ariich’s inclusive roulette (v6) – EPic final results!

[Lethean]

production isn't something I pay attention to.

So very shitty production can't ruin music for you? Even subconsciously, maybe?

I don't really think so.  I guess if it was subconsciously, I wouldn't really know.  But supposedly DT's production has been shitty for at least decade if not more, and I don't have any issues with it and love those albums.  I've read complaints about Arcturus before but I love their albums too.  And countless other bands.  It's not like that nearly so much here, but over at the MP forum it seemed as though people cared about that more than anything else, including like, the songs. 

Rush's Vapor Trails is pretty much the only album I can remember having conscious issues with, and it absolutely didn't ruin it for me.  I guess it's possible that I've been disinterested in something I've checked out because of the production... but I kinda doubt it.  Arcturus was a band I had no real interest in when I first checked them out and as I mentioned I've since read that lots of people don't like the production.  So that would have been a good time for me to have been turned off.  It wasn't like Vapor Trails where I already loved the band. 

[The Walrus]

Lethean, what do you listen to music with? Do you have a quality set of speakers or headphones or are you just using earbuds? I feel like that plays a huge part in how much one notices production quality.

As a fellow Arcturus fan I gotta agree the production kinda does suck

[Lethean]

I just kinda think - if it objectively sucked that bad, wouldn't they not put it out that way?  I mean Vapor Trails - the band said there was a problem, so that's different.  But people complained a *lot* about Clockwork Angels too.  If it was so bad, wouldn't they have done something else, especially considering how much they disliked Vapor Trails?  Wouldn't JP do things differently if the production sucked to his ears?

I have a good set of headphones - at least I think they're good.  Bose, not cheap.  I listen through those at home a lot.
But I don't have a very expensive speaker set up.  I have an older Bose sound bar that was expensive to me, but nothing compared to what some people have.  And I notice that music sounds better on both of those than the earbuds I use or my computer speakers.  But I've never liked something on my earbuds and disliked it on the good headphones.

[The Walrus]

Well, complaining about a mix doesn't necessarily mean it sucks or is objectively bad; there are a lot of cans of worms being opened with those questions, with tons of varying factors. For example, I'd argue that JP, talented as he is, has damaged his hearing from decades of playing extremely loud music night after night and hasn't produced a record as sonically pleasing as, say, Images & Words because he seems to lean heavily towards a sludgy, heavy guitar sound that overpowers the high end of DT's music. And most of the arguments I hear in favor of ADTOE's production don't really stack up against the criticisms I see. But, everyone's different. Not everybody focuses on the production, not everybody cares. I just know that even me, someone who is certainly not an audiophile, is baffled by a lot of the production on a lot of metal records specifically. Other genres I listen to more often than not have great production, but metal artists are always the ones that stick out like a sore thumb for one reason or another, the quality seesaws from artist to artist and even record to record

Also let's recall the story about Six Degrees' production where I believe they stayed up all night fidgeting with the production only for JP to go back on all of it the next day.  There's something to be said for working on something and being involved with all the little details, your ear sort of trains itself and what sounds good in the moment may not sound great the next day, or vice versa, or six months down the road... Audio is super tricky.

[Lethean]

Yeah I dunno about that - the hearing damage thing.  Certainly possible, probably even likely that he has some.  But if that was all it was, I'd think he'd have other ears giving him some feedback.  I feel like I might actually prefer the way most of their albums sound over Images and Words though.
Anyway, I didn't mean to imply that you were saying there was objectively bad production... I just get that impression that some do feel that way.

[The Walrus]

Well, I do think 3 of the last 4 DT records have atrocious production. Another problem is a lot of records are being mixed and mastered for listening on earbuds and phones, which is objectively inferior to higher quality equipment one could listen to music on. (But that's not exclusive to metal, that's industry wide)

Rich, gimme dem sultz

[ariich]

I dunno about objectively bad for the most part, production can be good in different ways and suit different styles, and much of it is artistic choice. There absolutely is an objective element of course from a technical standpoint.

