Author Topic: The Politics Of The Coronavirus  (Read 47076 times)

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Offline TAC

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would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #176 on: March 24, 2020, 12:11:41 PM »
I've been wondering where Biden is as well.  Even if he doesn't have power to do anything politically, you'd think he'd at least be making public statements to get people behind him against Trump.  Maybe he is quarantining himself though, would make sense.  Honestly, surprised Trump isn't sick himself and quarantined.  But I guess if he legit isn't sick, he can put that towards his germaphobia which may actually be his saving grace here.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #177 on: March 24, 2020, 12:29:02 PM »
Two thoughts, looking for opinion: 

- Do we really want a President that has to disappear when times like these get tough?  George Washington led troops into battle, and while we don't want that, is it too much to ask, in this age when 16-year-olds can film entire movies on an iPhone, that Biden not look like Hitler in his bunker circa March of '45?  That back, black wall in Monday's clip makes it look like a hostage video.  (Yes, I know there are clips from Tuesday that look better, but I didn't watch them through, and it still is a rookie mistake for a guy with 50 years in national politics). 

- In an age where John Kerry risked violating the Logan Act with regards to the Iran Nuclear Deal, and Biden himself was courageous enough to meddle in the Ukraine's legal afffairs, he can't act as a steward for the governors?  Put in some face-time brokering cooperation between businesses and government?  Even out of office, he's arguably one of the ten most powerful people in the country, and he's helpless to even provide the ILLUSION of comfort?   Trump's not doing a great job by any standard, but he's not doing as bad as NOTHING, which is where Biden is right now.  I think it's questionable logic to assume "Trump blows when compared to Cuomo, who is doing fantastic, therefore people will vote for me!"

INB4 the criticism: yes, I'm being very unfair to Biden, and unapologetically so.  I think it's ridiculous that we might be voting on one issue  - how this crisis was handled - and I've said that before, but the fact is, many WILL vote on that one issue.  So given that, as Adami said, we already know how bad Trump is, and a guy hiding in his dimly lit living room is the best we have on offer?

Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #178 on: March 24, 2020, 12:42:33 PM »
he can't act as a steward for the governors?  Put in some face-time brokering cooperation between businesses and government?  Even out of office, he's arguably one of the ten most powerful people in the country, and he's helpless to even provide the ILLUSION of comfort?

With the typical disclaimer - Biden is NOT my favorite or first choice  - but how do you know that Biden is doing none of those things or other things to help?  Whether that be in his local community or on a national scale.  What concrete evidence?  I'm seeing the Bernie bros complaining about "Where's Joe?"  But that is to be expected.  I don't follow him on social media.  So maybe I'm missing something.

There is also the notion that you give someone enough rope.  Could be he's laying low (media profile wise) to allow that rope to lengthen.

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Offline TAC

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #179 on: March 24, 2020, 12:43:49 PM »
a guy hiding in his dimly lit living room is the best we have on offer?

Apparently.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #180 on: March 24, 2020, 12:53:01 PM »
I'm thinking about starting a poll.  For the folks here who are over 50 and/or have underlying health problems.  Are you willing to die so that your grandkids can continue eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite?  Cause I've asked a few older people I know personally and they're telling me that they'd prefer to live. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #181 on: March 24, 2020, 01:16:24 PM »
I'm thinking about starting a poll.  For the folks here who are over 50 and/or have underlying health problems.  Are you willing to die so that your grandkids can continue eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite?  Cause I've asked a few older people I know personally and they're telling me that they'd prefer to live.

You're not reading the news correctly. -sigh-

You're only supposed to pay attention to the words and literal meaning of liberals/democrats. If republicans or conservatives say something, you're supposed to ignore the wording, ignore the insane implications, and just boil it down to the most basic neutral message you can imagine, and then agree or disagree with that.

So don't read "older folks are willing to die so their grand kids can have a good economy" and instead read "grandparents want the best for their grand kids, and the economy is important for their future."

And yes, I know I'm being hyperbolic and such.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 01:37:46 PM by Adami »
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #182 on: March 24, 2020, 01:48:20 PM »
I'm thinking about starting a poll.  For the folks here who are over 50 and/or have underlying health problems.  Are you willing to die so that your grandkids can continue eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite?  Cause I've asked a few older people I know personally and they're telling me that they'd prefer to live.

