Author Topic: You're cancelled!  (Read 15984 times)

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Offline KevShmev

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You're cancelled!
« on: June 10, 2020, 03:47:59 PM »
So yeah, the cancel culture is out of control this week, and as usual they are selective in their outrage.

https://www.etonline.com/megyn-kelly-whoopi-goldberg-react-to-hbo-max-temporarily-pulling-gone-with-the-wind-from-streaming

I am waiting now for Rocky IV to get cancelled because a black man was killed an angry white Russian. :P :P

Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2020, 03:54:09 PM »
Ages ago I ripped the entire Looney Tunes DVD set. At the beginning of each disc Whoopie Goldberg makes an announcement about some problematic content and how things were different at the time. Basically, exactly what she said on The View. It was a tasteful way to handle the thing without butchering up some classic cartoons. This is exactly what HBO is looking to do with GWtW. They've pulled it until somebody makes the preceding introduction that the portrayal of slaves is kind of bullshit, but it's still a good movie worth watching. It'll be back up on their site afterward. I see no problem at all here, other than what the media wants to create.

As for Cops and LivePD, Cops sucks anyways. LivePD should be left on the air for educational value. Let people with cable see how cops behave out in the wild.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2020, 04:34:12 PM »
gone with the wind is going back on the service with a new intro, it’s fine.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2020, 06:01:15 PM »
It's not really about any one event, though; it's about the culture that exists now. 


Offline XJDenton

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2020, 06:31:39 PM »
Is a private company making a decision as to what to host on its servers what classes as cancel culture nowadays?
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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2020, 06:35:28 PM »
It's not really about any one event, though; it's about the culture that exists now.

I'm amazed that we need an intro to let people know things weren't the same then.

We should all be able to figure that out.
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 06:36:46 PM »
There was no need to cancel COPS...But then again, Who still watches Cops?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 07:27:10 PM »
Is a private company making a decision as to what to host on its servers what classes as cancel culture nowadays?

If only it were that simple.  But it's not.  And I think you know that.

It's not really about any one event, though; it's about the culture that exists now.

I'm amazed that we need an intro to let people know things weren't the same then.

We should all be able to figure that out.

You would think so, but big companies are now so terrified of offending anyone and getting pulverized on Twitter that they are submitting to the tiny little mob that bitches about any and everything nowadays.

Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 07:29:41 PM »
I'll be honest, I think the entire idea of 'cancel culture' barely exists outside of twitter and people dramatically overstate its power.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 07:34:57 PM »
I'll be honest, I think the entire idea of 'cancel culture' barely exists outside of twitter and people dramatically overstate its power.

Don't be so sure.

Megyn Kelly and Jimmy Fallon both worked/work for NBC.

Kelly merely talked about how blackface was more acceptable back in the day.  The outrage was quick and fierce.  She was axed pretty quickly.

Fallon actually did blackface 20 years ago, and after a quick apology and no outrage, it has barely been talked about since.

And I like Fallon, but had the outrage been as fierce as it was when Kelly said it, he would have had a tough time surviving it.  And sure, Kelly was a flop at NBC and they were probably looking for any excuse to axe her, but the mob flipping out over her comment was the death knell. 

So yeah, the small percentage of those who shout from the rooftops about this stuff do have power.  They scare the hell out of business owners, who then make decisions as a result.  They have power.

Offline Adami

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 07:39:59 PM »

So yeah, the small percentage of those who shout from the rooftops about this stuff do have power.  They scare the hell out of business owners, who then make decisions as a result.  They have power.

Yes. That's generally how things have been working forever now. It's just changed focus and people notice. Try getting an openly gay character on TV back in the 60's. Hell, the original Star Trek had to use sci fi as an allegory because they were not allowed to discuss racism, sexism, or feminism at all.

So again, the idea of "this isn't allowed because a loud but small amount of people demand it" has been around forever. Long before Twitter. It's just that right now it's much more obvious to the public and the focus has changed.
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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2020, 07:43:48 PM »
Yeah, but as you note, there were plenty of other things stacked against Megyn Kelly. It was pretty bizarre that she was at NBC at first place, wasn't it? What was the likelihood that she wasn't going to get canned anyway?

