Production of DT albums vs. the rest

[LKap13]

I've noticed that DT's album production is far more spotty and inconsistent that (almost all?) other bands. To give a concrete example, listen to Haken's latest album with good headphones and compare it to distance over time -- Haken's album has strong bass and all instruments sound crisp. Listen to Porcupine Tree's 1993 album -- it's crisper and better than the production of most DT albums. Anyway, the point is that when it comes to production, I can count on all other bands to have a generic and strong production, while with DT there's something "homemade" and low quality about it.

1) Do you agree?
2) If you agree, why do you think that is? Is it because DT does their production themselves (do they?) ? Or is it perhaps becacuse DT has so many instrument stems that it just inevitably leads to a more difficult production process.

Note, I"m not a music engineer so when I say production I'm referring to the overall sound quality of the album, which might mean mixing, mastering, etc I just dont know what those terms mean.

Best

[Lonk]

Except for the whole thing about drum sound for DT12, I have no problem with DT’s album sound. I don’t get low quality vibe at all.

[KevShmev]

I mostly agree.  DT's album in the 90's all sounded great, although Scenes had a few sound issues in spots, but the sound and production of their albums since have definitely been spotty and inconsistent for sure.  With the exception of a few songs, I literally never listen to A Dramatic Turn of Events anymore because of how frustrating the sound is, and that is a shame cause that song from a songwriting standpoint is one of their best of the last 20 years.  The self-titled and Distance over Time were both travesties in the sense that the volume levels of both were cranked way too much, resulting in ear fatigue after several songs.  Fortunately, I got the HD versions of both, which were improvements, but it's a shame that the normal releases were so poor.  And don't even get me started on how dirty they did with Mangini in regards to his drum sound on his first few albums with the band...

I don't buy the "DT's stuff is hard to mix because there is so much going on" excuse I have heard over the years.  There was a lot going on instrumentally on both Awake and Images and Words, and both of those albums sound tremendous. 

Listening to DT on shuffle sometimes really pin points how much better the 90's albums are when it comes to sound and mix.  The difference is glaring when bouncing around from era to era on shuffle.

[MoraWintersoul]

Up to the point where they started producing themselves, all albums sounded incredible. Basically no band will ever be able to do it themselves. But DT's albums sound better than many other bands I listen to, so it's still not too bad.

[nikatapi]

I mostly agree.  DT's album in the 90's all sounded great, although Scenes had a few sound issues in spots, but the sound and production of their albums since have definitely been spotty and inconsistent for sure.  With the exception of a few songs, I literally never listen to A Dramatic Turn of Events anymore because of how frustrating the sound is, and that is a shame cause that song from a songwriting standpoint is one of their best of the last 20 years.  The self-titled and Distance over Time were both travesties in the sense that the volume levels of both were cranked way too much, resulting in ear fatigue after several songs.  Fortunately, I got the HD versions of both, which were improvements, but it's a shame that the normal releases were so poor.  And don't even get me started on how dirty they did with Mangini in regards to his drum sound on his first few albums with the band...

I don't buy the "DT's stuff is hard to mix because there is so much going on" excuse I have heard over the years.  There was a lot going on instrumentally on both Awake and Images and Words, and both of those albums sound tremendous. 

Listening to DT on shuffle sometimes really pin points how much better the 90's albums are when it comes to sound and mix.  The difference is glaring when bouncing around from era to era on shuffle.

Agree quite a lot with your points. I think starting after Octavarium, the albums have been very inconsistent in terms of production, especially the ones with JP as the sole producer, with the worst offender being A Dramatic Turn Of Events. Distance Over Time definitely is the best sounding album in the post-MP era for me, but when you go back to Awake or Six Degrees, you can definitely tell that the sound is worse on the recent albums.

[Cool Chris]

I don't buy a lot of music these days, but I have wondered how the sound of DTs albums compare to other albums in the same genre released around the same time. At this point in their career, they are not a band that does anything unique so I had assumed it the production, sound, dynamics, and all that stuff I do not understand was similar.