You're not reading the news correctly. -sigh-

So they keep trying to tell me.  Me and my fancy book-learning and better than average reading comprehension skills.  What am I thinking?   ::)  :P

In other news, earlier today on Fox Dr. Oz pushed back on Trump's Easter deadline. Trump is telling Oz it's gotta happen. Trump yelling that doctors would telling him to "keep it closed for two years" which no one is saying.

Fucking Dr. Oz can't even reason with this idiot.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #183 on: March 24, 2020, 02:23:25 PM »
Governor Pritzker (IL) posted this to Twitter

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Offline Shadow Ninja 2.0

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #184 on: March 24, 2020, 02:46:35 PM »
I'm thinking about starting a poll.  For the folks here who are over 50 and/or have underlying health problems.  Are you willing to die so that your grandkids can continue eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite?  Cause I've asked a few older people I know personally and they're telling me that they'd prefer to live.

The spring breakers and such are fucking stupid, but anecdotally, I will say that a lot of the people I see being resistant to the whole thing, still going out to eat, etc., are older people. Then again, that may be because I'm in the South and older people here think that coronavirus is a hoax to make Trump look bad (not a joke, a genuine opinion some of these people have expressed).
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #185 on: March 24, 2020, 02:52:04 PM »
I'm thinking about starting a poll.  For the folks here who are over 50 and/or have underlying health problems.  Are you willing to die so that your grandkids can continue eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite?  Cause I've asked a few older people I know personally and they're telling me that they'd prefer to live.

Not when you phrase it that way.

But "would I risk my health to go back to work, and so others can go back to work and not have to worry about whether they are going to lose everything, knowing I still have to be smart and diligent, and oh-by-the-way, the dipshits that are eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite get fined for violating the ordinances that have been established for all of our well-being", maybe.  Not saying I would, but it's a different question. 

Because, honestly, right now, I feel like the one we're taking in the shorts is a lot bigger than it needs to be in part just BECAUSE there are people like those dipshits that are eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite and aren't really practicing safe living.  Why not push some of the burden back on them instead of having the half the US population held hostage for their buffoonery (more or less)? 

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #186 on: March 24, 2020, 03:09:28 PM »
@ Stads, I appreciate your first paragraph. I was basing my assumption on the FOX headline that said people are willing to die to let their grandkids enjoy a good economy. Your post inspired me to see what was actually said, and I am honestly shocked FOX of all places misrepresented such a stance, which was.....while still largely disagreeable to me, not nearly as insane or crazy as the headline made it out to be. Much appreciated.

For your second paragraph, how do we push some of the burden back on them? I'm honestly asking. I figure all of us share a pretty similar burden. If you mean rounding up all the young idiot spring breakers and dropping them into a volcano........well we might be on the same page there.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #187 on: March 24, 2020, 03:17:34 PM »
@ Stads, I appreciate your first paragraph. I was basing my assumption on the FOX headline that said people are willing to die to let their grandkids enjoy a good economy. Your post inspired me to see what was actually said, and I am honestly shocked FOX of all places misrepresented such a stance, which was.....while still largely disagreeable to me, not nearly as insane or crazy as the headline made it out to be. Much appreciated.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.  I don't know about Fox News, I don't watch it, but there are people - the Lt. Gov. of Texas for one - that have put it that way.  I do know that a lot of what gets attributed to Fox News isn't accurate, but that's a conversation/fight for another day. 

Quote
For your second paragraph, how do we push some of the burden back on them? I'm honestly asking. I figure all of us share a pretty similar burden. If you mean rounding up all the young idiot spring breakers and dropping them into a volcano........well we might be on the same page there.

I was thinking of that Snickers commercial with the big hole in the ground. :)

But seriously; we have to have ways of enforcing certain emergency ordinances during a crisis, whether it's a mass killing, a natural disaster, or whatnot.   I'd wager if you slapped a $10,000 fine and a 60-day jail term, to be served at a date to be named later, that might make the beer a little more flat and the wings a little more soggy (at Hooter's, that is).  But that's just one option. 


Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #188 on: March 24, 2020, 03:21:09 PM »
I was very serious at first. I might be wrong about FOX and it might've been falsely attributed to them, but that's what I thought I saw. Could be wrong. Not terribly important. I'm not in the super anti-fox group, just the normal anti-fox group.  :biggrin:

And I feel you on the fines. I dunno how it is in most states, but here in New York, you can't go to Hooters and hang out. It's just not happening to my knowledge. Maybe upstate? I dunno. But plenty of people doing stuff outside and in large groups in close proximity.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #189 on: March 24, 2020, 04:47:18 PM »
I saw Lt. Dan (Forest Gump!) interviewed on Fox.  I did not suggest Fox was suggesting this.  But Lt. Dan is "all in."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g78VheRUHpY

But "would I risk my health to go back to work, and so others can go back to work and not have to worry about whether they are going to lose everything, knowing I still have to be smart and diligent, and oh-by-the-way, the dipshits that are eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite get fined for violating the ordinances that have been established for all of our well-being", maybe.  Not saying I would, but it's a different question.