[Buddyhunter1]

I dunno about objectively bad for the most part, production can be good in different ways and suit different styles, and much of it is artistic choice. There absolutely is an objective element of course from a technical standpoint.

Even that last sentence is debatable - you've got bands like Baroness intentionally clipping their albums to shit for "artistic purposes" or whatever. Now, in my opinion, I think that's a fucking terrible idea and Baroness's most recent album sounds like fucking dogshit but hey, it wasn't an accident?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Indiscipline]

Well, I do think 3 of the last 4 DT records have atrocious production. Another problem is a lot of records are being mixed and mastered for listening on earbuds and phones, which is objectively inferior to higher quality equipment one could listen to music on. (But that's not exclusive to metal, that's industry wide)

Rich, gimme dem sultz

That's a terrific point. I try to limit earbuds/phones use to an absolute minimum - not a stone cold audiophile, but I need to preserve my ears - and I must say there's a lot of music not up to snuff when in open air. I'm very displeased with the age of compression. Heck, a Muddy Waters vinyl through a high end system sounds better than half the stuff my step-daughter listens to.

[The Walrus]

Well, I do think 3 of the last 4 DT records have atrocious production. Another problem is a lot of records are being mixed and mastered for listening on earbuds and phones, which is objectively inferior to higher quality equipment one could listen to music on. (But that's not exclusive to metal, that's industry wide)

Rich, gimme dem sultz

That's a terrific point. I try to limit earbuds/phones use to an absolute minimum - not a stone cold audiophile, but I need to preserve my ears - and I must say there's a lot of music not up to snuff when in open air. I'm very displeased with the age of compression. Heck, a Muddy Waters vinyl through a high end system sounds better than half the stuff my step-daughter listens to.

Yeah man. I got my first turntable over the holidays so I've been picking up original pressings of some of my all-time favorite music from the 70s and 80s and listening to them on my monitors and I have been floored every single time at how amazing they sound compared to listening to them on my phone or even the CD re-issues and "digital remasters."

[King Postwhore]

I'm anti ear buds but I'm ok with Full sized headphones. 

[Lethean]

I use earbuds for walking/hiking or situations like a waiting room.  They're much more convenient to carry.  The over the ear ones are for home mostly.  Or planes.

[The Walrus]

I've seen dudes wear the big headphones at the gym and it always makes me laugh. Like, even my home headphones have some of that black material rub off over time, I can't imagine what all the sweat does to those things. Earbuds always, outside of the home 

[King Postwhore]

You should see me on my lawnmower with my full sized headphones singing like there's no tomorrow.

[The Walrus]

You should see me on my lawnmower with my full sized headphones singing like there's no tomorrow.

I bet it's not better than Tim mowing his lawn:

[King Postwhore]

Tim's so old fashioned he has a push lawnmower with no engine.

[ariich]

I dunno about objectively bad for the most part, production can be good in different ways and suit different styles, and much of it is artistic choice. There absolutely is an objective element of course from a technical standpoint.

Even that last sentence is debatable - you've got bands like Baroness intentionally clipping their albums to shit for "artistic purposes" or whatever. Now, in my opinion, I think that's a fucking terrible idea and Baroness's most recent album sounds like fucking dogshit but hey, it wasn't an accident?  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes absolutely, I meant more when something is intended to sound good.

I do like Baroness but yeah I'm not a fan of their recent production style.

On another note, I think I should hopefully be on track to post comparisons this evening and therefore results tomorrow.

[Stadler]

I'll take that impression.

As will I.

[Stadler]

production isn't something I pay attention to.

So very shitty production can't ruin music for you? Even subconsciously, maybe?

I'm sort of with Lethean; I mean, it CAN "ruin" music, since there's production I like and don't like.  But "Hotter Than Hell" by Kiss is muddier than a pig in shit, but it's one of my favorite albums, because the instruments have space.  I've really fallen in love with Jimmy Page's production style in recent years.   Zeppelin was always considered a "loud", or even "metal" band, but no matter how bombastic, you can hear EVERYTHING.   I'm sort of done with the sludge method of production; I don't get why a "dense wall of guitars" is better.  If that's "production" then sure. 