[Architeuthis]

I like the production of most DT albums. I actually think that Images and Words sounds the worst, but that's not because of the mix or production. It's the electronic drums that throw me off, otherwise a great album. Portnoy's playing is fine, but a real drum sound would have been much better.
 While d/t has very good production, the rhythm guitars are a bit too trebly and too much chorus on the vocals. The drums, bass, and keys sound fantastic.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

I feel as though DT went through a period where their production was a bit spotty, but DOT was a return to form. One of my favorite-sounding albums in recent memory.

[Max Kuehnau]

I've noticed that DT's album production is far more spotty and inconsistent that (almost all?) other bands. To give a concrete example, listen to Haken's latest album with good headphones and compare it to distance over time -- Haken's album has strong bass and all instruments sound crisp. Listen to Porcupine Tree's 1993 album -- it's crisper and better than the production of most DT albums. Anyway, the point is that when it comes to production, I can count on all other bands to have a generic and strong production, while with DT there's something "homemade" and low quality about it.

1) Do you agree?
2) If you agree, why do you think that is? Is it because DT does their production themselves (do they?) ? Or is it perhaps becacuse DT has so many instrument stems that it just inevitably leads to a more difficult production process.

Note, I"m not a music engineer so when I say production I'm referring to the overall sound quality of the album, which might mean mixing, mastering, etc I just dont know what those terms mean.

Best

I'm no engineer either, but: IMHO, the first three albums had good production, as well as ADTOE and DT12 (the 24 bit Hi res versions only though, those of SC and BC/SL as well to some degree) and possibly even TA (which is similar to Awake in that respect). That's about it. (check the dynamic range database for reference if you want). All the other albums could have been better if the record companies didn't insist on that bloody compression. (hence why I mentioned that the Hi res 24 bit versions are better)

[pg1067]

I don't agree at all.

While I'm not familiar with either of the other two albums you mentioned, I've heard tons and tons of inconsistent production over the nearly 40 years that I've been listening to pop/rock/metal music.

Think Metallica's AJFA and Death Magnetic.  Think Rush's Vapor Trails.

Aside from the fact that the bass never seems to get the space it deserves (which is hardly new or unique to DT), I have no issues at all with the production of DT albums.

[Max Kuehnau]

I don't agree at all.

While I'm not familiar with either of the other two albums you mentioned, I've heard tons and tons of inconsistent production over the nearly 40 years that I've been listening to pop/rock/metal music.

Think Metallica's AJFA and Death Magnetic.  Think Rush's Vapor Trails.

Aside from the fact that the bass never seems to get the space it deserves (which is hardly new or unique to DT), I have no issues at all with the production of DT albums.

yeah, AJFA and Vapor Trails are not great with regard to the production, particularly Vapor Trails

[Volante99]

DT has definitely had lots of production issues over the years. It’s been fairly well documented by audiophile crowd over the years. I think it’s noticeable because it runs counter to their amazing musicianship.

Their best sounding albums are Awake and Astonishing, in my opinion.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again; my main complaint with Mangini era is that everything sounds so processed/over produced. It sounds like all the parts were done by people on different sides of the planet and cobbled together in ProTools. It doesn’t sound like a band playing together. I don’t need to have Mangini sound like MIDI EzDrummer2.0 perfection. I don’t need Petrucci to sound like he’s on Mount Everest every time he does a solo. I want a natural sound; I want to hear the wood of Mangini’s sticks cracking off the aluminum of the drums, natural reverb, actual acoustical sounds of a band playing together. I want to hear a stripped down Dream Theater. Get the guys in room, set some mics up and hit the record button. The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

[Dream Team]

That would be awesome ^

[Mister Gold]

Funny that I come across this thread just as I start listening to Awake with a new set of headphones! While I don't think any of DT's albums compare to the bad production you might hear on certain Metallica albums or Rush's Vapor Trails, I'd have to agree that their consistency has been more spotty since they started self-producing in the 2000's onward. Though I'd say Scenes and Six Degrees both sound pretty great too.

Awake just sounds... immaculate. Genuinely one of the finest sounding albums out there IMO.

[LKap13]

It’s been fairly well documented by audiophile crowd over the years. I think it’s noticeable because it runs counter to their amazing musicianship.

