Author Topic: Racism and Privilege  (Read 14211 times)

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Offline Harmony

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2020, 10:43:01 AM »
Not sure why you made it personal.  It's not about "satisfying" ME.  To me, it's about...not sure how to best word it because it's a fuzzy concept...growing in a way that only comes from interacting with others, friend, enemy, and neutral alike.  When we interact with those we disagree with, even if (and, IMO, especially if) we disagree with them, it promotes growth.  Sometimes, that growth is with us, and we realize that WE were the ones whose perspective was somewhat off and can be adjusted.  Sometimes, that growth is by eventually having the other person come to that realization.  Other times, it is just from the mutual acknowledgement that other people look at the world differently than we do, and even if they are wrong, that's ok.

And you're right--I don't know your family or situation.  But do I need to in order to discuss the point?  Not saying it isn't important to stand in your shoes.  I feel your frustration.  I'm just posing my own thoughts on what you posted.

I'll just conclude with this:  "How many of these conversations do I need to have and get nowhere . . . ?"  I'm in my 50s too.  And my answer is still:  "As many as I can until my last dying breath."  In my opinion and observation, we don't truly know when and how much progress is being made, even when it looks like we may be getting nowhere.

I made it personal because you did.  You even admitted that you didn't know my family or my situation so please don't talk to me like you do.  Fair enough?

"As many as I can until my last dying breath."  Great.  That is YOU.  I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do this.  I'm saying, I'm done doing it.  And that is ME.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2020, 10:48:13 AM »
Well, perhaps off topic a bit then, but I guess I am sorta starting to see why maybe some of those conversations don't get anywhere.  There may be a slight possibility that it isn't for the reasons you think.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2020, 10:48:47 AM »
Not sure why you made it personal.  It's not about "satisfying" ME.  To me, it's about...not sure how to best word it because it's a fuzzy concept...growing in a way that only comes from interacting with others, friend, enemy, and neutral alike.  When we interact with those we disagree with, even if (and, IMO, especially if) we disagree with them, it promotes growth.  Sometimes, that growth is with us, and we realize that WE were the ones whose perspective was somewhat off and can be adjusted.  Sometimes, that growth is by eventually having the other person come to that realization.  Other times, it is just from the mutual acknowledgement that other people look at the world differently than we do, and even if they are wrong, that's ok.

And you're right--I don't know your family or situation.  But do I need to in order to discuss the point?  Not saying it isn't important to stand in your shoes.  I feel your frustration.  I'm just posing my own thoughts on what you posted.

I'll just conclude with this:  "How many of these conversations do I need to have and get nowhere . . . ?"  I'm in my 50s too.  And my answer is still:  "As many as I can until my last dying breath."  In my opinion and observation, we don't truly know when and how much progress is being made, even when it looks like we may be getting nowhere.

I made it personal because you did.  You even admitted that you didn't know my family or my situation so please don't talk to me like you do.  Fair enough?

"As many as I can until my last dying breath."  Great.  That is YOU.  I'm not telling you that you shouldn't do this.  I'm saying, I'm done doing it.  And that is ME.

Harmony.....with respect.....I didn't read Bosk's initial post/response as any type of personal 'attack' or anything on you and in fact I think he went out of his way to make sure to make the point that he wasn't doing so? I think you may have read it wrong. 
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2020, 10:50:43 AM »
Well, perhaps off topic a bit then, but I guess I am sorta starting to see why maybe some of those conversations don't get anywhere.  There may be a slight possibility that it isn't for the reasons you think.

Taking this to PM
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2020, 11:26:16 AM »
I'd like some of our professionals to weigh in, particularly Adami, but I'm reading more and more that the bullying, combative nature of battling racism doesn't work, despite some high-profile, isolated successes.  Changing minds on a person-to-person basis, is rooted in education, inclusivity, and not making the discussion a character assassination.  That takes work and patience no doubt, but if this is the issue that we all say it is, if it's worth blowing up fundamental aspects of our society (in additional literally blowing up buildings, businesses and people) I would think that the "cost" of patience and effort would be worth it.  (Note: this has nothing to do with Harmony's family; this has more to do with the general societal approach of outcasting those we view as bigots). 

This is one of several articles laying out what I'm talking about (and it has the added benefit of addressing the "top down" approach that has been favored, and which has not only failed, but may be making the issue worse.

