Author Topic: Racism and Privilege  (Read 14210 times)

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #210 on: January 22, 2021, 09:29:02 PM »
Shouldn't that be exactly what can be done about it. Rather then getting riled up at the NFL itself, why don't they start lambasting the owners for not hiring minorities, and their friends instead.

They do. Billionaires don't generally get too bothered when people on sports talk radio lambast them. It doesn't always fall on the owners though. Some are more involved than others in football decisions and operations. Many times the buck stops at the GM; they are the ones doing the hiring, the owner is just signing the checks.

But then, they own that team, and they can say, you know what screw it, it's done. And no more football team, unless someone buys it from the owner.

I don't see why a minority entrepreneur, can't start up a football team of their own. Why don't these minority celebrities donate or help fund that minority entrepreneur and help them get a minority owned football team started. What is stopping them from doing that?

The business of the NFL is way beyond my knowledge base, but I imagine 1) there isn't a mechanism for forcing an owner to sell, and 2) expansion is complex; you can't just create a new team because you want to.
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Online El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #211 on: January 24, 2021, 05:19:26 PM »
Honestly, the whole thing is pretty misguided. If the best candidate for the job is named La'Travius Juan-Carlos Zhao, Mr. Magnate IV, isn't going to think twice about hiring him. And if you're Deuce Staley, do yo want a job interview because somebody thinks you're qualified, or because the Rooney rule makes you a popular token interviewee? If you get the job, do you want it to be because you were who they really wanted, or because the league incentivized your hire?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #212 on: January 25, 2021, 08:09:48 AM »
Honestly, the whole thing is pretty misguided. If the best candidate for the job is named La'Travius Juan-Carlos Zhao, Mr. Magnate IV, isn't going to think twice about hiring him. And if you're Deuce Staley, do yo want a job interview because somebody thinks you're qualified, or because the Rooney rule makes you a popular token interviewee? If you get the job, do you want it to be because you were who they really wanted, or because the league incentivized your hire?

That's exactly it, really. When you have that level of money involved - winning franchises are generally worth more than those that do not - it's not about color.  It's about the best chance to win.   

For me, I think this is a classic case of where the metrics don't tell you the full story on the ground, and are a construct to further a narrative.  The player population of the NFL is something like 65% African American, the Head Coach population is about 10%, and the OC/DC population is about 18% (general population is about 13.5%).   In the NFL you have career tracks like in any other industry.   Players come out of high school and/or college and they plot their career path.  An inordinate number of African American players get opportunities as players (about 50% of the NCAA is African American); it's not an unreasonable assumption that the white player that doesn't get the playing opportunity is going to stick with the sport in some capacity.   The skillset for playing is not the same as that for coaching; ask Ted Williams about that.  Or Bart Starr, or Wayne Gretsky.   

I think it's misguided to assume an optimal percentage for participation at any given point on the continuum.  The player has other things to consider besides the X's and O's of his position - his conditioning, his health, his diet, etc. - and perhaps doesn't have other things to consider at all - motivation of players in positions that are not his, recruiting and retaining players, overall team strategy.   

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #213 on: January 25, 2021, 08:57:05 AM »
Honestly, the whole thing is pretty misguided. If the best candidate for the job is named La'Travius Juan-Carlos Zhao, Mr. Magnate IV, isn't going to think twice about hiring him. And if you're Deuce Staley, do yo want a job interview because somebody thinks you're qualified, or because the Rooney rule makes you a popular token interviewee? If you get the job, do you want it to be because you were who they really wanted, or because the league incentivized your hire?

That's exactly it, really. When you have that level of money involved - winning franchises are generally worth more than those that do not - it's not about color.  It's about the best chance to win.   

For me, I think this is a classic case of where the metrics don't tell you the full story on the ground, and are a construct to further a narrative.  The player population of the NFL is something like 65% African American, the Head Coach population is about 10%, and the OC/DC population is about 18% (general population is about 13.5%).   In the NFL you have career tracks like in any other industry.   Players come out of high school and/or college and they plot their career path.  An inordinate number of African American players get opportunities as players (about 50% of the NCAA is African American); it's not an unreasonable assumption that the white player that doesn't get the playing opportunity is going to stick with the sport in some capacity.   The skillset for playing is not the same as that for coaching; ask Ted Williams about that.  Or Bart Starr, or Wayne Gretsky.   

I think it's misguided to assume an optimal percentage for participation at any given point on the continuum.  The player has other things to consider besides the X's and O's of his position - his conditioning, his health, his diet, etc. - and perhaps doesn't have other things to consider at all - motivation of players in positions that are not his, recruiting and retaining players, overall team strategy.
I agree with all of that, at least in theory.