Exactly my point

[Trav86]

The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

I just went back and watched the Take This For the Pain doc, with the extended jamming with MM. You're totally right!
The way JP described D/T leading up to it's release, I was expecting something more like this. I think JP may get too in the weeds trying to make everything sound perfect that it's not organic sounding anymore.

[Volante99]

The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

I just went back and watched the Take This For the Pain doc, with the extended jamming with MM. You're totally right!
The way JP described D/T leading up to it's release, I was expecting something more like this. I think JP may get too in the weeds trying to make everything sound perfect that it's not organic sounding anymore.

Right, 100% agree. When DT was hyping the album they talked about playing together more, locking themselves in this cabin setting in the middle of nowhere etc etc. Don’t get me wrong, good album and I understand they were referring more to the writing process but that album sounds like it could have been cut and pasted in a lab by Petrucci himself- I don’t get the vibe of “5 guys in a cabin in the woods”.

Petrucci definitely loves a polished sound and I can’t blame him if that’s the sound he feels best for his work- but I do wish sometimes they would get back to basics, let the natural, organic sounds come through. They are such talented musicians, I feel like some of the magic gets lost when you try to over produce things.

[Nachtmerrie]

The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

I just went back and watched the Take This For the Pain doc, with the extended jamming with MM. You're totally right!
The way JP described D/T leading up to it's release, I was expecting something more like this. I think JP may get too in the weeds trying to make everything sound perfect that it's not organic sounding anymore.

Right, 100% agree. When DT was hyping the album they talked about playing together more, locking themselves in this cabin setting in the middle of nowhere etc etc. Don’t get me wrong, good album and I understand they were referring more to the writing process but that album sounds like it could have been cut and pasted in a lab by Petrucci himself- I don’t get the vibe of “5 guys in a cabin in the woods”.

Petrucci definitely loves a polished sound and I can’t blame him if that’s the sound he feels best for his work- but I do wish sometimes they would get back to basics, let the natural, organic sounds come through. They are such talented musicians, I feel like some of the magic gets lost when you try to over produce things.

I'm not a musician so I have zero knowledge about making music or producing. I can only judge based on what I'm listening to and I would say overproducing and creating a polished sound at itself isn't a problem when it's done the right way.
With DT it becomes a problem because every album has its issues whether it's Mangini's drum sounds, Myung being hidden in the mix or other issues being mentioned.
The albums just sound weak compared to many other bands I love. When I'm listening to the latest Haken, Leprous or TesseracT albums I'm loving the music but also really enjoy the overall sound quality of the album. With DT that is just not the case and I would really like them to bring in someone from outside the band for certain parts of the proces like drumsound. A lot of Inside Out bands are working with Jens Bogren and I think it's safe to say they all sound great. Some goes for Nolly Getgood.

[LKap13]

I'm not a musician so I have zero knowledge about making music or producing. I can only judge based on what I'm listening to and I would say overproducing and creating a polished sound at itself isn't a problem when it's done the right way.
With DT it becomes a problem because every album has its issues whether it's Mangini's drum sounds, Myung being hidden in the mix or other issues being mentioned.
The albums just sound weak compared to many other bands I love. When I'm listening to the latest Haken, Leprous or TesseracT albums I'm loving the music but also really enjoy the overall sound quality of the album. With DT that is just not the case and I would really like them to bring in someone from outside the band for certain parts of the proces like drumsound. A lot of Inside Out bands are working with Jens Bogren and I think it's safe to say they all sound great. Some goes for Nolly Getgood.

Totally agree. I wish they would hire outside people to do the production. I think producing has become a hobby of JP's and I understand him wanting to have control over that aspect of things, but can't help but wonder what post sdoit records would sound like with expert help

[Volante99]

The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

I just went back and watched the Take This For the Pain doc, with the extended jamming with MM. You're totally right!
The way JP described D/T leading up to it's release, I was expecting something more like this. I think JP may get too in the weeds trying to make everything sound perfect that it's not organic sounding anymore.

Right, 100% agree. When DT was hyping the album they talked about playing together more, locking themselves in this cabin setting in the middle of nowhere etc etc. Don’t get me wrong, good album and I understand they were referring more to the writing process but that album sounds like it could have been cut and pasted in a lab by Petrucci himself- I don’t get the vibe of “5 guys in a cabin in the woods”.