But this is the rub, isn't it.  People don't know enough to be "smart and diligent" do they?  Without looking it up, do you know how long the virus lives on various surfaces?  Do you know how to protect yourself at the grocery store?  Do you know the incubation period?  Do you know how many days you could be shedding the virus before showing symptoms?  I could go on with about a dozen other questions that you may or may not know the answer to.  You're a smart guy.  Do you assume others are that "smart and diligent" because if you don't, then what you are suggesting is putting us all at risk for waves of more sheltering in place.  If you or someone else in your office make the wrong choice about one small thing and then head to your office to get this economy "back on track" then you are at risk once again.  You willing to bet your family's life on those odds?



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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #190 on: March 24, 2020, 04:50:41 PM »
I saw Lt. Dan (Forest Gump!) interviewed on Fox.  I did not suggest Fox was suggesting this.  But Lt. Dan is "all in."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g78VheRUHpY

But "would I risk my health to go back to work, and so others can go back to work and not have to worry about whether they are going to lose everything, knowing I still have to be smart and diligent, and oh-by-the-way, the dipshits that are eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite get fined for violating the ordinances that have been established for all of our well-being", maybe.  Not saying I would, but it's a different question.

But this is the rub, isn't it.  People don't know enough to be "smart and diligent" do they?  Without looking it up, do you know how long the virus lives on various surfaces?  Do you know how to protect yourself at the grocery store?  Do you know the incubation period?  Do you know how many days you could be shedding the virus before showing symptoms?  I could go on with about a dozen other questions that you may or may not know the answer to.  You're a smart guy.  Do you assume others are that "smart and diligent" because if you don't, then what you are suggesting is putting us all at risk for waves of more sheltering in place.  If you or someone else in your office make the wrong choice about one small thing and then head to your office to get this economy "back on track" then you are at risk once again.  You willing to bet your family's life on those odds?

I'm honestly surprised when I talk to some people about how uninformed they are about the virus.  I know lots of these things are still unknown in general, but there are some knowns out there.  I feel because I've been following along with many sources, reddit, twitter, CNN, fox news, here... and I find myself way more knowledgeable about what's happening than almost all my friends inclduing some doctors who until just recently stopped using the flu comparison.  You'd think some people would want to be more informed about this stuff but that's not the reality.

Offline Elite

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #191 on: March 25, 2020, 05:30:29 AM »
You'd think some people would want to be more informed about this stuff but that's not the reality.

Ignorance is bliss though, is it not?

Of course Trump has done everything he could possibly do and knew this was going out of hand months before (even though he stated the complete opposite one month earlier). Oh, the joys of having everything (including false information) readily available to everybody. I can simply choose what to believe and what to ignore :|)
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #192 on: March 25, 2020, 08:17:35 AM »
This notion of getting things 'back on track' by Easter is incredibly dangerous.  As Bill Gates put it yesterday

“The economic effect of this is really dramatic. Nothing like this has ever happened to the economy in our lifetimes,” Gates said. “But bringing the economy back ... that’s more of a reversible thing than bringing people back to life. So we’re going to take the pain in the economic dimension — huge pain — in order to minimize the pain in the diseases-and-death dimension.”

When you've got an administration that is (seemingly) singularly focused on economic indicators (GDP and the Stock Market), that leads to very bad decision making.  Seems POTUS wants to put the economic health of the nation ahead of the actual health of his citizens.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #193 on: March 25, 2020, 08:27:05 AM »
I saw Lt. Dan (Forest Gump!) interviewed on Fox.  I did not suggest Fox was suggesting this.  But Lt. Dan is "all in."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g78VheRUHpY

But "would I risk my health to go back to work, and so others can go back to work and not have to worry about whether they are going to lose everything, knowing I still have to be smart and diligent, and oh-by-the-way, the dipshits that are eating lunch at Hooters and playing Fortnite get fined for violating the ordinances that have been established for all of our well-being", maybe.  Not saying I would, but it's a different question.

