Author Topic: Racism and Privilege  (Read 14201 times)

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Offline lordxizor

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #315 on: April 29, 2021, 09:11:38 AM »
I think the phrase "deserve to be in prison" is possibly the point of contention.
Please note that I wasn't suggesting that is the case, just pointing out that it is one explanation for why there is a disproportionate amount of black people in prison. By "deserve" I simply meant that they committed crimes that by law lead to prison time.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #316 on: April 29, 2021, 09:53:17 AM »
Systemic Racism doesn't happen now as much as it did back then before the civil rights act. Hell that isn't even 100 years old yet, so how can people expect racism to be completely gone in our lifetimes. It won't and will never be. This is a problem that takes generations to actually see the effect.

We are getting closer, but that doesn't mean the problems won't still be here.

The Prison System was used to incarcerate us Natives in the past because we didn't abide or submit to their rules and laws. In those times, in modern words, us Natives were labelled Criminals and Thugs, just like people label the Black People incarcerated now, because they broke the law.

We had to assimilate and abide by their laws and rules, only then were we considered "Civilized"....and honestly, I don't see much difference today, it's just evolved and made modern using modern terminology.

The issue with this is Self-Responsibilty. Not anything to do with race. It's basically, What are you doing for yourself to improve yourself and better the community itself. And right now, most are not being responsible and are being immature and taking the handout and wanting an easy way and don't want to put in the effort because it's hard. They like the comforts that distract them from achieving the self-responsibility. Which is what many Adults in the black community at trying to do, and teach their youth to have more self-responsibility. Because children imitate what's on TV, and we all know whats on that TV.....

How would you feel if all that was plastered on TV for the White race was nothing but the Hillbilly lifestyle? Because that is how Media portrays people and the youth eat that up.

Also, there are stigmas within the race itself that prevents that race from bettering themselves. Which is..."Oh that's, white man's stuff, or white man's music" we are finally seeing this stigma being broken within the black community as more youth and people are showing that they are more than capable of doing that. And these stigmas prevented them from achieving them.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 09:58:20 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #317 on: April 29, 2021, 10:46:45 AM »
As much as I would love to see it eradicated - it's a negative on every level, from factual, social, human rights, economics, practicalities, logic - I fear it's actually going to get worse.   It seems to me, the more we know - the more we learn about the roots and multipliers of racist/bigoted behavior - the less we do about it (my guess only, because the work is harder and less immediate).  It's at heart a problem of psychology, and unless and until we can get our arms around that, we're going to continue to shoot ourselves in the foot in terms of solving the problem and that makes me sad.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #318 on: April 29, 2021, 04:04:08 PM »
As much as I would love to see it eradicated - it's a negative on every level, from factual, social, human rights, economics, practicalities, logic - I fear it's actually going to get worse.   It seems to me, the more we know - the more we learn about the roots and multipliers of racist/bigoted behavior - the less we do about it (my guess only, because the work is harder and less immediate).  It's at heart a problem of psychology, and unless and until we can get our arms around that, we're going to continue to shoot ourselves in the foot in terms of solving the problem and that makes me sad.

The more I get into the issues of Racism, the more and more I realize it is a psychological issue. One that involves both the self and the other.

I say this too because of how BLM and those people are responding to this racism issue. What are they doing to better themselves, because all these opportunities are there. Or is it the Stigma that is caused by your own people that is preventing you from accessing these opportunities that are there?

One is placing blame on "The Other",  while the other places blame on "The Self".

It's one question I asked about myself and my people, and to analyze which problems are in fact because of Racism/Prejudices or problems caused of our own volition.

It's seeing and recognizing what really is caused by systemic racism and what is caused by ones own self actions...

I'd say, this article and what happened to the people is a good example of Systemic Racism

Quote
Today, the business of the sugarbush, or iskigamizigan in the Ojibwe language, also has an element of Indigenous activism. Ojibwe bands in Wisconsin, Michigan and Minnesota have rights to hunt and gather on ceded lands affirmed by the Treaties of 1836, 1837 and 1842. Until the 1980s, however, after tribes sued for those rights in federal courts, both states prevented Ojibwe citizens from hunting, gathering or fishing off reservation lands. Iskigamizigan is an affirmation of treaty rights, emphasizing Ojibwe’s inherent rights to healthy sustainable subsistence foodstuffs.

Ojibwe have long relied on the maple tree - known as ininaatiq or man tree - for food and a product with which to barter or sell. Unlike white sugar, maple syrup and maple sugar contain riboflavin, thiamine, manganese, zinc, magnesium, calcium, iron, selenium and potassium. According to research funded by the Federation of Quebec Maple Producers, maple syrup also has antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties as well as polyphenols, which inhibit the enzymes responsible for converting carbohydrates to sugars, offering a possible method for managing Type 2 diabetes.

According to historical data collected by Paul DeMain of the Oneida and Ojibwe tribes, a typical Ojibwe family during the late 19th century produced around 1,000 pounds of maple sugar. Since about 40 gallons of sap are required to make one gallon of syrup or eight pounds of sugar, the family would have tapped about 900 trees. DeMain is an avid proponent of food sovereignty in which Native peoples use local resources to feed themselves.