Petrucci definitely loves a polished sound and I can’t blame him if that’s the sound he feels best for his work- but I do wish sometimes they would get back to basics, let the natural, organic sounds come through. They are such talented musicians, I feel like some of the magic gets lost when you try to over produce things.

I'm not a musician so I have zero knowledge about making music or producing. I can only judge based on what I'm listening to and I would say overproducing and creating a polished sound at itself isn't a problem when it's done the right way.
With DT it becomes a problem because every album has its issues whether it's Mangini's drum sounds, Myung being hidden in the mix or other issues being mentioned.
The albums just sound weak compared to many other bands I love. When I'm listening to the latest Haken, Leprous or TesseracT albums I'm loving the music but also really enjoy the overall sound quality of the album. With DT that is just not the case and I would really like them to bring in someone from outside the band for certain parts of the proces like drumsound. A lot of Inside Out bands are working with Jens Bogren and I think it's safe to say they all sound great. Some goes for Nolly Getgood.

I think trying to sound like all of these modern prog metal bands (Periphery, Animals as Leaders etc) is part of the problem. Haken’s “Mountain” sounds nice but “Vector” suffers from some of the same issues as Mangini-era DT. To be fair to DT, 95% of metal album drums sound triggered/overproduced.

As cliche/obvious as it sounds I think they should get Steven Wilson- listen to Raven Refused to Sing and Hand Cannot Erase- the man knows how to record natural/organic sounding drums. Opeth’s “Heritage” also sounds amazing- on some high end speakers those albums sound like the band is playing in the room with you; which is the mark of a well produced album (my philosophy anyway).

Intronaut is another example of a modern metal band that knows how to record a good drum sound- check them out.

[pg1067]

DT has definitely had lots of production issues over the years. It’s been fairly well documented by audiophile crowd over the years.

The "audiophile crowd" is a small minority and about the only folks that are bothered by this stuff.

I also happen to believe that almost no one would have known or cared about the snare sound on I&W had MP not made such a public stink about it.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again; my main complaint with Mangini era is that everything sounds so processed/over produced. It sounds like all the parts were done by people on different sides of the planet and cobbled together in ProTools. It doesn’t sound like a band playing together. I don’t need to have Mangini sound like MIDI EzDrummer2.0 perfection. I don’t need Petrucci to sound like he’s on Mount Everest every time he does a solo. I want a natural sound; I want to hear the wood of Mangini’s sticks cracking off the aluminum of the drums, natural reverb, actual acoustical sounds of a band playing together. I want to hear a stripped down Dream Theater. Get the guys in room, set some mics up and hit the record button. The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

I can't really disagree with any of that, but it doesn't really detract from my enjoyment of the material.

[Dream Team]

Honestly most of my issues since they started self-producing have been with the snare. Six Degrees, ADTOE, and DT12 all had naff snare sounds, and on ADTOE the entire kit wasn’t loud enough. Other than that it’s been pretty minor.

[Madman Shepherd]

I think DT's production "issues" are overblown. I'm no audiophile but I can tell a good sounding album when I hear it. That said, most DT albums range from very good sounding to excellent. I would say Falling Into Infinity sounds the best. Obviously WDADU sounds pretty bad but I can take *almost* any album from great to decent to bad and after a minute tune out whatever criticisms I have and just enjoy the music.

[Cool Chris]

Aside from the fact that the bass never seems to get the space it deserves (which is hardly new or unique to DT)

I am not audiophile and don't get caught up in the production of an album hardly ever. But I was thinking about this the other day, and nearly started a new post about it.  It seems to my ears the bass is generally much more prominent in music from the 70s-80s than it has been in the 2000s-onward (rock/metal in this case). Is it me or is that the direction music (either writing or production) has gone?

[pg1067]

Aside from the fact that the bass never seems to get the space it deserves (which is hardly new or unique to DT)

I am not audiophile and don't get caught up in the production of an album hardly ever. But I was thinking about this the other day, and nearly started a new post about it.  It seems to my ears the bass is generally much more prominent in music from the 70s-80s than it has been in the 2000s-onward (rock/metal in this case). Is it me or is that the direction music (either writing or production) has gone?

