Author Topic: Racism and Privilege  (Read 5743 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #140 on: October 13, 2020, 10:30:17 AM »
A congresswoman from my state had a Town Hall over zoom yesterday. It went well.



And they allowed comments, not expecting trolls, on the group chat...  :facepalm:

God forbid a congressional candidate wants to give the people of her district a chance to interact with her and ask questions. I can't even believe that post, man. If comments weren't allowed, you'd have people banging the "she's too afraid of the tough questions the public might ask" drum. This is 100% on the pieces of shit in those posts, the people who are going to be enthusiastically voting for a shit turd in November, and your immediate go-to is to somehow pin it on the congressional candidate? Fuck's sake.

I'm generally with you on this, and I'm not in any way "pinning" this on her but I deleted a post (and for that very reason, that I didn't want to imply that I was blaming her) that pointed out how she immediately turned from victim to political operative, making this about and attributable to Trump.   These people are either ideological zealots, pranksters, political shit-stirrers, or false flag operatives, and in all of those cases, the extreme end of the spectrum.  But only one of those, maybe two, might reasonably be assumable as "Trump voters".

The narrative here is getting very singular and very insular:  some of the people here can't even use his name, the hate is so palpable.  That's fine, your opinion is your opinion, but let's not lose sight of the fact that some people - myself included - believe that the problems facing this country do not go away or even get better simply because Trump is gone.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 42213
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #141 on: October 13, 2020, 10:35:52 AM »
I think you are flat wrong about such a low percentage being Trump voters.  I get that you aren't on social media, but that's how a lot of them are.  They don't always use language QUITE that strong, but while I know you hate the term "deplorable", the fact is that a sizable percentage of his followers are exactly this right here.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #142 on: October 13, 2020, 12:48:41 PM »
I think you are flat wrong about such a low percentage being Trump voters.  I get that you aren't on social media, but that's how a lot of them are.  They don't always use language QUITE that strong, but while I know you hate the term "deplorable", the fact is that a sizable percentage of his followers are exactly this right here.

Well, to me even if I was on social media, I don't take that for gospel.  That's one of the big distortions of social media (and, perversely, why it's so effective as a bully pulpit) that it exaggerates the weight of the positions being taken (including, ironically, yours, that Trump supporters are largely deplorable racists). 

I don't know many that do support Trump, but those that do?  NONE of them are that, and not even close.  Not even closeted.  We can debate what "sizeable" means here, and I really don't want to get into the "well, even one is too many" meta debate, but it seems far more an argument of convenience than of fact.   

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 42213
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2020, 11:31:37 AM »
It's sizeable.  It's a lot.  Not saying it's the majority, but it's a lot.  I'm glad that you don't know any assholes that support Trump. But that doesn't mean that there aren't a hell of a lot of assholes out there who support Trump.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 19125
  • Gender: Male
  • First Follower
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #144 on: October 21, 2020, 06:26:22 PM »
Wasn't sure to throw this here or in the political funny thread, but SF, being SF, passed a new law leveling increased illegality at people making false 911 calls and claims against black people, an all too common recent occurrence. The act is called the Caution Against Racially Exploitative Non-Emergencies Act....


The CAREN Act.

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 45919
  • Gender: Male
  • Head Judge of the Peanut Gallery
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #145 on: October 21, 2020, 06:35:18 PM »
 :lol


Naturally.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Back for the Attack
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 42213
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #146 on: October 22, 2020, 09:12:53 AM »
Wasn't sure to throw this here or in the political funny thread, but SF, being SF, passed a new law leveling increased illegality at people making false 911 calls and claims against black people, an all too common recent occurrence. The act is called the Caution Against Racially Exploitative Non-Emergencies Act....


The CAREN Act.
:clap:
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 10876
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #147 on: October 22, 2020, 10:15:03 AM »
I wonder, if most the arguments were just deciding the right words just to spell Karen (or Caren).


But, is it just Black People, or is it false claims against all people regardless of Race/Gender/Creed/Relgion?

 
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline kaos2900

  • Posts: 2808
  • Gender: Male
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #148 on: October 22, 2020, 10:21:54 AM »
I wonder, if most the arguments were just deciding the right words just to spell Karen (or Caren).


