years.  Been subbed to his Twitch channel for that long. He's been accused of Child Grooming.  Right now, his community has been in disarray over what happened (but they are having healthy discussions on his Discord channel), his ex-girlfriend has been coming out with comments relating to this, his best friends when he started doing streams on Twitch haven't been legit friends for a long while now (even though they still do weekly streams together until this hit the ceiling, probably due to the fact that the money is too much to give up).

I think it's one of those things where I thought for a good while, I wasn't able to enjoy his streams for a good while now.  I didn't know why.  I thought it was a me thing where I got to a point of life where enjoyed other kinds of content moreso than his and his group and that's just how life works.  I still think that was the case on why I didn't watch his content much regardless of any accusations that has been made.  Now I just don't feel like supporting him anymore and I think a lot of his community feels that way as well.  His content is going to take a huge hit in visibility and attraction.  It's a shock to me that he would do something like this and I hope justice and vindication will be served to the victims affected it. 

I'll get over the fact that I won't watch the guy anymore, but I always think what would happen to the people I look up to the most and it turns out they would do awful things to people while that guy was not quite up there, but I had a certain level of respect for the guy and how he carried himself on streams and on videos.  Don't know what I would if I read the news and so-so that I really looked up to in life got accused of an extreme level of misconduct and I would think, "Wow, that's the last person I thought would do something like that."  It boggles the mind.  I guess people can't really have entertainers to look up to as heroes in this day anymore, because you never know what they can be like at their darkest moments in the present.

Offline Chino

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #109 on: June 26, 2020, 06:23:12 AM »
Jenna Marbles quits youtube after "black face" backlash. She made a Nikki Minaj parody video in 2011 and it's suddenly a problem. I think her reasons for quitting are ridiculous and causing more damage than any of her videos ever did, but that's just me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz3mQhuMACs


Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2020, 08:51:19 AM »
The entire backlash against 'things' of a different era and time is ridiculous. Tearing down statues, ending careers over black face......it harms the movement IMO. I know that when I see a group of people tearing down a statue or whining because a comedian did blackface 10 or 20 y ears ago all I do is think the group are nothing but a bunch of vandals and the person/people whining about the comedian/actors are just babies. Their 'point' or movement is lost on me then.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2020, 09:42:44 AM »
You can’t separate these actions from the legitimate issues the movement raises?  Are you not able to be upset at statues being torn down, and also agree and be supportive of the movement to fix many of the societal issues facing Black People?  If the “point” or “movement” is lost on you because of that, it just sounds like you may have just been looking for a reason to not support it.  Don’t conflate the two things.  Rioters are not the movement.  It is really easy to separate the two if you want to.
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Offline kaos2900

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #112 on: June 26, 2020, 10:19:09 AM »
I don't see the point of comedians having to apologize for doing something 10 years ago. If they did it now I'd understand the backlash. Jimmy Kimmel from the Man Show era would not fly today but because it did when it was on shouldn't impact his career now.

Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #113 on: June 26, 2020, 12:32:33 PM »
You can’t separate these actions from the legitimate issues the movement raises?  Are you not able to be upset at statues being torn down, and also agree and be supportive of the movement to fix many of the societal issues facing Black People?  If the “point” or “movement” is lost on you because of that, it just sounds like you may have just been looking for a reason to not support it.  Don’t conflate the two things.  Rioters are not the movement.  It is really easy to separate the two if you want to.
I share Gary's annoyance at what's going on, mostly because I think it's short-sighted and devoid of nuance, but this is a really good post.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #114 on: June 26, 2020, 12:36:16 PM »
You can’t separate these actions from the legitimate issues the movement raises?  Are you not able to be upset at statues being torn down, and also agree and be supportive of the movement to fix many of the societal issues facing Black People?  If the “point” or “movement” is lost on you because of that, it just sounds like you may have just been looking for a reason to not support it.  Don’t conflate the two things.  Rioters are not the movement.  It is really easy to separate the two if you want to.