Here are two other interesting articles (albeit only tangentially related to the actual discussion; they serve more as background):
The concept of "ingroups" and "outgroups"
Is "race" even necessary?

Offline Adami

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2020, 12:25:42 PM »
Read that first article, and agreed with almost all of it. Don't have the mental capacity to read the other two (sorry, cramming for a huge test in a few weeks and my brain pretty weak)

But yes, Studly is right. Being combative (generally) doesn't work. It makes people double down on their beliefs.

The contact hypothesis which was alluded to in the first article is correct as well. The more contact everyone has with superordinate goals and an emphasis on teamwork, that does way more than lectures or training.

Which is one reason I tend to scoff at the idea of wanting to just train the cops to be less racist. They don't need training on that, people have told them it's bad. It just doesn't work. You don't generally logic someone into being less racist. You CAN logic them into noticing things they didn't notice before though, which is always helpful. AND why it's good not take a combative approach.

For instance, like most people (maybe even in here) until some years ago, I would use the word Gyp or Gypped to describe being stilted or cheated. I just had no idea it was a racial slur against the Roma people. As soon as someone, kindly, pointed it out, I was aware and stopped. But if that person had attacked me, insulted me, and yelled at me, who knows?

That said, Harmony has a point that it usually doesn't work anyway. Logically talking to someone, especially of your same whatever doesn't result in a ton. It can, but not too terribly often. Experience does it best, and even then.....some people are just doing to be dicks.

Racism, sexism, homophobia, whatever version of in-group/out-group bias you want to discuss will always exist because that's just how we've demonstrated to naturally be since recorded history began and I doubt it will change. We're not all going to stop having in-group/out-group biases. We can change it, limit it, but we'll never eliminate it.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2020, 05:20:30 PM »
Serious question, Harmony:  Respectfully, is this the best approach for what you are trying to accomplish (referring primarily to the bolded).  Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but here is how I read it:  "When I hear something I believe is racist, I will immediately call it out.  If I do not see an immediate change of heart, I will sever all ties [family, friend, acquaintance, whatever]."  I fully agree with, support, and commend for the first sentence.  But I am questioning whether the second is productive and effective. 

I'm in my 50s.  How many of these conversations do I need to have and get nowhere that would satisfy you?  With respect, you don't know my family and the years of having these conversations.  Years of trying to be an example.  Years of trying to be forgiving and understanding.

I'm not doing it any more.  I'm sorry if that doesn't meet your requirements.





I feel bad Harmony took offence to Bosk's post. I thought it was very respectful. Unfortunately it wasn't clear from her earlier post that she had struggled with members of her family for some time with this. I really didn't feel Bosk made it personal at all. I'm sorry she took it that way.



This ended pretty badly because she was a real contributor here it seemed. Hopefully she'll reconsider at some point.

would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2020, 06:00:09 PM »
I also thought bosk1's post was more than reasonable, but we all react to things differently.  Hopefully, they hashed it out over PM's and all is good.  :tup :tup

Offline bosk1

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2020, 06:00:36 PM »
Yeah, not sure how I could have made it any more respectful than that, and attempted to explain as much via PM.  Oh well.  :dunno:
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2020, 11:28:51 AM »
I guess I can put this in here...

One aspect that I hardly hear talked about, how one sided we (people of color) are with political parties. You have our own people assuming we're not with the people, we work with the white man and are traitors to our people, if we choose to go Republican, Independent isn't as bad since you're not part of a central group entity.

We have people who tend to not entirely agree with the Democrat ideology, and would be good in office. But, they're held back from the votes if they don't run Democrat. You see, the reasons I stated above are why they don't run as a Republican, and run against the current Democrat in office and have a chance of actually winning.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2020, 09:53:42 PM »
Just saw that she bailed. That's a damn shame. She was more valuable here than she probably realized.

