Author Topic: The Politics Of The Coronavirus  (Read 24668 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1050 on: September 03, 2020, 11:10:19 AM »
Bill, I hear what you're saying. Maybe I'm too naÔve to assume that it's not an agenda being pushed, but I picture more of an open discussion of these two major events of the current year.

Do you just not have faith that the school's would be unable to create some sort of...curriculum is too strong, but some sort of seminar type period. Surely there can be some sort of fact based discussion on these subjects. I'm sure kids' heads are spinning.

I mean, why teach history at all.? And haven't most schools covered some sort of Current Events for many years now?

The devil is in the details, though.  I don't have faith in the schools; I've seen too much in the last five years here in CT that has destroyed that faith.  Of course, we COULD have a fact-based discussion, but you don't need to be a media junkie to know that the line of what is "fact" and what is "opinion" is horribly, irreparably impaired.   One need look only at the threads here on some of these issues.  And Superintendants of schools are now increasingly put in quasi-political positions of having to appease the community whims (read:  mob rule).
Personally, I think an open discussion of these sorts of things would be a wonderful idea in a functional system (meaning some other country). The reality is that for us it's simply another battleground in our civil cold war. When CT starts teaching about systemic racism, TX will start teaching bout happy minstrel slaves appreciative of their opportunity to migrate to America. People in both states will complain, and it'll be just another example of idiot liberals and racist republicans trying to destroy our country. So in other words, a great idea that we can't execute. Fuck yeah, America!

I'm with you.  I have no objection to the open discussion; I object to the discussion distorted by either side.   It's sad, too, because the only ones that lose are our kids.   The real benefit out of an open discussion on that isn't the subject matter of the unit, but the lesson that we can and should talk about this like adults, with no judgment, no acrimony and no hate.  Opportunity, wasted! 

Online TAC

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1051 on: September 03, 2020, 04:44:34 PM »
But isn't the opportunity wasted if you don't even try to take it?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Online El Barto

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1052 on: September 03, 2020, 06:11:30 PM »
But isn't the opportunity wasted if you don't even try to take it?
Isn't the opportunity similarly wasted if you jump on it at a time you know it's unlikely to succeed? Opportunities generally aren't finite. Some are better than others, but others will come. I like the idea a lot. If they try it I hope they succeed. My hunch, though, is that some irate dad is going to throw a fit over what the school is teaching his kid, there's always one of them, and the next thing you know the whole country is using it to point out how laughably stupid or racist the other side is. Now the opportunity you gambled on is tarnished. Right now people just aren't capable of or interested in having meaningful discussions.
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Online TAC

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1053 on: September 03, 2020, 06:41:16 PM »
I like the idea a lot. If they try it I hope they succeed.

Well, that's really my point. As far as timing, kids are going back to school now.


My hunch, though, is that some irate dad is going to throw a fit over what the school is teaching his kid, there's always one of them, and the next thing you know the whole country is using it to point out how laughably stupid or racist the other side is. Now the opportunity you gambled on is tarnished. Right now people just aren't capable of or interested in having meaningful discussions.

I totally understand that.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1054 on: September 04, 2020, 08:14:39 AM »
Right now people just aren't capable of or interested in having meaningful discussions.

I stay far away from words like "terrified" and what not, as I think the hyperbole overwhelms the conversation (I was watching a show last night - not important which one it was - and this one couple... everything was "insanely great" and "awesomely amazing" and this and that, and after a point I looked at my wife and said "these two clowns are trying WAY too hard.") but that statement above is as close as I come.   It's fascinating and not a little fear-inducing to realize how much of our current state of affairs is driven by that very simple premise. 

It is almost physically impossible to get anywhere if one side (or both, as it is here) simply flat out refuse to communicate. 

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1055 on: September 04, 2020, 09:35:26 AM »
Right now people just aren't capable of or interested in having meaningful discussions.

