Author Topic: Racism and Privilege  (Read 14207 times)

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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #280 on: March 22, 2021, 09:39:57 AM »
I can dismiss the bad day comment as just a small town sheriff not being a trained public spokesman.

It's possible the issue might be in that some people heard the comment from Sheriff Gomer as "He's having a bad day after killing 8 women" (no shit, Sherlock!), vs some hearing it as "He's having a bad day, so he went and killed 8 women".  The latter implies his 'bad day' was triggered by something, and that trigger is what finally put him over the edge.  The latter former (to me) suggests a crass/smug/off-the-cuff/callous comment.

Haven't read the long ass Heather whoever post (though I have read some of hers in the past from your FB feed, Tricia), but will peruse it later.
Was it your intention to refer to the latter twice? Either way, I just don't see crassness or smugness in that. If he'd said "he has good days and bad days, and yesterday was a really bad day," would that have made a difference? Because that's certainly the way I interpreted it, and unless you're looking for an angle, I'm not sure why'd somebody would jump to a different interpretation. If the general public's understanding of the Enlgish language leads it to quickly infer "oh, he was just having a bad day so he went out and slaughtered 8 people, no big deal," then this country is far, far more fucked up than even I already think it is.

Nope... brain fart.  fix'd above.  These kinds of things are often on the heels of something 'triggering' the aggressor, and (not that I think this is what Sherrif Gomer was saying), insinuating this guy's "bad day" was because of that trigger would be mildly palatable.

Was just looking for a way as to why people are viewin gthe 'bad day' comment as a big deal / not a big deal.

Because they need something of outrage to bolster their world view?   I was at a small get-together this weekend for a Uconn Basketball game (yes, social distanced, and with masks), and a good friend of mine was there and she was all up in arms about the "bad day" comment.  I love her, I would trust her with my life, and she's married to one of my oldest and dearest friends, but she's not the brightest bulb on the tree and tends to lead with her heart on matters political.  For her (and she would never admit this), this is something to be outraged about and to use as an example.

Now if she tends to lead with her heart on matters political. Imagine now how many people are like her. And then, add in the news playing on the Heartstrings and Emotions...

That's what I am getting at. The news knows this, and they exploit it and have been doing this. Rage, Sadness, and Fear are their holy trinity to get viewers to watch the news. And people like her eat it up, and then get sad, then get mad, and then go on Twitter and Facebook and then we have The Protests in the streets.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #281 on: March 22, 2021, 09:54:34 AM »
protests arenít just an irrational emotional reaction, thatís an incredible flippant reduction.  Thereís case by case differences. 

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #282 on: March 22, 2021, 10:01:00 AM »
protests arenít just an irrational emotional reaction, thatís an incredible flippant reduction.  Thereís case by case differences.

Well duh...

I am talking about protests, like the ones you see on Social Media, and Twitter. But also, SOME protests do start with the heartstring pulling. George Floyd protests and also these Asian Minority ones.

Also, we can't forget that Asians can also be racist themselves, not all, but some, I've seen it at certain restaurants...Also...You do not know what they are saying behind your back in their language. They could be saying it to your face and you wouldn't even know it.  :lol

See, what that did was pull the Heartstrings of the Asian People by the news focusing only on these Asian Women. With no mention of the type of work they're in, or how these businesses are mainly Asian ran businesses.

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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #283 on: March 22, 2021, 10:07:23 AM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #284 on: March 22, 2021, 10:15:40 AM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

And it's not because of Trump either. Once people knew this virus came from Wuhan. You have people that immediately did this regardless.

But in reality, it has always been happening. It's just now being shown through the media and the news. Only because of this they mention it.

Racism is very prevalent. But I don't like calling it Racism, as every race can be capable of being racists themselves. POC are treating White people with Racists idealings now.

I like to use the term Prejudiced. Because it's not racial, it's universal and it includes the other types of Prejudice that can be used including based on Gender, Body and the many other ways you can exclude and insult someone.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #285 on: March 22, 2021, 10:32:09 AM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.

As you yourself (I think correctly) stated:  "Thereís case by case differences."   Many of the reactions to this horrific event are emotional in nature, and as I've tried to point out - and you seem to agree - "thatís an incredible flippant reduction".


Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #286 on: March 22, 2021, 01:00:47 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.
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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #287 on: March 22, 2021, 01:24:41 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.

I didnít imply otherwise, but Iím not sure what pointing this out is supposed to accomplish in this context other than to downplay a situation all the different asian community advocacy groups are (and have been for a year)desperately trying to bring attention to. 