Yeah, not sure how I could have made it any more respectful than that, and attempted to explain as much via PM.  Oh well.  :dunno:
Like others have said, I thought she overreacted to your point, and I was actually of a similar mindset. Having said that, this was the umpteenth time y'all have had issues, and up until the final straw I thought she was largely in the right. While I'm certain you don't see it this way, I thought you were often on her case unnecessarily, and I'm not the slightest bit surprised that she approached your post from a very defensive mindset. She was right to. You mentioned a pattern in the drink thread, and to paraphrase what you said a few posts back, There may be a slight possibility that it isn't the one you think. By way of constructive advice, I would recommend that you consider the various people who won't post here because they can't get along with you. They're not irrational and they're not dipshits. They're very reasonable people who find you too difficult to get on with to bother. I don't seem to have their problem, you and I tend to get along fine, but I can't help notice that there does seem to be a significant issue and a recurring theme here, and it's not simply people rage quitting because they don't like having their opinions questioned.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2020, 09:57:09 AM »
I don't think it's productive to go line by line, but suffice it to say:  I agree with some, and disagree with some, and, as is often the case, you make some very good points.  I'll mostly leave it at that.  However, although I dislike talking about someone who isn't here, a couple of things in general relating to this issue:
1.  Strong opinions breed strong opposing views.  There's nothing wrong with that (provided they are worded appropriately, of course).  And she typically presents VERY strong opinions (which she would no doubt agree with if she were here).
2.  This was anything but a strong opposing view, and was incredibly mild and respectful (moreso than a good portion of P/R, wouldn't you agree?).

I'm not accusing anyone of being "irrational" or "dipshits."  But that also doesn't mean they are right.  Harmony brought up Dave Manchester a couple of times in the discussion.  I don't know/understand why he left.  But it wasn't over any interaction with me, as far as I know.  He did PM me just before leaving, but I did not understand what he was getting at, or why he was upset, and when I asked for clarification, he declined to provide that.  And that's fine.  That is his right.  But what I do know is that I had not had any interaction with him prior to that during that timeframe.  And as far as I know, I don't really recall any specific interaction with him since he's been here.  More often than not, if he was posting in P/R, I disagreed with what he was saying.  But I rarely if ever responded to anything he wrote, so...  :dunno:  Not sure what the tie-in is there.

But yeah:
That's a damn shame. She was more valuable here than she probably realized.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2020, 01:05:11 PM »
So what does "bailed" mean?  All I saw was she took this issue to PM.  Is there some more grand gesture?

Offline Adami

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2020, 01:07:30 PM »
So what does "bailed" mean?  All I saw was she took this issue to PM.  Is there some more grand gesture?

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Online El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2020, 03:43:39 PM »
1.  Strong opinions breed strong opposing views.  There's nothing wrong with that (provided they are worded appropriately, of course).  And she typically presents VERY strong opinions (which she would no doubt agree with if she were here).

So in the interest of fairness I went back and read a bunch of her posts. I didn't recall her being particularly strongly opinionated, and what I read kind of put her in the middle of the pack here insofar as strong opinions go. She's a far cry from me, that's for sure. And I bring this up because, to be honest, that you saw her as having such strong opinions might be part of the problem here.

Quote
I'm not accusing anyone of being "irrational" or "dipshits."  But that also doesn't mean they are right.  Harmony brought up Dave Manchester a couple of times in the discussion.  I don't know/understand why he left.  But it wasn't over any interaction with me, as far as I know.  He did PM me just before leaving, but I did not understand what he was getting at, or why he was upset, and when I asked for clarification, he declined to provide that.  And that's fine.  That is his right.  But what I do know is that I had not had any interaction with him prior to that during that timeframe.  And as far as I know, I don't really recall any specific interaction with him since he's been here.  More often than not, if he was posting in P/R, I disagreed with what he was saying.  But I rarely if ever responded to anything he wrote, so...  :dunno:  Not sure what the tie-in is there.
I make it a point to never speak for others in interpersonal matters. I'm not qualified to speak as to how they really feel and it'll only make matters worse if I try. All I can really say on the matter is that personal interaction is only part of the equation. There's also simple observation of how things work. You've made a couple of posts around here in the last few days that looked over the line to me. If I were new here and was seeing those types of posts, alongside you acting in a moderator capacity, to be honest it'd concern the hell out of me.
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Offline Lethean

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2020, 08:03:50 PM »
I'm not sure whether I should post this here or in the police brutality thread (or at all, but I guess I'm doing it).  But it's related to the video in the OP, and the reactions to it - people not knowing what to say, and so they just move on.