But, is it just Black People, or is it false claims against all people regardless of Race/Gender/Creed/Relgion?

One would hope so. Are you still able to call 911 if someone is taking a dump on the sidewalk in SF?

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 10876
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #149 on: October 22, 2020, 10:44:18 AM »
I wonder, if most the arguments were just deciding the right words just to spell Karen (or Caren).


But, is it just Black People, or is it false claims against all people regardless of Race/Gender/Creed/Relgion?

One would hope so. Are you still able to call 911 if someone is taking a dump on the sidewalk in SF?

I read this article about it...

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/10/21/caren-act-san-francisco-supervisors-approve-ban-racist-911-calls/

What I don't understand is, Does San Francisco have a False 911 call law in place? Would that kind of law prevent any of this shit from happening, as a person just being black doesn't constitute an emergency? So, if they have a False 911 law, why the need for this Law? Is it because "Victims of such calls will also be allowed to sue the caller"? Can't anybody sue anybody anyways for False Accusations based on Race, Gender, Creed, Religion?
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 45919
  • Gender: Male
  • Head Judge of the Peanut Gallery
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24773
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #151 on: October 25, 2020, 08:54:38 PM »
Interesting article about the Trump administration's attempt, and subsequent failure to create a narrative about the Hunter Biden thing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/business/media/hunter-biden-wall-street-journal-trump.html

Cliffs: Three high-level guy's put together a very slick dossier to hand over to the WSJ hoping they'd blow the Hunter Biden narrative wide open. Giuliani involves himself and casts a ton of doubt over the legitimacy of it all. The WSJ has a reputation to maintain and doesn't want to run a dodgy story. Trump shoots his mouth off about how the Journal is fixing to torpedo Hunter and Joe, further spooking the WSJ. This forces them to resort to the NY Post and Breitbart to sell their story, thus making it seem even less credible than it already was.

So basically, Trump is incompetent, Rudy is worse, and the WSJ still has some integrity.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #152 on: October 26, 2020, 11:25:40 AM »
Wow, frustrating.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/residents-of-wisconsin-town-near-kenosha-in-uproar-over-teacher-s-racism-lesson/ar-BB1alzXq?li=BBnbcA1


WTF is wrong with people?

I read that article, and while I would not have protested that (my kid went through something similar in her rather liberal high school curriculum) I would point out that it's not an absolute given that all agree on the scope and extent of some of those concepts that seem to be presented as a fait accompli.    For example, "systemic racism"; we've talked about it here, and at a minimum there's a definitional discussion to be had.  You can't say "it's neutral" and then take for granted one side of a deep and enduring discussion.   Later, there was a reference to "a more frank conversation about race, bias and privilege"; the devil is in the details.  Does the conversation ASSUME the parameters of privilege?  We're all adults here, and we've had some spirited conversations, particularly on that last point; do we expect a "neutral" delivery to perfectly - or even imperfectly - walk that line between the reasonable and rational differences?

And that's not to mention that with the stigma of "racist!" hanging in the wings, some of that discussion is almost undoubtedly chilled.  I know I had to have more than one conversation with my daughter - who is by almost every measure, a "Democrat" in policy if not in practice - who was herself reluctant to push back in a classroom setting for fear of being misunderstood as a "racist".   

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 45919
  • Gender: Male
  • Head Judge of the Peanut Gallery
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #153 on: October 26, 2020, 06:40:12 PM »
Wow, frustrating.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/residents-of-wisconsin-town-near-kenosha-in-uproar-over-teacher-s-racism-lesson/ar-BB1alzXq?li=BBnbcA1


WTF is wrong with people?

I read that article, and while I would not have protested that (my kid went through something similar in her rather liberal high school curriculum) I would point out that it's not an absolute given that all agree on the scope and extent of some of those concepts that seem to be presented as a fait accompli.    For example, "systemic racism"; we've talked about it here, and at a minimum there's a definitional discussion to be had.  You can't say "it's neutral" and then take for granted one side of a deep and enduring discussion.   Later, there was a reference to "a more frank conversation about race, bias and privilege"; the devil is in the details.  Does the conversation ASSUME the parameters of privilege?  We're all adults here, and we've had some spirited conversations, particularly on that last point; do we expect a "neutral" delivery to perfectly - or even imperfectly - walk that line between the reasonable and rational differences?