Online El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #288 on: March 22, 2021, 01:29:01 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.

I didnít imply otherwise, but Iím not sure what pointing this out is supposed to accomplish in this context other than to downplay a situation all the different asian community advocacy groups are (and have been for a year)desperately trying to bring attention to.
It's to point out that folks now are exploiting something only tangentially related for their own gain, and in the process diminishing the very important thing the Asians have been saying all along. I'm on their side here, but misrepresenting various incidences to boost their cause only serves to piss me off.
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #289 on: March 22, 2021, 02:00:34 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.

I didnít imply otherwise, but Iím not sure what pointing this out is supposed to accomplish in this context other than to downplay a situation all the different asian community advocacy groups are (and have been for a year)desperately trying to bring attention to.

Let me break it to you. I bet you not all Asian people agree with those advocacy groups. The same as how not all Black people agree with BLM.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

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Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #290 on: March 22, 2021, 02:09:31 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.

I didnít imply otherwise, but Iím not sure what pointing this out is supposed to accomplish in this context other than to downplay a situation all the different asian community advocacy groups are (and have been for a year)desperately trying to bring attention to.

Let me break it to you. I bet you not all Asian people agree with those advocacy groups. The same as how not all Black people agree with BLM.

what does that change about anything?  The BLM protests are still justified and so is the attention to anti asian violence. 

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #291 on: March 22, 2021, 02:11:06 PM »
And here's an interesting ideal happening...As Tim Pool reports...

https://youtu.be/e2qdCC0jHUg?t=968

Here's the actual Tweet of it...

"Really wild stuff downtown. A Stop Asian Hate rally is clashing with a Pro-Uighur drive by. The pro-Uighur group is shouting ďFó China!Ē The Asian rally is responding by calling them ďracist.Ē"

https://twitter.com/NicXTempore/status/1373691318208245764


Which led to this...

"The UAA's reckless drive-by has caused severe backlash against Uyghurs. I want to clarify that we don't condone racism and Uyghurs / East Turkistanis are NOT "anti-Asian" nor are they "racist." Our struggle is against China's racist and genocidal government / CCP regime."

https://twitter.com/SalihHudayar/status/1373835152300904450
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #292 on: March 23, 2021, 12:22:33 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.

I didnít imply otherwise, but Iím not sure what pointing this out is supposed to accomplish in this context other than to downplay a situation all the different asian community advocacy groups are (and have been for a year)desperately trying to bring attention to.

It's meant to state facts. We shouldn't be worried about whether FACTS "downplay" an agenda or cause.  That's part of the reason we're in this friggin' mess to begin with.   Just because a cause is, in theory or in practice, just, doesn't mean that all rules go out the window, or anything goes.    Put more bluntly:  it serves no one, least of all the Asian American community, to hitch their wagon to the most convenient star.  If THIS case is about Asian-American violence, then that's one thing, but it doesn't ultimately help the cause to blindly lump everything together because it "sells" better.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #293 on: March 23, 2021, 12:24:51 PM »
the rise in anti asian violence is very real

Well documented.   That doesn't, though, mean that every incident of violence that happens to involve an Asian or Asian American is race-related.
Indeed.

I didnít imply otherwise, but Iím not sure what pointing this out is supposed to accomplish in this context other than to downplay a situation all the different asian community advocacy groups are (and have been for a year)desperately trying to bring attention to.

Let me break it to you. I bet you not all Asian people agree with those advocacy groups. The same as how not all Black people agree with BLM.

what does that change about anything?  The BLM protests are still justified and so is the attention to anti asian violence.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your direct reference, no not ALL the BLM protests were justified.  The peaceful, lawful ones were, but the ones that turned violent or turned into riots, I think might fall outside that blanket.  For the same reasons that have been put forth here by various people.

Offline XeRocks81

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #294 on: April 04, 2021, 11:32:51 AM »
not sure where to put this

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/03/us/anti-asian-attacks.html?smtyp=cur&smid=tw-nytimes

A detailed documenting of the rise in anti-asian violence. 

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #295 on: April 13, 2021, 04:31:18 PM »
You know...I think it's time we really should define what is "Racism"....and the difference between "Racism" and "Prejudice". Because the way I see it, people do not know the difference between the two.

First off, what is "Racism"?

I can't use the dictionary term for it because...according to Websters...

