Author Topic: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?  (Read 1330 times)

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Offline H2

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Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« on: October 29, 2020, 04:50:42 PM »
As far as the Catholicism thing, as someone who grew up Catholic myself, I'll just say:  If you are into it because of the culture and all, or you take comfort in the ritualistic aspects of it, I get that.  But if the goal is to be part of a "form of Christianity," Catholicism is directly incompatible with what it means to be a Christian, so I don't get that.  But I'll just leave it at that for purposes of this thread.  If you want to further discuss, we can do that by PM or take it to P/R.
Just wanted to take you up on this. I don't see that Catholicism is directly incompatible with what it means to be a Christian. To be convinced of this, I would want to know what you mean by "what it means to be a Christian", and what about Catholicism stands in conflict with this.

Personally, I'm not into the ritualistic or cultural side of Catholicism. I understand that the deep history and reverential culture are nice in theory, but my id bucks up against such things. I personally find the independent cowboy culture of Protestantism to be much more attractive. However, this isn't about culture; this is about truth, and my instinctive feelings about culture are irrelevant.

I do think Scripture can have God-inspired authority, and its authority need not rely on external justification but may be taken as an epistemological primitive. in much the same way, I think Tradition can have God-inspired authority, and its authority need not rely on external justification but may be taken as an epistemological primitive. Now I believe it's demonstrable that Jesus favored the Hebrew Scriptures and regarded them as authoritative, and a follower of Jesus would follow suit. I think it's also possible that Jesus founded an institution which would be led by the Holy Spirit into both the preservation and generation of truth. And if he did so, that institution could well be the Catholic Church.

That's where I'm at. I'm not convinced (yet) that Jesus did set down such an institution, and moreover that that institution is the Catholic Church. I've only just begun exploring this issue. But I think it's possible. From what I can tell, the Catholic perspective is internally consistent and not refutable by proof of contradiction. So I'm on the lookout for external reasons for disbelieving its premises.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2020, 06:41:08 PM by H2 »

Offline bosk1

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Re: Catholicism vs Protestantism
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2020, 05:39:44 PM »
However, this isn't about culture; this is about truth, and my instinctive feelings about culture are irrelevant.

I do think Scripture can have God-inspired authority, and its authority need not rely on external justification but may be taken as an epistemological primitive. ... Now I believe it's demonstrable that Jesus favored the Hebrew Scriptures and regarded them as authoritative, and a follower of Jesus would follow suit.

Well, I think this is a good starting point.  So that is where I will start.  More later, when I can get to it.

But I will also say as a starting point that I think you got the title of the thread wrong.  "Catholicism vs. Protestantism" isn't the point because Christianity is not accurately reflected in either "-ism."  I'm not interested in debating whether protestantism is correct because I do not believe that it is.  Coming back to the foundational point I quoted above, both are in conflict with that foundation. 
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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2020, 07:26:47 AM »
Well, catholicism is the original organized Christian religion (please correct me if I'm wrong but my 2 second Google search backs it up), so I would suggest that all the other Christian religions are rebellious offshoots of it. I personally feel that any organized Christianity by nature goes against what I see as Jesus's core message, being that humility is a big part of it and there is nothing humble about any of them.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2020, 07:47:35 AM »
Well, catholicism is the original organized Christian religion (please correct me if I'm wrong but my 2 second Google search backs it up), so I would suggest that all the other Christian religions are rebellious offshoots of it. I personally feel that any organized Christianity by nature goes against what I see as Jesus's core message, being that humility is a big part of it and there is nothing humble about any of them.

We are non denominational Christians....and my largest issue with what I see out of a LOT of churches/groups that claim to be of the 'Christian' faith is that they're in direct violation of Christ teachings. Specifically the whole 'love one another' aspect. I'm not a theologian by any means but I'm fairly confident that you won't find Jesus imploring anyone in any translation of his teachings to 'hate'. Love is the cornerstone of his teachings so you can't 'hate' homosexuals or muslims or whoever and claim that you're following Christ.

 He has some very challenging teachings that does butt heads with our natural instinctive desires but that's the point....to challenge us to rise above it. So...when I see groups that condemn the LGTBQ communities or muslims or whatever....it's just not what we're asked to do by Christ.
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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2020, 07:54:48 AM »
I completely agree, but the point I want to make, which I feel is more to the thread's theme think, is that organized religion in general is contrarian to Jesus's teachings...