I understand that. My wife, who is a wicked Republican is always super suspicious of teachers covering things like this. She assumes they will spin it democratically.

But these teachers are in a tough spot. They have children looking at them for information and guidance. If a kid asks a teacher what Black Lives Matter means, what is the teacher supposed to do? Do their best to explain it objectively, which to some people, may not be objective at all.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9793
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #154 on: October 26, 2020, 08:18:29 PM »
Right wing pundits will point to several examples of activist teachers promoting BLM and other left wing ideologies in their classrooms and stifling any discussion or dissent. I do not believe this is an example of that.

With virtual learning, teachers are in the public eye like never before, and they really, really do not want to get on the wrong side of the mob. It would just take one comment a parent sees in their kid's Zoom class meeting to prompt a post on TweetBook about how Teacher So-and-So is a racist, and then that teacher is suddenly sweating their job.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 45919
  • Gender: Male
  • Head Judge of the Peanut Gallery
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #155 on: October 26, 2020, 08:23:53 PM »
The thing is, I think some curriculums are going to change a bit to include more Black or Native American viewpoints.


I really don't understand why people would be afraid of that.

"Oh they're trying to rewrite our history books!"
But I'm thinking that they're just filling in the blanks.


would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9793
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #156 on: October 26, 2020, 08:49:29 PM »
Some are filling in the blanks, some are rewriting history. Many people do not want to see the difference.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5093
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #157 on: October 26, 2020, 08:57:22 PM »
It probably could do with being rewritten.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9793
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #158 on: October 26, 2020, 09:09:13 PM »
Then let it be done with facts, and not an agenda. If we are to assume the current history needs to be rewritten because it was originally done with an agenda, let's learn from that and not repeat those mistakes.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5093
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #159 on: October 26, 2020, 09:18:52 PM »
To some, truth IS an agenda.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9793
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #160 on: October 26, 2020, 09:33:19 PM »
"We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?"

-Pontius Pilate, Jesus Christ Superstar

Maybe a non-sequitur, just popped in my head.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 45919
  • Gender: Male
  • Head Judge of the Peanut Gallery
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2020, 06:02:57 AM »
To some, truth IS an agenda.

Fuck them.
Truth should be an agenda. It should be important.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2020, 01:54:31 PM »
To some, truth IS an agenda.

That's a bumper sticker, though.  For many - not all, not most, but many - of the people that I see that would be the first to tell you that, aren't really dealing in A truth, they're dealing in THEIR truth.   There is no such thing - objectively, replicably - as "MY truth".    That's simply a euphemism for "my opinion". 

"Truth" isn't "the other side of the coin".  "Truth" is that which is not up for discussion, which is objectively proven regardless of any other influencing factors.   2+2=4.  if you do that with a number line, or a bunch of rocks, or the ENIAC supercomputer "two items" of something plus "two items" of something give you "four items".  There's no Democratic platform on 2+2, there's no "by the standard of 'no harm to anyone'" aspect to 2+2, there's no "gender specific" angle to 2+2, there's no "native people's" or "people of color" 2+2.  Pure water is comprised of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. John Kennedy was President in 1962.   

Online Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 22929
  • Gender: Male
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #163 on: October 27, 2020, 02:00:27 PM »


Fun fact of the day - Pure water exists nowhere on Earth. That's including in the cleanest and most controlled laboratories in the world. 

Offline XeRocks81

  • Posts: 829
  • Gender: Male
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #164 on: October 27, 2020, 02:05:07 PM »
To some, truth IS an agenda.

That's a bumper sticker, though.  For many - not all, not most, but many - of the people that I see that would be the first to tell you that, aren't really dealing in A truth, they're dealing in THEIR truth.   There is no such thing - objectively, replicably - as "MY truth".    That's simply a euphemism for "my opinion". 