I think maybe now is the time to *not* move on.  I'm not saying that I think everyone needs to go join a protest. But I think that white people (myself included) should take what's going on now as an opportunity to do something.  I think there's a lot that can be done in between marching and protesting and just kind of saying "that's sad, but there's nothing I can do about it."  Maybe that something could be making a donation. Maybe that something could be looking up your local police department's policies to see if they include mandatory body cams and descalation training, and if they don't, writing to urge them to do so.

Maybe that something starts off even more basic.  Maybe it starts off by acknowledging one of the greater points that she was making in that video, beyond just police brutality. That because of what has happened to black people over the years since they were brought to this country, they really aren't, as a whole, starting off on an equal playing field. And maybe that leads you (general you) to stop saying things like "this is a problem with black culture" or "the black community needs to fix these problems."   The black community *is* trying to fix these problems, but maybe we need to realize that the rest of us have a role to play in that too.  Maybe we start with an attitude change, we start by not wondering why they haven't been able to get it together in the 150 years since the end of slavery.  Because it's definitely not that simple.  I know I for one had no clue about the Tulsa and rosewood incidents that she mentioned. And there's a lot more than just those two. There are plenty of other things as well, things that the user contest sanity has written about so well.  (I don't know if he has done so recently, but a while back he had some great posts explaining housing discrimination, segregation, and a lot of elements that got us to where we are today.)  So maybe we start by just thinking about that. Then, maybe if there's time read some books recommended by people of color, like The New Jim Crow.  Maybe we start by not rolling our eyes at terms like systemic racism and microagressions.  If we start with having an open mind, and listening to people of color and not dismissing them and their concerns, it will be no small thing. 

Maybe we consider things like reorganizing our police departments and directing some resources to mental health or other places where they'd be better spent.  I'm not saying run out and do it, but think seriously about it.  Maybe we consider how we can integrate our schools better.  Here's a great piece on that issue that I heard a few years ago:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one

I read a comment by someone who has been working on these sorts of issues for years, who said something like: "for those who are just getting involved now, you're going to want to fix things overnight. You can't, but please don't get frustrated and walk away in the next couple weeks."

And again, I don't think that necessarily means you have to join a protest. There are a lot of other things that could be done, starting with just taking another look.

Apologies for any typos and for a lack of eloquence trying to convey my thoughts.  I'm definitely not directing this at any one person, but rather hoping this situation can be a turning point where we all care more and contribute in the ways we can, myself included.


Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2020, 08:18:56 PM »
that episode of This American Life is great I also highly recommend it.  The audio of the white parents yelling about not wanting the black kids to come to their school is something I'll never forget. I'm sure those people are otherwise pefectly upstanding citizens, it's like they couldn't hear themselves, I don't know how else to describe it.  That's not birmingham in the 60s,  this is Missouri in the 2010s
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 08:25:46 PM by XeRocks81 »

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2020, 07:14:36 AM »
Is it just me, or do people seem to be overcompensating for Juneteenth this year? I wasn't aware that people even celebrated this holiday. I've seen album releases moved and now multiple companies are giving it as a paid holiday.

Offline Chino

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2020, 07:50:20 AM »
Maybe I'm just ignorant or something, but I never once heard the phrase "juneteenth" until last week. I thought it was a typo in the title of the first article I saw about it.

Offline lordxizor

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2020, 07:58:14 AM »
Maybe I'm just ignorant or something, but I never once heard the phrase "juneteenth" until last week. I thought it was a typo in the title of the first article I saw about it.
I've heard of it before, but kind of assumed it was like Kwanzaa, a black holiday that gets some lip service, but only a handful of people actually actively celebrate.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2020, 08:43:17 AM »
I'm not sure whether I should post this here or in the police brutality thread (or at all, but I guess I'm doing it).  But it's related to the video in the OP, and the reactions to it - people not knowing what to say, and so they just move on.

I think maybe now is the time to *not* move on.  I'm not saying that I think everyone needs to go join a protest. But I think that white people (myself included) should take what's going on now as an opportunity to do something.  I think there's a lot that can be done in between marching and protesting and just kind of saying "that's sad, but there's nothing I can do about it."  Maybe that something could be making a donation. Maybe that something could be looking up your local police department's policies to see if they include mandatory body cams and descalation training, and if they don't, writing to urge them to do so.