What the Rooney Rule is for to make sure that some minority candidates at least get interviewed, which is the huge sticking point.  If they can get in the door, they have a chance to show the owner/GM what they can do.  If they don't get the job, they don't get the job, but at least they had their shot.  That almost never happened before the Rooney Rule.

And to Barto's point about "the best person for the job", I'm not really sure what that means anymore.  What I see often is a white guy gets a head coaching job, is there for a couple of years (maybe one pretty good season, then 2 or 3 mediocre-at-best seasons), he gets canned, and then he's a candidate for another head coaching job, even though he's already demonstrated that he's not a great head coach.  This happens over and over again, instead of giving new candidates a chance (white, black, green, whatever).  It's like a good ole boys network of mediocre coaches that switch jobs every 4 or 5 years, often with a year between jobs to do a TV gig.  Owners don't often look like they care about "the best person for the job", especially if what they mean is a winner.

*shrugs*
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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #214 on: January 25, 2021, 09:24:27 AM »
Honestly, the whole thing is pretty misguided. If the best candidate for the job is named La'Travius Juan-Carlos Zhao, Mr. Magnate IV, isn't going to think twice about hiring him. And if you're Deuce Staley, do yo want a job interview because somebody thinks you're qualified, or because the Rooney rule makes you a popular token interviewee? If you get the job, do you want it to be because you were who they really wanted, or because the league incentivized your hire?

That's exactly it, really. When you have that level of money involved - winning franchises are generally worth more than those that do not - it's not about color.  It's about the best chance to win.   

For me, I think this is a classic case of where the metrics don't tell you the full story on the ground, and are a construct to further a narrative.  The player population of the NFL is something like 65% African American, the Head Coach population is about 10%, and the OC/DC population is about 18% (general population is about 13.5%).   In the NFL you have career tracks like in any other industry.   Players come out of high school and/or college and they plot their career path.  An inordinate number of African American players get opportunities as players (about 50% of the NCAA is African American); it's not an unreasonable assumption that the white player that doesn't get the playing opportunity is going to stick with the sport in some capacity.   The skillset for playing is not the same as that for coaching; ask Ted Williams about that.  Or Bart Starr, or Wayne Gretsky.   

I think it's misguided to assume an optimal percentage for participation at any given point on the continuum.  The player has other things to consider besides the X's and O's of his position - his conditioning, his health, his diet, etc. - and perhaps doesn't have other things to consider at all - motivation of players in positions that are not his, recruiting and retaining players, overall team strategy.
I agree with all of that, at least in theory.

What the Rooney Rule is for to make sure that some minority candidates at least get interviewed, which is the huge sticking point.  If they can get in the door, they have a chance to show the owner/GM what they can do.  If they don't get the job, they don't get the job, but at least they had their shot.  That almost never happened before the Rooney Rule.

And to Barto's point about "the best person for the job", I'm not really sure what that means anymore.  What I see often is a white guy gets a head coaching job, is there for a couple of years (maybe one pretty good season, then 2 or 3 mediocre-at-best seasons), he gets canned, and then he's a candidate for another head coaching job, even though he's already demonstrated that he's not a great head coach.  This happens over and over again, instead of giving new candidates a chance (white, black, green, whatever).  It's like a good ole boys network of mediocre coaches that switch jobs every 4 or 5 years, often with a year between jobs to do a TV gig.  Owners don't often look like they care about "the best person for the job", especially if what they mean is a winner.

*shrugs*

Reminds of the cops that get fired from one precinct and then get hired again in another precinct. They already demonstrated they're not good cops, yet they keep getting hired in other positions.

In other words, that's the way the system works.

OMG...Are they subtly saying Reform the NFL... :lol :lol
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Online El Barto

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #215 on: January 25, 2021, 09:58:44 AM »
Honestly, the whole thing is pretty misguided. If the best candidate for the job is named La'Travius Juan-Carlos Zhao, Mr. Magnate IV, isn't going to think twice about hiring him. And if you're Deuce Staley, do yo want a job interview because somebody thinks you're qualified, or because the Rooney rule makes you a popular token interviewee? If you get the job, do you want it to be because you were who they really wanted, or because the league incentivized your hire?

That's exactly it, really. When you have that level of money involved - winning franchises are generally worth more than those that do not - it's not about color.  It's about the best chance to win.   

For me, I think this is a classic case of where the metrics don't tell you the full story on the ground, and are a construct to further a narrative.  The player population of the NFL is something like 65% African American, the Head Coach population is about 10%, and the OC/DC population is about 18% (general population is about 13.5%).   In the NFL you have career tracks like in any other industry.   Players come out of high school and/or college and they plot their career path.  An inordinate number of African American players get opportunities as players (about 50% of the NCAA is African American); it's not an unreasonable assumption that the white player that doesn't get the playing opportunity is going to stick with the sport in some capacity.   The skillset for playing is not the same as that for coaching; ask Ted Williams about that.  Or Bart Starr, or Wayne Gretsky.   