Quote
Racism appears to be a word of recent origin, with no citations currently known that would suggest the word was in use prior to the early 20th century. But the fact that the word is fairly new does not prove that the concept of racism did not exist in the distant past. Things may have words to describe them before they exist (spaceship, for instance, has been in use since the 19th century, well before the rocket-fired vessels were invented), and things may exist for a considerable time before they are given names (t-shirt does not appear in print until the 20th century, although the article of clothing existed prior to 1900).

Dictionaries are often treated as the final arbiter in arguments over a wordís meaning, but they are not always well suited for settling disputes. The lexicographerís role is to explain how words are (or have been) actually used, not how some may feel that they should be used, and they say nothing about the intrinsic nature of the thing named by a word, much less the significance it may have for individuals. When discussing concepts like racism, therefore, it is prudent to recognize that quoting from a dictionary is unlikely to either mollify or persuade the person with whom one is arguing.

So what is "Racism"?

...

What is "Prejudice"?

According to Webster

Quote
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights
especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2a(1): preconceived judgment or opinion
(2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b: an instance of such judgment or opinion
c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

So what is "Racism"?

"Racism" is "Prejudice", albeit only focused on one's race.

See, cause for me, there isn't as much "Racism" and declaring someone Racist is racist in itself, ONLY if you do not know that the person actually despises people of that race, and you would know. Because they want nothing to do with that race, and will do anything to not be around that race, some people actually leave jobs or other businesses because that race is there.

That is Racism....Any Kind of Racial Supremacy is Racism.

"Prejudice" is where you don't like someone regardless if they are of any race, and sometimes they just happen to be of a certain race, but that does not necessarily mean they despise that race, and want nothing to do with them at all. It's being prejudice because of a racial stereotype, which not everyone in that race does. Expecting all people of that race to fit into these "Racial Stereotypes" is Racist in itself.

I only bring this up, because you have people wanting "Unity" and "Equal Treatment" yet, end up doing exactly the same thing being done to them, basically ending up wearing the same shoes.

And those people are declaring "Racism" while wearing those shoes....That does not help with "Unity" and "Equal Treatment".
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Offline chknptpie

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #296 on: April 13, 2021, 07:14:46 PM »
So question for you Ben. Reading your post above, it's really individual/person focused. What if you take the person out of it. Do you think a system or a construct can be racist? I'm being vague here for a reason and not giving any examples. I'm truly curious your thoughts.

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #297 on: April 14, 2021, 09:23:17 AM »
So question for you Ben. Reading your post above, it's really individual/person focused. What if you take the person out of it. Do you think a system or a construct can be racist? I'm being vague here for a reason and not giving any examples. I'm truly curious your thoughts.

Yes it can. And also, that's where Sovereignty comes into play. Does a country/Nation have the right to control their country/people how they see fit? Yes, and no one can do anything but the people. You could try and be the hero and fix that Nation, but then that's what starts Wars, because you are now controlling what that Nation can and can't do, and that is seen as a violation of their Sovereignty, and Freedom to rule as a Sovereign Nation.

There'e lots of examples of leaders/dictators/tyrants using someone's race and exposing it for their own gains.

The way I see it....The current system the world lives under is dominated by White European Culture. Everything that is known today is based off the teaching of these cultures...Greek, Roman, Italian, Irish, British, even the Indigenous Cultures of Europe, this is how we have our Holiday Traditions, like The Christmas Tree and The Jack-o'-lantern.

Yet, other cultural ideas and knowledge gets ignored...

These are the cultures that inhabit America. America is one big melting pot of many cultures that need to find a way to respect one another. By allowing each other to pray and worship however one sees fit. It's when one tries to be the all knowing religion and culture is when it'll be a culture war, rather than a race war.

And actually, The Culture War is what I think now it actually is, rather than a race war, it's a Culture War. Because the current main dominant culture isn't respecting the other cultures and self-declared itself as the all knowing culture that is the true faith, while ignoring the other cultures exist, and won't listen to them. These cultures have knowledge that can help the world.

What people see is this culture is in fact bringing Destruction to the planet. Yes, this culture has good things and ideasz it's just that they're not using it in the beneficial good way, they're using it in the destructive bad way. Which is why the Earth is sick and causing Global Warming or Climate Change. It's feeling the effects of our destructive ways.

So in turn... it's more of a Culture thing than Race. Because this "White Culture" is the system we, and the world, follow and obey too...
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #298 on: April 19, 2021, 09:46:18 AM »
Racism is a subset of prejudice, as is homophobia, classism, xenophobia, and any number of other viewpoints.  They are each prejudice.