I stay far away from words like "terrified" and what not, as I think the hyperbole overwhelms the conversation (I was watching a show last night - not important which one it was - and this one couple... everything was "insanely great" and "awesomely amazing" and this and that, and after a point I looked at my wife and said "these two clowns are trying WAY too hard.") but that statement above is as close as I come.   It's fascinating and not a little fear-inducing to realize how much of our current state of affairs is driven by that very simple premise. 

It is almost physically impossible to get anywhere if one side (or both, as it is here) simply flat out refuse to communicate.

That's the truth.

It's, to me, down to who are the ones that are more capable of at least trying to sit down and have a discussion. It's who I am actually watching on YouTube, more than Mainstream Media, as these people are those I feel are capable of at least trying.

It's amazing being in the middle of either side. I'm not a Democrat or a Republican, but I lean a bit to the liberal side on some issues and conservative in some. The problem now is I can't be in the middle. I have to be either one and life just doesn't work like that.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1056 on: September 04, 2020, 10:36:10 AM »
No one cares other than me, but it's an odd thing, because I'm not "in the middle".   I can be rather firmly conservative on some things - mostly economic - and I'm rather firmly liberal on others (I'm for single payer, for example).  I'm not a moderate except on a very few specific topics.   My biggest beef with both sides are really more rooted in the tactics than the ideology.

Offline emtee

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1057 on: September 16, 2020, 06:24:51 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

Online Chino

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1058 on: September 16, 2020, 06:59:12 AM »
I'll believe it when she releases her evidence and they back up her claim.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1059 on: September 16, 2020, 08:10:32 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

I think it's fair to note that they may not have the exact same valuation for the individual life as some of us here might.   Or, even if they do, that the quantum risk/benefit is the same. 

What's the equation for "individual lives lost" versus hundreds of billions of economic damage, society unrest and upheaval, loss of confidence in leadership, increased divisiveness that leads to an election between Joe Biden and Donald Trump (even if one is better than the other, are those the TWO BEST of what we have?), lack of focus on other world events (Hong Kong, maybe), and a loss of stature for the U.S. on the world stage?   

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1060 on: September 16, 2020, 09:54:06 AM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

I think it's fair to note that they may not have the exact same valuation for the individual life as some of us here might.   Or, even if they do, that the quantum risk/benefit is the same. 

What's the equation for "individual lives lost" versus hundreds of billions of economic damage, society unrest and upheaval, loss of confidence in leadership, increased divisiveness that leads to an election between Joe Biden and Donald Trump (even if one is better than the other, are those the TWO BEST of what we have?), lack of focus on other world events (Hong Kong, maybe), and a loss of stature for the U.S. on the world stage?

Um ....

Looking at my most recent posts, it almost seems like I'm trying to become the Common Sense of DTF :lol
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1061 on: September 16, 2020, 12:31:20 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

I think it's fair to note that they may not have the exact same valuation for the individual life as some of us here might.   Or, even if they do, that the quantum risk/benefit is the same. 

What's the equation for "individual lives lost" versus hundreds of billions of economic damage, society unrest and upheaval, loss of confidence in leadership, increased divisiveness that leads to an election between Joe Biden and Donald Trump (even if one is better than the other, are those the TWO BEST of what we have?), lack of focus on other world events (Hong Kong, maybe), and a loss of stature for the U.S. on the world stage?

Um ....



You lost me....

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1062 on: September 16, 2020, 12:50:25 PM »
"You" = United States.  The US didn't need China to create and unleash a virus (which I doubt they did anyway), for the items I bolded to occur.  You (the country) were doing a good job all on your own on those matters.
Looking at my most recent posts, it almost seems like I'm trying to become the Common Sense of DTF :lol
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1063 on: September 16, 2020, 01:20:35 PM »
"You" = United States.  The US didn't need China to create and unleash a virus (which I doubt they did anyway), for the items I bolded to occur.  You (the country) were doing a good job all on your own on those matters.

Covid-19 was the spark to ignite that flame.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1064 on: September 16, 2020, 01:22:00 PM »
"You" = United States.  The US didn't need China to create and unleash a virus (which I doubt they did anyway), for the items I bolded to occur.  You (the country) were doing a good job all on your own on those matters.