But as settlers began to cut the forests for timber and states grew more restrictive toward tribal hunting, fishing and gathering rights, Ojibwe began to move away from the sugarbush, relying instead on store-bought sugar.

https://indiancountrytoday.com/.amp/news/sugarbush-brings-healing-sweet-maple-syrup?__twitter_impression=true&s=04


Because the settlers, wanted to basically live and survive, they took the lumber that the natives relied on for their sugar and always have, and due to this, had to rely on "The Other" sugar product which caused the people to become diabetic. When these people were using perfectly healthy sugars that didn't make them fat, and how and why they have a process to get that Sap and make it into Sugar....in turn the Settlers detrimented a peoples health and caused them sickness because they took all the Maple Trees for their own lumber, when the natives could've helped them and told them about the Maple Sugar and the settlers could've learned how to build homes without lumber from the Maple Trees.....
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #319 on: May 03, 2021, 01:19:42 PM »
I think you're spot on, Stadler.  It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better and if you don't believe that, just look at what's happening right now in the Republican Party.   Us Democrats have our fair share of issues but nothing anywhere even remotely close to this.


70% of Republicans actually believe Joe Biden was not the legitimate winner of the election.


7 out of every 10 Republicans!  And here's what's really scary about that.  This is only speculation but I am convinced that many -if not most- of the people who responded that way to the poll know deep down that it's a lie, they just don't care.  The way they see things is from now on they're just not going to accept any election outcome in which the Republican is the loser.


And there's a reason this is happening and it really ties in to the massive amount of racism that permeates the Republican Party now.  I mean, their entire platform for the election was "agree 100% with Trump on everything" and IT STILL IS! 


This is an incredibly dangerous and perilous time for the United States when you have one of the two major parties animated mostly by white grievance and fidelity to a racist criminal who incited a riot that threatened the lives of many in congress and the senate as well as the Vice President who the crowd was chanting about hanging. 


What's absolutely mind-boggling to me is none of this is hyperbole at all.  It's real.  We are in deep, deep shit and it's not all because of Donald Trump.  He's the most glaring symptom of the problem but the problem really ties back to this nationalist, nativist, white grievance-based anger-fueled, resentment-fueled movement that's happening in the Republican Party. 


It has seeped into all corners of the conservative movement to the point where conservatism has been completely twisted into the most clear and present danger to our Democracy since the Civil War.  It's no longer about small government, fiscal responsibility and personal responsibility.  It's now all about holding on to power by any means necessary in a very rapidly browning America and they are all absolutely petrified that the demographics of the country are changing and they're going to become a permanent minority.  But even in the minority they can do serious damage, look no further than Amy Coney Barrett sitting in a literally stolen SCOTUS seat.



Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #320 on: May 03, 2021, 01:24:25 PM »
Never, ever thought I would say this but I agree with George W. Bush  :eek


https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/03/politics/bush-gop-white-anglo-saxon-protestantism/index.html






Offline lonestar

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #321 on: May 03, 2021, 02:11:24 PM »
Never, ever thought I would say this but I agree with George W. Bush  :eek


https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/03/politics/bush-gop-white-anglo-saxon-protestantism/index.html

I've said that a few times these past couple of years, and I had to double take myself each time  :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #322 on: May 03, 2021, 02:47:33 PM »
I think you're spot on, Stadler.  It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better and if you don't believe that, just look at what's happening right now in the Republican Party.   Us Democrats have our fair share of issues but nothing anywhere even remotely close to this.


70% of Republicans actually believe Joe Biden was not the legitimate winner of the election.


7 out of every 10 Republicans!  And here's what's really scary about that.  This is only speculation but I am convinced that many -if not most- of the people who responded that way to the poll know deep down that it's a lie, they just don't care.  The way they see things is from now on they're just not going to accept any election outcome in which the Republican is the loser.


And there's a reason this is happening and it really ties in to the massive amount of racism that permeates the Republican Party now.  I mean, their entire platform for the election was "agree 100% with Trump on everything" and IT STILL IS! 


This is an incredibly dangerous and perilous time for the United States when you have one of the two major parties animated mostly by white grievance and fidelity to a racist criminal who incited a riot that threatened the lives of many in congress and the senate as well as the Vice President who the crowd was chanting about hanging. 


What's absolutely mind-boggling to me is none of this is hyperbole at all.  It's real.  We are in deep, deep shit and it's not all because of Donald Trump.  He's the most glaring symptom of the problem but the problem really ties back to this nationalist, nativist, white grievance-based anger-fueled, resentment-fueled movement that's happening in the Republican Party. 


It has seeped into all corners of the conservative movement to the point where conservatism has been completely twisted into the most clear and present danger to our Democracy since the Civil War.  It's no longer about small government, fiscal responsibility and personal responsibility.  It's now all about holding on to power by any means necessary in a very rapidly browning America and they are all absolutely petrified that the demographics of the country are changing and they're going to become a permanent minority.  But even in the minority they can do serious damage, look no further than Amy Coney Barrett sitting in a literally stolen SCOTUS seat.

