The "Acting" Thread

[Stadler]

So...  I watched an episode of "Billions" this weekend - S5, E1, for those that care - and I was struck by the difference in acting in that show.  Earlier, there were some comments (by me, largely) about Brad Pitt's "acting", then there was a little mini-discussion in the "Last movie..." thread about Leo and Joaquin.   

What is it that makes good acting?   I know for me, more and more I'm seeing actors praised for either hamming it up to gross extremes, or just "playing themselves", and that to me isn't good acting.  I don't understand this desire to fill roles with actors that come from the Yngwie Malmsteen school of subtlety, or are just pre-made cookie cutter actors that merely represent the desired character traits.

I haven't seen The Joker movie yet (and may not); I certainly do not think Joaquin Phoenix is a lunatic serial killer in real life and was just projecting, but almost every Joker portrayal to date has been about bombast (even Heath Ledger's, which at least contrasted the bombast with something more tangible), but nonetheless, I'm not qualified to talk about it.  But the aforementioned Billions:   Paul Giamatti took my breath away in that episode.  I haven't seen even one episode of that series, and yet in watching that episode, I knew in 15 minutes from his tone, his eyes, his body language that he was the reluctant ex-husband of Maggie Siff's character.  I knew he was morally challenged and perhaps hasn't lived up to his (or his parents, or his wife's) standards, and hated himself for it.   I knew his life was a constant battle between his heart, his head and his loins, and that there were no clear winners, only losers.   He communicated those things so viscerally, so clearly, it was a joy to watch.  I was walking through the room and I actually stopped and stood there watching for the better part of 20 minutes before I sat down and committed to the episode. 

I'll get more into it if the conversation warrants, but contrast that with other characters/actors in that show that seemed more of a cliche or trope at this point than the communication of any deep meaning or revelation.

[Cool Chris]

Nicholas Meyer has said "What's the difference between an actor and a movie star? An actor is pretending that they are someone else; a movie star is pretending that someone else is them." That's cumbersome, and I don't know if I fully agree with it. But I get what he is saying. Watch The Godfather and you'll see Brando isn't treating it as Vito is some embodiment of him. He is treating it as him embodying this character of Vito Corleone.

[Adami]

I think it's a fantastic question, as long as it's not too narrow.

What makes a good musician? What makes a good painter or drawer? Impossible to fully define.

Is James Hetfield a bad guitarist because he isn't nearly as technically proficient as say John Petrucci? Is Michael Angelo Baito a better musician than Bob Dylan because is so much more technically proficient? Is late era Jackson Pollack better or worse than Davinci?

I guess it just depends on 1) What touches you as a viewer 2) What they were trying to accomplish.

[El Barto]

To me the great actor is somebody who can play all facets of a character. It's not enough to just do the right voice and get the quirky mannerisms right. You have to be able to be the character when he's happy, sad, banging his wife, drunk off his ass, suicidally despondent, or overcome watching his kid graduate. Bad actors fail when they go outside of their comfort zones. Good actors will never let you realize they're pretending to be someone else. Like Lemmon said, look to the person you're acting with and tell the truth.

Let's not undervalue the importance of character actors, though. "Just playing themselves" is often times wonderful. Consider one of my very favorite movies, Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Richard Dreyfus is perfect in his roll. Yet it's not really any different than the character he played in Jaws. I suspect he's played the same guy a dozen other times. He's not going to show up on anybody's best actors list, but he was perfect in both cases. Which takes us to Terri Garr, and she is one or my favorite actresses. In CE she plays the putout housewife. The same role she's played a dozen times before. Yet she's, again, perfect for it and the film wouldn't be the same without her.

[Cool Chris]

Like Lemmon said, look to the person you're acting with and tell the truth.

I thought that was James Cagney?

[Indiscipline]

If we talk live theatre, I could attempt a pretty reliable answer (totally subjective anyway), if we talk about movies, I can only give a spectator's one (and in that case the question of reference should be "what makes successful acting?"), and specific to drama acting, because comedy is more elusive and  more rooted in innate qualities.