I think it's misguided to assume an optimal percentage for participation at any given point on the continuum.  The player has other things to consider besides the X's and O's of his position - his conditioning, his health, his diet, etc. - and perhaps doesn't have other things to consider at all - motivation of players in positions that are not his, recruiting and retaining players, overall team strategy.
I agree with all of that, at least in theory.

What the Rooney Rule is for to make sure that some minority candidates at least get interviewed, which is the huge sticking point.  If they can get in the door, they have a chance to show the owner/GM what they can do.  If they don't get the job, they don't get the job, but at least they had their shot.  That almost never happened before the Rooney Rule.

And to Barto's point about "the best person for the job", I'm not really sure what that means anymore.  What I see often is a white guy gets a head coaching job, is there for a couple of years (maybe one pretty good season, then 2 or 3 mediocre-at-best seasons), he gets canned, and then he's a candidate for another head coaching job, even though he's already demonstrated that he's not a great head coach.  This happens over and over again, instead of giving new candidates a chance (white, black, green, whatever).  It's like a good ole boys network of mediocre coaches that switch jobs every 4 or 5 years, often with a year between jobs to do a TV gig.  Owners don't often look like they care about "the best person for the job", especially if what they mean is a winner.

*shrugs*
You got a couple of problems there, Hef. For one, in nearly all of these cases these coaches go back to being coordinators or position coaches for a while, increasing their rep quite a bit. Anthony Lynn is now Detroit's OC, and if he succeeds there he'll get another chance. And he's indicative of your greater problem. This same thing happens to black coaches the same as it does white coaches. Jim Caldwell. Romeo Crennell. Lovie Smith. Herm Edwards. They all got second chances despite not being particularly successful, and I'm sure there are other examples that I can't easily find.

(Finding this list of former black coaches was difficult, and stops at 2010, because the only thing Google will show you are articles about how racist the NFL is because 70% of the coaches aren't black.)
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #216 on: January 25, 2021, 02:29:08 PM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #217 on: January 25, 2021, 03:55:00 PM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #218 on: January 26, 2021, 08:35:45 AM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.
It may not have anything to do with race, but all of these guys are white (Owners, GMs, and coaches).  I think you are being a little too generous by saying "lack of imagination".  Among 32 owners, most of whom are capitalists of the first order worth literally billions, that's a lot of imagination missing.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #219 on: January 26, 2021, 08:43:45 AM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.
It may not have anything to do with race, but all of these guys are white (Owners, GMs, and coaches).  I think you are being a little too generous by saying "lack of imagination".  Among 32 owners, most of whom are capitalists of the first order worth literally billions, that's a lot of imagination missing.
Perhaps he is. Where I run into a problem is when people automatically assume racist intent. I'm not saying you're doing that, but there's an awful lot of it going around.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #220 on: January 26, 2021, 09:29:36 AM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.
It may not have anything to do with race, but all of these guys are white (Owners, GMs, and coaches).  I think you are being a little too generous by saying "lack of imagination".  Among 32 owners, most of whom are capitalists of the first order worth literally billions, that's a lot of imagination missing.
Perhaps he is. Where I run into a problem is when people automatically assume racist intent. I'm not saying you're doing that, but there's an awful lot of it going around.

Yes it is, and being in the minority of minorities, I see it. It's hard to distinguish between Real racial intent, and someone playing the race victim card. And then, those of us that do tell those people, that's not racist at all, it's just you playing the race-victim, then they call me a traitor, I'm like, well you're not helping solve this issue, you're part of the problem.

But, if all of those guys on the top are white (GMs', Owners), why won't they start their own League, that is owned by Minorities. Guarantee, it'll make the league crumble, as the NFL will see their athletes and potential athletes move to the other League. It's possible to do, as there are Wealthy Black People (especially those celebs).

I personally think, that's a better way to fight Racial Injustice.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #221 on: January 26, 2021, 12:18:45 PM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.
It may not have anything to do with race, but all of these guys are white (Owners, GMs, and coaches).  I think you are being a little too generous by saying "lack of imagination".  Among 32 owners, most of whom are capitalists of the first order worth literally billions, that's a lot of imagination missing.