I think if you graph the number of people that have some kind of 'cancel' by loons on twitter, you're going to find most of them experience almost no change whatsoever in their career, a small percentage have a bit of a shitstorm for a few weeks and then go on as usual, and a very small minority get actually 'canceled,' generally because there's a lot of other stuff going on with them.

I'm not saying these things never have any effect or that businesses don't make snap decisions just because they don't want to deal with the shit (see the James Gunn thing), but overall I think the people shouting 'Cancel culture!' 'PC run amok!' falsely imagine the whole thing to have much more relevance in the real world than it actually does, to a similar level of delusion as the whackadoos calling for this stuff anytime someone says something they dislike in the first place.

Damn that was a long-ass sentence.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2020, 07:57:16 PM »
So yeah, the small percentage of those who shout from the rooftops about this stuff do have power.  They scare the hell out of business owners, who then make decisions as a result.  They have power.
I think this has always been the case. How many actors, writers, and directors were blacklisted for their political beliefs? Mohammad Alie? Hanoi Jane? Jimmy the Greek? None of these people were actually punished because their employers cared about what they thought. They were punished because it was the sensible business option.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2020, 08:04:02 PM »
Is it sensible to pull an iconic movie to add a historical context?  Don't we all know slavery was bad?

Il be honest. When I watch movies with slavery my mind goes to, "Thankfully that was abolished."
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2020, 09:10:42 PM »
Is it sensible to pull an iconic movie to add a historical context?  Don't we all know slavery was bad?

Il be honest. When I watch movies with slavery my mind goes to, "Thankfully that was abolished."

First, I would not bet the farm that everyone thinks slavery was bad.  Second, context is needed to make clear that the depiction of slavery in the movie is waaaaay off, and I would also not bet the farm that there aren’t people out there that think that depiction is accurate.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2020, 09:19:05 PM »
Then those people are wrong.  Good people know that. So we have to pay for people who's values are in the wrong. 

Sorry but taking a movie out of rotation and adding historical content isn't changing their mind.

That's not the way to change one's perspective. 
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2020, 09:25:44 PM »
Then those people are wrong.  Good people know that. So we have to pay for people who's values are in the wrong. 

Sorry but taking a movie out of rotation and adding historical content isn't changing their mind.

That's not the way to change one's perspective.

First question.....what exactly are we paying?  If you are a good person and know racism is bad, and t it’s depiction in the movie is way off, then fast forward just like you do with a commercial or preview.

Second, it isn’t always about changing minds.  It can also be about not staying silent, and also about staying aware of the issue.

Is it really a problem for you?  I’m not seeing the big deal.  JMO
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2020, 09:28:23 PM »
I can't believe this has to be pointed out, but...

It's a movie, not a documentary. 

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2020, 09:32:41 PM »
Right.  White people have to be labeled for a movie 80 years ago. I am not aligned with what white people believed 80 years ago yet we now have to have an understanding that you have to pull that movie now?

I am 100% behind wiping out racism.   Canceling movies 80 years ago will do nothing to help that cause.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2020, 09:37:44 PM »
So yeah, the small percentage of those who shout from the rooftops about this stuff do have power.  They scare the hell out of business owners, who then make decisions as a result.  They have power.
I think this has always been the case. How many actors, writers, and directors were blacklisted for their political beliefs? Mohammad Alie? Hanoi Jane? Jimmy the Greek? None of these people were actually punished because their employers cared about what they thought. They were punished because it was the sensible business option.

True, but in today's culture, the cancel culture mob on Twitter and elsewhere can cause such a ruckus that a business reaches a point where it is deemed necessary to cut ties with an employee to avoid any or any more backlash. 

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2020, 09:38:44 PM »
Canceling a movie and adding dialogue does not move the needle to real compromise.

We need real discussion and compromise to make it better for all of our Black brethren. 

Bed time for this old fart. Night everyone. 
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

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Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2020, 09:39:28 PM »
Nobody's cancelling the damn move. Christ.