I could see that if the movement itself dismissed the violence and looting, but they are not. Also, the media is also causing it by speaking these narratives in their news speak. Don't forget Aunt Jemima happened because "On June 15, 2020, Miami-based singer-songwriter Kirby Maurier posted a TikTok video called "How Not to Make a Racist Breakfast" that drew attention to the fact that many brands' logos and images, like Aunt, are still deeply rooted in offensive stereotypes."
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #115 on: June 26, 2020, 01:05:07 PM »
You can’t separate these actions from the legitimate issues the movement raises?  Are you not able to be upset at statues being torn down, and also agree and be supportive of the movement to fix many of the societal issues facing Black People?  If the “point” or “movement” is lost on you because of that, it just sounds like you may have just been looking for a reason to not support it.  Don’t conflate the two things.  Rioters are not the movement.  It is really easy to separate the two if you want to.
I share Gary's annoyance at what's going on, mostly because I think it's short-sighted and devoid of nuance, but this is a really good post.

EB summed it up.....it's annoying. Certainly I see the legitimacy behind the recent movement.....but IMO tearing down statues, shaming comedians for decades old footage and renaming pancake syrup does nothing to rectify what's wrong.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #116 on: June 26, 2020, 01:06:58 PM »
Again, I can separate what individuals say or do, from the larger point of the movement.  You said in the other thread that we need to look at this with emotion and feelings, because other human beings are being treated poorly.  I won’t let a Tik Toker affect my position on racial injustice.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #117 on: June 26, 2020, 01:10:12 PM »
You can’t separate these actions from the legitimate issues the movement raises?  Are you not able to be upset at statues being torn down, and also agree and be supportive of the movement to fix many of the societal issues facing Black People?  If the “point” or “movement” is lost on you because of that, it just sounds like you may have just been looking for a reason to not support it.  Don’t conflate the two things.  Rioters are not the movement.  It is really easy to separate the two if you want to.
I share Gary's annoyance at what's going on, mostly because I think it's short-sighted and devoid of nuance, but this is a really good post.

EB summed it up.....it's annoying. Certainly I see the legitimacy behind the recent movement.....but IMO tearing down statues, shaming comedians for decades old footage and renaming pancake syrup does nothing to rectify what's wrong.

Of course it can be annoying..... but to then say that the “point of their movement is lost on me”?
That doesn’t “clearly” say you see the legitimacy in the movement at all.  You understand why I posted what I did?
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #118 on: June 26, 2020, 01:10:51 PM »
You can’t separate these actions from the legitimate issues the movement raises?  Are you not able to be upset at statues being torn down, and also agree and be supportive of the movement to fix many of the societal issues facing Black People?  If the “point” or “movement” is lost on you because of that, it just sounds like you may have just been looking for a reason to not support it.  Don’t conflate the two things.  Rioters are not the movement.  It is really easy to separate the two if you want to.
I share Gary's annoyance at what's going on, mostly because I think it's short-sighted and devoid of nuance, but this is a really good post.

EB summed it up.....it's annoying. Certainly I see the legitimacy behind the recent movement.....but IMO tearing down statues, shaming comedians for decades old footage and renaming pancake syrup does nothing to rectify what's wrong.

It doesn't help at all. I don't understand why company's aren't more stern and just give in to any kind of backlash, sure you might lose some profits and they might not be as big, but you'll still have that brand. It's all money, they don't want to spend on hiring lawyers, and all that comes with defending their position. They find it easier to just wash it away and never have to deal with it again.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #119 on: June 26, 2020, 01:31:24 PM »
Of course it can be annoying..... but to then say that the “point of their movement is lost on me”?
That doesn’t “clearly” say you see the legitimacy in the movement at all.  You understand why I posted what I did?

Yeah.....I could have been more concise. If I were one of these leaders who are making great points via social media and having nice peaceful and productive protests and gatherings......I'd be irate with the statue's being torn down and all the vandalism. It's severely distracting and detracting to the important cause going on.