Maybe that something starts off even more basic.  Maybe it starts off by acknowledging one of the greater points that she was making in that video, beyond just police brutality. That because of what has happened to black people over the years since they were brought to this country, they really aren't, as a whole, starting off on an equal playing field. And maybe that leads you (general you) to stop saying things like "this is a problem with black culture" or "the black community needs to fix these problems."   The black community *is* trying to fix these problems, but maybe we need to realize that the rest of us have a role to play in that too.  Maybe we start with an attitude change, we start by not wondering why they haven't been able to get it together in the 150 years since the end of slavery.  Because it's definitely not that simple.  I know I for one had no clue about the Tulsa and rosewood incidents that she mentioned. And there's a lot more than just those two. There are plenty of other things as well, things that the user contest sanity has written about so well.  (I don't know if he has done so recently, but a while back he had some great posts explaining housing discrimination, segregation, and a lot of elements that got us to where we are today.)  So maybe we start by just thinking about that. Then, maybe if there's time read some books recommended by people of color, like The New Jim Crow.  Maybe we start by not rolling our eyes at terms like systemic racism and microagressions.  If we start with having an open mind, and listening to people of color and not dismissing them and their concerns, it will be no small thing. 

Maybe we consider things like reorganizing our police departments and directing some resources to mental health or other places where they'd be better spent.  I'm not saying run out and do it, but think seriously about it.  Maybe we consider how we can integrate our schools better.  Here's a great piece on that issue that I heard a few years ago:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one

I read a comment by someone who has been working on these sorts of issues for years, who said something like: "for those who are just getting involved now, you're going to want to fix things overnight. You can't, but please don't get frustrated and walk away in the next couple weeks."

And again, I don't think that necessarily means you have to join a protest. There are a lot of other things that could be done, starting with just taking another look.

Apologies for any typos and for a lack of eloquence trying to convey my thoughts.  I'm definitely not directing this at any one person, but rather hoping this situation can be a turning point where we all care more and contribute in the ways we can, myself included.

But in any event, you HAVE to buy in.  There's little or no room anywhere in your (well-written, eloquent, well-meaning) post and in many of the opinions surrounding this upheaval for those that don't agree 100% with the movement.   Even though I agree more than not (there is a LOT of room for improvement, but yes, I believe there are things that BOTH sides can do), I know I'm reluctant - in America, circa 2020 - to throw into a movement that so actively embraces the mantra "you're either with us or you're a racist".   

Offline Lethean

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2020, 10:21:11 AM »
That's not what I was implying at all Statler. You *don't* have to agree with everything and not everyone in "the movement" agrees with each other anyway.  I don't think it's even necessarily just one movement.  You (general you) can still find ways to help that are within your means to do so, again even starting just by listening and reading, and not scoffing or being dismissive. 

Offline Lethean

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2020, 10:36:59 AM »
Also I'll add - I can only imagine that the fear of being called racist pales in comparison to what a lot of people of color fear, and what they've faced over the years.  We've probably all done or said things that someone considers racist, and probably some of the time, we actually were.  Maybe, most likely, completely unintentionally.  And sometimes we've probably been accused when we didn't deserve it.  But why let that stop us from trying to help right a very serious wrong?

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2020, 11:15:34 AM »
Also I'll add - I can only imagine that the fear of being called racist pales in comparison to what a lot of people of color fear, and what they've faced over the years.  We've probably all done or said things that someone considers racist, and probably some of the time, we actually were.  Maybe, most likely, completely unintentionally.  And sometimes we've probably been accused when we didn't deserve it.  But why let that stop us from trying to help right a very serious wrong?

Why make that comparison, though?  To the person in the moment, the perception is what matters. There are a lot of things I can't imagine, and other things that I've experienced that others can't image.  How can we possibly find any standard by which that's a productive conversation?  If you want to ascribe "objective" moralities to things, well, there's a lot of cases of racism (and "MeToo", and homophobia) that were probably not that big a deal in the big picture.  That guy in Colorado; was the world going to end if THAT guy didn't get THAT wedding cake from THAT cake maker?  And yet, we don't diminish that man's experience, and we allow him his day in court.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2020, 11:18:23 AM »
That's not what I was implying at all Statler. You *don't* have to agree with everything and not everyone in "the movement" agrees with each other anyway.  I don't think it's even necessarily just one movement.  You (general you) can still find ways to help that are within your means to do so, again even starting just by listening and reading, and not scoffing or being dismissive.