It's not at all, though.   I took entire classes during my MBA examining companies that withered and died on the vine, limiting themselves and their development by not moving too far from center.  There's a fantastic Harvard Business Review article on BMW from about 2000 on that exact topic (they having largely done it right, balancing innovation with consistency and tradition).   When you have billions at stake, it's hard to be bold, and there's not a lot of risk taking in the NFL when it comes to coaches.  Why take a chance on "New Guy", black OR white, when you've got Adam Gase, who, sure, failed, but [ratioanlization], and [rationalization], and of course there is [rationalization].


I refuse to call a GM or owner racist because given a choice between a coach who is white and a coach who is black, they opt to hire the guy who has previous coaching experience over the guy who doesn't.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #222 on: January 26, 2021, 12:52:40 PM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.
It may not have anything to do with race, but all of these guys are white (Owners, GMs, and coaches).  I think you are being a little too generous by saying "lack of imagination".  Among 32 owners, most of whom are capitalists of the first order worth literally billions, that's a lot of imagination missing.
Perhaps he is. Where I run into a problem is when people automatically assume racist intent. I'm not saying you're doing that, but there's an awful lot of it going around.

Yes it is, and being in the minority of minorities, I see it. It's hard to distinguish between Real racial intent, and someone playing the race victim card. And then, those of us that do tell those people, that's not racist at all, it's just you playing the race-victim, then they call me a traitor, I'm like, well you're not helping solve this issue, you're part of the problem.

But, if all of those guys on the top are white (GMs', Owners), why won't they start their own League, that is owned by Minorities. Guarantee, it'll make the league crumble, as the NFL will see their athletes and potential athletes move to the other League. It's possible to do, as there are Wealthy Black People (especially those celebs).

I personally think, that's a better way to fight Racial Injustice.

But what are we calling "racial injustice"?   Just because the percentage of non-white owners of the four major sports teams in the U.S. is less than that of the general population, doesn't necessarily mean "injustice".   One, most of these owners are long term; some of the ownership in NFL extends back half a century.  We can't FORCE teams to sell out.   And when they do come up for sale, who is doing the buying?  We can't FORCE people of color to buy in.   When the Charlotte Panthers went up for sale, P Diddy expressed interest, the league, including Robert Kraft, expressed interest in him... but ultimately he did not submit a bid.    Eight major league teams transferred ownership since 2010; three of the eight (37.5%) involved a transfer to some form of minority ownership (including the Royals, in whom Patrick Mahomes has an ownership interest).

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #223 on: January 26, 2021, 03:58:07 PM »
I'm not as concerned with second chances.  Everyone (almost) deserves a second chance.  I'm talking about guys getting third, fourth, or fifth chances, who have proven nothing about their ability other than they don't have very much, while potentially deserving candidates (black or otherwise) just don't get a shot.

I think there are ABSOLUTELY people in that category, and I'm sure I'll think of one when I go cook dinner.  But I don't think that has anything to do with "race" per se, and more to do with lack of imagination.
It may not have anything to do with race, but all of these guys are white (Owners, GMs, and coaches).  I think you are being a little too generous by saying "lack of imagination".  Among 32 owners, most of whom are capitalists of the first order worth literally billions, that's a lot of imagination missing.
Perhaps he is. Where I run into a problem is when people automatically assume racist intent. I'm not saying you're doing that, but there's an awful lot of it going around.

Yes it is, and being in the minority of minorities, I see it. It's hard to distinguish between Real racial intent, and someone playing the race victim card. And then, those of us that do tell those people, that's not racist at all, it's just you playing the race-victim, then they call me a traitor, I'm like, well you're not helping solve this issue, you're part of the problem.

But, if all of those guys on the top are white (GMs', Owners), why won't they start their own League, that is owned by Minorities. Guarantee, it'll make the league crumble, as the NFL will see their athletes and potential athletes move to the other League. It's possible to do, as there are Wealthy Black People (especially those celebs).

I personally think, that's a better way to fight Racial Injustice.

But what are we calling "racial injustice"?   Just because the percentage of non-white owners of the four major sports teams in the U.S. is less than that of the general population, doesn't necessarily mean "injustice".   One, most of these owners are long term; some of the ownership in NFL extends back half a century.  We can't FORCE teams to sell out.   And when they do come up for sale, who is doing the buying?  We can't FORCE people of color to buy in.   When the Charlotte Panthers went up for sale, P Diddy expressed interest, the league, including Robert Kraft, expressed interest in him... but ultimately he did not submit a bid.    Eight major league teams transferred ownership since 2010; three of the eight (37.5%) involved a transfer to some form of minority ownership (including the Royals, in whom Patrick Mahomes has an ownership interest).

That's what I am asking as well. I agree with you here.