Not to open a can of worms here, but that's the difference to me between Alter Bridge and Slash.  They're both Myles Kennedy kicking ass, but one with 90's production values (AB) and one with 70's production values (Slash).  So, I guess, maybe, I'm talking myself into a "production matters" opinion.     

[Elite]

Oh, there's definitely taste involved. 'Shitty production' as I stated isn't really meant to be a judgement of value, though it definitely looks like it is. 'Bad' production (let's just say it's 'bad' when not every instrument can be heard clearly, or the sound is distorted) can for instance be an artistic choice for a band or artist instead who deliberately want their music to sound a certain way.

Yeah, there's definitely something wrong with the term 'shitty production' ...

[The Walrus]

Look, I'll just say sometimes we're such a fan of some music that hell or high water we enjoy the music even if the production ain't up to snuff. I can think of plenty of friends (and myself included for some bands, I'll be happy to admit who I have biases for) who have never acknowledged one negative thing about some bands and won't ever criticize them, and that's fine - but at some point you gotta acknowledge where improvements can be made in the sound, because there are reasons certain producers have 'legendary' status or are held in high regard for how good they can make an album sound. St. Anger, Vapor Trails, ADTOE, all well documented cases of albums having, er, "problems" to put it kindly Jens Bogren, amazing metal record producer, makes records sound incredible, heavy and loud but with lots of breathing room. Steven Wilson, an amazing producer, almost always makes the music sound wonderful. etc...

[ariich]

In terms of DT, ADTOE is hardly one I'd highlight - DT12 was the main culprit.

[The Walrus]

In terms of DT, ADTOE is hardly one I'd highlight - DT12 was the main culprit.

That one's right up there with ADTOE for me, so I agree.

[Indiscipline]

Oh, I can enjoy the music (and songwriting, and arrangement, and orchestration) plenty while acknowledging production isn't up to my ideal production standards.

DT, arguably my favourite band, hasn't made more than two albums I would define excellent production-wise.

[ariich]

By the way chaps, this is shaping up to be another high scoring round on average. Some real growers. I'm also realising that my approach for this roulette lends itself to slightly higher scores than whole albums, not in all cases of course but probably as an overall trend as people send me mini "best-of"s. .

[The Walrus]

I feel like I'm being greased up for a high score. Now you may disappoint me tremendously 

[Buddyhunter1]

Jens Bogren, amazing metal record producer, makes records sound incredible, heavy and loud but with lots of breathing room.

To further the "production is subjective" point, I really am not a fan of Jens Bogren's production style most of the time
His metal production sounds thick and clear, sure, but it has no edge. Most of his records sound like I'm being whumped over the head with a pillow instead of being smashed by a hammer.

[ariich]

Not sure what you're accusing me of Katt but I assure you I'm not greasing anyone.

[The Walrus]

Jens Bogren, amazing metal record producer, makes records sound incredible, heavy and loud but with lots of breathing room.

To further the "production is subjective" point, I really am not a fan of Jens Bogren's production style most of the time
His metal production sounds thick and clear, sure, but it has no edge. Most of his records sound like I'm being whumped over the head with a pillow instead of being smashed by a hammer.

Bike racks at 3, bucko

[Lethean]

For me, it's not that I don't want to criticize a band for their production, it's just that I don't really care.  And I don't mind that other people do care or that they discuss it. I just wish that in some cases they would spend the same amount of time talking about the actual songs. And again, I'm not referring anyone in this thread, just going off on a little tangent I suppose.

[The Walrus]

^^ Well, metal fans are nerds, moreso than other styles of music. Comes with the territory. Asking metalheads to spend less time talking about production is like asking me to make less Spongebob references. Can't do it. 

[ariich]

New rule: Every Spongebob reference knocks 0.5 points off your score.

[Buddyhunter1]

The songs are definitely more important, for sure. A great song with bad production can still be enjoyable but a shitty song with stellar production is pretty worthless.

In other words, the production is the appearance, while the music itself is the personality.

[Lethean]

I like that analogy Buddy.

[King Postwhore]

New rule: Every Spongebob reference knocks 0.5 points off your score.

Well I'm safe then.