I understand most of all of that,  I don't agree with all of it - what "damage" has Amy Coney Barrett (who didn't herself steal anything) caused? - but I understand it.   Except:   the leap to racism.   We're seeing the worst of the worst on the media.   We know the media is out for sensationalism and eyeballs.  Racism is a hot-button issue right now, and so it "mobilizes".  It "outrages".   I don't have a ton of friends I'd call conservative - most of my friends are Biden liberals, i.e. moderates  - but of those I do, not one jives with that stereotype of renegade conservative gun-toting racist maniac.   They might misunderstand "communism" or "socialism" (to a point that Dave makes a lot) but the outright "I Will Not Comply" racist?  I've not met them (and I think I would have, given that in the press, they don't seem shy).  I'm finding it hard to believe - even having relatives in Florida, having lived in Atlanta and Charlotte - that that's driving 70 million people.   I think, respectfully, you underestimate how someone can be scared of someone like an Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. 

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #323 on: May 04, 2021, 11:18:19 AM »
The damage is the type of politics that withholds a nomination hearing for a SCOTUS vacancy 9 months before a presidential election citing the proximity of the election as the rationale while a Democrat was in office and then cynically filling a SCOTUS seat 2 months before the very next presidential election while a Republican is in office.  To me, that kind of politics is damaging to the country because that's not how the system is supposed to work.  It's cynical and dishonest and hypocritical.  Basically what I see of the Republican party these days backing that lunatic, credibly-accused rapist, "individual #1" serial philanderer, porn-star banging and hush-money paying pathalogical lying, insurrection-inspiring former guy who can't accept that he lost the election by almost 8 million votes and pretty much the entire Republican party in our government following this insanity that the 2020 election was "fraudulent" (because they don't like the outcome) it's all been extremely damaging and it continues to this very moment.  It's a slow-moving evaporation of democracy happening before our eyes right here and now.  This country is in a serious crisis and it's all on the Republicans who are propping this fucking guy up.


I'm sorry but those are just the facts on the ground and no amount of veering into inconsequential tangential subjects is going to change any of it.  The former guy is literally trying to destroy our democracy and one of the two major parties is aiding and abetting in plain view.  I'd call that damaging, yes. 



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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #324 on: May 04, 2021, 02:23:40 PM »
The damage is the type of politics that withholds a nomination hearing for a SCOTUS vacancy 9 months before a presidential election citing the proximity of the election as the rationale while a Democrat was in office and then cynically filling a SCOTUS seat 2 months before the very next presidential election while a Republican is in office.  To me, that kind of politics is damaging to the country because that's not how the system is supposed to work.  It's cynical and dishonest and hypocritical.  Basically what I see of the Republican party these days backing that lunatic, credibly-accused rapist, "individual #1" serial philanderer, porn-star banging and hush-money paying pathalogical lying, insurrection-inspiring former guy who can't accept that he lost the election by almost 8 million votes and pretty much the entire Republican party in our government following this insanity that the 2020 election was "fraudulent" (because they don't like the outcome) it's all been extremely damaging and it continues to this very moment.  It's a slow-moving evaporation of democracy happening before our eyes right here and now.  This country is in a serious crisis and it's all on the Republicans who are propping this fucking guy up.


I'm sorry but those are just the facts on the ground and no amount of veering into inconsequential tangential subjects is going to change any of it.  The former guy is literally trying to destroy our democracy and one of the two major parties is aiding and abetting in plain view.  I'd call that damaging, yes.

I'm not going to disagree with anything you've said here Barry.....but just want to point out that the Democrats spent 4 years and invented reasons to try and impeach trump because they couldn't handle the fact that hilary lost. At every turn when it was proven that whatever 'case' they had against trump was false or flimsy they just pivoted to another sketchy batch of reasons why he should be impeached and/or not be the president.

I get that there are some grossly hypocritical things that the repubs have done and agree that it's a bunch of crap. As long as it remains clear and we don't lose sight of the fact that each side is full of a bunch of out of touch elitists who are out to do nothing but serve themselves and the hands that feed them. It's painfully obvious that our leadership does not care about the average American. For every instance that 'you' can provide of a republican doing this or that things that is horrific and equally disgusting behavior and/or deep can be produced for a democratic leader. The fingers we're pointing shouldn't be at each party....it should be at the entirety of congress for their actions or non actions that have taken place over the past half century or so.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #325 on: May 04, 2021, 04:44:36 PM »
Which reasons did the democrats invent in order to impeach Trump?
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #326 on: May 04, 2021, 05:02:15 PM »
Which reasons did the democrats invent in order to impeach Trump?
Yeah, that's kind of a bad narrative. I think everybody but the loyalest Trumpers know that he did exactly what he was accused of. The issue was if there was proof that he committed a crime. I may be wrong, but my recollection was that Gary was in the "of course he did it" camp, but also thought there was no basis for an impeachment. That's all way cool with me. I've got no problem with the argument, though I may disagree with the conclusion. However, the notion that it was made up, or a witch hunt makes no sense. If he does something quite clearly criminal are they just supposed to ignore it? Moving ahead with a prosecution is just sour grapes?

Kind of reminds me of OJ, now that I think about it. We all felt the guy deserved to be in prison. He eventually committed a crime that landed him there. Is our satisfaction of his imprisonment simply the result of sour grapes? Was the burglary allegation invented out of malice? The Vegas thing had nothing to do with the stabbings, yet I suspect OJ would be the first one to say it was a witch hunt, invented by the people who wanted to see him convicted for the murders. Sometimes people you can't stand do bad things and you get to nail them for it. The fact that they've made themselves eminently hateable certainly shouldn't change that.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #327 on: May 04, 2021, 05:38:20 PM »
For the life of me I've no idea why Trump didn't just pull a 'Few Good Men' Jack Nicholson moment on the first impeachment.