All racism is prejudice, but not all prejudice is racist.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #299 on: April 19, 2021, 02:30:43 PM »
So question for you Ben. Reading your post above, it's really individual/person focused. What if you take the person out of it. Do you think a system or a construct can be racist? I'm being vague here for a reason and not giving any examples. I'm truly curious your thoughts.

The problem with the concept of "systemic racism" is in the limited number of ways it can be measured.  If African Americans are 13.5% of the population, but in a given year, 7% of college graduates are African American, that does not, in and of itself, confer "systemic racism".  There are too many variables that might account for that (some that themselves may have racist components) to draw a conclusion.  Yet, that seems to be more and more the norm. 

Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #300 on: April 19, 2021, 03:22:41 PM »
So question for you Ben. Reading your post above, it's really individual/person focused. What if you take the person out of it. Do you think a system or a construct can be racist? I'm being vague here for a reason and not giving any examples. I'm truly curious your thoughts.

The problem with the concept of "systemic racism" is in the limited number of ways it can be measured.  If African Americans are 13.5% of the population, but in a given year, 7% of college graduates are African American, that does not, in and of itself, confer "systemic racism".  There are too many variables that might account for that (some that themselves may have racist components) to draw a conclusion.  Yet, that seems to be more and more the norm.

It can get to a point where the "systemic racism" of one minority race turns a tide and the minority becomes the majority which the majority race then gets treated to "systemic racism"

That's when you end up wearing the same shoes. And that's a thing to be weary of in regards to bringing a solution for "Systemic Racism".

I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #301 on: April 27, 2021, 08:51:31 AM »
So question for you Ben. Reading your post above, it's really individual/person focused. What if you take the person out of it. Do you think a system or a construct can be racist? I'm being vague here for a reason and not giving any examples. I'm truly curious your thoughts.

The problem with the concept of "systemic racism" is in the limited number of ways it can be measured.  If African Americans are 13.5% of the population, but in a given year, 7% of college graduates are African American, that does not, in and of itself, confer "systemic racism".  There are too many variables that might account for that (some that themselves may have racist components) to draw a conclusion.  Yet, that seems to be more and more the norm.


The fact that a concept is difficult to measure in no way diminishes or invalidates its existence.  I'm reminded of this the words of Justice Potter Stewart in Jacobellis vs Ohio:


Quote from: WikiPedia
the Constitution protected all obscenity except "hard-core pornography". He wrote, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."


Institutional racism exists. That is a fact, not an opinion.


 I think the degree to which it permeates our society -especially in the southern part of the USA- is certainly debatable but I think it's a bigger problem than most on the political right would care to admit.  That is an opinion, not fact.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #302 on: April 27, 2021, 09:17:39 AM »
Not for nothing, and I am not saying this to be confrontational, but as a lawyer, who has studied many (not all, not even most) of the larger decisions - including the one you cite - that is one of my least favorite opinions.   It's clever, but it's not indicative, and it doesn't apply to you and me.  We're not arbiters.  We're living it.  That standard in real life is like "tie goes the runner" in a sandlot baseball game.

Personally, though, I think you're probably mostly right.  But I think the reality is more moderate:  I think while the further right you go, it's probably more and more underplayed as you say, but I think the converse is true as well: the further you go on the left, the more and more it's overplayed.

I think it EXISTS.  That's not up for discussion, but the degree is.   I do not think it is as pervasive as some think.  We've come to a point in our society where there's almost no such thing as "failure"; bias is assumed unless proven otherwise, and that's an impossible standard to meet (that's where the measurement comes in; not the existence but the degree).  There are other factors that need - if we're interested in FACT - to be considered.   I've posted articles/studies from Harvard - hardly "right wing", hardly pushing an agenda - that question the singular role of pure race in the rash of police killings.  Utterly ignored, and overlooked, because it doesn't serve the agenda.   I don't say any of this to support racism, to excuse it, to tolerate it, to condone it, even though given the national narrative - and the requirement that we reject, protest, intolerate - that's going to ring hollow with some people (oh well).   I say this because I'm a firm believer that it is foolish to try to solve a problem if you can't be honest about the root of the problem.    We just don't seem to be able to be honest about our dialogue on race.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #303 on: April 27, 2021, 10:31:13 AM »
Not for nothing, and I am not saying this to be confrontational, but as a lawyer, who has studied many (not all, not even most) of the larger decisions - including the one you cite - that is one of my least favorite opinions.   It's clever, but it's not indicative, and it doesn't apply to you and me.  We're not arbiters.  We're living it.  That standard in real life is like "tie goes the runner" in a sandlot baseball game.