I've got two simple questions about this. Does pulling the movie long enough to add an introduction explaining the sugar-coated depiction of slavery isn't accurate harm anybody? Will adding that explanation change or educate any minds? Myself, I see no harm in the movie being temporarily unavailable on one streaming platform, and I think that it might educate a handful of people. I'm not seeing anything but manufactured outrage.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2020, 09:42:16 PM »
So yeah, the small percentage of those who shout from the rooftops about this stuff do have power.  They scare the hell out of business owners, who then make decisions as a result.  They have power.
I think this has always been the case. How many actors, writers, and directors were blacklisted for their political beliefs? Mohammad Alie? Hanoi Jane? Jimmy the Greek? None of these people were actually punished because their employers cared about what they thought. They were punished because it was the sensible business option.

True, but in today's culture, the cancel culture mob on Twitter and elsewhere can cause such a ruckus that a business reaches a point where it is deemed necessary to cut ties with an employee to avoid any or any more backlash.
Yep, and Dalton Trumbo could tell you all about how it feels. Same with Jimmy the Greek. Charlie Chaplin had to leave the country to work. Again, none of this is new, save for the "cancel culture" label, almost certainly invented by some conservative commentator seeking to rile people up.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2020, 09:44:13 PM »
I agree with Bart.  No real harm here, and it might actually influence a few people.  More importantly it might make a difference  -maybe not in changing a ton of racists minds, but perhaps to show support and awareness to those affected by the racism.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2020, 10:24:17 PM »
In this instance, I am not to bent out of shape about it. But are we going to subject every movie to some arbiter of "cultural awareness" for them to inform the viewers of the "appropriate historical context" of the film?
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 02:11:17 AM »
In this instance, I am not to bent out of shape about it. But are we going to subject every movie to some arbiter of "cultural awareness" for them to inform the viewers of the "appropriate historical context" of the film?

Yeah, it feels like a weird thing to do.

It's like if, among the countless thoughtful actions one could take in light of women's cry for equality and the end of sexual abuse (see the avalanche effect derived from the Weinstein case), we'd just concentrate on banning every '70s and '80s teen movie where a girl gets slapped on the ass, that will solve everything.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 05:31:04 AM »
Nobody's cancelling the damn move. Christ.

I've got two simple questions about this. Does pulling the movie long enough to add an introduction explaining the sugar-coated depiction of slavery isn't accurate harm anybody? Will adding that explanation change or educate any minds? Myself, I see no harm in the movie being temporarily unavailable on one streaming platform, and I think that it might educate a handful of people. I'm not seeing anything but manufactured outrage.

Hey, it's not that it's affecting me but I just look at it as a bandaid on a huge wound.  This will not change anyone's mind who already is a racist or enlighten anyone to racism contrary to what Eric feels.

Real change is police reform in their policy and procedures towards the black community.

That's what I want to see, not a bandaid that will do nothing. 
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 07:01:12 AM »
Nobody's cancelling the damn move. Christ.

I've got two simple questions about this. Does pulling the movie long enough to add an introduction explaining the sugar-coated depiction of slavery isn't accurate harm anybody? Will adding that explanation change or educate any minds? Myself, I see no harm in the movie being temporarily unavailable on one streaming platform, and I think that it might educate a handful of people. I'm not seeing anything but manufactured outrage.

Hey, it's not that it's affecting me but I just look at it as a bandaid on a huge wound.  This will not change anyone's mind who already is a racist or enlighten anyone to racism contrary to what Eric feels.

Real change is police reform in their policy and procedures towards the black community.

That's what I want to see, not a bandaid that will do nothing.