But you kind of do have to agree.  I've already gotten the "white privilege" card thrown twice (well, once, and once implied), and "dismissive" thrown three times (not all here, but there are some of the same people in the other conversation) and I DO, generally, support the idea of the movement (if not the tactics).   I know you mean well, I do, and I can name things that I COULD do if wanted to move the ball forward; it just so happens that "point out data and provide perspective" is one of them and that's not getting a grand reception.   

Offline Lethean

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2020, 04:20:10 PM »
Also I'll add - I can only imagine that the fear of being called racist pales in comparison to what a lot of people of color fear, and what they've faced over the years.  We've probably all done or said things that someone considers racist, and probably some of the time, we actually were.  Maybe, most likely, completely unintentionally.  And sometimes we've probably been accused when we didn't deserve it.  But why let that stop us from trying to help right a very serious wrong?

Why make that comparison, though?  To the person in the moment, the perception is what matters. There are a lot of things I can't imagine, and other things that I've experienced that others can't image.  How can we possibly find any standard by which that's a productive conversation?  If you want to ascribe "objective" moralities to things, well, there's a lot of cases of racism (and "MeToo", and homophobia) that were probably not that big a deal in the big picture.  That guy in Colorado; was the world going to end if THAT guy didn't get THAT wedding cake from THAT cake maker?  And yet, we don't diminish that man's experience, and we allow him his day in court.

I don't diminish that man's experience, and apparently neither do you, but a lot of people do, and did.  There are a lot of things one will never really understand until it happens to them.  But with most of those things, people at least acknowledge it.  Someone loses a parent/child/sibling.  Someone loses their job.  Has to put down their pet.  People who have been lucky enough not to experience that yet don't really get it.  But they don't make light of the situation, they don't tell them to just get over it, they don't tell them it's all in their head or doesn't exist. 

I'm making the comparison because you seem to be saying (and I apologise if I've misinterpreted you) that you may not want to help, to participate, because someone in "the movement" has or may in the future call you racist.  What about the vast majority who haven't done that?  Maybe your actions might help the person who called you racist, but if it also helps a lot more, then so what? 

Offline Lethean

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2020, 04:35:30 PM »
That's not what I was implying at all Statler. You *don't* have to agree with everything and not everyone in "the movement" agrees with each other anyway.  I don't think it's even necessarily just one movement.  You (general you) can still find ways to help that are within your means to do so, again even starting just by listening and reading, and not scoffing or being dismissive.

But you kind of do have to agree.  I've already gotten the "white privilege" card thrown twice (well, once, and once implied), and "dismissive" thrown three times (not all here, but there are some of the same people in the other conversation) and I DO, generally, support the idea of the movement (if not the tactics).   I know you mean well, I do, and I can name things that I COULD do if wanted to move the ball forward; it just so happens that "point out data and provide perspective" is one of them and that's not getting a grand reception.

Well, maybe because it's not actually helping.  If someone has their facts objectively wrong, by all means, let them know.  (There's always a time and place for that though). But if the perspective is to put white privilege in quotes or talk about it being a card, similar to the race card, I would say that's not helpful and that's where maybe it would be a good time to listen and read and rethink things.  An example is the link I posted about schools.  I used to be of the opinion that anyone could do well, unless perhaps they had certain conditions, if they just worked hard at school.  Even if the school wasn't so great.  But it's not nearly that simple.  It doesn't diminish me - it doesn't take away from the fact that I worked really hard, I earned those grades, etc.  But the environment in which I was able to do it was certainly a privilege.  It's not to say that I don't deserve to be where I am today, but maybe to say that others aren't starting out with equal footing, or even footing that's in the same ballpark.  Maybe I personally didn't cause this; I didn't.  It was those in power over decades and centuries.  But now it's going to take all of us or hopefully most of us to right those wrongs.

Offline TAC

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2020, 05:48:12 PM »
I have never in my life heard of Juneteenth.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2020, 06:42:51 PM »
Must be a regional thing. Juneteenth has been a thing for as long as I can remember. And aside from the Trump scheduling his pep rally on the day, I'm not sure that I've heard anything more about it this year than in the past. There might be a few more people getting into it up North in light of recent events, so white folk are just more aware of it than in the past.