Quote
when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I mean, as I read that, any mass gathering for the purpose of praising God is in direct violation of his word, right?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 08:13:42 AM by lonestar »

Offline H2

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2020, 08:16:24 AM »
I agree that Christ taught love and not hate. I don't think it's right to hate anyone. However, why would disapproval count as hate? Parents can (rightly or wrongly) disapprove of their children's behavior, yet that doesn't imply that parents hate their children. And to press the issue deeper--why would condemnation amount to hate? Genocide and hate crimes are rightly condemned--yet I believe it is possible to love those who commit such crimes--not in the sense that you are wild about them, but in the sense that Luke Skywalker saw the good in Darth Vader and wanted him to come back to the Light Side. So if you grant that condemnation and disapproval do not necessarily imply hate, then the fact that many Christian denoms disapprove of or even condemn certain groups does not imply that those Christian denoms or their members hate those groups.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2020, 08:32:28 AM »
Well, catholicism is the original organized Christian religion (please correct me if I'm wrong but my 2 second Google search backs it up), so I would suggest that all the other Christian religions are rebellious offshoots of it. I personally feel that any organized Christianity by nature goes against what I see as Jesus's core message, being that humility is a big part of it and there is nothing humble about any of them.

We are non denominational Christians....and my largest issue with what I see out of a LOT of churches/groups that claim to be of the 'Christian' faith is that they're in direct violation of Christ teachings. Specifically the whole 'love one another' aspect. I'm not a theologian by any means but I'm fairly confident that you won't find Jesus imploring anyone in any translation of his teachings to 'hate'. Love is the cornerstone of his teachings so you can't 'hate' homosexuals or muslims or whoever and claim that you're following Christ.

 He has some very challenging teachings that does butt heads with our natural instinctive desires but that's the point....to challenge us to rise above it. So...when I see groups that condemn the LGTBQ communities or muslims or whatever....it's just not what we're asked to do by Christ.

The Catholic Church was in place before Jesus. The Empires ruled, with the Catholic Religion, being their justification for their atrocities. Because God said so, "I know because I'm the priest, and that's what the Pope said." In Catholicism, The Pope is the messenger between Man and God, He is supposed to be the one whom God speaks to us from.

Jesus was born, of the spirit of the son of God. He was a man physically, and would partake in any human nature things, because all that is Human in Nature, is physical. In mind, heart, and spirit, he was the son of God. The things Jesus was preaching, and teaching his disciples, are what the people were beginning to forget. God saw the need to send his Son's spirit, into man. The birthing of Christ, could be a story to emphasize his God-Like knowledge, by making him born of a virgin. But his teachings, should be the main focus of his life.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2020, 08:40:47 AM »
I completely agree, but the point I want to make, which I feel is more to the thread's theme think, is that organized religion in general is contrarian to Jesus's teachings...

Quote
when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I mean, as I read that, any mass gathering for the purpose of praising God is in direct violation of his word, right?

No...

It's saying, Don't be like those Hypocrites, that will only pray if people are around, like in the synagogues, and won't pray at home. When you pray at home, it's a more personal spiritual connection, that only you and God have at that moment, and God will reward you, because you are showing you are faithful in your heart, regardless of a synagogue.

It's like Jesus was teaching us how to Live peacefully, in a more personal sense, without the need of a church, synagogue. As, long as you personally have faith, they can kick you out of the synagogue, church, but God will still listen to you and reward you because you still have that faith.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2020, 09:37:28 AM »
Define "True Christianity".
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2020, 10:54:20 AM »
Well, catholicism is the original organized Christian religion (please correct me if I'm wrong but my 2 second Google search backs it up), so I would suggest that all the other Christian religions are rebellious offshoots of it. I personally feel that any organized Christianity by nature goes against what I see as Jesus's core message, being that humility is a big part of it and there is nothing humble about any of them.

We are non denominational Christians....and my largest issue with what I see out of a LOT of churches/groups that claim to be of the 'Christian' faith is that they're in direct violation of Christ teachings. Specifically the whole 'love one another' aspect. I'm not a theologian by any means but I'm fairly confident that you won't find Jesus imploring anyone in any translation of his teachings to 'hate'. Love is the cornerstone of his teachings so you can't 'hate' homosexuals or muslims or whoever and claim that you're following Christ.