Personally, though, I think you're probably mostly right.  But I think the reality is more moderate:  I think while the further right you go, it's probably more and more underplayed as you say, but I think the converse is true as well: the further you go on the left, the more and more it's overplayed.

I think it EXISTS.  That's not up for discussion, but the degree is.   I do not think it is as pervasive as some think.  We've come to a point in our society where there's almost no such thing as "failure"; bias is assumed unless proven otherwise, and that's an impossible standard to meet (that's where the measurement comes in; not the existence but the degree).  There are other factors that need - if we're interested in FACT - to be considered.   I've posted articles/studies from Harvard - hardly "right wing", hardly pushing an agenda - that question the singular role of pure race in the rash of police killings.  Utterly ignored, and overlooked, because it doesn't serve the agenda.   I don't say any of this to support racism, to excuse it, to tolerate it, to condone it, even though given the national narrative - and the requirement that we reject, protest, intolerate - that's going to ring hollow with some people (oh well).   I say this because I'm a firm believer that it is foolish to try to solve a problem if you can't be honest about the root of the problem.    We just don't seem to be able to be honest about our dialogue on race.


These bolded parts are really interesting points about all of the Race discussion...

The assumption that one fits into the stereotype that was created of that Race. I should know because people actually think us Natives all live in teepees and say "How" and care about the environment. Yes, that is whom SOME of the natives are and we are supposed to be caring about the environment, but in Reality, we eat shit poop and pee the same things, because History (I won't get into all of that here). It's the assumption of fitting into an already preconceived assumption of who one is as a human.

We know who we are, we know what we have. It's just that you are not listening to what we are trying to comprehend to you. Instead, you go and assume our responsibilities and whom we are to better fit into whom you assume us to be, because it's not what you were taught whom we are.


And no race is free of any prejudice....That's one of the myriad flaws of humanity.

Black people treat Asians like shit....Asians treat blacks like shit.....Natives Treat whites like shit....

See how focusing on how one's skin tone is, sounds so stupid and causes nothing but chaos and division. That's all focusing on ones skin tone does.

To stop racism, we need to stop focusing on the skin tone, and rather understand that we are no different from one another, and if we want to talk about Race....Our true race is the Human race....like in the animal kingdom, same species but different forms. We humans can benefit and learn a lot just by going out and seeing what's in the world, and what the world offers. All this knowledge is there, you just need to seek it and want it, and Nature itself will show you.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #304 on: April 27, 2021, 03:07:30 PM »

I do not think it is as pervasive as some think. 


Said the white lawyer.  ;)


No offense, counselor but you are pretty far off the mark with this one.  If it's not as big a problem as "some" think how do you explain the fact that we incarcerate people of color at nearly 5 times the rate of white people?


Quote
African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. This report documents the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.
Source


I'm too lazy to go find more examples but I could fill this entire board up with examples of not just some institutional racism in the United States.  No, the United States is possibly the most racist country on earth.  It permeates every social strata. 


We still don't have a federal law against lynching for chrissakes.


We incarcerate 5 times as many blacks as whites, while blacks only make up 13.4% of our population but you're gonna say the problem is overblown?  Really?  :facepalm:


Currently 42% of the inmates on death row are black while they make up just 13.4% of the population at large.




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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #305 on: April 27, 2021, 04:33:07 PM »
Minor Drug offenses were also, a big factor in being incarcerated.


But where this stems from is the fact that White Europeans all had a sense of entitlement over the world. Which is why they ended up dominating this area of the world. They still want that dominion, and if China or Russia wasn't them and dominant nations, those would've been conquered as well.

But also, let's put Japan in play because they attacked us, yet ended up becoming the most technological advanced nation on Earth.

There is nothing like that for Black or Native people, because we were enslaved and incarcerated for not assimilating into their forceful ways of life.

Only now, those ways of incarceration are justified by the law. Before it was justified through church law, until Queen Isabelle declared that Native people were now Free, yet it took how long for it to be spread into this continent and also, those people knew, yet still disobeyed orders and had Native Slaves.

Since then, both Native and Blacks have been incarcerated and to this day still are...


Look at Leonard Peltier who is still incarcerated.


But also, The people need to realize and these kids need to realize that the system is built around Slavery because of production and this stems from the mining of our resources for the White European community and people, while leaving us the scraps...


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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #306 on: April 28, 2021, 08:23:14 AM »

I do not think it is as pervasive as some think. 


Said the white lawyer.  ;)


No offense, counselor but you are pretty far off the mark with this one.  If it's not as big a problem as "some" think how do you explain the fact that we incarcerate people of color at nearly 5 times the rate of white people?