One of the issue's that I see is the media is selling the statue crap and attacks on pancake syrup as the same thing as the movement of awareness and they aren't.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2020, 01:39:00 PM »
What’s more important to you, and to our society?  The movement to stop racial and social injustice, or the tearing down of statues?  Because while both can be important, one is WAY more important than the other.  One is a piece of sculpted metal that pigeons shit on, and if our society feels it should be replaced, we can make another one.  The other is actual people being murdered, and millions being treated horribly for hundreds of years.  Why would you conflate those two issues?  Why would the majority of ones posts be about the annoyance of statue mistreatments, and not about the mistreating of real people? 

It is severely distracting and detracting because you LET it be that way.  Are you a slave to the media?  Do you think one way because they tell you?  Cmon man.

We can care about both, but to let people mistreating statues lessen your involvement in people mistreating people, is a sad thing IMO.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 01:48:07 PM by eric42434224 »
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2020, 01:53:02 PM »
Why would the majority of ones posts be about the annoyance of statues, and not about real people? 

Because I have nothing left to say about the other issue. Truth is, I don't think 'I' am part of the problem. The way I live my life and raise my children does nothing to compound the issue at hand.....I've taken stock of 'my' contributions and actions....both good and bad.....to the oppression of black people and feel without a doubt I am not part of the problem

I also am not a politician, city leader, CEO, or in any position of real power to really help or do anything about some of the systematic issues black people face. So I take care of what I can control. Raising my kids to be aware of what is being talked about and why.....keep mindful of if I see something that I have control over that can help then I answer the call.

I don't think I'll ever be 'good' with Destruction of Federal property from or by any group. The only way to 'defeat' the Federal government is to evict the people in power by elections and get folks in there that truly want to change the system. 'We' as a country haven't done that and show no signs of really wanting to do what it takes to do it. Vandalizing and civil unrest is not going to work......we're simply not organized or committed enough for that method to work.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2020, 02:03:55 PM »
It isn’t about you thinking you aren’t part of the problem.  The fact is that there IS a problem.  And to be more concerned about statues than people makes me think you haven’t looked deep enough.  To say that the former takes away legitimacy of the latter shows me you DO have more to say on the matter, and makes me think your assessment of yourself in this context might not be complete.

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2020, 02:04:40 PM »
Not to mention that this thread is about the “cancel culture,” so your posts about statues being destroyed are completely on topic, Gary, so don’t let yourself get shamed by posters who apparently do not realize this.

Edit: this was a reply to Gary’s post, not the one after.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 02:10:32 PM by KevShmev »

Offline kaos2900

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2020, 02:06:37 PM »
I could care less about statues other than the fact that there should be conversation prior to their removal. These knee jerk reactions are what concerns me.

Gary, I'm with you 100%. My contribution to society is how I'm raising my children and treating others. I've never owned another person. My ancestors (to my knowledge) have never owned another person. I empathize and 100% believe that racism and hatred and ignorance is a problem and pervasive in society (both locally and globally). That all being said I do not feel guilty or ashamed and will not be made to feel guilty or ashamed because I happened to be born a white male in the middle of the country. Just like I hope that other people don't feel guilty or ashamed for being born with a different skin color or desire towards a certain gender.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2020, 02:10:27 PM »
Not to mention that this thread is about the “cancel culture,” so your posts about statues being destroyed are completely on topic, Gary, so don’t let yourself get shamed by posters who apparently do not realize this.

I have no issue with anyone’s feelings regarding the statue issue.  Never said otherwise.  What I did respond to was the introduction that the statue issue was the reason for the black social injustice movement having somehow lost legitimacy.  Is my distinction clear?  This isn’t about shaming.  It is about conflating the two VERY different issues.
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Offline Chino

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2020, 02:13:21 PM »
Not to mention that this thread is about the “cancel culture,” so your posts about statues being destroyed are completely on topic, Gary, so don’t let yourself get shamed by posters who apparently do not realize this.

Edit: this was a reply to Gary’s post, not the one after.