 He has some very challenging teachings that does butt heads with our natural instinctive desires but that's the point....to challenge us to rise above it. So...when I see groups that condemn the LGTBQ communities or muslims or whatever....it's just not what we're asked to do by Christ.

This is neither a test of your faith, or a doctrinal question, but for you, how do you reconcile that - "Christ is love" - with the notion that he (or, if you prefer, his teachings) does have.... requirements or rules, for lack of a better word.   One can't do whatever one wants, claim it's rooted in "love", and be clean.   


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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2020, 10:54:32 AM »
I agree with the notion that the Catholic Church and it's off-shoots - Protestantism, Lutherism, etc. - are all of the family "Christian", as they hold Jesus Christ as deity, as the son of God.   I also agree with the notion of "Christ is love".   But I tend to opt to Catholicism for a number of reasons.  One is that the priests are NOT lay people of the congregation.  They are separate, and have authority, knowledge, and ability that the congregation does not.  I find it not a minor act of hubris to feel you can be part of the congregation, and yet "good enough" to lead that congregation.    Two, is precisely because it IS reluctant to change.   I wish it would, but I'm not necessarily convinced by the churches that pander to the social, political, and cultural fads of the moment.  Yes, I do try to love my fellow man, and I certainly do not "hate" people that are different than me, but I don't go so far as to accept that "anything goes".    I'm not referring specifically to any trait or characteristic (some will wrongly conclude I am talking in veiled terms about homosexuality; I am not), but that someone is "born that way" doesn't make it right or acceptable.   That I think something or feel something doesn't make it right or acceptable.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2020, 11:00:07 AM »
I completely agree, but the point I want to make, which I feel is more to the thread's theme think, is that organized religion in general is contrarian to Jesus's teachings...

Quote
when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I mean, as I read that, any mass gathering for the purpose of praising God is in direct violation of his word, right?

You're a well-read guy; I'm pretty sure you don't need me to remind you that pulling one sentence out of thousands, or more, is exceedingly fraught with peril.

Romans - written by Paul the Apostle, and expressing the gospel of Jesus Christ - in general is pretty clear on the various forms of worship, and if memory (helped by Google!) serves, at one point it says quite clearly that “together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

For me, I have problems with SOME churches, but I choose to look at it as the failure of humans, not any statement on God, Jesus or their message.   Humans have a way of taking good things and f*****g them up for all of us.

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2020, 11:02:06 AM »
Ah the Bible, land of endless contradictions  :lol
I completely agree, but the point I want to make, which I feel is more to the thread's theme think, is that organized religion in general is contrarian to Jesus's teachings...

Quote
when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I mean, as I read that, any mass gathering for the purpose of praising God is in direct violation of his word, right?

No...

It's saying, Don't be like those Hypocrites, that will only pray if people are around, like in the synagogues, and won't pray at home. When you pray at home, it's a more personal spiritual connection, that only you and God have at that moment, and God will reward you, because you are showing you are faithful in your heart, regardless of a synagogue.

It's like Jesus was teaching us how to Live peacefully, in a more personal sense, without the need of a church, synagogue. As, long as you personally have faith, they can kick you out of the synagogue, church, but God will still listen to you and reward you because you still have that faith.

I like the sentiment, but it flies in the face of all my experience (raised catholic with years of parochial school). Every mass I've been too is a public expression of piousness (not sure that's actually a word but I'll roll with it). I do appreciate the sense of community and service that are attached to some churches, vut it really ends there and doesn't support the holier than thou that goes with a vast majority of Christian sects.


I'm very bitter with religion in general btw if it doesn't show lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2020, 11:03:38 AM »
I agree that Christ taught love and not hate. I don't think it's right to hate anyone. However, why would disapproval count as hate? Parents can (rightly or wrongly) disapprove of their children's behavior, yet that doesn't imply that parents hate their children. And to press the issue deeper--why would condemnation amount to hate? Genocide and hate crimes are rightly condemned--yet I believe it is possible to love those who commit such crimes--not in the sense that you are wild about them, but in the sense that Luke Skywalker saw the good in Darth Vader and wanted him to come back to the Light Side. So if you grant that condemnation and disapproval do not necessarily imply hate, then the fact that many Christian denoms disapprove of or even condemn certain groups does not imply that those Christian denoms or their members hate those groups.

That's the application of modern context to historical teachings.   For many today, anything short of full acceptance - not tolerance, ACCEPTANCE - is by definition "hate".   I disagree with this (and have written about it frequently) but it's a tough argument to make in the age we live in.