I wish those people that screaming at the NFL though would see what you posted. About P Diddy having interest, but not submitting a bid. Could be negotiations, and other things, to why Diddy didn't submit.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #224 on: March 19, 2021, 06:13:09 AM »
Frustrated at where we've evolved to. 

There are a couple posts in the COVID thread (non-PR version) where we're laughing/mocking/shaking our heads at people who just aren't listening to FACTS, and are drawing their own conclusions regardless, based on their feelings and/or their agenda.

So, here in CT, the recent attacks in Georgia have been getting a lot of airtime, to the point that my local station had to do a special fact-check session (they call it "We Verify!") about the events.

So they run through the FACTS, as we know them, and play a tape of the Atlanta Police representative (I don't know if he's the chief or not) saying that the suspect has been clear that race was NOT a motive, and that the suspect indicated he did it to deal with his sex addiction (the spas were, apparently, a temptation for him).  Then he said that they would be doing more investigation, since "it was too early in the investigation to draw any conclusions".   The next segment was my Attorney General - William Tong - responding generally to attacks on Asian-Americans, but very clearly and very specifically stating that the attacks in Georgia were racially motivated.  He appeared on CNN as well, making a similar case.

Now, look, this isn't about the subject matter; hate crimes in 2020 were down overall by about 7%, but against the Asian-American community they were up almost 150% (many suggest this is a result of misinformation regarding the origins of the COVID virus). That's got to end, and we must address that disparity. It's just ignorance. But why the fast and loose with the facts? Why does the fact that some agree this is a worthy cause justify the glossing over of fundamentals of truth to make the point?

If "moral certainty" about our cause is enough to trump truth (and I use that word very specifically), where does it end?  Why does truth even matter at that point?

Offline Chino

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #225 on: March 19, 2021, 06:29:25 AM »
Frustrated at where we've evolved to. 

There are a couple posts in the COVID thread (non-PR version) where we're laughing/mocking/shaking our heads at people who just aren't listening to FACTS, and are drawing their own conclusions regardless, based on their feelings and/or their agenda.

So, here in CT, the recent attacks in Georgia have been getting a lot of airtime, to the point that my local station had to do a special fact-check session (they call it "We Verify!") about the events.

So they run through the FACTS, as we know them, and play a tape of the Atlanta Police representative (I don't know if he's the chief or not) saying that the suspect has been clear that race was NOT a motive, and that the suspect indicated he did it to deal with his sex addiction (the spas were, apparently, a temptation for him).  Then he said that they would be doing more investigation, since "it was too early in the investigation to draw any conclusions".   The next segment was my Attorney General - William Tong - responding generally to attacks on Asian-Americans, but very clearly and very specifically stating that the attacks in Georgia were racially motivated.  He appeared on CNN as well, making a similar case.

Now, look, this isn't about the subject matter; hate crimes in 2020 were down overall by about 7%, but against the Asian-American community they were up almost 150% (many suggest this is a result of misinformation regarding the origins of the COVID virus). That's got to end, and we must address that disparity. It's just ignorance. But why the fast and loose with the facts? Why does the fact that some agree this is a worthy cause justify the glossing over of fundamentals of truth to make the point?

If "moral certainty" about our cause is enough to trump truth (and I use that word very specifically), where does it end?  Why does truth even matter at that point?

This one is a shit show for sure. There's a lot of little things for a whole bunch of different groups to be pissed at.

As you said, hate crimes against Asians are up 150% in the last year. Regardless of the shooter's motivation, six Asian women were murdered. They not being presented as people that were just mowed down, but rather sex objects that this dude struggled to cope with mentally. Even when they're getting shot and killed, they're some how being negged by the media, even if it's not intentional. 

The police chief really fucked this one up too. The shooter was "having a bad day"... c'mon. We all have bad days. The chief also had a history of anti-Asian posts on Facebook, so you can't help but wonder if he's trying to cover for the kid somehow.
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/17/us/shooting-atlanta-acworth
“He was pretty much fed up and had been kind of at the end of his rope,” Captain Baker said. “Yesterday was a really bad day for him, and this is what he did.”

The comments were widely panned on social media, with critics characterizing them as callous and pointing to Facebook posts from March 30 and April 2 of last year by Captain Baker, in which he promoted sales of an anti-Asian T-shirt. The shirts, echoing the rhetoric of President Donald J. Trump, referred to the coronavirus as an “imported virus from Chy-na.”

“Place your order while they last,” Captain Baker wrote at the time in one of the posts. He did not respond to requests for comment on Wednesday and Thursday.