Prosecutor: "Did you suggest you'd withhold 'aid' to Ukraine if Zelensky didn't publicly announce an investigation into Biden?"

Trump: "YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID!"

Because whereas poor old Colonel Jessop got led away in handcuffs the GOP would have simply said "Meh, doesn't matter, we're acquitting him anyway". Lindsey Graham said even before the trial began, before a single piece of evidence had been presented, that he was going to acquit him (this is the same guy who loves to lecture Russia on how America is a "Country of Laws").

We've arrived at the part of American history where the most recent former president is saying the last election was "fraudulent" and his party is going along with it, because to promulgate this lie generates tens of millions a month in donations to the 'Save America' PAC, which is more than the RNC can generate with sensible facts. The impeachment trials were a farce, but not for the reason the MAGA folk think. They were a farce because if Trump had personally shot up a school the Republican-controlled Senate would still have acquitted him, safe in the knowledge that they can justify it by saying if he's removed from office then "radical left communists" are going to take over the country and confiscate your guns and your Jesus. Remember, these are the same people who took part in the absolutely shameful character assassination of Doug Jones in order to try and get Roy Moore elected. "Yeah he's a slimy racist homophobic tax-dodger with a catalogue of both adult and child sexual assault allegations against him, but he's a gun-toting Jesus-loving Christian, so let's destroy this other guy with made-up nonsense to keep us in power". I asked it at the time of the GOP: do you have even the slightest notion of how reprehensible you have to be in the eyes of voters that the people of Ala-freakin'-bama said enough is enough and elected a Democrat to the Senate over your guy Roy Moore? Did you not take that as some kind of sign that you were going way too far down the blind Trump-worship road?
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #328 on: May 04, 2021, 05:40:45 PM »
The ukranian thing was middle of the road impeachment, on par with lying to congress about a blow job. The Muller investigation, I mean that did produce multiple indictments and convictions, so there was something at the end of the trail of breadcrums.

The second impeachment...well...that should've been a slam dunk and shows just how deep in the shits the GOP is, the fact that they couldn't ditch donnie from the party after that shit show just proves to me that, as Dave has alluded to many times, Donnie's fundraising ability is more important to them than the sanctity of our democracy.


(Dave posted while I was typing this...so if his post refutes mine, go with him, he's much smarter in these circles than I)

Offline El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #329 on: May 04, 2021, 06:00:05 PM »
For the life of me I've no idea why Trump didn't just pull a 'Few Good Men' Jack Nicholson moment on the first impeachment.

Prosecutor: "Did you suggest you'd withhold 'aid' to Ukraine if Zelensky didn't publicly announce an investigation into Biden?"

Trump: "YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID!"

Because whereas poor old Colonel Jessop got led away in handcuffs the GOP would have simply said "Meh, doesn't matter, we're acquitting him anyway". Lindsey Graham said even before the trial began, before a single piece of evidence had been presented, that he was going to acquit him (this is the same guy who loves to lecture Russia on how America is a "Country of Laws").
And the reason this is true is because of the false narrative that it was just the sore loser democrats making up an excuse they can to get rid of him. Say it enough times and people will start to believe it, and enough people believed it at that point to immediately dismiss the allegations against him without a second thought. Conservative talking heads were saying it over and over before he even took office, getting an early start knowing that it would probably become necessary.
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Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #330 on: May 04, 2021, 06:03:51 PM »
The ukranian thing was middle of the road impeachment, on par with lying to congress about a blow job. The Muller investigation, I mean that did produce multiple indictments and convictions, so there was something at the end of the trail of breadcrums.

The second impeachment...well...that should've been a slam dunk and shows just how deep in the shits the GOP is, the fact that they couldn't ditch donnie from the party after that shit show just proves to me that, as Dave has alluded to many times, Donnie's fundraising ability is more important to them than the sanctity of our democracy.


(Dave posted while I was typing this...so if his post refutes mine, go with him, he's much smarter in these circles than I)
There are something like 10 different reasons why Trump should have been removed from office before the 2020 election (#1 being his Helsinki meeting with Putin at which he threw his country's intelligence agencies under the bus in front of the world's cameras). The Zelensky call is something like #6. The President of the United States does not have conversations like that with the 'leader' of a country like Ukraine. That was the first time in history a US president has tried to bargain with someone they have traditionally simply given orders to. Trump wanted a public announcement of an investigation into Biden at a time when Russia was wiping out Ukrainian forces in Luhansk and Donetsk and Zelensky was wondering if he'd even have a country left to lead in a month's time. It was a blatant attempt at blackmail, albeit a weak one (it was only ever a bluff, Trump was always going to give Zelensky the money no matter what he said, and the latter knew it).

What Trump did ought to have seen him convicted, because he put his own interests before his country's. In the grand scheme of his idiocy it's fairly low down the list, but it was grounds to remove him nonetheless. If a Democrat had done it Lindsey Graham would have given an ironclad case for why he or she was literally a traitor to American interests (and he'd have been right). But that isn't the America that exists anymore. It's not about the 'law' or 'American interests', it's about making sure your guys are the ones driving the gravy train no matter the cost.
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.

"China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very very large brain" - American President Donald Trump, 26th September 2018.