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2020, 11:08:31 AM »
Ah the Bible, land of endless contradictions  :lol
I completely agree, but the point I want to make, which I feel is more to the thread's theme think, is that organized religion in general is contrarian to Jesus's teachings...

Quote
when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I mean, as I read that, any mass gathering for the purpose of praising God is in direct violation of his word, right?

No...

It's saying, Don't be like those Hypocrites, that will only pray if people are around, like in the synagogues, and won't pray at home. When you pray at home, it's a more personal spiritual connection, that only you and God have at that moment, and God will reward you, because you are showing you are faithful in your heart, regardless of a synagogue.

It's like Jesus was teaching us how to Live peacefully, in a more personal sense, without the need of a church, synagogue. As, long as you personally have faith, they can kick you out of the synagogue, church, but God will still listen to you and reward you because you still have that faith.

I like the sentiment, but it flies in the face of all my experience (raised catholic with years of parochial school). Every mass I've been too is a public expression of piousness (not sure that's actually a word but I'll roll with it). I do appreciate the sense of community and service that are attached to some churches, vut it really ends there and doesn't support the holier than thou that goes with a vast majority of Christian sects.


I'm very bitter with religion in general btw if it doesn't show lol

You and my dad.  :)  He's 81, and she STILL talks about "the Sisters".   

I think the only thing I would say is to not confuse the people with the institution.  I've referenced a couple times in another thread the time spent in churches around my late teens and early 20's, and this is a question I've asked multiple times.   I had deep problems with some people that I knew personally that would be the first ones in line for communion, singing the loudest, but would be miserable people in real life.   EVERY basket has a few bad apples.   It seems so obvious in other contexts; that some musicians lip-synch, doesn't mean all do.  That some athletes use steroids, doesn't mean all do.  That some wives (or husbands, no misogyny here) cheat, doesn't mean all do.

Offline H2

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2020, 11:12:55 AM »
I agree that Christ taught love and not hate. I don't think it's right to hate anyone. However, why would disapproval count as hate? Parents can (rightly or wrongly) disapprove of their children's behavior, yet that doesn't imply that parents hate their children. And to press the issue deeper--why would condemnation amount to hate? Genocide and hate crimes are rightly condemned--yet I believe it is possible to love those who commit such crimes--not in the sense that you are wild about them, but in the sense that Luke Skywalker saw the good in Darth Vader and wanted him to come back to the Light Side. So if you grant that condemnation and disapproval do not necessarily imply hate, then the fact that many Christian denoms disapprove of or even condemn certain groups does not imply that those Christian denoms or their members hate those groups.

That's the application of modern context to historical teachings.   For many today, anything short of full acceptance - not tolerance, ACCEPTANCE - is by definition "hate".   I disagree with this (and have written about it frequently) but it's a tough argument to make in the age we live in.
I think we can question some assumptions, too. What is 'love' when we say 'one ought to love their neighbor'? I think it means something like "have good will towards'. Then what is 'hate', and why is hate morally wrong? There are some senses of 'hate' where I think it is appropriate to hate someone, but not hate that is antithetical to love. For example, you might hate Trump justifiably, but simultaneously love him, in the sense that you want what is ultimately good for him (which could involve his repentance and turning away from who he is and what he's done).

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2020, 11:18:37 AM »
Ah the Bible, land of endless contradictions  :lol
I completely agree, but the point I want to make, which I feel is more to the thread's theme think, is that organized religion in general is contrarian to Jesus's teachings...

Quote
when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. ... But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I mean, as I read that, any mass gathering for the purpose of praising God is in direct violation of his word, right?

No...

It's saying, Don't be like those Hypocrites, that will only pray if people are around, like in the synagogues, and won't pray at home. When you pray at home, it's a more personal spiritual connection, that only you and God have at that moment, and God will reward you, because you are showing you are faithful in your heart, regardless of a synagogue.

It's like Jesus was teaching us how to Live peacefully, in a more personal sense, without the need of a church, synagogue. As, long as you personally have faith, they can kick you out of the synagogue, church, but God will still listen to you and reward you because you still have that faith.

I like the sentiment, but it flies in the face of all my experience (raised catholic with years of parochial school). Every mass I've been too is a public expression of piousness (not sure that's actually a word but I'll roll with it). I do appreciate the sense of community and service that are attached to some churches, vut it really ends there and doesn't support the holier than thou that goes with a vast majority of Christian sects.