No one is shaming anybody here.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #127 on: June 26, 2020, 02:14:32 PM »
It isn’t about you thinking you aren’t part of the problem.  The fact is that there IS a problem.  And to be more concerned about statues than people makes me think you haven’t looked deep enough.  To say that the former takes away legitimacy of the latter shows me you DO have more to say on the matter, and makes me think your assessment of yourself in this context might not be complete.

I certainly have more to say about it but there's simply no way I'd discuss it in this forum/context. I'm well aware of most of the personalities around here and first off it'd be misconstrued somehow......like this conversation.......and secondly I honestly don't think it'd do one bit of good to talk about it any further than has been talked about.

I've already acknowledge that:

The fact is that there IS a problem.

Never suggested there wasn't. I'm not

more concerned about statues than people

I am stating that as Kev pointed out.....in the context of this thread.......tearing down statues and renaming pancake syrup does nothing for the real cause. Actually, it does do something.....it distracts and minimizes the real issues. One thing I do agree with trump on is it's ridiculous for these cities to continue to allow it to happen....allow little 'zones' to be made etc etc.

And:

and makes me think your assessment of yourself in this context might not be complete.

I'm completely lucid about my personal assessment. If there's anyone that needs an assessment it's you because despite your best efforts in posts saying 'these debates aren't personal'.....it's odd how your posts always come off as taking shots at folks?

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Offline Stadler

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #128 on: June 26, 2020, 02:18:11 PM »
Gary, I see your point here, though for me, "annoying" is the wrong word.   Too often our - human - disagreements are about fundamental aspects of the human condition, and not the details of the moment.   The tearing down of statues isn't just about the statue.  It's symbolic of what the statue stands for, and in this case it's history and power.   The premise for tearing down the statue is that it represents a false history; well, the world without the things like the statue, like the comedic routines, like the movies, is equally false history.  The actual tearing down of the statue is about the exertion of power, and in that sense is equally as indiscriminate.   To me, neither of these serve to solve the problem, and in fact, may make that solution harder to achieve.   I can't speak for you, Gary, but I know for me, it's not about whether a statue has any innate value (generally, or as compared to a human life); it's whether the role of the statue (or it's destruction) is impeding our efforts to maximize the value we put on human life. 

This is where I was headed in the other thread regarding feelings; it's fascinating to me how frequently our - meaning humans - disagreements are really about fundamental aspects of the human condition.   "Tribalism" has been cited as root of the racial problem, and yet too often the response to that has been an equal and opposite tribalism.  That ought to tell us something; there's a REASON for it, there's a safety in it.   So if we're interested in minimizing racial and social injustice, we need to find a way to provide that innate human need - safety - without the segregation (in the pure sense of the word) that tribalism brings.   That's not a "white" problem, that's not a "black" problem, that's a HUMAN problem, and I think to me, the reduction of a critical point of contention between humans to acts of base violence clouds that point, or worse, betrays a lack of understanding of that point, in the same way that war does.  The destruction of that which is considered, by virtue of it's place in the system, as "white" is just another form of tribalism that needs to be addressed, not disregarded as insignificant.

While I'm an advocate of us seeing the world the way it is, not the way we want it to be (or the way we need it to be to make our case), in a perfect world this would be the springboard to deeper conversation and deeper understanding, and to the extent that destruction chills that, it's something of importance.  The solving of racial injustice to me involves a necessary shift in power, and there's not an example in human history where that has happened peacefully without some reckoning on both sides of what the landscape looks like after.   

Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #129 on: June 26, 2020, 02:57:46 PM »
It isn’t about you thinking you aren’t part of the problem.  The fact is that there IS a problem.  And to be more concerned about statues than people makes me think you haven’t looked deep enough.  To say that the former takes away legitimacy of the latter shows me you DO have more to say on the matter, and makes me think your assessment of yourself in this context might not be complete.