Given the first two "immediate" requisites - 1: minimal acceptable amount of talent, intelligence, technical soundness, and 2: being a powerful object of visual desire (good looks have nothing to do with it: ex. we "like" to watch Danny DeVito) - the real deal, imo, is made or broken by script and direction, i.e. the factors allowing the actor/actress to "play all facets of a character", as El Barto very correctly said. It's quite difficult to do it without enough facets (script) and the "right" paths (direction).

[The Walrus]

I don't know enough about acting to say what makes a good actor vs. a movie star. But I can say there are some people in certain roles that make me feel like they are real, and complex, and lifelike, and I think that's the sign of a good actor or actress, I suppose - when whatever role they're playing convinces you of their actions. When Heath Ledger makes up his backstories in The Dark Knight, or threatens people, it feels real and terrifying. Lena Headey as Cersei Lannister. Bryan Cranston as Walter White, Aaron Paul as Jesse Pinkman. Leonardo DiCaprio as Calvin Candie. Those roles make me feel like I'm watching more than just a character; they are complex and the actor/actress is delivering the lines and performance in such a convincing way that they are believable. Even Ledger's Joker, despite the makeup and get-up and over-the-top terrorism, feels believable because he immerses himself so deeply into the character and is consistent with it.

I'd put Ed Harris as The Man In Black from Westworld - especially season 1 - in this role. Or Anthony Hopkins as Dr. Robert Ford; I don't feel like I'm watching Hopkins, I feel like I'm watching a brilliant scientist ruminate on life and the existential problem he has created for the world.

Very few things amaze me as much as a good actor in 'just the right role.'

[El Barto]

Like Lemmon said, look to the person you're acting with and tell the truth.

I thought that was James Cagney?

I think Cagney said "look into the camera and tell the truth." Honestly, though, it might just be one of those things that's apocryphally attributed to whoever sounds plausible.

[gmillerdrake]

If I 'forget' who the actor/actress is when I'm watching the movie/tv show......to me that's a sign of a good actor/actress. Example, Mads Mikkelsen in the NBC show 'Hannibal' was 100% Hannibal Lecter. You never once think of it as Mikkelsen playing Lecter. But in contrast, 9 times out of 10 it's always Brad Pitt playing someone. You always see Brad Pitt as Brad Pitt playing (insert character)  And IMO....that's a large portion of the actors/actresses out there so I'm not trying to pick on Brad Pitt.

So, if you as an actor/actress make me forget who you are and convince me you're that character.....that's the line for me. There are some out there who do it on a regular basis....some do it every now and then.....and some have never done it. 

[Cool Chris]

If I 'forget' who the actor/actress is when I'm watching the movie/tv show......to me that's a sign of a good actor/actress.

That's a solid point, but only fair to a degree. You can't watch a Cary Grant film without thinking it's Cary Grant. You know it's Roger Thornhill on the screen, but part of your mind will always see Cary Grant. That isn't a knock on his abilities; he is right there at the top with anyone. It's just his style, personality and characteristics transcend Roger Thornhill or anyone he portrays on film.

[Adami]

If I 'forget' who the actor/actress is when I'm watching the movie/tv show......to me that's a sign of a good actor/actress. Example, Mads Mikkelsen in the NBC show 'Hannibal' was 100% Hannibal Lecter. You never once think of it as Mikkelsen playing Lecter. But in contrast, 9 times out of 10 it's always Brad Pitt playing someone. You always see Brad Pitt as Brad Pitt playing (insert character)  And IMO....that's a large portion of the actors/actresses out there so I'm not trying to pick on Brad Pitt.

So, if you as an actor/actress make me forget who you are and convince me you're that character.....that's the line for me. There are some out there who do it on a regular basis....some do it every now and then.....and some have never done it.

That's definitely a great sign. I remember watching Phantom Thread (I know it's not a well liked movie) and being shocked that I didn't see Daniel Day Lewis on screen, but only saw his character. It was odd because, as far as I know, this was one of the very very few roles he played in his natural accent. So he had no big make up, no accent, and was as close to being Daniel Day Lewis as he had been in decades and yet I only saw his character.

[MirrorMask]

If I 'forget' who the actor/actress is when I'm watching the movie/tv show......to me that's a sign of a good actor/actress.

I generally agree, but there's a certain level of fame you can't get past of. Sure, you get immersed in the story, but you know who's who.