I'm very bitter with religion in general btw if it doesn't show lol

You and my dad.  :)  He's 81, and she STILL talks about "the Sisters".   

I think the only thing I would say is to not confuse the people with the institution.  I've referenced a couple times in another thread the time spent in churches around my late teens and early 20's, and this is a question I've asked multiple times.   I had deep problems with some people that I knew personally that would be the first ones in line for communion, singing the loudest, but would be miserable people in real life.   EVERY basket has a few bad apples.   It seems so obvious in other contexts; that some musicians lip-synch, doesn't mean all do.  That some athletes use steroids, doesn't mean all do.  That some wives (or husbands, no misogyny here) cheat, doesn't mean all do.

Oh I don't, I got more than my share of good Christians between my family and in the AA fellowship, I just wished more of the good ones would call out the negative aspects, especially with catholicism and the kid diddling scandal. I even talked with my mom about it, a lifelong devout Spanish catholic, and she just sighs. She feels powerless over it but still holds onto the love of it, like it was a broken child or something.

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2020, 12:32:42 PM »
  For many today, anything short of full acceptance - not tolerance, ACCEPTANCE - is by definition "hate".   I disagree with this (and have written about it frequently) but it's a tough argument to make in the age we live in.

so true
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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2020, 03:38:21 PM »
What is 'love' when we say 'one ought to love their neighbor'? I think it means something like "have good will towards'.
No, that's not enough to count as love, especially in your context of when we say one ought to love their neighbor.  The illustration that Jesus used for that scenario, the Good Samaritan, shows exactly what "love your neighbor" means, and it isn't "have good will towards".
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Offline H2

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2020, 04:02:36 PM »
What is 'love' when we say 'one ought to love their neighbor'? I think it means something like "have good will towards'.
No, that's not enough to count as love, especially in your context of when we say one ought to love their neighbor.  The illustration that Jesus used for that scenario, the Good Samaritan, shows exactly what "love your neighbor" means, and it isn't "have good will towards".
I think I mean "have good will towards" in a more substantive way than the platitudinous, inefficacious way you might be thinking I mean. I would say that the Good Samaritan had good will towards the traveler and expressed this good will though action.

Offline H2

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2021, 09:16:09 AM »
Bump!

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2021, 11:16:09 AM »
I'll take the jump in the pool...


How I see the world is this, there is something more out there. Things we can't see, hear, smell, touch or taste, physically. These things are proven by Science, in what we call Frequencies, and Waves (Both Light and Sound). There are frequencies in both sound and light waves we Humans are not capable of perceiving. We do have what we call a sixth sense, some people have this capability to feel those frequencies, and also to see and sometimes hear them. Animals are capable of seeing, hearing, and feeling, things we are not, it's why they say "If you see the animals running, you better run with them." Or if they're a suddenly gone, something is going to happen. These animals have this sixth sense, and some are reliant on that sense of those frequencies and waves, like bats, dolphins, birds.

With the rays of the light, brought to us by the Sun, it gives us this warmth, and let's us see the world around us. The birds awaken each morning singing to the sun. The birds feed off the energy of the sun, animals feed off the energy of the sun, It's why Animals and life is alive when the sun is out. There are waves, and other Science related things, that the sun has that we need as humans, without these things we wouldn't be able to survive. Without our Father Sun, we wouldn't be able to thrive....That's why we Natives should be praying every morning to the sun, and why we rise to the sun, to be thankful for his energy and for him to give us the energy for the day.

Knowing this, has led me to view that all religions, cultures, and customs, of the world all speak about these very things. All are talking about how Nature provides and Nurtures us (I don't think it's coincidence why Nurture is closely similar to Nature), how we should be also connected to this Earth. God works with The Creator to make sure we are on the path set by him, which many call The Grand Design. Yet, he wanted us to enjoy having free will to think, and do anything we please, so we can experience life. Unlike the animals whom are predestined and don't have this free-will, they know what they are and what they have to do, and live like The Elk, Like the Fish, and Like the Birds. These you can see in their migratory patterns, and the way each animal lives it's life. They are also like us though, different intelligences, it's why some animals get eaten while others don't.

What I see happening is these Religions are being corrupted by the entity known as Satan, Lucifer, The Devil. These are all names given to the entity who is the one going against what God has set in The Grand Design.