Offline lonestar

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #331 on: May 04, 2021, 07:16:15 PM »
The ukranian thing was middle of the road impeachment, on par with lying to congress about a blow job. The Muller investigation, I mean that did produce multiple indictments and convictions, so there was something at the end of the trail of breadcrums.

The second impeachment...well...that should've been a slam dunk and shows just how deep in the shits the GOP is, the fact that they couldn't ditch donnie from the party after that shit show just proves to me that, as Dave has alluded to many times, Donnie's fundraising ability is more important to them than the sanctity of our democracy.


(Dave posted while I was typing this...so if his post refutes mine, go with him, he's much smarter in these circles than I)
There are something like 10 different reasons why Trump should have been removed from office before the 2020 election (#1 being his Helsinki meeting with Putin at which he threw his country's intelligence agencies under the bus in front of the world's cameras). The Zelensky call is something like #6. The President of the United States does not have conversations like that with the 'leader' of a country like Ukraine. That was the first time in history a US president has tried to bargain with someone they have traditionally simply given orders to. Trump wanted a public announcement of an investigation into Biden at a time when Russia was wiping out Ukrainian forces in Luhansk and Donetsk and Zelensky was wondering if he'd even have a country left to lead in a month's time. It was a blatant attempt at blackmail, albeit a weak one (it was only ever a bluff, Trump was always going to give Zelensky the money no matter what he said, and the latter knew it).

What Trump did ought to have seen him convicted, because he put his own interests before his country's. In the grand scheme of his idiocy it's fairly low down the list, but it was grounds to remove him nonetheless. If a Democrat had done it Lindsey Graham would have given an ironclad case for why he or she was literally a traitor to American interests (and he'd have been right). But that isn't the America that exists anymore. It's not about the 'law' or 'American interests', it's about making sure your guys are the ones driving the gravy train no matter the cost.

I forgot about that one...living through that shit storm day to day put me into a political stockholm syndrome...where you couldn't really dig into bullshit A because bullshit B was flying around the corner to smack you in the face. The most fitting meme from the whole Trump era was the Picard 'Damage Report' one...each day was just a matter of wtf now....there are countless shitstorms that are just long forgotten. Remember the Inauguration fiasco when they raised 107 million for a shit performance schedule of artists my local county fair wouldn't stoop low enough to book?

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #332 on: May 04, 2021, 09:57:04 PM »
Which reasons did the democrats invent in order to impeach Trump?

While EB is right and I do think that trump most likely did something wrong somewhere along the lines......the dossier that kick started the entire first impeachment process what all fabrication and 1/4 truths. In other words.....invented. The Dems were talking impeachment before trump even won....and kept the ball rolling every step of the way with thin evidence and innuendo. There was never a real case against the guy......it only seemed that way thanks to a media that hated him just as much as the Dems did.

D bag of a person who had no clue how to be a leader......probably violate multiple laws a day.....but there was never substantial evidence brought to the surface. All media and dem driven hype.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #333 on: May 04, 2021, 10:02:24 PM »
Which reasons did the democrats invent in order to impeach Trump?

While EB is right and I do think that trump most likely did something wrong somewhere along the lines......the dossier that kick started the entire first impeachment process what all fabrication and 1/4 truths. In other words.....invented. The Dems were talking impeachment before trump even won....and kept the ball rolling every step of the way with thin evidence and innuendo. There was never a real case against the guy......it only seemed that way thanks to a media that hated him just as much as the Dems did.

D bag of a person who had no clue how to be a leader......probably violate multiple laws a day.....but there was never substantial evidence brought to the surface. All media and dem driven hype.
So I'll ask again, should the democrats have just ignored the whole thing? Decided "if we follow up on this we'll just look petty and vindictive, so I guess he gets a pass?" You agree that he very likely committed and impeachable act. So then what?
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #334 on: May 04, 2021, 11:21:24 PM »
Which reasons did the democrats invent in order to impeach Trump?

While EB is right and I do think that trump most likely did something wrong somewhere along the lines......the dossier that kick started the entire first impeachment process what all fabrication and 1/4 truths. In other words.....invented. The Dems were talking impeachment before trump even won....and kept the ball rolling every step of the way with thin evidence and innuendo. There was never a real case against the guy......it only seemed that way thanks to a media that hated him just as much as the Dems did.

D bag of a person who had no clue how to be a leader......probably violate multiple laws a day.....but there was never substantial evidence brought to the surface. All media and dem driven hype.
So I'll ask again, should the democrats have just ignored the whole thing? Decided "if we follow up on this we'll just look petty and vindictive, so I guess he gets a pass?" You agree that he very likely committed and impeachable act. So then what?

I think they should have realized how flawed their approach and evidence was and not drawn a line in the sand that blew away at the slightest breeze.....only to draw another then another.

They should have taken their time and gathered credible evidence, stuff that would stick and developed a rock solid argument. Instead they endlessly cried wolf to where when there was a smidge of credibility hidden in the echo people like me didn’t care enough to listen. I found their approach to be akin to whining babies for 4+ years. And that was even with understanding what a horrible person trump is......the way they droned on and on about any little thing trump may or may not have done was maddening and made it impossible to take them serious.