Case in point: I recently watched, for the first time, the Godfather trilogy. In the first two movies, I saw Michael Corleone. In the third one, made a long time after those two, I saw Al Pacino. He's just too famous and recognizable. Sure, at a certain point you get immersed, but the thought is always there.

I think another good sign of being good is being convincing in more than a role. Being able to make you feel the new character rather than the previous one you're used to. A recent example - after seeing for years Jim Parsons playing Sheldon Cooper in The Big Bang Theory, I saw him portraying a nasty, vicious, vile and slimey producer in Hollywood (name of a Netflix miniseries), he was suprisingly convincing at being a total despicable asshole. There was no "hey, look, it's Sheldon!" or "Nah, I can't believe him, I can see Sheldon beneath the surface". He was really good.

And for some other random name dropping, I nominate for recent TV shows as actors who completely and totally inhabitate the character making said character the best thing about the show and every scene in which they are a sight to behold:
- Travis Fimmel as Ragnar Lothbrok (Vikings)
- Cillian Murphy as Thomas Shelby (Peaky Blinders)

Those two alone made the shows worthwile to watch. Impressive performances made believeable just with a look or a very short sentence.

[El Barto]

If I 'forget' who the actor/actress is when I'm watching the movie/tv show......to me that's a sign of a good actor/actress.

That's a solid point, but only fair to a degree. You can't watch a Cary Grant film without thinking it's Cary Grant. You know it's Roger Thornhill on the screen, but part of your mind will always see Cary Grant. That isn't a knock on his abilities; he is right there at the top with anyone. It's just his style, personality and characteristics transcend Roger Thornhill or anyone he portrays on film.

Gregory Peck. You're never not aware that you're watching Gregory Peck, but he still makes you believe in the characters he portrayed. He might actually be the textbook example of an actor playing himself. He was Atticus Finch because he was Atticus Finch. Hell, the girl that played Scout called him Atticus til the day he died (frequently, they remained very close). Some of his best characters strike me as exactly how Peck himself would have behaved in his character's shoes. Jim McCay in the Big Country, caring more about his own self respect than the half-assed adulation of others. Captain Keith Mallory, doing a shit job because it needs to be done and he understands that he's the only guy that can do it. By all accounts perfect descriptions of the real life Peck. Perhaps in the context of this discussion that's a cheat, but I'm not going to agree with a definition of acting that doesn't respect what he did.

[gmillerdrake]

And for some other random name dropping, I nominate for recent TV shows as actors who completely and totally inhabitate the character making said character the best thing about the show and every scene in which they are a sight to behold:
- Travis Fimmel as Ragnar Lothbrok (Vikings)
- Cillian Murphy as Thomas Shelby (Peaky Blinders)

Those two alone made the shows worthwile to watch. Impressive performances made believeable just with a look or a very short sentence.

So true. Those two are great. Even someone like Katee Sackhoff is impressing me. She played Starbuck on Battlestar Galactica really well....she was pretty good at Cpt. Niko on 'Another Life'.....and I've been watching Longmire and she's playing a Deputy in it. Different roles that she does a good job of not being Katee Sackhoff. There are a lot of actors/actresses out there that can pull it off...some better than others.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Cillian Murphy is amazing in pretty much every role he's in.

[Cool Chris]

Captain Keith Mallory, doing a shit job because it needs to be done and he understands that he's the only guy that can do it.

Good assessment of him, and I am ashamed I had to look up that reference. It has been forever since I saw that great film. I had it on DVD but must have sold it at some point.

[KevShmev]

I think even the best actors sometimes comes off like they are playing themselves (or their usual role) yet again.  Hell, Tom Hanks, who by my watch is one of the best actors of the last 30 years, is sometimes accused of playing the usual Tom Hanks role, but you can't watch Forrest Gump, Philadelphia or Cast Away and tell me he is not tremendous. 

I think far too often, actors are underutilized in the sense that they never really their full potential in regards to their true range and their best, but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?"  Tarantino is great at that.  Or take Charlize Theron, who (leaving her staggering attractiveness out of it for a minute) has always struck me as a good, solid actress, but then you see her in Monster, which was a monster performance, pun intended, and it's like her true potential as an actor was realized in that single performance. 