But this is the rub, isn't it.  People don't know enough to be "smart and diligent" do they?  Without looking it up, do you know how long the virus lives on various surfaces?  Do you know how to protect yourself at the grocery store?  Do you know the incubation period?  Do you know how many days you could be shedding the virus before showing symptoms?  I could go on with about a dozen other questions that you may or may not know the answer to.  You're a smart guy.  Do you assume others are that "smart and diligent" because if you don't, then what you are suggesting is putting us all at risk for waves of more sheltering in place.  If you or someone else in your office make the wrong choice about one small thing and then head to your office to get this economy "back on track" then you are at risk once again.  You willing to bet your family's life on those odds?

Not to be a smart ass, but ball park I do.   This is my understanding, hand to heart from memory:  Cardboard, 24 hours.  Airborne, 3 to 5 hours.   Steel and plastic, anywhere from 24 to 48 hours.  I don't know the incubation period (more correctly, I don't know the difference between that and the "shedding virus" question) but it's my understanding 2 to 14 days.     

I don't say this to show off, and I realize we're getting into "life philosophies" here, but at SOME point there needs to be a shift back from "all the innocent, diligent, conscientious people carrying the water for the dipshits" to "incentivizing behavior of the dipshits to protect the rest of us".   I have absolutely zero illusions on this point, but there's a real part of me that would love this virus to be a wakeup call for those that have this belief that "no matter what I do, government will take care of me".   Since I can see it coming from here, I am NOT talking about those that CAN'T.  I'm talking about those that WON'T.   There just aren't meaningful consequences anymore.   

We don't seem to have any problem with "enforcement" of government edicts - IRS penalties for not buying into the ACA, for example; shaming and ostracization for those that we unilaterally judge to be racially insensitive - so why not "enforce" those things that aren't ideological, but a matter of survival? 

Right now, the way our country is run (NOT a shot at Trump, a shot at our citizenry) no, I'm not willing to take the chance; that's not to say that that's the optimum solution.  We have, now, hundreds of millions of people, if not BILLIONS of people, effectively held hostage by thousands or millions.  It's nebulous and intangible when we're talking about "gun laws" or identity politics, but as the kids say, "shit just got real" and people are dying as a result of "stupid".   How about an attempted murder charge for those fuckers lounging on Daytona Beach?  Or if that's too harsh, a conspiracy charge for those that knowingly and in defiance of the local regulations, decided it was more important to play cornhole and pound brewskis than manage this epidemic?   Consequences for your choices.     

Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #194 on: March 25, 2020, 08:32:59 AM »
Consequences for your choices.   

I have zero problem with people having consequences for their choices.  Right now I have a HUGE problem with consequences for those choices causing harm to me or my family.  Not to mention the stress and strain on our medical system right now.  Those dipshits mean that if someone I love is in an accident or has a heart attack their risk is just multiplied by an astronomical number by simply walking into an emergency room.

FTR, I assumed you knew those answers.  That wasn't the point.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #195 on: March 25, 2020, 08:39:49 AM »
This notion of getting things 'back on track' by Easter is incredibly dangerous.  As Bill Gates put it yesterday

“The economic effect of this is really dramatic. Nothing like this has ever happened to the economy in our lifetimes,” Gates said. “But bringing the economy back ... that’s more of a reversible thing than bringing people back to life. So we’re going to take the pain in the economic dimension — huge pain — in order to minimize the pain in the diseases-and-death dimension.”

When you've got an administration that is (seemingly) singularly focused on economic indicators (GDP and the Stock Market), that leads to very bad decision making.  Seems POTUS wants to put the economic health of the nation ahead of the actual health of his citizens.

Honest question:  who's decision is it to emphasize the "economic dimension" versus the "diseases-and-death dimension"?  Isn't that really more a question of "do we focus on the individual, or the group"?  Don't we do that calculus all the time?   Isn't "bad decision making" really the same thing as "a bad song", in that it's in the eye (ear?) of the beholder? 

There's also the dimension of the give-and-take of competing interests.  It doesn't work that way in practice, because of petty, childish bullcrap, but the general idea of bipartisan politics is that this side argues it's ideology, that side argues theirs, and at the end of the day adults meet in the middle with a compromise that either both can live with, or neither is thrilled with, but serves the most people the best.  We've careened into the ditch by moralizing everything so that actual compromise is to a large degree impossible (think about abortion; you cannot, literally, split the baby). 