Now the shoes just on the other foot. Different babies crying but the same outcome.....they’re showing their asses and picking up where the Dems left off by making a mockery of a system of government that when treated with dignity and respect is a great system to govern a country by.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #335 on: May 05, 2021, 02:44:20 PM »
Wow, you actually believe all that?   ???


We are fucking doomed

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #336 on: May 05, 2021, 02:51:01 PM »
Wow, you actually believe all that?   ???


We are fucking doomed

Ehh. Edit.......never mind. I forgot that everything you say and believe is gospel.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #337 on: May 05, 2021, 03:10:04 PM »
I think we're doomed because honestly, Gary, it's like you're posting a word-for-word readout of Sean Hannity's show.  If you can refute anything I've posted in this thread go ahead and refute it.  But give me facts.  Don't give me "but the Democrats said mean things about Trump!"


















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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #338 on: May 05, 2021, 04:13:18 PM »
I think we're doomed because honestly, Gary, it's like you're posting a word-for-word readout of Sean Hannity's show. If you can refute anything I've posted in this thread go ahead and refute it.  But give me facts.  Don't give me "but the Democrats said mean things about Trump!"

That's the thing though Barry.....I don't need to. It's proven that the dossier that was used as THE reason for the entire start of the russian probe was defunct and a bunch of crap. Furthermore......I learned my lesson long ago in this subforum that I could spend three hours crafting a post and linking this or that to 'refute' what you say with it only to be dismissed in a matter of a sentence or two. I could just as easily say the stuff you say is word for word from a Don Lemon broadcast or Bernie Sanders rally. What's it matter? You aren't going to drive me off of my beliefs and nor I you.
 
While I may have a vastly different life view than you or other 'liberal' minded people.....I'm self aware enough to know that the way I think or how I raise my kids or the way I handle myself day to day and treat people is FAR from 'dooming' the country. If anything what I do as a parent and a citizen should provide hope......but, you go ahead and keep making asshole comments.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #339 on: May 05, 2021, 04:21:26 PM »
Yeah, I'll suggest to you both that today is probably not the day to be at each other.  :lol
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #340 on: May 05, 2021, 04:40:03 PM »
Which reasons did the democrats invent in order to impeach Trump?

While EB is right and I do think that trump most likely did something wrong somewhere along the lines......the dossier that kick started the entire first impeachment process what all fabrication and 1/4 truths. In other words.....invented. The Dems were talking impeachment before trump even won....and kept the ball rolling every step of the way with thin evidence and innuendo. There was never a real case against the guy......it only seemed that way thanks to a media that hated him just as much as the Dems did.

D bag of a person who had no clue how to be a leader......probably violate multiple laws a day.....but there was never substantial evidence brought to the surface. All media and dem driven hype.
So I'll ask again, should the democrats have just ignored the whole thing? Decided "if we follow up on this we'll just look petty and vindictive, so I guess he gets a pass?" You agree that he very likely committed and impeachable act. So then what?

I think they should have realized how flawed their approach and evidence was and not drawn a line in the sand that blew away at the slightest breeze.....only to draw another then another.

They should have taken their time and gathered credible evidence, stuff that would stick and developed a rock solid argument. Instead they endlessly cried wolf to where when there was a smidge of credibility hidden in the echo people like me didn’t care enough to listen. I found their approach to be akin to whining babies for 4+ years. And that was even with understanding what a horrible person trump is......the way they droned on and on about any little thing trump may or may not have done was maddening and made it impossible to take them serious.

Now the shoes just on the other foot. Different babies crying but the same outcome.....they’re showing their asses and picking up where the Dems left off by making a mockery of a system of government that when treated with dignity and respect is a great system to govern a country by.
My take is that there are certain crimes that are, in essence, not crimes simply because they cannot be proven. It's illegal for a congressman to take money in exchange for a vote. We all know that. We all know that they do it anyway, we just can't prove it. Does that mean that we don't try to stop it? Do we decline to prosecute when we see it happen because it's not going to be provable? There was credible evidence that Trump had committed an impeachable offense. I still don't get what you think should have been done.

Also, I have no idea what the Steel Dossier has to do with the impeachment. Your original point was that the whole thing was a myth. It was a fabrication. I still can't get to why you think that. Mishandled? Sure. Politically motivated? Probably. Invented? Come again?
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Offline lonestar

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #341 on: May 05, 2021, 05:12:35 PM »
Yeah, I'll suggest to you both that today is probably not the day to be at each other.  :lol

 :lol

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #342 on: May 06, 2021, 10:19:44 AM »
The damage is the type of politics that withholds a nomination hearing for a SCOTUS vacancy 9 months before a presidential election citing the proximity of the election as the rationale while a Democrat was in office and then cynically filling a SCOTUS seat 2 months before the very next presidential election while a Republican is in office.  To me, that kind of politics is damaging to the country because that's not how the system is supposed to work.  It's cynical and dishonest and hypocritical.  Basically what I see of the Republican party these days backing that lunatic, credibly-accused rapist, "individual #1" serial philanderer, porn-star banging and hush-money paying pathalogical lying, insurrection-inspiring former guy who can't accept that he lost the election by almost 8 million votes and pretty much the entire Republican party in our government following this insanity that the 2020 election was "fraudulent" (because they don't like the outcome) it's all been extremely damaging and it continues to this very moment.  It's a slow-moving evaporation of democracy happening before our eyes right here and now.  This country is in a serious crisis and it's all on the Republicans who are propping this fucking guy up.