And credit where due, Trump postponing his pep rally by a day because of it is probably the most aware thing he's ever done. I'm not sure he was even being criticized for it, though that's probably why he rescheduled rather than digging in his elevated heels.


edit: Definitely a regional thing. A Texas thing, in fact. It's just been spreading outward.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2020, 07:01:49 PM »
Yeah I googled it and it mentions an event in Texas.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2020, 07:09:54 PM »
it celebrates the end of slavery in Texas right? It was the most isolated state of the confederacy so slavery kept going there a while even if the war was over in the east, as far as i understand

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2020, 10:29:57 PM »
Maybe we consider things like reorganizing our police departments and directing some resources to mental health or other places where they'd be better spent.  I'm not saying run out and do it, but think seriously about it.  Maybe we consider how we can integrate our schools better.  Here's a great piece on that issue that I heard a few years ago:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-one

I will look at this later, but I am hesitant to get too invested in anything from this author based on what I've read about her historical inaccuracies in other works.

I have never in my life heard of Juneteenth.

I feel like I've heard of it before this past week, but not positive I could have told you what it was. Totally a regional thing.

Now I see lots of companies are giving their employees that day off (or extra pay for working that day) as "an opportunity to continue to learn, connect with each other and reflect on how we can move forward and achieve permanent and lasting change.” What's the over/under on how many years it takes for this holiday to become a day of sales at furniture stores, hot dog eating contests, and all-day sports viewing?  (that's a shot at American culture, not the day itself)
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2020, 08:46:47 AM »
Also I'll add - I can only imagine that the fear of being called racist pales in comparison to what a lot of people of color fear, and what they've faced over the years.  We've probably all done or said things that someone considers racist, and probably some of the time, we actually were.  Maybe, most likely, completely unintentionally.  And sometimes we've probably been accused when we didn't deserve it.  But why let that stop us from trying to help right a very serious wrong?

Why make that comparison, though?  To the person in the moment, the perception is what matters. There are a lot of things I can't imagine, and other things that I've experienced that others can't image.  How can we possibly find any standard by which that's a productive conversation?  If you want to ascribe "objective" moralities to things, well, there's a lot of cases of racism (and "MeToo", and homophobia) that were probably not that big a deal in the big picture.  That guy in Colorado; was the world going to end if THAT guy didn't get THAT wedding cake from THAT cake maker?  And yet, we don't diminish that man's experience, and we allow him his day in court.

I don't diminish that man's experience, and apparently neither do you, but a lot of people do, and did.  There are a lot of things one will never really understand until it happens to them.  But with most of those things, people at least acknowledge it.  Someone loses a parent/child/sibling.  Someone loses their job.  Has to put down their pet.  People who have been lucky enough not to experience that yet don't really get it.  But they don't make light of the situation, they don't tell them to just get over it, they don't tell them it's all in their head or doesn't exist. 

I'm making the comparison because you seem to be saying (and I apologise if I've misinterpreted you) that you may not want to help, to participate, because someone in "the movement" has or may in the future call you racist.  What about the vast majority who haven't done that?  Maybe your actions might help the person who called you racist, but if it also helps a lot more, then so what?

But you hit on the problem:  too often "understanding" is a placeholder for "agreeing with".  I UNDERSTAND that guy that wanted that cake, I do not DIMINISH his feelings for wanting that cake and not getting it, but here's the thing: he isn't ENTITLED to that cake.   There are a LOT of things - from not getting a job, from being broken up with by a boy/girl, from watching your team lose, from feeling like if you were a different color you might have had a different set of options in life - that we can have COMPASSION for, but that doesn't mean we have to AGREE with it.

And increasingly, these conversations, with the "you're with us or against us", and especially "silence is consent" are of that nature.

And if you want something more substantive than "cakes", take guns.  I was born, raised and lived until maturity in the next town over from Sandy Hook.  My aunt used to live a 1/4 mile from the school (I would ride my bike there when we visited; she was right next to a town garage and they had a huge sandpile; nirvana for a kid).  The Sandy Hook kids went to MY middle school as their temp school (another school I used to ride my bike to).  The priest that did the national eulogy - Father Bob - was my parish priest in high school.  My old roommate and co-worker lost his neice in the shooting, and a guy I played hockey with up to college lost his son.    It is HOME.   It is CLOSE.   It's hard to deal with even years later.   Yet I watch Chris Murphy, my state Senator, crying and pimping for his gun laws and I'm out.  I do not agree that those are the solution to a kid like Adam Lanza.   I do not believe that feel-good panacea of "bump stocks" is going to make a dent in this problem.   Even that is considered blasphemy by some - many, including several people here - even though I have the numbers to back me up (they've all been posted here over the years numerous times).