I'm not ready to declare this shooter as being racially motivated yet, but I'm not sold on the whole sex-addiction/bad day thing either. It's probably a combination of the two.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #226 on: March 19, 2021, 06:29:52 AM »
the attacks were racially motivated.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #227 on: March 19, 2021, 06:44:51 AM »
So they run through the FACTS, as we know them, and play a tape of the Atlanta Police representative (I don't know if he's the chief or not) saying that the suspect has been clear that race was NOT a motive, and that the suspect indicated he did it to deal with his sex addiction (the spas were, apparently, a temptation for him).

Mass murderers, are of course, noted for their reliability and truthfulness.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #228 on: March 19, 2021, 07:06:13 AM »
the attacks were racially motivated.

x1000 The shooter specifically sought out Asian sex workers. Just because the shooter says it isn't racially motivated doesn't make it so. That police chief also has some anti-asian racist shit on his social media.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #229 on: March 19, 2021, 07:07:40 AM »
So they run through the FACTS, as we know them, and play a tape of the Atlanta Police representative (I don't know if he's the chief or not) saying that the suspect has been clear that race was NOT a motive, and that the suspect indicated he did it to deal with his sex addiction (the spas were, apparently, a temptation for him).

Mass murderers, are of course, noted for their reliability and truthfulness.

So it's whatever we want it to be, regardless of what they say?  Why does that only seem to apply when the agenda suits it?  And that also means the police and prosecutors in Atlanta are in on it too.   I'm not actually taking HIS word for it, I'm taking the word of the people charged with investigating this.  It's kind of in their best interest too, to make this something more than it is, and yet they aren't.   

I'm just tired of being lectured by certain factions that "words matter" and that we have to "watch what we say", then when it's no longer convenient to do so, "who the f--- cares!".   

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #230 on: March 19, 2021, 07:34:43 AM »
the attacks were racially motivated.

x1000 The shooter specifically sought out Asian sex workers. Just because the shooter says it isn't racially motivated doesn't make it so. That police chief also has some anti-asian racist shit on his social media.
Now, wait.  He definitely deliberately sought out massage parlors featuring sex workers.  But just because most (not all!) of the sex workers there were Asian doesn't mean that he did it for racist reasons.  Correlation =/= causation.  After all, he killed the non-Asians, too.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #231 on: March 19, 2021, 07:40:48 AM »
the attacks were racially motivated.

x1000 The shooter specifically sought out Asian sex workers. Just because the shooter says it isn't racially motivated doesn't make it so. That police chief also has some anti-asian racist shit on his social media.
Now, wait.  He definitely deliberately sought out massage parlors featuring sex workers.  But just because most (not all!) of the sex workers there were Asian doesn't mean that he did it for racist reasons.  Correlation =/= causation.  After all, he killed the non-Asians, too.



Totally personal perspective... He felt shame and fear that these Asian women (he was a frequent customer of these places) had such power and control over him, so in his fucked up mind he had to eliminate and reassert his dominance. It was specifically the Asian women, and there accessibility, that aroused him and made him feel shame. The other people shot were just wrong place, wrong time.


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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #232 on: March 19, 2021, 07:41:52 AM »
So they run through the FACTS, as we know them, and play a tape of the Atlanta Police representative (I don't know if he's the chief or not) saying that the suspect has been clear that race was NOT a motive, and that the suspect indicated he did it to deal with his sex addiction (the spas were, apparently, a temptation for him).

Mass murderers, are of course, noted for their reliability and truthfulness.

So it's whatever we want it to be, regardless of what they say?

No. Just suggesting that a man who is willing to murder 6 Asian people and 2 other persons in cold blood might also be willing to lie about why he did it. Out of the two crimes, lying is probably a bit easier to justify to yourself. Conversely, despite Asian Americans being a distinct minority in the US population, made up 75% of his victims, might at least point in the direction of their being a racial component.

Quote
And that also means the police and prosecutors in Atlanta are in on it too.   I'm not actually taking HIS word for it, I'm taking the word of the people charged with investigating this.  It's kind of in their best interest too, to make this something more than it is, and yet they aren't.   

No, you're taking the word of a police spokesperson who has demonstrable anti-Asian bias.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #233 on: March 19, 2021, 07:42:28 AM »
the attacks were racially motivated.

x1000 The shooter specifically sought out Asian sex workers. Just because the shooter says it isn't racially motivated doesn't make it so. That police chief also has some anti-asian racist shit on his social media.

And just saying it is, doesn't make it so.   That's exactly the point of my posting this.  I have no idea what his motivation was or was not; that a majority of victims are of a certain demographic doesn't make that demographic the target without some corroboration.  I have an adult club about five miles from my house; I'm not a patron, but I know someone who is, and he's thrilled by the fact that most of the women there have a Russian/Eastern European accent; if a dancer stiffs him on the lap dance, or shuts down his asking her on a date, and he shoots the place up, is that de facto a hate crime against women from behind the Iron Curtain?   If it turns out this is in fact a crime against Asian Americans, then prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law based on that fact.  But in the meantime, I think it destroys credibility to make grand pronouncements without basis, and in fact, in contradiction to what little we know.