I'm sorry but those are just the facts on the ground and no amount of veering into inconsequential tangential subjects is going to change any of it.  The former guy is literally trying to destroy our democracy and one of the two major parties is aiding and abetting in plain view.  I'd call that damaging, yes.

For the record, you say that a lot, and I'm not looking to 'veer into inconsequential tangential subjects".  If that information is enough for you, so be it, I'm never going to convince you otherwise (nor do I want to).  For others, including me, it's not determinative. Those are SOME of the facts on the ground, not ALL of the facts on the ground.  We can't ignore that which doesn't fit the worldview.  It doesn't stand alone.   Biden first proposed McConnell's strategy of "delay" (and for the record, I have a problem with Mitch playing both sides of the coin myself; I agree with you there), so it's not limited to "Republicans".   I respect your point of view, but I also think it's overly harsh to Republicans and overly forgiving to Democrats, many of whom do the exact same things you call "damaging".   

That's not "whataboutism".   That's the simple recognition that if it's a problem, it's a problem no matter who does it.   And if it's only a problem when SOME people do it, it's not really a problem.  I've given cites for this already:  about 50% of Democrats had the same feeling about the 2016 election, and many are STILL on the "not my President!" bandwagon, convinced he was installed by the Rooskies, even though there's about the same amount of evidence that the Russians changed vote totals in 2016 as there was that Democrats changed vote totals in 2020.   

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #343 on: May 06, 2021, 10:32:34 AM »
The ukranian thing was middle of the road impeachment, on par with lying to congress about a blow job. The Muller investigation, I mean that did produce multiple indictments and convictions, so there was something at the end of the trail of breadcrums.

The second impeachment...well...that should've been a slam dunk and shows just how deep in the shits the GOP is, the fact that they couldn't ditch donnie from the party after that shit show just proves to me that, as Dave has alluded to many times, Donnie's fundraising ability is more important to them than the sanctity of our democracy.


(Dave posted while I was typing this...so if his post refutes mine, go with him, he's much smarter in these circles than I)
There are something like 10 different reasons why Trump should have been removed from office before the 2020 election (#1 being his Helsinki meeting with Putin at which he threw his country's intelligence agencies under the bus in front of the world's cameras). The Zelensky call is something like #6. The President of the United States does not have conversations like that with the 'leader' of a country like Ukraine. That was the first time in history a US president has tried to bargain with someone they have traditionally simply given orders to. Trump wanted a public announcement of an investigation into Biden at a time when Russia was wiping out Ukrainian forces in Luhansk and Donetsk and Zelensky was wondering if he'd even have a country left to lead in a month's time. It was a blatant attempt at blackmail, albeit a weak one (it was only ever a bluff, Trump was always going to give Zelensky the money no matter what he said, and the latter knew it).

What Trump did ought to have seen him convicted, because he put his own interests before his country's. In the grand scheme of his idiocy it's fairly low down the list, but it was grounds to remove him nonetheless. If a Democrat had done it Lindsey Graham would have given an ironclad case for why he or she was literally a traitor to American interests (and he'd have been right). But that isn't the America that exists anymore. It's not about the 'law' or 'American interests', it's about making sure your guys are the ones driving the gravy train no matter the cost.


But don't gloss over that it's not as one-sided as this narrative makes it sound. I too agree that Trump SHOULD have been impeached, but it was an impossible scenario.    Adam Schiff LIED UNDER OATH during the proceedings. That's not an opinion, but a fact.   Why throw a bone to the other side when you're already behind the 8-ball?  And your scenario, yeah, you're probably right about the milquetoast Graham, but don't forget the other 99 Senators: had that been a Democrat, there would have been the same shenanigans pointing the other way.  Do you honestly see Chuck Schumer or Dick Blumenthal putting their party aside for the "good of the people"?  The three Supreme Court nominations show that.   There is no credible reason why ALL THREE were party line confirmations, when the ONLY question being asked is "are you qualified to be on the court"?   Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Barrett are not responsible for HOW their names got up there, only that they were, and yet the votes were a statement on something unrelated to the question at hand.   

We have a problem of divisiveness; we have a problem not of truth, per se, but of party, where the will of the people is less important than the position of the representative doing the voting.   I don't know how we necessarily break that, but unless and until it does, we're in this quagmire for the long haul.    I get party line votes on controversial, cutting edge legislation, but when the simple management of the country is being done on a party-line vote basis, we're in deep trouble.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #344 on: May 06, 2021, 01:27:50 PM »
You're posting opinion articles in support of facts?  Really?  :lol   Then saying it's not an opinion, it's a fact?  lol

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #345 on: May 06, 2021, 01:30:17 PM »
Also, no offense but this is exactly the kind of whataboutism I referred to before.


"Yeah, Trump is bad but WHAT ABOUT ADAM SCHIFF!!! hmmm?????"


Holy misdirection, batman. 


Even if Schiff DID lie, does it diminish or somehow negate Trump's crimes?  No, it does not.  End of story.  It's just whataboutism 

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #346 on: May 07, 2021, 08:51:53 AM »
Also, no offense but this is exactly the kind of whataboutism I referred to before.


"Yeah, Trump is bad but WHAT ABOUT ADAM SCHIFF!!! hmmm?????"


Holy misdirection, batman. 