Respectfully, you don't have it quite right; I don't see a space - yet - to help or participate, because the options available right now (it will change) are nostly those that I don't agree with.  And I worry that by not agreeing with the tactics that some DO consider me a racist.   I'm worried about being called a racist because a) I know what's in my heart, and b) it's a difficult thing to come back from.  I know for a fact if anyone got any reasonable feeling that I was I would lose my job.   I may lose my license (I'm in a rather blue state, one whose previous governor had a "thing" called "Connecticut Fair", which basically was the Democrat identity politics platform, no judgment).  It doesn't bother me on a practical level, because a), but it bothers me deeply on a philosophical level because it implicitly governs thought, and I really have a problem with that. 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 08:52:15 AM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2020, 09:13:30 AM »
That's not what I was implying at all Statler. You *don't* have to agree with everything and not everyone in "the movement" agrees with each other anyway.  I don't think it's even necessarily just one movement.  You (general you) can still find ways to help that are within your means to do so, again even starting just by listening and reading, and not scoffing or being dismissive.

But you kind of do have to agree.  I've already gotten the "white privilege" card thrown twice (well, once, and once implied), and "dismissive" thrown three times (not all here, but there are some of the same people in the other conversation) and I DO, generally, support the idea of the movement (if not the tactics).   I know you mean well, I do, and I can name things that I COULD do if wanted to move the ball forward; it just so happens that "point out data and provide perspective" is one of them and that's not getting a grand reception.

Well, maybe because it's not actually helping.  If someone has their facts objectively wrong, by all means, let them know.  (There's always a time and place for that though). But if the perspective is to put white privilege in quotes or talk about it being a card, similar to the race card, I would say that's not helpful and that's where maybe it would be a good time to listen and read and rethink things.  An example is the link I posted about schools.  I used to be of the opinion that anyone could do well, unless perhaps they had certain conditions, if they just worked hard at school.  Even if the school wasn't so great.  But it's not nearly that simple.  It doesn't diminish me - it doesn't take away from the fact that I worked really hard, I earned those grades, etc.  But the environment in which I was able to do it was certainly a privilege.  It's not to say that I don't deserve to be where I am today, but maybe to say that others aren't starting out with equal footing, or even footing that's in the same ballpark.  Maybe I personally didn't cause this; I didn't.  It was those in power over decades and centuries.  But now it's going to take all of us or hopefully most of us to right those wrongs.

Never say never, but in my mind, pointing out facts and data is never ultimately a bad thing.   It might be insensitive in the moment, but to say it's "not helping", well, I can't get my arms around that.   

Two points:  one, the "quotes" aren't to completely dismiss the entire concept of white privilege - it exists in some forms.   It is, though, to point out that just because someone says it doesn't make it so.   It's not automatic, and it's not a failsafe.  I apologize, but I don't see me stopping that, at least here, because it IS a card at times, to be thrown when the rest of the argument fails.   The fact of the matter is, we are all HUMANS at heart.  Imperfect, fallible and prone to mistakes and failures.   Just like not every single person that voted for Trump is a white nationalist racist, or an honest American looking for a new fresh face, so not every single kid dealing drugs in Father Panik Village is a budding Rhodes scholar, or a hopeless cracked out degenerate.   So each set of circumstances should be at least superficially assessed on its merits.   It's why I have zero problem with any of those police facing charges; they will have their day in court, with due process and a fair chance of appeal.


Offline jammindude

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2020, 06:35:52 PM »
This seemed like the best thread to say this in...but I was today years old when I found out there was anyone at all on the face of planet earth who thought that Mrs. Butterworth was black.

I even looked up the origins which state that she has always been undefined. But the commercials from the 70s made her sound more like Mrs Claus than any “mammy” stereotype.

I’m usually pretty open to the ideas of changing cultures and sensitivities, but this feels more like revisionist history.
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