Quote
African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. This report documents the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.
Source


I'm too lazy to go find more examples but I could fill this entire board up with examples of not just some institutional racism in the United States.  No, the United States is possibly the most racist country on earth.  It permeates every social strata. 


We still don't have a federal law against lynching for chrissakes.


We incarcerate 5 times as many blacks as whites, while blacks only make up 13.4% of our population but you're gonna say the problem is overblown?  Really?  :facepalm:


Currently 42% of the inmates on death row are black while they make up just 13.4% of the population at large.




To start, I'm not at all arguing that systematic racism in the judicial system doesn't exist, it obviously does. But simply saying that there are disproportionate levels of POC in prison does not prove systematic racism. It is possible that black people simply commit more crimes and thus deserve to be in prison at higher rates.

The numbers to me that show systematic racism are the stats that show that black people get harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes. White people are more likely to be let off with a warning where black people are more likely to get a ticket/fine/jail time for the same types of infractions. Black people are targeted more by police for minor infractions that whites get away with all the time. That type of thing, which I know exist.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #307 on: April 28, 2021, 10:59:24 AM »

I do not think it is as pervasive as some think. 


Said the white lawyer.  ;)


No offense, counselor but you are pretty far off the mark with this one.  If it's not as big a problem as "some" think how do you explain the fact that we incarcerate people of color at nearly 5 times the rate of white people?


Quote
African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. This report documents the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.
Source


I'm too lazy to go find more examples but I could fill this entire board up with examples of not just some institutional racism in the United States.  No, the United States is possibly the most racist country on earth.  It permeates every social strata. 


We still don't have a federal law against lynching for chrissakes.


We incarcerate 5 times as many blacks as whites, while blacks only make up 13.4% of our population but you're gonna say the problem is overblown?  Really?  :facepalm:


Currently 42% of the inmates on death row are black while they make up just 13.4% of the population at large.

You don't have to cite more (I mean that nicely; I'm familiar with the numbers, at least nominally).   I get it.  But that's what I meant by difficulty measuring.   Is that differential actually because the incarcerated are there solely because they are black?  Or because of another variable?  And to what degree is THAT variable because the subject is black?   Where does the inequity occur?  In the sentencing?  The convicting?  The arrest?  The perpetration of the alleged crime?   The formulation of the crime (the legislation)?   All of the above? Some of the above?   

In some cases, the evidence is clearer; the "story" behind the "cocaine/crack" discrepancy is well-publicized.  I don't see any explanation there that doesn't at least in part involve race.   But that's not the whole story everywhere else; I've written about this here before:  a study was done here in Connecticut about the traffic stops on a particular stretch of road.   I don't remember the exact numbers, but when compared to the overall state demographic, African Americans were pulled over at something like twice the rate of white drivers, proportionally.  BUT.... when you dug in and looked at the demographic of the ROADWAY, that is, the average "demographic" of the area in which the stops were done, African Americans were pulled over at a rate that was some fraction of that of white drivers, proportionally.  The NAACP made great hay about how racist Connecticut cops are, and yet... with a full data set, that's not what the study showed.   Now, it's not out of the question that other factors/variables are in play.  Why was that stretch of road selected?  What happened with each stop? etc., but that was beyond the scope of the study. 


And while I trust you were joking, my race isn't a factor here, because I'm not arguing about race.  I'm arguing about the merits of the discussion and the elements of the argument.  I am not, for example, saying that the five times African Americans "belong there" in jail.  I'm not saying nothing should be done, or there's no need to look any further.   I am saying, though, that we do have to understand if it really is "race" or if race is a corrollary or if it's something else entirely.    If there is racial bias, it ought to be eradicated as quickly and as completely as it can be.  As that lawyer, I'm interested in a system that has good data in, and good data out.  If someone goes through the system, and ALL other variables are equal, then the outcomes for a white person and a person of color ought to be the same as the demographic in which they are living.  What I'm pushing back on is gamed analysis, that starts with the outcome and assumes a problem without appropriately controlling for all the variables, or where all the other variables AREN'T equal.   I don't do this to defend cops, or to persecute African Americans, I do this because so far all the "solutions" haven't worked, and it's my experience, from almost thirty years of dealing with process improvement in one form or another, that you cannot POSSIBLY solve a problem if you do not understand what that problem is and what's causing it.   "Guessing" and "common sense" are not "understanding".