[Cool Chris]

...but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?" 

Or they are someone like Ted Danson, an incredible actor who had the gig of a lifetime (the lead on a successful, popular, long-running TV show) and then can't get out from under that shadow.

[KevShmev]

...but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?" 

Or they are someone like Ted Danson, an incredible actor who had the gig of a lifetime (the lead on a successful, popular, long-running TV show) and then can't get out from under that shadow.

That has to be both a blessing and a curse.  I am sure most actors, when growing up and dreaming of being one, would have no problem with one day having a role so iconic and memorable that when you people hear your name, they automatically think of that character, but on the flip side, it can make it difficult for some to see you as any other character except the one.  I remember hearing that it took Ed O'Neill years for many to see him and not always think of Al Bundy.  In the case of Danson, I always thought of him as Sam Malone for a long time, but while he has more notable roles than his supporting one in Curb Your Enthusiasm, every time I see him in Curb, I see him as Ted Danson.

[Cool Chris]

Right, acting is the least stable of all gigs, and if you can get a job locked up for 10 years (or however long Cheers was on) you don't want to take that for granted.

[KevShmev]

For sure.

I think Jason Bateman is a good example of a guy just now realizing his full potential as a dramatic actor in Ozark. 

[El Barto]

...but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?" 

Or they are someone like Ted Danson, an incredible actor who had the gig of a lifetime (the lead on a successful, popular, long-running TV show) and then can't get out from under that shadow.

That has to be both a blessing and a curse.  I am sure most actors, when growing up and dreaming of being one, would have no problem with one day having a role so iconic and memorable that when you people hear your name, they automatically think of that character, but on the flip side, it can make it difficult for some to see you as any other character except the one.  I remember hearing that it took Ed O'Neill years for many to see him and not always think of Al Bundy.  In the case of Danson, I always thought of him as Sam Malone for a long time, but while he has more notable roles than his supporting one in Curb Your Enthusiasm, every time I see him in Curb, I see him as Ted Danson.

That happens to a lot of comedy actors. As they say, comedy is hard. Bryan Cranston is the obvious example. He was excellent as Hal. Dude's got a real flare for that sort of thing, and I suspect he'd tell you that being the man who knocks was easy compared to being funny as Hal. He got a good break to not be known as Malcolm's dad for the rest of his career, and also to demonstrate his acting chops. I've mentioned what a wonderful actor Richard Mulligan was plenty of times, and I'll say the same thing about Eddie Albert. I've seen them both bring the house down in dramatic roles, yet they're forever known as Burt Campbell and Oliver Wendel Douglas, where they were both fantastic.

[El Barto]

Captain Keith Mallory, doing a shit job because it needs to be done and he understands that he's the only guy that can do it.

Good assessment of him, and I am ashamed I had to look up that reference. It has been forever since I saw that great film. I had it on DVD but must have sold it at some point.

That's pretty much the assessment of most of Gregory Peck's roles. General Savage (12 O'Clock High) turning around a cursed squadron. Atticus Finch raising his kids alone, defending a black man both in court and against an angry mob, and shooting the rabid dog. Keeping Robert Mitchum's mitts off of his daughter because the law won't help. Pretty much every single thing Horatio Hornblower ever did. That's one of the reasons I've always liked him so much, and from what I gather it's very much a part of Peck's nature, as well.

[Cool Chris]

I only think of Bryan Cranston as Dr. Tim Whatley, dentist to the stars (and one who only works with adult patients), noted regifter, and converted Jew.

I wonder what the over/under is on how long it takes a thread in this subfoum that El Barto and I post in to get to Soap. In this one it is 21.

[MirrorMask]

...but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?" 

Or they are someone like Ted Danson, an incredible actor who had the gig of a lifetime (the lead on a successful, popular, long-running TV show) and then can't get out from under that shadow.

Well, being too young to have witnessed Ted Danson in his prime, while I know a bit of his carrer for me he's "just" the grandfather policeman in Fargo and, more important, the magnificent Michael in The Good Place, which I'd define the best and most clever comedy of recent years. I know he was the most famous bartender of the '80s or something, but for me Ted Danson = TGP's Michael.

[Stadler]

...but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?" 