Imagine a scientist, whom wants to see how things develop naturally, without any interference of any kind. He sets these things in motion so his experiment can have the intelligence, and almost same look, the genes, of the Scientist, and has it's own mind to control itself. This being is humanity. Now, one of his understudies, then tries to overtake this scientists experiment, by wanting to introduce the knowledge the Scientist knows as well to the experiment. But the Scientist doesn't want to teach his experiment that knowledge, because the scientist knows the experiment then won't be natural, as they can then be like The Scientist himself, and start messing with the experiment, and changing itself to what The Scientist didn't intend. Therefore, ruining the experiment and it would make the scientist have to start fom scratch again, because the experiment has failed due to a foreign interference introduced by the understudy.

That corruption of the Spirit, is what I feel is happening within the Catholic Church, and in many, religions of the world.

Jesus, I see, is an entity sent to us to teach the people, to learn to love again. And the christ spirit used scripture, as that is the only way, the people would be able to understand and grasp exactly what the christ spirit is trying to get us to comprehend. And in a way, the christ spirit could return again, as an idea, or using language and things we as humanity can understand the teachings again, or more the blueprint for The Grand Design.



I agree that Christ taught love and not hate. I don't think it's right to hate anyone. However, why would disapproval count as hate? Parents can (rightly or wrongly) disapprove of their children's behavior, yet that doesn't imply that parents hate their children. And to press the issue deeper--why would condemnation amount to hate? Genocide and hate crimes are rightly condemned--yet I believe it is possible to love those who commit such crimes--not in the sense that you are wild about them, but in the sense that Luke Skywalker saw the good in Darth Vader and wanted him to come back to the Light Side. So if you grant that condemnation and disapproval do not necessarily imply hate, then the fact that many Christian denoms disapprove of or even condemn certain groups does not imply that those Christian denoms or their members hate those groups.

That's the application of modern context to historical teachings.   For many today, anything short of full acceptance - not tolerance, ACCEPTANCE - is by definition "hate".   I disagree with this (and have written about it frequently) but it's a tough argument to make in the age we live in.

That is precisely how they viewed slaves, as people whom they considered uncivilized because they wouldn't accept their historical teachings and ways, and live like them. They were the ones the Catholics enslaved, and justified it by saying they didn't want to live like us whom is the rightful way of life. Basically, according to their definition of that word, these pagans, were not civilized.






« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 11:26:53 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2021, 12:18:57 PM »
What is 'love' when we say 'one ought to love their neighbor'? I think it means something like "have good will towards'.
No, that's not enough to count as love, especially in your context of when we say one ought to love their neighbor.  The illustration that Jesus used for that scenario, the Good Samaritan, shows exactly what "love your neighbor" means, and it isn't "have good will towards".
I think I mean "have good will towards" in a more substantive way than the platitudinous, inefficacious way you might be thinking I mean. I would say that the Good Samaritan had good will towards the traveler and expressed this good will though action.
Action was the point of the story.  To limit the definition to "have good will towards" misses the point of the story.  He was a Samaritan helping a Jew; there WAS no good will.  They hated each other more than modern Israelites and Palestinians, or Republicans and Democrats.  The very title of the parable, "The Good Samaritan", would have been seen as an oxymoron by both Jews AND Samaritans of that time.

The one that showed LOVE toward his neighbor was the Samaritan, who ACTED on his behalf.
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Offline H2

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2021, 09:01:16 AM »
What is 'love' when we say 'one ought to love their neighbor'? I think it means something like "have good will towards'.
No, that's not enough to count as love, especially in your context of when we say one ought to love their neighbor.  The illustration that Jesus used for that scenario, the Good Samaritan, shows exactly what "love your neighbor" means, and it isn't "have good will towards".
I think I mean "have good will towards" in a more substantive way than the platitudinous, inefficacious way you might be thinking I mean. I would say that the Good Samaritan had good will towards the traveler and expressed this good will though action.
Action was the point of the story.  To limit the definition to "have good will towards" misses the point of the story.  He was a Samaritan helping a Jew; there WAS no good will.  They hated each other more than modern Israelites and Palestinians, or Republicans and Democrats.  The very title of the parable, "The Good Samaritan", would have been seen as an oxymoron by both Jews AND Samaritans of that time.