I don't know.  I think it's probably more of a style thing.  A lot of 80s metal had inaudible bass being played by pick players who were just duplicating the rhythm guitar.  There were plenty of standout exceptions (e.g., Steve Harris), but I think standout bass playing was the exception, rather than the rule, in 80s metal.

I remember the first few times I saw DT, I was surprised by how much JM was doing that I hadn't heard on the albums.

[Volante99]

DT has definitely had lots of production issues over the years. It’s been fairly well documented by audiophile crowd over the years.

The "audiophile crowd" is a small minority and about the only folks that are bothered by this stuff.

I also happen to believe that almost no one would have known or cared about the snare sound on I&W had MP not made such a public stink about it.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again; my main complaint with Mangini era is that everything sounds so processed/over produced. It sounds like all the parts were done by people on different sides of the planet and cobbled together in ProTools. It doesn’t sound like a band playing together. I don’t need to have Mangini sound like MIDI EzDrummer2.0 perfection. I don’t need Petrucci to sound like he’s on Mount Everest every time he does a solo. I want a natural sound; I want to hear the wood of Mangini’s sticks cracking off the aluminum of the drums, natural reverb, actual acoustical sounds of a band playing together. I want to hear a stripped down Dream Theater. Get the guys in room, set some mics up and hit the record button. The Mangini Audition footage is the best MM and JM have sounded in the last decade.

I can't really disagree with any of that, but it doesn't really detract from my enjoyment of the material.

I disagree that it’s “only” the audiophile crowd who notices the production quality of music.

You may not care about the audio quality of a recording but some people do and I, personally, think it’s an important aspect of the enjoyment of the music as an overall package. Whether it’s noticed consciously or subconsciously. I think it’s an important aspect to music appreciation, not only for “complaining” purposes but being able to appreciate what a really good recording and audio production sounds like.

[KevShmev]

I am not audiophile and don't get caught up in the production of an album hardly ever. But I was thinking about this the other day, and nearly started a new post about it.  It seems to my ears the bass is generally much more prominent in music from the 70s-80s than it has been in the 2000s-onward (rock/metal in this case). Is it me or is that the direction music (either writing or production) has gone?

My guess is that the loudness wars have smashed the sound of the bass guitar in a lot of newer albums.  With everything so compressed together, it is easier for the bass to get lost in the mix beneath the guitar and drums (on rock albums, specifically).  The production values of the 70's and 80's allowed the music to breathe more, and each instrument had its own space.  Plus, the dead drum sound was kind of a thing in the 70's (generally speaking, there were exceptions), so there was simply more room in those frequencies for the bass to be heard. 

[pg1067]

I disagree that it’s “only” the audiophile crowd who notices the production quality of music.

You may not care about the audio quality of a recording but some people do and I, personally, think it’s an important aspect of the enjoyment of the music as an overall package. Whether it’s noticed consciously or subconsciously. I think it’s an important aspect to music appreciation, not only for “complaining” purposes but being able to appreciate what a really good recording and audio production sounds like.

I wasn't making a broad statement about production not mattering.  What I was saying is that a lot of the issues mentioned with DT albums are incredibly nit picky and only an issue for a relatively small minority.

[MoraWintersoul]

I wasn't making a broad statement about production not mattering.  What I was saying is that a lot of the issues mentioned with DT albums are incredibly nit picky and only an issue for a relatively small minority.

Sorry to be the second person challenging you in particular but I also disagree. A lot of people can't point out what's "wrong", but they can tell. I would say "oh they did this and that with the drum sound that I don't like" (and I'm no audiophile, a lot of the times I can't even locate the problem to one particular part of the kit like some people do), and if I played it to someone who isn't aware how big of a deal production is in forming our impressions, they would just say "oh this doesn't rock as hard as that other thing". When I first heard IAW as a teen, I couldn't point out OH A TRIGGERED SNARE but I did think "huh this sounds older than it is, kinda like... glam metal", because glam metal bands like Firehouse and Cinderella were a big part of my library back then. And the triggered snare is that common point and reference.