"Truth" isn't "the other side of the coin".  "Truth" is that which is not up for discussion, which is objectively proven regardless of any other influencing factors.   2+2=4.  if you do that with a number line, or a bunch of rocks, or the ENIAC supercomputer "two items" of something plus "two items" of something give you "four items".  There's no Democratic platform on 2+2, there's no "by the standard of 'no harm to anyone'" aspect to 2+2, there's no "gender specific" angle to 2+2, there's no "native people's" or "people of color" 2+2.  Pure water is comprised of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. John Kennedy was President in 1962.

there is no political platform could be made using this standard.   

Offline Jaffa

  • Just Jaffa
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4767
  • Gender: Male
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #165 on: October 27, 2020, 02:18:11 PM »
Stadler, I don't disagree with any of that, but I do want to bring something for context. 

While your 2+2=4 example is specifically designed to rule out "by the standard of 'no harm to anyone'" qualifiers, it's worth noting that it is possible to examine truth with qualifiers attached.  It's possible to examine a claim within a certain framework, and it's possible to examine the implications of a claim without necessarily asserting the truth of that claim.  These examinations will not apply universally, but within their scope, there can still be truth to them.  For example, if I were to say 'it is wrong to move a horse shaped figurine three squares vertically and two squares to the right', this claim would be basically nonsensical, and there would be very little truth to it.  But if I then make that same claim within the context of chess - 'it is against the rules to move a knight from A2 to D4' - the claim has truth. 

What this means is that something can be true within a framework and false (or meaningless) within a different framework.  And that's where perspectives come in. 

Now, any claim of universal fact is always going to be either true or false.   But that's sort of where the difficulty lies, I think - it's not always easy to recognize the difference between a claim to universal fact and the assertion of a perspective. 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 02:23:51 PM by Jaffa »
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #166 on: October 27, 2020, 03:06:34 PM »
To some, truth IS an agenda.

That's a bumper sticker, though.  For many - not all, not most, but many - of the people that I see that would be the first to tell you that, aren't really dealing in A truth, they're dealing in THEIR truth.   There is no such thing - objectively, replicably - as "MY truth".    That's simply a euphemism for "my opinion". 

"Truth" isn't "the other side of the coin".  "Truth" is that which is not up for discussion, which is objectively proven regardless of any other influencing factors.   2+2=4.  if you do that with a number line, or a bunch of rocks, or the ENIAC supercomputer "two items" of something plus "two items" of something give you "four items".  There's no Democratic platform on 2+2, there's no "by the standard of 'no harm to anyone'" aspect to 2+2, there's no "gender specific" angle to 2+2, there's no "native people's" or "people of color" 2+2.  Pure water is comprised of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. John Kennedy was President in 1962.

there is no political platform could be made using this standard.

Don't disagree; but we're not talking about political platforms, we're talking about curricula for teaching our kids.   The reference I made to "political platforms" was merely to say that a teacher invested in "truth" should not be teaching a platform to the kids.   (That's not to say that they can't teach platformS, plural, to kids). 

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #167 on: October 27, 2020, 03:17:34 PM »
Stadler, I don't disagree with any of that, but I do want to bring something for context. 

While your 2+2=4 example is specifically designed to rule out "by the standard of 'no harm to anyone'" qualifiers, it's worth noting that it is possible to examine truth with qualifiers attached.  It's possible to examine a claim within a certain framework, and it's possible to examine the implications of a claim without necessarily asserting the truth of that claim.  These examinations will not apply universally, but within their scope, there can still be truth to them.  For example, if I were to say 'it is wrong to move a horse shaped figurine three squares vertically and two squares to the right', this claim would be basically nonsensical, and there would be very little truth to it.  But if I then make that same claim within the context of chess - 'it is against the rules to move a knight from A2 to D4' - the claim has truth. 

What this means is that something can be true within a framework and false (or meaningless) within a different framework.  And that's where perspectives come in. 

Now, any claim of universal fact is always going to be either true or false.   But that's sort of where the difficulty lies, I think - it's not always easy to recognize the difference between a claim to universal fact and the assertion of a perspective.

100%; I speak frequently of frames, and don't disagree.   The frame of reference for a student in school shouldn't be "Democrat" or "Republican" (or the party of the teacher). 