No doubt, but it's been a stated mission of both the Russian and Chinese governments to foment unrest and divisiveness here.  Whether it would exist or not is immaterial; they are certainly not helping.

EDIT:  To Ben's point, it's also different; COVID is apolitical in that way.  We can quibble about the "leadership" of going to war in Iraq, or ramrodding the ACA, or any of a 100 other issues, all of which are to some degree partisan, and some degree dependent on your attention span.  But COVID is far more bipartisan than that, and also more fundamental. 

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1065 on: September 16, 2020, 01:44:02 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/16/twitter-suspends-virologist-who-claims-covid-19-was-made-in-lab/

So the woman got banned from Twitter. I'd like to know why, but I still doubt that she has anything of substance. On his show, Carlson said  ďIím giving you the benefit of the doubt so Iím going to assume youíre not an anti-Chinese racist so itís not clear why Twitter would shut you down or why youíre being ignored by the rest of US media". I know reporters like Maddow get a bad rap around her, but does anyone think that she or the New York Times wouldn't have pounced all over this if there was a shred of credibility? China disappears and kills people for actions far lesser than what this woman is doing/alleging, and she's piecemealing the release of the evidence that would be the biggest bombshell of 2020? And Fox News is the only outlet in all of media that's willing to run the story? It makes no sense, imo. This woman should be dumping that evidence and those findings everywhere she can.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd kind of like to be. But this just doesn't seem to add up.


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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1066 on: September 16, 2020, 01:58:01 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/16/twitter-suspends-virologist-who-claims-covid-19-was-made-in-lab/

So the woman got banned from Twitter. I'd like to know why, but I still doubt that she has anything of substance. On his show, Carlson said  ďIím giving you the benefit of the doubt so Iím going to assume youíre not an anti-Chinese racist so itís not clear why Twitter would shut you down or why youíre being ignored by the rest of US media". I know reporters like Maddow get a bad rap around her, but does anyone think that she or the New York Times wouldn't have pounced all over this if there was a shred of credibility? China disappears and kills people for actions far lesser than what this woman is doing/alleging, and she's piecemealing the release of the evidence that would be the biggest bombshell of 2020? And Fox News is the only outlet in all of media that's willing to run the story? It makes no sense, imo. This woman should be dumping that evidence and those findings everywhere she can.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd kind of like to be. But this just doesn't seem to add up.

Yea, I'm not currently putting too much stock in this lady.  I need more sources and evidence than to believe one person.  I guess two, since Trump has been saying this all along too.  However, I am also not ready to just dismiss this because while so far the evidence suggests it is not man made, I just wouldn't put it behind China to actually do this.  They certainly have a motive to disrupt the world but the US specifically in an election year.  And we already know China doesn't care about their own civilian deaths.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1067 on: September 16, 2020, 02:08:20 PM »
"You" = United States.  The US didn't need China to create and unleash a virus (which I doubt they did anyway), for the items I bolded to occur.  You (the country) were doing a good job all on your own on those matters.

No doubt, but it's been a stated mission of both the Russian and Chinese governments to foment unrest and divisiveness here.  Whether it would exist or not is immaterial; they are certainly not helping.

EDIT:  To Ben's point, it's also different; COVID is apolitical in that way.  We can quibble about the "leadership" of going to war in Iraq, or ramrodding the ACA, or any of a 100 other issues, all of which are to some degree partisan, and some degree dependent on your attention span.  But COVID is far more bipartisan than that, and also more fundamental.

Doesn't mean it can't be used to ignite the flames. And that's just what happened.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1068 on: September 16, 2020, 02:32:12 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus

Not sure if this allegation can ever be proved or disproved, but the Dr. that fled China claims they intentionally created the virus in the lab and let it out. I'm not sure how that benefits China since their people also die. Seems unlikely to me but who knows.

https://nypost.com/2020/09/16/twitter-suspends-virologist-who-claims-covid-19-was-made-in-lab/

So the woman got banned from Twitter. I'd like to know why, but I still doubt that she has anything of substance. On his show, Carlson said  ďIím giving you the benefit of the doubt so Iím going to assume youíre not an anti-Chinese racist so itís not clear why Twitter would shut you down or why youíre being ignored by the rest of US media". I know reporters like Maddow get a bad rap around her, but does anyone think that she or the New York Times wouldn't have pounced all over this if there was a shred of credibility? China disappears and kills people for actions far lesser than what this woman is doing/alleging, and she's piecemealing the release of the evidence that would be the biggest bombshell of 2020? And Fox News is the only outlet in all of media that's willing to run the story? It makes no sense, imo. This woman should be dumping that evidence and those findings everywhere she can.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'd kind of like to be. But this just doesn't seem to add up.