I certainly have more to say about it but there's simply no way I'd discuss it in this forum/context. I'm well aware of most of the personalities around here and first off it'd be misconstrued somehow......like this conversation.......and secondly I honestly don't think it'd do one bit of good to talk about it any further than has been talked about.

No Gary, if I may call you that, your conversation isn't misconstrued.  It seems to be simply evolving.  You tend to post things emotionally (not a bad thing as I do the same), and end up saying...well Sorry, that isn't quite what I meant.  I as well tend to have to adjust my position, or at least express myself better, in follow up posts.
Yes, you did follow up on the topic, and likely will continue to do so.....but the positions did not change much.  You said that the Statue issues have affected the way you feel about the racism and social injustice movement. That you would not allow yourself to segregate those two issues shows me that you are not as "not part of the problem" as you hope to think.  That is my opinion of course, and I mean it not as to shame, but as an invitation to look at it from a different perspective.  The statues are being torn down by individuals, and the looting is being done by individuals, in either an effort to shout out their frustrations....or they are just plain opportunistic dicks.  They are not the same as the very real and important racial and social injustice movement.  To discount the latter because of the actions of a few Dicks, to me at least, shows me that you are a part of the problem to some degree.  That is not an indictment or a personal attack....I am part of the problem too.
I am likely very much like you in the way we live our lives....but I also know there are MANY ways I can help and make myself LESS a part of the problem.  I don't take it as a scarlet letter by acknowledging I am...albeit a small part...a part of the problem nonetheless.

I heard a great statement today....."we are ALL facing a great storm, we are just in different boats."

To say we are not a part of the problem, and discounting the movement due to a few bad actors, is like saying that you in your big safe boat aren't part of the problem, when you see large swaths of people in small rickety dingys, as they only have cause the marina wont sell them big safe boats.....or that they get attacked my the marina police.  Cant you help in some way if they are in harms way?  Then saying well, I saw a few of them defacing some buoys so their plight is lost on me.

Yes the analogy isn't perfect....but those that say "not my problem", ignore the problem, and those that say "I'm not part of the problem"....kind of can be part of the problem.

Now please do not take this as an attack....just a conversation that might raise some self reflection.  That is a great way to help....continued self reflection and conversation.  That is one very big way we can ALL help.

I've already acknowledge that:

The fact is that there IS a problem.

Never suggested there wasn't. I'm not

more concerned about statues than people

Then why say the point of their movement is "lost" on you?  You literally are stating that tearing down statues has made you feel you don't see the point of their movement.\:

Tearing down statues...it harms the movement IMO. I know that when I see a group of people tearing down a statue...all I do is think the group are nothing but a bunch of vandals and ... are just babies. Their 'point' or movement is lost on me then.

You can think any way you want, its a free country....but you can see how statements like that can lead one to think that your self-assessment might have some blind-spots, yes?  I have them too...HUGE blind spots....we all do.

I am stating that as Kev pointed out.....in the context of this thread.......tearing down statues and renaming pancake syrup does nothing for the real cause. Actually, it does do something.....it distracts and minimizes the real issues. One thing I do agree with trump on is it's ridiculous for these cities to continue to allow it to happen....allow little 'zones' to be made etc etc.

It distracts and minimizes the real issues for those that let it.  Dont let the devil media you rail about tell you how to think.  It is actually quite easy to separate the two issues if you allow yourself to do it.  I try to think if the tables were turned and I was in their position, I would have a much easier time understanding why they are so angry.  Try it sometime.  tell your kids they cant run to catch the bus in certain neighborhoods, or wear hoodies, cause of what people will think.  Or how different the advice you give your kid when they first learn to drive and if they get pulled over.  Its different.

And:

and makes me think your assessment of yourself in this context might not be complete.

I'm completely lucid about my personal assessment. If there's anyone that needs an assessment it's you because despite your best efforts in posts saying 'these debates aren't personal'.....it's odd how your posts always come off as taking shots at folks?