Or they are someone like Ted Danson, an incredible actor who had the gig of a lifetime (the lead on a successful, popular, long-running TV show) and then can't get out from under that shadow.

But watch him on Curb Your Enthusiasm, where he is literally playing himself, and yet brings to that some of his finest acting, because he's feathering in nuances that can't really be fairly attributed to him personally.   (Sidebar, I sat three seats from him and his wife Mary at Bruce Springsteen's Broadway show.)

[Stadler]

...but occasionally they end up in a film or TV show where the writers and/or directors get every ounce of greatness out of them and you think, "how does he/she not have more great roles like that?" 

Or they are someone like Ted Danson, an incredible actor who had the gig of a lifetime (the lead on a successful, popular, long-running TV show) and then can't get out from under that shadow.

That has to be both a blessing and a curse.  I am sure most actors, when growing up and dreaming of being one, would have no problem with one day having a role so iconic and memorable that when you people hear your name, they automatically think of that character, but on the flip side, it can make it difficult for some to see you as any other character except the one.  I remember hearing that it took Ed O'Neill years for many to see him and not always think of Al Bundy.  In the case of Danson, I always thought of him as Sam Malone for a long time, but while he has more notable roles than his supporting one in Curb Your Enthusiasm, every time I see him in Curb, I see him as Ted Danson.

See above; he's PLAYING Ted Danson.   As I wrote above, I think it's actually some of his best acting, since it's really an odd "version" of Ted Danson (who, in the show, is separated from his wife Mary and dating Larry's ex-wife Cheryl without asking Larry first.)

[KevShmev]

Well sure, he is playing a fictionalized version of himself on Curb, as they all do, but my point was that I no longer see Ted Danson and automatically think of Sam Malone. 

[El Barto]

Well sure, he is playing a fictionalized version of himself on Curb, as they all do, but my point was that I no longer see Ted Danson and automatically think of Sam Malone.

Me neither. It's when he speaks that he's obviously Sam Malone.

[Zook]

I watched Aliens for the thousandth time the other day, but kinda payed more attention to the performances, and everyone aside from the pilot was amazing. The way she spoke was kind of hokey. I believed all of them. Yeah, it's Bill Paxton, but I believed he was Private Hudson.

Then there's all the Marvel movies. The main Avengers. All incredible acting performances. Seeing interviews with Chris Evans is jarring because he's so goofy in real life.

Then you watch a syfy movie and cringe to death.

[KevShmev]

Well sure, he is playing a fictionalized version of himself on Curb, as they all do, but my point was that I no longer see Ted Danson and automatically think of Sam Malone.

Me neither. It's when he speaks that he's obviously Sam Malone.

 

I don't know, man. I never heard Sam Malone call anyone a selfish mofo.

[gmillerdrake]

I watched Aliens for the thousandth time

Right there with ya. No exaggeration....I have probably seen that movie over 500 times. In fact....I took part in a trivia show years ago where I was repeatedly quizzed over the movie by random people....asked small details....for 20 minutes or so and never was stumped.

[Stadler]

Speaking of 'acting' in a sci-fi movie, I finally watched The Matrix for the first time.    There is a joke there: "you know it's bad when the best acting is Keanu Reeves", but actually, he was pretty good in that.  There is a LOT of dodgy acting, but it isn't from him. 

[KevShmev]

Speaking of 'acting' in a sci-fi movie, I finally watched The Matrix for the first time.    There is a joke there: "you know it's bad when the best acting is Keanu Reeves", but actually, he was pretty good in that.  There is a LOT of dodgy acting, but it isn't from him.

That is normally not my kind of movie, but it's awesome.  And it has aged very well. 

No one will ever confuse Keanu Reeves with Al Pacino or Bryan Cranston, but he seems like a good guy who doesn't take himself too seriously (unlike many other Hollywood stars), so I tend to cut him a lot of slack.  He sticks to what he does well.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Whenever i'm thinking about good actors Daniel Day Lewis always pops up in my head. Not saying he's the greatest but there's something about his presence in a movie that just sucks me in. I remember when I saw the church scene in There will be blood and how emotional I got during that scene, he felt so genuine and real. I rarely cry in movies but that was a close call.