Over time I learned to tolerate bad production, because I'm a metal fan, and it seems like a only few of my favorite bands have hooked up with very talented mixers and stayed with them and avoided letting the master ruin things, and the rest frequently run into problems somewhere along the way, and that's the ones that have a good taste in sound to begin with. However, for Dream Theater it's a very easy fix: stop producing your own albums. Seriously, musicians are kinda deaf.

[bosk1]

What I was saying is that a lot of the issues mentioned with DT albums are incredibly nit picky and only an issue for a relatively small minority.

Exactly this.  Others outside that "small minority" may be able to tell.  But hardly anyone dislikes any of it or feels it is an issue. 

The only albums where the production sounds odd to me are Awake and FII--the former in a way that I sometimes find a bit distracting, and the latter in a way that, once I had time to digest it, actually sounds good.  (I am not including WDADU) 

listen to Haken's latest album with good headphones and compare it to distance over time ... Listen to Porcupine Tree's 1993 album ...

Not if you paid me!    I don't really care how incredible the production is if the music itself is vomit-inducing or mind-numbingly dull. 

[npiazza91]

To be honest, I never understood why people say FII’s production is so great. To me it sounds very airy, it lacks a lot of thickness, it doesn’t have a “full” sound. You can hear it especially on a song like New Millennium.

I can name at least five albums that I think have a better sounding production. Scenes From a Memory and Octavarium immediately come to mind.

[gzarruk]

In the end, this is all a matter of opinion and personal tastes. To me, all DT studio albums sound quite good (well, WDADU might be the exception, but I don't find that one to be awful either). Are there some that sound better than others? Sure, but that's where your own personal taste comes to play.
I see a lot of admiration for Awake's sound, but to me it's far from their best sounding album, it just sounds like there's too much reverb in there. Others say D/T doesn't sound as good, but to me it's fantastic.

I do agree, though, that they could benefit from some external input in the sound/production area because I think it's good to shake things up every once in a while.

[Lax]

It's really hard to talk about it like a professionnal but there are huge differences sometimes and I too regret some choices sometimes

WDADU has a low general volume and sub-bass, I guess it's pre-wall of sound era, and it reminds me of the sound of tapes I had as a child

Images & Words Apart the snare sound that sometimes go crazy RATATA because of triggers, I really can't imagine this album with another sound, I like how each instrument has air and is heard.
That takes me to a change of seasons, which is if I remember well in the same kind of sound but with less or without the triggers ? And I wonder if I don't prefer I&W's sound ^^

Awaked is solid and more balanced over frequencies, I have the strange feeling that JP is a little drowned in the mix

FII is a little strange, it lacks lows, and maybe even some mids, it's a little killing the groove and to me it sounds like it's played on a far away speaker

Scenes and Six degrees are really well mixed modern albums

Then began the wall of sound era to me, all the following albums lack air to let us hear clearly the instruments.
Obviously it's not terrible yet on TrainoT or Octavarium, but it's crescendo and nowadays when you compare D/T CD and Bluray, it feel like the CD is a demo version for subwoofers with no speakers...

It's really hard when it's not your job, but I wanted to share my feeling about it, loudness war in production is killing dynamics and space for multiple tracks to express their tone range.
That's terrible for complicated prog because it kills the groove at first and then the enjoyment of hearing a three voiced harmony (since it's crunched into a blur).

I think they have nothing to lose mixing it lower and less compressed, it's not a mainstream U2 album or RNB, it's a niche band

[qed]

Honestly most of my issues since they started self-producing have been with the snare. Six Degrees, ADTOE, and DT12 all had naff snare sounds, and on ADTOE the entire kit wasn’t loud enough. Other than that it’s been pretty minor.

http://music-torrent.net/Dream-Theater-2019-Dramatic-Turn-of-Events-RE

[bosk1]

Honestly most of my issues since they started self-producing have been with the snare. Six Degrees, ADTOE, and DT12 all had naff snare sounds, and on ADTOE the entire kit wasn’t loud enough. Other than that it’s been pretty minor.

*snip*

Goodbye.