(Personally, I think it's just as likely that this was a crime against women, frankly, but I'm in no better position to judge than anyone else.  From what I've pieced together, the club he shot up was not necesarily known for illicit sexual acts.)

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #235 on: March 19, 2021, 07:49:21 AM »
So they run through the FACTS, as we know them, and play a tape of the Atlanta Police representative (I don't know if he's the chief or not) saying that the suspect has been clear that race was NOT a motive, and that the suspect indicated he did it to deal with his sex addiction (the spas were, apparently, a temptation for him).

Mass murderers, are of course, noted for their reliability and truthfulness.

So it's whatever we want it to be, regardless of what they say?

No. Just suggesting that a man who is willing to murder 6 Asian people and 2 other persons in cold blood might also be willing to lie about why he did it. Out of the two crimes, lying is probably a bit easier to justify to yourself. Conversely, despite Asian Americans being a distinct minority in the US population, made up 75% of his victims, might at least point in the direction of their being a racial component.

You're SUGGESTING he MIGHT.  Fair enough.   No argument.

That's very different than point-blank statements on intent like are being made here.  And I've already noted the percentage doesn't matter in a sample size that small.

And actually, I'm not even all that worried about individuals here; look, it's all the usual suspects finding a way to make everything about identity politics no matter what happens and facts be damned.   But we're talking about the media now, and elected officials who we choose to represent ALL of us, not just those of a certain demographic.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that the HIGHEST prosecutor in my state, the Attorney General, has unilaterally decided to forego any due process and determine his guilt and his motivation without a trial or without representation.

Quote
Quote
And that also means the police and prosecutors in Atlanta are in on it too.   I'm not actually taking HIS word for it, I'm taking the word of the people charged with investigating this.  It's kind of in their best interest too, to make this something more than it is, and yet they aren't.   

No, you're taking the word of a police spokesperson who has demonstrable anti-Asian bias.

Well, I know what I said and wrote, but the reality is, I'm not taking ANYONE'S word. It'd be more accurate to say I'm just not dismissing out of hand any word because of my personal bias or viewpoint. There is a difference.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #236 on: March 19, 2021, 07:51:05 AM »
I’ve been reading and listening to the asian community, here’s a few examples

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/tanyachen/asian-women-fetish-racist-atlanta-shootings?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1261339?__twitter_impression=true

So you've found two opinion pieces that jive with your opinion.  OKay. That settles it, then.

The second one, while a moving story that ought to be read by all, doesn't even bother to assert that it's an opinion, the author just takes it as a fait accompli that we all know what the deal is, and extrapolates it out to a number of unrelated - albeit heartbreaking - incidents and events. 

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #237 on: March 19, 2021, 07:52:07 AM »
I’ve been reading and listening to the asian community, here’s a few examples

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/tanyachen/asian-women-fetish-racist-atlanta-shootings?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1261339?__twitter_impression=true

So you've found two opinion pieces that jive with your opinion.  OKay. That settles it, then.

insensitive jerk, no surprise there.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #238 on: March 19, 2021, 07:54:00 AM »
I’ve been reading and listening to the asian community, here’s a few examples

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/tanyachen/asian-women-fetish-racist-atlanta-shootings?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1261339?__twitter_impression=true

So you've found two opinion pieces that jive with your opinion.  OKay. That settles it, then.

insensitive jerk, no surprise there.

I'm asking hard questions and you're selectively quoting me and name-calling like an adolescent.  No surprise there, either.

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #239 on: March 19, 2021, 07:58:34 AM »
I’ve been reading and listening to the asian community, here’s a few examples

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/tanyachen/asian-women-fetish-racist-atlanta-shootings?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1261339?__twitter_impression=true

So you've found two opinion pieces that jive with your opinion.  OKay. That settles it, then.

insensitive jerk, no surprise there.

I'm asking hard questions and you're selectively quoting me and name-calling like an adolescent.  No surprise there, either.

you want to derail this conversation like you do everytime, fine have at it.  You’re
  not gaslighting me ever again into thinking I’m the only one with a problem here,  plenty of people are sick of your shit and you know it. 

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #240 on: March 19, 2021, 08:01:40 AM »
That's very different than point-blank statements on intent like are being made here.  And I've already noted the percentage doesn't matter in a sample size that small.