I get it, we're supposed to be outraged by Trump at this point, but is his pushing for "Easter" bad, if it's a check and balance between the "economic dimension" and the "disease and death dimension"?  Fauci himself said that Trump's timeline is "flexible", which suggests to me that there is a debate as to the timeline, as opposed to a unilateral acceptance of one rigid point of view. 

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #196 on: March 25, 2020, 08:47:16 AM »
To your first honest question....outside of black/white, the practical answer is no.

To your last bit, the problem is that Trump didn't say flexible timeline. The credible scientist did. The scientist doesn't make that final decision. Trump does. Trump said Easter. He picked Easter to both pander to the religious crowd (since it's as much of a date out of a hat as any other) and also because his concerns are mostly financial at this point. So if Trump said "I will 100% listen to the scientists and base my decision on their input" and actually stuck to it, that'd be one thing. But he didn't. He just said he wants everything back by Easter. If a credible scientist disagreed, at the moment that is meaningless since it's unpredictable how much Trump cares what the scientist says in the end.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #197 on: March 25, 2020, 08:49:36 AM »
Consequences for your choices.   

I have zero problem with people having consequences for their choices.  Right now I have a HUGE problem with consequences for those choices causing harm to me or my family.  Not to mention the stress and strain on our medical system right now.  Those dipshits mean that if someone I love is in an accident or has a heart attack their risk is just multiplied by an astronomical number by simply walking into an emergency room.

FTR, I assumed you knew those answers.  That wasn't the point.

I put them out there not to show off, but to have them out there yet again. Can't repeat them enough, if you ask me.   Even if one person here was unclear, maybe they can be less unclear. 

I don't disagree with your position.  I really don't.  I disagree with some of the logic behind how we - collective, not you - are handling it.   I'm certainly not saying to let them do their thing; I'm saying change the incentives so that they do the right thing, instead of playing defense with everyone else.    Look at it this way:  we're all effectively quarantined, and the dipshits are STILL doing their thing, and STILL overloading the system.  It's not like the quarantine has resulted in an overstock of respirators and a fleet of open hospital beds.  We kind of have the worst of all worlds: we've got the strain on our system, AND we're all suffering socially, economically, physically, AND the dipshits (if you haven't noticed, I LOVE that word) are acting as if it doesn't matter, no remorse, no lesson learned.

(And by the way, it's not ALL kids; I have to say, my daughter and her friends - there's about eight or ten of them in the group - are a pretty tight clique, and all go to school rather far apart.   When home for break, it's still a big thing for them to all get together, and yet, as of today, they have not risked a meeting even once, even in smaller groups.  I heard what I thought was "cheering" from my daughter's room the other night and it was all of them on a video group chat thing.  I have no idea how they did it, but I have to say I'm kind of impressed.   Either with them or their parents for putting the hammer down.)

Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #198 on: March 25, 2020, 08:57:40 AM »
But don't you see?  It isn't just the dipshits.  It's people who are uninformed (homeless people in my community don't know what's going on, elderly people who don't have access to the internet, people who believe all they have to do is trust in <insert deity>).  People who make that one error in judgment (my spouse is coughing but we needed groceries, I'm feeling better today so I can tell my neighbor it's ok to come over, I'm going insane with my kids in the house just let them play with the kid next door).

Kudos to your daughter.  I don't mean to imply that dipshits are only the spring breakers getting drunk in Florida because fuck everyone else.  I know many responsible kids - mine are 2 of them too.  But just yesterday I say a group of high school boys congregating at the park on the swings that are technically closed, probably getting high together.

I'm not willing to sacrifice someone I love because of the stock market.  I'm just not.  I hope that you aren't willing to do that either.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #199 on: March 25, 2020, 09:00:31 AM »
We have, now, hundreds of millions of people, if not BILLIONS of people, effectively held hostage by thousands or millions. 

I don't see that BILLIONS are being held hostage by the actions/behaviours/decisions of millions.  We're being held hostage by the virus.  There is simply no way to 100% lock everyone down.  Define "essential" however tightly or broadly you (royal) want, there is no way to choke this virus out solely thru physical distancing.  By promoting immediate (relatively speaking) relaxing of that physical distancing strategy for economic gain is dangerous.  Metaphorically, and literally should it happen.

Bill... are you willing to 'do your part' by going back to work if you're healthy enough to do so in 2 weeks?  If you're a church going man/family, are you going to Easter Mass?  I mean, what's good for the flock has to be executed upon by the individual geese, right?