The one that showed LOVE toward his neighbor was the Samaritan, who ACTED on his behalf.
I don't disagree with you. Perhaps I am thinking of "have good will towards" in a technical, philosophical sense. As you might be familiar, there is a long tradition of analyzing understanding "to love" as "to desire the good of and union with." Thomas Aquinas represents that point of view. And such love might necessarily unfold in action, though it is not identical to that action, per se.

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2021, 09:06:15 AM »
"Love" is a big word.  I love my wife, and I love my brother, and I love the UNC Tar Heels basketball team, and I love my alma mater, but the word means different things in all four cases.

The "love" in "loving your neighbor" involves action on the neighbor's behalf.  If my neighbor is hungry, keeping them in my thoughts isn't loving them.  Bringing them a sandwich is loving them.
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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2021, 09:53:40 AM »
"Love" is a big word.  I love my wife, and I love my brother, and I love the UNC Tar Heels basketball team, and I love my alma mater, but the word means different things in all four cases.

The "love" in "loving your neighbor" involves action on the neighbor's behalf.  If my neighbor is hungry, keeping them in my thoughts isn't loving them.  Bringing them a sandwich is loving them.

Well if we want to go into what a word means. You have to look at the History and Etymology for the words origin.

Quote
Middle English, from Old English lufu; akin to Old High German luba love, Old English lēof dear, Latin lubēre, libēre to please

I say this because in some languages, their is no way to transcribe some words in English. It's one that once you experience it, you'll understand what that word means.

So, "Love" in this instance would be an action word. One that you have to experience in order to understand. And sadly, some people do not experience love, and do not know what that experience is, so how can you expect them to know what love is?

I love you all, and I show it by continuing to post on these boards. Even though, we disagree at times. I still love DTF for what it is, and for basically existing. And I appreciate every one of you, which is the "I'll keep you in my thoughts". The Love is me bringing the sandwich, or in this case, participating in the DTF Secret Santa, that is how I show my love for this place.
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Offline H2

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2021, 11:58:42 AM »
"Love" is a big word.  I love my wife, and I love my brother, and I love the UNC Tar Heels basketball team, and I love my alma mater, but the word means different things in all four cases.

The "love" in "loving your neighbor" involves action on the neighbor's behalf.  If my neighbor is hungry, keeping them in my thoughts isn't loving them.  Bringing them a sandwich is loving them.
I agree that love often manifests in certain generous actions, but I'm not sure that's always the case. How love manifests might be circumstance-dependent, I would think. Suppose your neighbor is hungry, but you and your family are also hungry, and there aren't enough sandwiches to go around to feed everyone. Maybe you can still "love" your neighbor even though you prioritize your responsibility to care for your family and thus do not give your neighbor a sandwich. Extrapolating this idea, suppose you think that "loving your neighbor" should extend to the entire human race. Maybe you should love people you have never met. But your resources are scarce, and you might only be able to love certain individuals by "keeping them in your thoughts", as you put it, or "desiring the good of and union with them", as someone like Thomas Aquinas would put it.

EDIT: And maybe we can distinguish between different varieties of love--romantic love, love of objects, love of activities, and probably what people would call "agape love", just to name a few. I think Aquinas would be talking about agape love when defining love as "to have good will towards" or "to desire the good of and union with."

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2021, 12:13:14 PM »
I am not sure that the Biblical writers were composing from a background or intent of philosophy.  So, while reading Aquinas's thoughts on the subject can surely be instructive, I would not consider them necessary or the final word.

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2021, 12:48:48 PM »
I am not sure that the Biblical writers were composing from a background or intent of philosophy.  So, while reading Aquinas's thoughts on the subject can surely be instructive, I would not consider them necessary or the final word.
Gotcha. Yeah, I guess we kind of went off on a tangent. I was reflecting on the "Love your neighbor" commandment and the nature of love philosophically, where as you seemed to focus on how the biblical authors would have understood that commandment. I suppose I think "Love your neighbor" is a timeless principle and not a purely human invention, and even if the biblical authors and Aquinas had different ideas about the nature of love, still it is helpful to look at what Aquinas and other philosophers and theologians have to say insofar as one wants to understand this timeless principle

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2021, 02:19:38 PM »
 :tup
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2021, 05:12:17 PM »
I’ve stayed out until now because I’m not sure I would have much to contribute that wouldn’t seem to be stirring the pot. But now we have touched on a subject that means very much to me that I think that I can contribute to without ruffling feathers.