I tend to think that people who describe themselves in such certain and binary ways, tend to have not been honest with themselves.  To say that you are not part of the problem does not take into account the other side of the equation...how your words and actions affect others.  We are so complex as human beings, that it is rarely we can say those things with any certainty.  Would you feel comfortable saying things like:
The entire backlash against 'things' of a different era and time is ridiculous. Tearing down statues, ending careers over black face......it harms the movement IMO. I know that when I see a group of people tearing down a statue or whining because a comedian did blackface 10 or 20 y ears ago all I do is think the group are nothing but a bunch of vandals and the person/people whining about the comedian/actors are just babies. Their 'point' or movement is lost on me then.
in front of a group of black people?  Do you think they might be hurt, and see your words as diminishing their struggle?  As tone deaf to their issues?  Do you think you would feel that those words would represent "not part of the problem"?

And I make plenty of posts that arent taking shots at people....but I acknowledge my failings and try to change....I have tried hard recently to be less confrontational in my posts.  I, like you, post emotionally first, then at times, I have to walk some things back, and re-evaluate.  Sometimes my posting style comes across as aggressive.  I own that.  But that shouldn't stop these discussions.  I don't take it personally, and I hope you don't either.  Maybe I helped, maybe I didn't.  But know that my discussion with you, was meant 100% in a way that I thought might be helpful....to the issues we face as a country right now, and how you and I fit in to it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 03:28:01 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #130 on: June 26, 2020, 03:18:44 PM »
Just an FYI, I have been in a LOT of conversations, conference calls, and zoom presentations at work and IRL.  I am with a company with a large diverse group of employees, and work directly with many black people.  Listening to their stories and perspectives has been enlightening, and saddening.
It is difficult to feel empathy for a movement when all you have are second hand stories, or agenda driven narratives.  Listening to people directly affected by this can have a profound effect....hence my recent posts on the subject.  I mean no disrespect, judgement, or shaming to anyone here.  I think everyone here are generally great people.....but these discussions are important, and some feathers can be ruffled....so we all need to show, and accept, grace.
Gary, I apologize if I hurt you in any way....but making you feel uncomfortable in this scenario is sometimes needed.  I accept the same in return.  Thank you.
Ericnumbers
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #131 on: June 26, 2020, 03:32:29 PM »
@eric........I appreciate your last two posts......it cleared a couple things up and gave me a couple things to think about and I want to respond to them. Just can’t right now.......I have my youngest 10th birthday party starting soon. Your posts didn’t hurt me in anyway......I’m admittedly in a defensive posture when reading P/R threads for some reason so I probably just read into them too much.    :tup
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #132 on: June 26, 2020, 03:38:17 PM »
 :tup
A poster with aggressive tendencies, posting to a person with defensive tendencies, about an emotional and explosive topic like racism?  What could go wrong?  :lol :lol :lol
Have a good night my friend, I’m getting sushi and Kirin and hitting the pool :)
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2020, 02:23:11 PM »
A poster with aggressive tendencies, posting to a person with defensive tendencies, about an emotional and explosive topic like racism?  What could go wrong?  :lol :lol :lol

 :lol   No kidding

No Gary, if I may call you that, your conversation isn't misconstrued.  It seems to be simply evolving.  You tend to post things emotionally (not a bad thing as I do the same), and end up saying...well Sorry, that isn't quite what I meant.  I as well tend to have to adjust my position, or at least express myself better, in follow up posts.
Yes, you did follow up on the topic, and likely will continue to do so.....but the positions did not change much.  You said that the Statue issues have affected the way you feel about the racism and social injustice movement. That you would not allow yourself to segregate those two issues shows me that you are not as "not part of the problem" as you hope to think.  That is my opinion of course, and I mean it not as to shame, but as an invitation to look at it from a different perspective.  The statues are being torn down by individuals, and the looting is being done by individuals, in either an effort to shout out their frustrations....or they are just plain opportunistic dicks.  They are not the same as the very real and important racial and social injustice movement.  To discount the latter because of the actions of a few Dicks, to me at least, shows me that you are a part of the problem to some degree.  That is not an indictment or a personal attack....I am part of the problem too.
I am likely very much like you in the way we live our lives....but I also know there are MANY ways I can help and make myself LESS a part of the problem.  I don't take it as a scarlet letter by acknowledging I am...albeit a small part...a part of the problem nonetheless.