Even if Schiff DID lie, does it diminish or somehow negate Trump's crimes?  No, it does not.  End of story.  It's just whataboutism

Barry, please.  If you don't agree, that's fine, but please don't dismiss the argument on ad hominem grounds.  If we're just talking about "how bad Trump is" in a vacuum, you're right, it's useless information.  But we're NOT.  We're talking about - or at least I'M talking about - the nation, what's good for the nation, what's bad for the nation, and how we get out of this morass we're in.  Trump lied, no doubt, and Schiff's lying doesn't excuse that.  But it's BOTH MEN'S lying that is dangerous to the country, and that's what I'm getting at.

It's not "whataboutism" to question why "lying" is bad for one guy and not another.  If lying to the people for personal gain is bad, it's bad regardless of what party is doing the lying.   It's not "whataboutism" to ask why being divisive is bad for ONE side, but not the other.  If calling a subdemographic of our country "names" is bad, it's bad whether it's "criminals" or "deplorables".   You've freely admitted to being on a side - and seriously, I admire your passion and commitment to it - but you have to understand that not everyone looks at it that way.  I certainly don't.  Sure I have preferences in terms of what I'd like to see happen, but if I'm pointing to behavior I don't like, invariably I can find examples of that from all across the political spectrum.  I'm not "titting" your "tat", I'm pointing out broader examples that don't support your theory of "sides".

You should know this; pointing at the "other side" and lecturing them on how bad they are is almost never a path to a solution.   Very, very few people respond to "you're an ignorant racist bigot, and I'm smarter than you and morally superior, too!" with a "wow, you know, you're right! Tell me what to do next, and I'll do it!"    The American psyche is one of "Fuck you, I'll tell YOU what's what!".  That's what we celebrate, that's what we honor.  Watch any reality TV show, watch any interview with a pro athlete; the symbol of power and success is individuality, not kowtowing to the norm (not to mention, a ton of swearing). 

I don't view our problems as starting with Trump, or, really, "starting" anywhere.  They are a progression, a cycle of reactions from what came before.  Better or worse (and I'm not suggesting that he did anything BAD) but Trump was a REACTION to that which came before.   Trump didn't pop out of the ether because all of a sudden almost 10 million Obama voters turned "racist bigots".  They were voting out of self-interest and didn't like where they sat after 8 years of special interests and identity politics, no matter how necessary you feel those advancements were.   People in the middle of the country didn't give a RAT'S ASS what bathroom someone in NC used while their jobs were being shipped to Mexico, and their healthcare costs were going up while their outcomes were decreasing at an alarming rate (our healthcare outcomes are pretty crappy when compared to other, comparable countries.  Just like Obama was a national, compassionate reaction to what was perceived by many to be an aggressive, war-time Presidency (rightly or wrongly, I say that to observe, not judge), which in turn was a reaction to what many perceived as a aggressively youthful, aggressively reckless, Presidency before that, which in turn....    These are simplistic generalizations made to make a point, but I think you'll get the gist of what I'm saying.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 09:12:05 AM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #347 on: May 07, 2021, 09:09:37 AM »
You're posting opinion articles in support of facts?  Really?  :lol   Then saying it's not an opinion, it's a fact?  lol

The opinion is about the CONSEQUENCES of that lying, and uses the FACTS of the lying to support that.

Nonetheless, there are numerous factual references to Schiff's lying (which, in part, he admits to)

There's also the fundamental mistruth, that Schiff was essentially, in part, trying to impeach Trump for exercising his rights to due process under the Constitution.   Schiff, repeatedly under oath, maintained that "As part of this impeachment inquiry, the committee’s undertaking the investigation served subpoenas seeking documents and testimony deemed vital to the inquiry for various executive branch agencies and offices and current and former officials. That has been proved. In response without lawful cause or excuse, President Trump directed executive branch agencies, offices and officials not to comply with those subpoenas."  This is from the transcript of his closing remarks.  Later, in that same transcript, he said again, "President Trump abused the powers of his high office through the following means. Number one, directing the White House to defy a lawful subpoena by withholding the production of documents sought therein by the committees... Directing other executive branch agencies and offices to defy lawful subpoenas and withhold the production of documents and records from the committees in response to which the Department of State, the Office of Management Budget, Department of Energy and Department of Defense refused to produce a single record or document."

Those are lies.  At the time Schiff said that, Trump was lawfully and within his rights challenging those subpoenas in court.  The Court hearing that challenge had not weighed in yet, and determined whether Trump had to comply or not.   In fact, later, Trump won a lower court decision on that very issue.  That's akin to arresting someone for not letting the police in their house without a warrant, or arresting them for challenging the efficacy of a warrant.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #348 on: May 09, 2021, 05:01:25 PM »
I’m sure most are familiar with this quote by now:

Quote
In his 1963 letter from a Birmingham jail, King wrote: “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.’”

it’s amazing that King wrote that in 1963 and you could basically use it word for word as a reply on the internet in 2021. 

Offline jammindude

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #349 on: May 09, 2021, 05:55:17 PM »
I’m sure most are familiar with this quote by now:

Quote
In his 1963 letter from a Birmingham jail, King wrote: “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.’”

it’s amazing that King wrote that in 1963 and you could basically use it word for word as a reply on the internet in 2021.

In fact, it often is...
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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