And finally, let's be clear: the comment about "systemic racism" isn't limited to our criminal justice system.  I think it's in the activists best interests that anything that COULD be racially influenced be categorically classified as "racism".  That's in large part what I mean by "overblown".   This isn't a difference in qualification; I will repeat what I said about, to the extent there is a disparity BY RACE, it needs to be eradicated.   But "race" isn't special, it's not sacred, it's not elite; we need truth, accuracy and objectivity to solve the problem just like we do with climate change, immigration, or any of a 100 other issues that affect our nation.  And again, I say this as an advocate, albeit a measured one:   lack of truthfulness, lack of accuracy, lack of transparency isn't just not going to solve the problem, it's going to make the problem worse.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 11:36:56 AM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #308 on: April 28, 2021, 11:58:30 AM »
From the article that Barry cited, this is a fantastic example of what I'm talking about:

"The impact of structural disadvantage begins early in life. When looking at juvenile crime, it is not necessarily the case that youth of color have a greater tendency to engage in delinquency, but that the uneven playing field from the start, a part of larger American society, creates inequalities which are related to who goes on to commit crime and who is equipped to desist from crime.46) More specifically, as a result of structural differences by race and class, youth of color are more likely to experience unstable family systems, exposure to family and/or community violence, elevated rates of unemployment, and more school dropout.47) All of these factors are more likely to exist in communities of color and play a role in oneís proclivity toward crime."

At some point we have to get to levers that can be pulled to effect lasting, stabilizing change.  But how do you do that?  Is it really "racism" - systemic or otherwise - that under-emphasizes family and/or education in minority families?   This says that income over $50k can reduce the risk of divorce by almost a third over that of families with incomes less than $25k; so clearly there is an economic factor in the structural stability of a family.  Is that "racial" in nature?  There can certainly be racial implications there; but even if an African American family is more likely than a white family to be economically challenged, that's a key spot where the chain of causation can be broken.   Similar with education; it's well established that there are links to education level and income over the working life of an individual.   So how do we use education to remove or minimize the disparities that manifest later in life?   

Again, even if the answer is ultimately, "yes, this is racism", this is a point at which change can be made that is lasting.  Rather than blow up the entire system - that clearly works for SOME - why not make it work for ALL?   Why not put the onus back on the people that want the change, that need the change?  Why not eliminate the grey areas, the downstream correlations, and focus on the real heart of the problem?

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #309 on: April 28, 2021, 12:37:23 PM »

We incarcerate 5 times as many blacks as whites, while blacks only make up 13.4% of our population but you're gonna say the problem is overblown?  Really?  :facepalm:


Currently 42% of the inmates on death row are black while they make up just 13.4% of the population at large.
So as somebody from a state that plays a big role in the makeup of death row, I'll chime in on this. It's a lot of overlap from Stadler's post, but I think I can shed some light on one major distinction. This issue that we see down here is more social than systemic. The issue is with juries being more inclined to sentence a black guy to death than a white guy, and elected prosecutors being more inclined to pursue that avenue. That's a people problem. And the reality, at least I think, has more to do with perception than race. I can assure you that the people that wind up getting the needle down here are rung up because they're seen as undesirable, rather than black or white or Mexican. If a white guy is seen as worthless, and plenty are, he'll get the same end of the shaft. If a black guy is seen as salvageable, he'll escape the needle. While race obviously does factor into the distinction, again, it's a people problem.

While there are rules in place that have been used to stick it to the black folk, the problem was with the application of those rules rather than the rules themselves. A good example of this is the Texas Shuffle. Traditionally white prosecutors could just use peremptory challenges to get rid of black jurors. Batson changed that. The solution was to look at the panel, and if the first guys up were black, request the jury be renumbered at random and hope that more white folk are seated at the front. You had a law that was being exploited, so it was changed, so then the people found a new way to exploit the system. That was changed, too, incidentally. In neither of these instances were the laws actually setup for racial animus. In fact, the Texas Shuffle could be just as easily exploited for the defense (try and get a bunch of white guys moved out of the front rows). It's just the way they were used. That's a people problem.

I've got no beef with you when it comes to systemic racism. It is real and it is a problem. I don't even have a beef with you insofar as there being systemic racism in the justice system. I just don't think citing 42 vs 13.4 really means much. In this instance it's not so much that the system is buggered, but rather that it's being operated by a bunch of fucking savages.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #310 on: April 28, 2021, 02:26:10 PM »

I do not think it is as pervasive as some think. 


Said the white lawyer.  ;)


No offense, counselor but you are pretty far off the mark with this one.  If it's not as big a problem as "some" think how do you explain the fact that we incarcerate people of color at nearly 5 times the rate of white people?