Trying to think of a way to say this so that it captures what I truly mean. As I mentioned, I think the movement at hand to draw more attention to the mistreatment of black people by people in positions of authority is justifiable and needed. When I say that 'their movement is lost on me' the 'their' in that statement are the people actively tearing down those statues. As I've said.....I see it as counterproductive to the legit movement. And, judging from conversations I've had and read.....I don't believe I'm the only person turned off by the destruction and vandalism.

I find the peaceful protests and gatherings insightful and watch many of the videos that come from those moments. But if 'you' are throwing a heavy duty strap around the neck of men who founded the very country that gives you the freedom to protest.....then that's where you lose me. Not 'you' as in the peaceful movement but the specific 'you' who are perpetrating vandalism and destruction. And a lot of the people getting on social media and the news trying to spread this movement are the same people who are destroying, looting and vandalizing. I just don't want to listen to or hear what those specific people have to say because it's hypocritical IMO.


I heard a great statement today....."we are ALL facing a great storm, we are just in different boats."

Love the quote....not sure about the analogy though  :lol   I would give the statues more value than the buoys simply because good or bad.....the statues represent our history and can still be teaching moments. Vote to remove or augment them.....add complimenting statues as 'disclaimers' as to what type of men/women they were.....but trying to erase them from history seems short sighted and dangerous to me.

I tend to think that people who describe themselves in such certain and binary ways, tend to have not been honest with themselves.  To say that you are not part of the problem does not take into account the other side of the equation...how your words and actions affect others.  We are so complex as human beings, that it is rarely we can say those things with any certainty. 

But that's what I've taken into account when I state that I really don't think that 'I' am part of the problem......I'm aware of my words and actions.....and I have to say that they have been more of a part of the solution than the problem. I won't list a resume but between volunteer work, personal relationships and how we're raising our children I'm confident that what I/we've done as a family specifically over the last 15 years has had a greater positive influence than negative. I'm not perfect by any means, but I can't see any of the things I've said or done over as I said my last 15-20 years of life contributing to the suppression of black people.


Would you feel comfortable saying things like:
The entire backlash against 'things' of a different era and time is ridiculous. Tearing down statues, ending careers over black face......it harms the movement IMO. I know that when I see a group of people tearing down a statue or whining because a comedian did blackface 10 or 20 y ears ago all I do is think the group are nothing but a bunch of vandals and the person/people whining about the comedian/actors are just babies. Their 'point' or movement is lost on me then.
in front of a group of black people?  Do you think they might be hurt, and see your words as diminishing their struggle?  As tone deaf to their issues?  Do you think you would feel that those words would represent "not part of the problem"?

But I have. Our Sunday Night life group is a mixed bag of ethnicity's and I've said these things and discussed the matters at hand with all of my close friends (not all white). All of them understand the anger behind the actions of the people destroying and vandalizing but none of them condone it and in fact agree that it only distracts from the real issues. I could have found a better way to say this but I still believe in the sentiment behind it.


And I make plenty of posts that arent taking shots at people....but I acknowledge my failings and try to change....I have tried hard recently to be less confrontational in my posts.  I, like you, post emotionally first, then at times, I have to walk some things back, and re-evaluate.  Sometimes my posting style comes across as aggressive.  I own that.  But that shouldn't stop these discussions.  I don't take it personally, and I hope you don't either.  Maybe I helped, maybe I didn't.  But know that my discussion with you, was meant 100% in a way that I thought might be helpful....to the issues we face as a country right now, and how you and I fit in to it.