You are so sure that it wont do ANYTHING?  Lets try and remember that racism toward the Black community is more than just police related.  So "Real Change" is not just about police reform.  A "band-aid" might have some effect...even if it doesn't solve the entire problem.  In fact, I would suggest it already has.  It has created awareness and discussion, as well as some good will to the black community that companies and people are willing to do what they can to say something about, or against, racism.
Its just a different perspective to try and look at things from.  I have been on conf calls, and in discussion with many Black team mates at work.  The perspectives and stories I have heard make me want to cry.  To see a company doing something that shouldn't mean two shits to a white guy, but means a LOT to an oppressed or marginalized community....and then to poo poo it seems tone deaf.  I am not calling anyone anything here....but now is certainly a time when we can at least try and put ourselves in others shoes just for a bit.
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Offline Nekov

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 07:22:22 AM »
This cancel culture is a little bit stupid when it comes to old movies, books or shows. Culture has changed, mostly for the better. We need to understand that things were different back in the day and that we as a society have evolved. We are not perfect, and neither were the people before us. There are tons of things that happen nowadays that will probably be seen as horrible in the future. Should we get cancelled in the future because of things that the society we grew up deemed acceptable but societies in the future might not?
We should not accept these things from now on. Current artists that have done some of these things need to have the opportunity to see what was wrong with them and issue an apology, just like Jimmy Fallon did. But erasing things from the past just because they do not conform to our current views is not only stupid but dangerous. We need to be able to learn from the mistakes we've done. We need to be able to see what steps were taken to correct those issues so that we can change other things that are wrong.
Having an introduction in old movies and cartoons that explains how things were different back at the time, or how something might have been wrongly portrayed will do good. It may be a band-aid in the long run, but it is a good thing that it happens. It is not going to fix the deep rooted problems in society, but it will serve as a reminder that we have come a long way and that we need to continue to strive for change.
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 07:28:50 AM »
Eric, I get what you are saying but I grew up in a town Lawrence Mass where I was the minority.  My friends were Black, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Ecuadorian.  and growing up with them or as a grown up, I've herd them complain about older movies. I did here how police and real life issues was a problem.


Edit:  I also think the small gesture isn't what the black community wants.  Real change is what matters right now.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 07:38:55 AM by kingshmegland »
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline kaos2900

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2020, 07:59:17 AM »
Ignoring/cancelling history is a terrible idea. We need to accept that things in the past can't be changed but it's vital that learn from those past mistakes. People need to take the time to continue to educate themselves. Gone With the Wind is a portrayal of a specific time in US history. I think using it as a teaching tool and including some historical information before or after the film isn't a bad idea.

Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2020, 08:04:46 AM »
Ignoring/cancelling history is a terrible idea. We need to accept that things in the past can't be changed but it's vital that learn from those past mistakes. People need to take the time to continue to educate themselves. Gone With the Wind is a portrayal of a specific time in US history. I think using it as a teaching tool and including some historical information before or after the film isn't a bad idea.
And an inaccurate one, at that. That's what makes it prime to be a teaching tool.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2020, 08:06:57 AM »
Eric, I get what you are saying but I grew up in a town Lawrence Mass where I was the minority.  My friends were Black, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Ecuadorian.  and growing up with them or as a grown up, I've herd them complain about older movies. I did here how police and real life issues was a problem.


Edit:  I also think the small gesture isn't what the black community wants.  Real change is what matters right now.

Most people and companies can’t do “real change” on their own.  All they/we can do is small gestures.  Many small gestures can become large movements and change.  Not sure why you want to stop small gestures just because it isn’t the full solution you want.  That just confuses me.

And it isn’t “canceling” anything. It is basically a PSA before a movie on one platform.
And I don’t think that the Black Community shares your view.  I don’t think they would poo poo this gesture on the basis that it isn’t the full solution.  JMO
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Offline kingshmegland

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2020, 08:10:59 AM »
I'm not saying that.  I do think that the small gestures have added up to a hill of beans.  Real change will not come from that.
“I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart

So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam

Offline El Barto

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Re: You're cancelled!
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2020, 08:12:38 AM »
The reaction to GWtW and this so-called "cancel culture" reeks of mission creep. I'm opposed to deleting the confederacy from history. It bums me out to think of some excellent movies that would never have been made in today's climate. I'm particularly bothered by the effect all of this has on context, which is to essentially disregard it. What they're doing with GWtW is exactly what they should be doing, though. The people who are so put out by this alleged "cancel culture" should be celebrating this rather than getting in a twist over it. It seems they've gotten so worked up that even a victory offends them. Or, more likely, what they've really wanted all along was for the libs to just shut up and eat their pine cone.
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