Look, I get that I'm giving rather extreme examples here, but perspective is part of my point.  ALL humans have a reference point, and all truth is subject to that to a degree.  Just delivering a curriculum in the United States adopts a point of view vis-a-vis Europe or Asia.   I just think in our zeal to further our own political agenda, we need to take a step back and reassess the where we sit in the bigger picture, and reassess the terminology we're using to do that.  Specifically to schools, I think we need to do a better job of either adopting frames that apply to all the students, or being VERY clear what frame is adopted, and what the consequences of adopting that frame are to the others that are available.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 24486
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #168 on: October 27, 2020, 03:21:08 PM »
Now, any claim of universal fact is always going to be either true or false.   But that's sort of where the difficulty lies, I think - it's not always easy to recognize the difference between a claim to universal fact and the assertion of a perspective.

Sorry for the multiple replies, but this in particular is important.  A part of the problem is the way the discussion itself has been corrupted; when the consequences are being deemed "racist!" or "socialist!" or something else that goes to character and not just disagreement, it makes it doubly harder to have the conversation about recognition.    I think I spend a lot of time here and elsewhere talking about just that: the difference between a claim to universal fact and the assertion of a perspective.   I see that line bludgeoned on the daily, and I'm not thrilled with the level of response in many cases to that.

Offline Jaffa

  • Just Jaffa
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4767
  • Gender: Male
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #169 on: October 27, 2020, 03:33:27 PM »
Sorry for the multiple replies, but this in particular is important. 

I'm never going to fault you for highlighting the importance of a thing I said.   ;)

In all seriousness, I want to clarify that I really wasn't trying to disagree or argue with you.  I only wanted to point out some context that I thought might be getting lost in the back and forth.  The particular example of teaching in schools is not one I feel qualified to weigh in on (don't have kids, not a teacher, dropped out of high school), so I'll leave you all to it.  :)
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 10876
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #170 on: October 27, 2020, 06:40:25 PM »
Stadler, I don't disagree with any of that, but I do want to bring something for context. 

While your 2+2=4 example is specifically designed to rule out "by the standard of 'no harm to anyone'" qualifiers, it's worth noting that it is possible to examine truth with qualifiers attached.  It's possible to examine a claim within a certain framework, and it's possible to examine the implications of a claim without necessarily asserting the truth of that claim.  These examinations will not apply universally, but within their scope, there can still be truth to them.  For example, if I were to say 'it is wrong to move a horse shaped figurine three squares vertically and two squares to the right', this claim would be basically nonsensical, and there would be very little truth to it.  But if I then make that same claim within the context of chess - 'it is against the rules to move a knight from A2 to D4' - the claim has truth. 

What this means is that something can be true within a framework and false (or meaningless) within a different framework.  And that's where perspectives come in. 

Now, any claim of universal fact is always going to be either true or false.   But that's sort of where the difficulty lies, I think - it's not always easy to recognize the difference between a claim to universal fact and the assertion of a perspective.

100%; I speak frequently of frames, and don't disagree.   The frame of reference for a student in school shouldn't be "Democrat" or "Republican" (or the party of the teacher). 

Look, I get that I'm giving rather extreme examples here, but perspective is part of my point.  ALL humans have a reference point, and all truth is subject to that to a degree.  Just delivering a curriculum in the United States adopts a point of view vis-a-vis Europe or Asia.   I just think in our zeal to further our own political agenda, we need to take a step back and reassess the where we sit in the bigger picture, and reassess the terminology we're using to do that.  Specifically to schools, I think we need to do a better job of either adopting frames that apply to all the students, or being VERY clear what frame is adopted, and what the consequences of adopting that frame are to the others that are available.

That's why some people of color want segregated schools, because of the frame of teaching, they see that the only way to teach their children what they need to know is to have them segregated. The same way, languages are taught in school. Here in New Mexico, some tribes have their own schools, usually up to middle school. They teach them things related to their identity, and also things that are required by the state.

You have The Black people coming up with ideas that can help them, the way THEY feel is a right way for them. Then you have Non-Black people telling them, NO. I say, let them do it, leave them to teach their own people.