I'll admit although it's quite apparent to the regulars around here that I'm probably the King of emotionally posting.....then find myself doing just what you highlighted.....walking some things back, attempting to explain them better and re-evaluating 'how' I've stated the post. I disagree with A LOT of what's said in the P/R side of DTF......this sub forum is filled with mostly posters who I differ greatly in principle. I'm not as witty and educated as you, Bill, EB, Adami, Hef and the other regular posters here so like I said....I'm normally in a defensive posture anyways and probably read the posts as an 'attack' when that's most likely not the intention. I will say that despite not sharing a lot of the stances with a lot of 'you' guys here.....I do believe reading the conversations and the other viewpoints on these various topics through the years has helped me grow as a person and I'm appreciative for that  :tup
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2020, 09:18:31 PM »
With all my heart I respect and understand the peaceful protests.

What baffles me, is how they're making no distinction in condemning the violence of those that are causing the movement to get a bad name. There can be a radical group and a peaceful group. Once you separate the two, BLM can be seen as a Peaceful Movement.  And whatever the radical group is called can be treated as one. The innocent peaceful ones not wanting harm then won't have to worry about Police Violence, because then there'd be a good distinction between the two, and an easier case to have for Police Violence on peaceful protests.



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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #135 on: June 28, 2020, 01:31:56 PM »
They don't care about any distinction, as they are not particularly interested in whether or not they are considered a "Peaceful Movement" anyway.

Now color and hue is the latest victim:

Quote
“The L’Oreal Group has decided to remove the words white/whitening, fair/fairness, light/lightening from all its skin evening products,” the French cosmetics giant said in statement.

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Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2020, 01:48:44 PM »
I have to admit that I chucked when I saw the Kristen Bell news the other day, but she is being smart and being proactive, rather than the mob randomly deciding next Thursday that she is racist for voice acting a mixed character on an animated show and then her having to react and apologize, lose the voice acting job anyway, and be stuck with the racist tag going forward.  Best to apologize for anything you might have done ever and pray that the mob arbitrarily decides to go after someone else.

Offline Adami

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2020, 02:43:34 PM »
White people quitting roles, especially very famous ones is fine. It’s even respectful.

The Simpsons saying no more white actors voicing non white (or yellow) characters is also fine. No one loses their jobs, more people hired, and we move away from that stuff. Cool.

Tv episodes being pulled for having blackface (regardless of context) is where I draw the line. I can’t support censorship. They pulled a Golden Girls episode dealing with race and intermarriage in a pretty progressive way for the late 80s because two of the girls have a mud mask on as a joke ABOUT black face. Good lord. They weren’t wearing the mud masks to be black. Just to relax. Hopefully they’re just temporary pullings.
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Offline Northern Lion

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #138 on: June 28, 2020, 02:49:13 PM »
White people quitting roles, especially very famous ones is fine. It’s even respectful.

The Simpsons saying no more white actors voicing non white (or yellow) characters is also fine. No one loses their jobs, more people hired, and we move away from that stuff. Cool.

Tv episodes being pulled for having blackface (regardless of context) is where I draw the line. I can’t support censorship. They pulled a Golden Girls episode dealing with race and intermarriage in a pretty progressive way for the late 80s because two of the girls have a mud mask on as a joke ABOUT black face. Good lord. They weren’t wearing the mud masks to be black. Just to relax. Hopefully they’re just temporary pullings.

I agree.  There is a line between our society getting better and more respectful, and censorship.  I HATE censorship.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #139 on: June 28, 2020, 02:59:21 PM »
I have to admit that I chucked when I saw the Kristen Bell news the other day, but she is being smart and being proactive, rather than the mob randomly deciding next Thursday that she is racist for voice acting a mixed character on an animated show and then her having to react and apologize, lose the voice acting job anyway, and be stuck with the racist tag going forward.  Best to apologize for anything you might have done ever and pray that the mob arbitrarily decides to go after someone else.

Is 'the mob' actually calling for this? I don't see anyone calling for this at all. Same with the removed blackface episodes, no one actually gives a fuck about any of this, all of these companies are just deciding this inane bullshit is how to address racism instead of any of the things protestors are actually calling for.
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