Quote
African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. This report documents the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.
Source


I'm too lazy to go find more examples but I could fill this entire board up with examples of not just some institutional racism in the United States.  No, the United States is possibly the most racist country on earth.  It permeates every social strata. 


We still don't have a federal law against lynching for chrissakes.


We incarcerate 5 times as many blacks as whites, while blacks only make up 13.4% of our population but you're gonna say the problem is overblown?  Really?  :facepalm:


Currently 42% of the inmates on death row are black while they make up just 13.4% of the population at large.




To start, I'm not at all arguing that systematic racism in the judicial system doesn't exist, it obviously does. But simply saying that there are disproportionate levels of POC in prison does not prove systematic racism. It is possible that black people simply commit more crimes and thus deserve to be in prison at higher rates.

The numbers to me that show systematic racism are the stats that show that black people get harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes. White people are more likely to be let off with a warning where black people are more likely to get a ticket/fine/jail time for the same types of infractions. Black people are targeted more by police for minor infractions that whites get away with all the time. That type of thing, which I know exist.


wow  ??? :eek

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #311 on: April 28, 2021, 02:51:17 PM »

I do not think it is as pervasive as some think. 


Said the white lawyer.  ;)


No offense, counselor but you are pretty far off the mark with this one.  If it's not as big a problem as "some" think how do you explain the fact that we incarcerate people of color at nearly 5 times the rate of white people?


Quote
African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons across the country at more than five times the rate of whites, and at least ten times the rate in five states. This report documents the rates of incarceration for whites, African Americans, and Hispanics in each state, identifies three contributors to racial and ethnic disparities in imprisonment, and provides recommendations for reform.
Source


I'm too lazy to go find more examples but I could fill this entire board up with examples of not just some institutional racism in the United States.  No, the United States is possibly the most racist country on earth.  It permeates every social strata. 


We still don't have a federal law against lynching for chrissakes.


We incarcerate 5 times as many blacks as whites, while blacks only make up 13.4% of our population but you're gonna say the problem is overblown?  Really?  :facepalm:


Currently 42% of the inmates on death row are black while they make up just 13.4% of the population at large.




To start, I'm not at all arguing that systematic racism in the judicial system doesn't exist, it obviously does. But simply saying that there are disproportionate levels of POC in prison does not prove systematic racism. It is possible that black people simply commit more crimes and thus deserve to be in prison at higher rates.

The numbers to me that show systematic racism are the stats that show that black people get harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes. White people are more likely to be let off with a warning where black people are more likely to get a ticket/fine/jail time for the same types of infractions. Black people are targeted more by police for minor infractions that whites get away with all the time. That type of thing, which I know exist.


wow  ??? :eek
It's an unpleasant, but unfortunately valid question. The sad part is that it's a necessary topic, but one we can't discuss out of misguided fear. And I say misguided because, thanks to the systemic racism that we generally all agree does exist, it needn't be a judgmental question. I have no problem accepting that we've created a system where dealing rock might be the best option for a certain person, and I can understand why he does that. He won't get any flack from me for taking the obvious course. We can't have it both ways, though. If we've created a system that made criminality his best career move, we can't then turn around and use that as an indictment against the CJ system that exists to imprison criminals. Of course the reality is that there will be problems on both sides. Finding out where the crossover point is seems like a helpful thing to do, but good luck trying to broach that subject. Right now we're only allowed to consider these problems from one vantage point.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #312 on: April 28, 2021, 02:55:47 PM »
Maybe it's possible that the police are biased against black people and investigate /arrest them at a much, much higher rate than white in Oakland a black man is eight times more likely to be pulled over than a white man. I'd gather this statistic holds in some manner nationwide,hence the racism is intrinsic to the system, and breeds it in the populace into thinking that 'black people commit more crimes'

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #313 on: April 28, 2021, 03:20:05 PM »
But I think El Barto is closer to the answer.   The question, and the answer, are still valid questions that have so much baggage, they can't be asked.   

We know for a fact that men commit crimes at a far higher rate than the demographic breakdown (51/49%) should suggest, and we know this is true in all countries for which data are available, and across all racial and ethnic groups, as well as over time.  So why would it necessarily be different for race, especially if we don't exclude other racial impacts like economics?   I'm not suggesting that LordXizor is right, but it's a legit question to ask in order to find the solution to the problem.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #314 on: April 29, 2021, 06:22:15 AM »
I think the phrase "deserve to be in prison" is possibly the point of contention.
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