See, the Truth I am seeing being revealed slowly to me, is America is a big human experiment. Nowhere in history have Humans, all lived in one area together, with many perspectives and views (meaning Cultures, and Customs). The Black people have had their Identity stolen from them, since they were taken from their homelands, as Slaves, and now They don't have an identity. Us Natives have an Heritage/identity, White Americans have an Heritage/Identity, Asian People have Heritage/Identity, Muslim People have a Heritage/Identity, even Hispanic people have a Heritage/Idenity...All of them know where they come from, and can go back to their place of origin. The Black People of America do not have this, they know they come from Africa, but that's it. They don't know these 4 things, of Culture, Traditions, Customs, and Language. These things, are what some Black People, are trying to get their people to understand, Where they truly come from and the 4 things that make them who they are, some of these Black People, have high Native Blood, and are more Native than Black, yet don't know it either, due to Urbanization of Natives.


Sorry for the multiple replies, but this in particular is important. 
The particular example of teaching in schools is not one I feel qualified to weigh in on (don't have kids, not a teacher, dropped out of high school), so I'll leave you all to it.  :)

Teaching in schools was forced upon us Natives, so we have a vastly different perception of schooling than the white person does. And I am only one, trying to tell you our perspective.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9793
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #171 on: October 27, 2020, 08:29:01 PM »
1955: Segregation based on race is bad. 
2020: Segregation based on race is good.

I do not believe people of color wanting segregated schools is a popular opinion outside the fringe.

And Ben I do not think it as as simple as a "black people think this, white people tell them they are wrong." There are plenty of diverse backgrounds and cultures on school boards, and I truly believe they are doing what they feel is right to serve all students, which is how it should be. We cannot have a society where different people are teaching their kids differently based on their own backgrounds and cultures.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 45919
  • Gender: Male
  • Head Judge of the Peanut Gallery
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #172 on: October 27, 2020, 08:33:15 PM »
The curriculums should be merged. No way in hell should kids of different backgrounds be separated. How the fuck are we going to get past racism if that happens?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 10876
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #173 on: October 27, 2020, 08:56:17 PM »
1955: Segregation based on race is bad. 
2020: Segregation based on race is good.

I do not believe people of color wanting segregated schools is a popular opinion outside the fringe.

And Ben I do not think it as as simple as a "black people think this, white people tell them they are wrong." There are plenty of diverse backgrounds and cultures on school boards, and I truly believe they are doing what they feel is right to serve all students, which is how it should be. We cannot have a society where different people are teaching their kids differently based on their own backgrounds and cultures.

I know it's not so simple. And I'm sure they know that. It's not really segregated either. See, it's weird here in New Mexico, because our state has a High Native and Hispanic Population, that outshines the White American population. We're a state that has a strong Cultural Heritage, both from Native and Spanish origins, Our population still practices Customs and Traditions from both Spanish and Native Cultures. In 10th Grade, we were required to Learn New Mexico History, it was our entire History class Sophomore year. We have classes now in some public schools dedicated to Native Languages and only those of the Tribe that speaks that certain language can attend. The Tribal Schools are on Tribal Land, and others can attend those schools. A lot of our state schools do Pageants about Myths, and Stories related to our State Cultures and Heritages, one of them is La Llorona.

I think these Black Segregation Schools, are intending it to be like this. To teach their people where they come from, their heritage, and origins.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9793
  • Gender: Male
  • Inglourious Basstard
Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #174 on: October 27, 2020, 09:06:38 PM »
In 10th Grade, we were required to Learn New Mexico History,

That's great, all histories and cultures should be taught. There is a large population of Natives here as well and I remember taking classes about Native history and culture.

I think these Black Segregation Schools, are intending it to be like this. To teach their people where they come from, their heritage, and origins.

Families should do this, not schools. Teaching children about different cultures and histories is good thing. There should be more of it. Basing a school's curriculum around one specific culture is not. Maybe that is not what is happening, but that is kinda what it sounds like. That shows no desire to learn about anything other than yourself. I admit I know nothing of these schools. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "Black Segregation School."

« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 09:16:38 PM by Cool Chris »
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'