When it comes to agape, I think the basic definition of Greek scholar William Barclay sums it up extremely well:

Agapē has to do with the mind: it is not simply an emotion which rises unbidden in our hearts [as may be the case with phi·liʹa]; it is a principle by which we deliberately live. Agapē has supremely to do with the will. It is a conquest, a victory, and achievement. No one ever naturally loved his enemies. To love one’s enemies is a conquest of all our natural inclinations and emotions. This agapē . . . is in fact the power to love the unlovable, to love people whom we do not like.” - New Testament Words

This also comes back to what the Bible teaches about original sin. Original sin is not what the literal English phrase might seem to imply. It’s not that we’ve done anything wrong. Original sin simply means we were born into imperfection. We are born imperfect, because our original parents rebelled and became imperfect. from that point forward, they could not pass on anything but imperfection to their children.

Because of that, godly love is not natural to us. No one ever naturally loved their enemies. So it is a decision that we have to make. we decide we are going to reflect God‘s love in our life rather than be guided by our own imperfect impulses
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Re: Is Catholicism incompatible with true Christianity?
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2021, 09:44:12 PM »
So I've decided to go through with confirmation. I know not everyone might be thrilled with this, but my reasons are pretty straightforward.

1) Theoretical reasons -- The objections I've seen to Catholicism just don't convince me. These objections fall into two categories: objections to particular Catholic doctrines, and objections to the Catholic epistemology. I do have qualms with many Catholic doctrines. Why shouldn't we hold with firm conviction that we are going to Heaven? Protestantism emphasizes the "blessed assurance", but Catholicism denies this. How can penal substitution, foreshadowed by the Levitical sacrifices, coming to full actualization in Christ's death, be reconciled with a Catholic view of salvation as a progressive growth in righteousness? I don't know the answer to this, but I am content with the fact that Catholicism is not dogmatic about the theory of atonement.

These have been some of my biggest doubts about Catholicism. But...the epistemology makes sense. The OT Jews and Intertestamental Jews were not sola scriptura-ists, but rather their interpretations of Scripture were guided by their traditions. In much the same fashion, I don't see any problem, metaphysically or epistemologically, with thinking that the Holy Spirit guides the Church into all truth. After all, as a Protestant, I already believe that the Holy Spirit guided the hands of the authors of Scripture; why can't the activity of the HS be generalized further?

Thus, I don't think that the Catholic belief system is incoherent or susceptible to easy refutation.

Then what to do about problem cases? What to do when faced with particular doctrines and dogmas that just don't make sense to me? I'm still not really convinced, on rational grounds, that John 6 is a Eucharistic passage (which the Catholic Church teaches). I'm not convinced that birth control is immoral, on rational grounds--I don't understand why the Church is so under the thumb of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas. I'm not convinced that the penal substitutionary theory of atonement is false--than again, I've met many Catholics who express openness to this theory, and it is the key insight of the Reformation. So what to do with these problem cases? Well, I had (and continue to have) problems with biblical inerrancy. Was there really a worldwide flood? I doubt it. Was there really a single original human pair? I doubt it. Are there really no falsehoods in Scripture? It's so hard for me to accept this, but in many cases where I feel challenged, I honestly just hold the issue in abeyance. I admit that there are things I don't have an answer for. Now, this situation is categorically similar to my attitude towards the teaching of the Church--I don't know why we have to accept this Thomistic metaphysical view of ethics. But it's just a given, I suppose. My own rationality and reason would not lead me to the conclusions of Scripture or of the Church, and I suppose that is all right.

OK, so I don't think the objections I've heard to Catholicism are enough to rule it out. That, combined with the fact that the majority of Christians have been Catholic, and the fact that Protestantism has been a relatively recent movement, lead me to believe that the Catholic Church is, in fact, the Church that Jesus established and passed authority to.

2) Practical reasons....My spiritual growth stagnated significantly some years ago. I certainly notice my tendency towards sin. And I have tried different things....men's groups, confessing to close friends, etc.. It's perhaps not as bad as you might think, but it's perhaps worse than one might think. I've experienced so much distance from God during these experiences, and I long for the type of accountability that the Catholic Church has to offer. I know also that I am tempted towards what Catholics call "scrupulosity"--paranoia about wrongdoing. But I'll live with it. I really need to be pushed, and I hope the Catholic Church will help me through these issues.