I don't buy that argument. Murder is not a stochastic process. The perpetrator had both agency to choose where and when he committed the crime, and the time and power to choose his victims. Therefore the small number of individuals he chose to murder is quite pertinent. Same way as 3 dead Double 0 agents might be an indicator you have a SMERSH problem.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #241 on: March 19, 2021, 08:02:56 AM »
I’ve been reading and listening to the asian community, here’s a few examples

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/tanyachen/asian-women-fetish-racist-atlanta-shootings?__twitter_impression=true

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1261339?__twitter_impression=true

So you've found two opinion pieces that jive with your opinion.  OKay. That settles it, then.

insensitive jerk, no surprise there.

I'm asking hard questions and you're selectively quoting me and name-calling like an adolescent.  No surprise there, either.

you want to derail this conversation like you do everytime, fine have at it.  You’re
  not gaslighting me ever again into thinking I’m the only one with a problem here,  plenty of people are sick of your shit and you know it. 

Xerocks, might I request you take a break before I force one upon you? This kind of name-calling is not on.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #242 on: March 19, 2021, 08:13:33 AM »
That's very different than point-blank statements on intent like are being made here.  And I've already noted the percentage doesn't matter in a sample size that small.

I don't buy that argument. Murder is not a stochastic process. The perpetrator had both agency to choose where and when he committed the crime, and the time and power to choose his victims. Therefore the small number of individuals he chose to murder is quite pertinent. Same way as 3 dead Double 0 agents might be an indicator you have a SMERSH problem.

Nice 007 reference (I just bought the Bond box set with all 124 movies).

Look, I hear you.

I'm against the taking of anyone's life without their consent, so this kid, if he confessed to this, is a piece of shit who should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.  No question.

I'm also not saying this isn't a hate crime; it may well be.  In fact, I've already said, since "gender" is a part of "hate crime" I very much think it is.  BUT I DON'T KNOW, and I don't get to fill in someone else's "truth" with what I think.

I'm objecting to this now-widely accepted model of "Oh, well we ALL know what he's REALLY thinking!  <Wink wink, nod nod>".  It's no way to govern or police a democratic republic of 330 million people.  No, you DON'T know what I'm REALLY thinking, and don't pretend to (at best) or punish me for it (at worst).  I'm sorry if it's a distasteful example for some, but it is what it is.   (And there's no gaslighting: I know full well Xe isn't the only one with the problem; I can't help that and I'm not pandering to someone else's misconceptions or misreading of my words.)

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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #243 on: March 19, 2021, 08:31:42 AM »
the attacks were racially motivated.

x1000 The shooter specifically sought out Asian sex workers. Just because the shooter says it isn't racially motivated doesn't make it so. That police chief also has some anti-asian racist shit on his social media.
Now, wait.  He definitely deliberately sought out massage parlors featuring sex workers.  But just because most (not all!) of the sex workers there were Asian doesn't mean that he did it for racist reasons.  Correlation =/= causation.  After all, he killed the non-Asians, too.

Totally personal perspective... He felt shame and fear that these Asian women (he was a frequent customer of these places) had such power and control over him, so in his fucked up mind he had to eliminate and reassert his dominance. It was specifically the Asian women, and there accessibility, that aroused him and made him feel shame. The other people shot were just wrong place, wrong time.

I haven't been following this other than what's been shown in the headlines and ticker scrolls.  But Hef's comment is pretty much exactly where I'm at.  Unless there are some specific facts that I've missed which supports RJs comments, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it being an open-and-shut fact that it was racially motivated - AT THIS TIME.  It could very well be, I just don't know that there is demonstrable evidence to fully support it.

If it comes out (for example) that he frequented MANY "spa's", and there are ones with non-Asian therapists that went unscathed, then I can see the argument for it being a racist crime.  This appears more likely to be mysogynistic than racist to me at the moment.
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Re: Racism and Privilege
« Reply #244 on: March 19, 2021, 08:35:02 AM »
Stadler's batting a thousand this morning. I think his point here is bang-on. This kid was targeting whore-houses, both the working gals and the management/ownership. The fact that they're Asian doesn't really seem to be a component of this. Yet it's damn sure the one aspect that we want to fixate on because it's and indictment of the conservative xenophobic rhetoric we see all to much of. Not only that, we're assuming the credibility of the people involved based on what we want to believe.

And for what it's worth, as soon as I heard about this my first thought was A.J. Maggot from The Dirty Dozen. The idea that he was targeting Asians never really entered my head. He was targeting whores. My inititial assumption was based on religious fervor (Maggot), but now I think he might be a different sort of wacko. Killing people because they're an uncontrollable temptation spells nutjob to me, just as shooting a president to bang Jodie Foster or beating up Dan Rather to stop CBS from beaming RF signals into his noggin does.
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