I'm going to get flamed here, but while I GENERALLY agree with you, I also wrote in the other COVID thread about my feelings on human nature.    I sort of stopped making those kind of blanket assumptions about motivations a while ago.   Sure, as a professional journalist, the one breaking that story is going to be an icon.    But after watching Adam Schiff have the opportunity of a LIFETIME to try the case of the century, and then opt for as much lying and subterfuge as there as hard work and ethics, my faith is deeply diminished.  It may not be Maddow, or the Times, but I feel strongly that somewhere there is a reporter doing the math about "researching this truth" and "how does that help Trump to a second term".   In keeping with the notion of "the intolerance of intolerance" (which is essentially the same thing) I have no doubt that it's at least a factor to be considered that "by any means necessary" is in play here.

Again, I'm NOT arguing this is happening - my personal belief tends toward what you wrote - but you asked "why" and I'm giving you a non-zero probability option as to why.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #1069 on: September 19, 2020, 11:07:20 AM »
I'm replying to these here...


While the virus is not in the air, it might seem that it's easier to catch it if you live in a polluted area, with bad air quality. It all ties back anyway to the way we're treating our planet, "too much of everything" puts a strain on the equlibrium we have with our only home, we pollute too much and we become more vulnerable to diseases, we pour cement upon every tree we can find and eventually we disturb viruses that were better left the hell alone, which spread and affects us more because we were pollutin the air to begin with...

It all falls back under the global and waaaaay generic and absolutely broad concept of "Don't screw up the planet" basically, of course there are endless discussions to be held not on a forum but in the offices of power about what do locally and nation for nation, but speaking as I said way generally, it all comes back to one thing: we shouldn't screw up our one and only home so much.

I don't see it more as a striking back, even though of course that term is not meant that literally, but more as our failure to remember that not every single portion of the planet belongs to us.

Nature doesn't conjure up by magic bears to protect itself from humans - but if humans insist to roam freely around areas where there are bears, sooner or later someone's gonna injure or kill a human. We should leave bears alone and it's not mandatory to continue to walk, hike or build in areas where there are bears.

At the same time nature doesn't conjure up a virus because humans are overpopulating and overbuilding an area, but eventually going too deep in the jungle and eating everything that once was alive that can be found in it resulted first in the SARS, and then in this.

It's not that nature creates a volcano - it's mankind that is too often too stupid and gets too close to the lava, to make another metaphor.

This is something, I feel, White Culture needs to reflect upon itself (To be clear when I mention White, it's only meant as a descriptor of the peoples whom came from the Europeans at the time of the "Discovery" of the Americas). Because When you use We, Us Natives know darn well that doesn't include us, but only you...because that's all White Mindset and Culture.

There is a reason why I said Native Roots: How The Indians Enriched America by Jack Weatherford needs to be required reading in schools, and to the rest of anyone living in America. It talks about how the Lust for greed and material ways have drove the White Culture to gradually destroy the very land we live on called America. How it once was a prosperous utopia, with our own ways of living, our Native Culture. We have thrived here many years before it was "discovered" and without us, the white population wouldn't have survived.

With this "Discovery" came diseases that wiped out entire nations, that once were great and marvelous civilizations. So when, they returned to "Claim" this "Discovery" most of the people were already gone, and all that were left were relics of what once was.

If maybe, a reflection of White Culture and Society were to occur, you would see how in tune with Nature we should be living. And then maybe, White Culture will listen to what us Natives have to say about the Earth.
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