To your last comment, the "overloading" of the systems is not because of the dipshits behaviour today or yesterday... it's because of everyone's behaviour 10-20 days ago.  The dipshits are simply going to continue to exponentially exacerbate the crush on healthcare for weeks to come.  And at that point in time, POTUS suggests that America re-start the cycle all over again?
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #200 on: March 25, 2020, 09:02:47 AM »
This notion of getting things 'back on track' by Easter is incredibly dangerous.  As Bill Gates put it yesterday

“The economic effect of this is really dramatic. Nothing like this has ever happened to the economy in our lifetimes,” Gates said. “But bringing the economy back ... that’s more of a reversible thing than bringing people back to life. So we’re going to take the pain in the economic dimension — huge pain — in order to minimize the pain in the diseases-and-death dimension.”

When you've got an administration that is (seemingly) singularly focused on economic indicators (GDP and the Stock Market), that leads to very bad decision making.  Seems POTUS wants to put the economic health of the nation ahead of the actual health of his citizens.

Good post and I think it mostly reflects my own thoughts on the matter. One thing I will say is that I sometimes catch myself not having enough sympathy for the economic pain that so many people are feeling right now. It's easy to be so focused on the disease-and-death dimension that you forget about other ones. If I had more faith in the current administration, then I could maybe mistake their economic concerns for genuine human sympathy, but sadly I am perhaps too cynical to do that.

Please note that I am not speaking to anyone directly here. Just more of a general, introspective musing on the matter.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #201 on: March 25, 2020, 09:16:13 AM »
To your first honest question....outside of black/white, the practical answer is no.

To your last bit, the problem is that Trump didn't say flexible timeline. The credible scientist did. The scientist doesn't make that final decision. Trump does. Trump said Easter. He picked Easter to both pander to the religious crowd (since it's as much of a date out of a hat as any other) and also because his concerns are mostly financial at this point. So if Trump said "I will 100% listen to the scientists and base my decision on their input" and actually stuck to it, that'd be one thing. But he didn't. He just said he wants everything back by Easter. If a credible scientist disagreed, at the moment that is meaningless since it's unpredictable how much Trump cares what the scientist says in the end.

What can I tell you?  We'll all find out in 14 days.  Nothing that happens here is going to change minds.  Those predisposed to not believing a word he says will still assume that everything they don't like is truth and everything they do like are lies pandering to the "base". Those predisposed to something else will remain predisposed to something else.

I know for me, it's a crisis situation, and in such a situation, you make no decision unless and until you absolutely have to.   So for me, I have this evidence (all from the article):

Fauci: “So I think people might get the misinterpretation you’re just going to lift everything up. … That’s not going to happen. It’s going to be looking at the data."
Trump: “every decision we make is grounded solely in the health, safety and wellbeing of our citizens”
Trump: he would listen to advice from health officials like Fauci, Dr. Deborah Birx and other advisers when making a decision.
Trump: “I think that would be a great thing for our country and we’re all working very hard to make that a reality. We’ll be meeting with a lot of people to see if it can be done".

Coupled with the fact that no restrictions have yet been lifted, and my governor has (thankfully) been following Cuomo more than Trump, I'm in it to win it for the long haul (CT just announced that school is out at LEAST until April 20th).  I also think that while Trump is stupid, he's not dumb; I think even under the worst assumptions of his character and motivations, he knows that telling Fauci to go f--- himself won't endear him even to his "base" and won't move the markets in the manner he intends. 

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #202 on: March 25, 2020, 09:31:08 AM »
I don't think Trump should have brought up this Easter idea.  He clearly just came up with it due to the holiday itself as he even admitted.  I *think* the reason to say this is to give people the feeling of a light at the end of the tunnel.  If you are following along, I think it's fairly obvious that we will not be in the clear by then.  Having said that, maybe the curve does start to slow down and in 2 weeks we are closer to actually knowing a date when this can end. 

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #203 on: March 25, 2020, 09:50:27 AM »
Imagine being the individual tasked with making a decision between
potentially killing people vs. potentially sending the country into a
spiraling depression that could take generations to recover from.

Bottom line is, at some point (There will be naysayers regardless of when)
the country has to ramp up and move forward. When that is, nobody knows
yet.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #204 on: March 25, 2020, 10:13:28 AM »
We have, now, hundreds of millions of people, if not BILLIONS of people, effectively held hostage by thousands or millions. 

I don't see that BILLIONS are being held hostage by the actions/behaviours/decisions of millions.  We're being held hostage by the virus.  There is simply no way to 100% lock everyone down.  Define "essential" however tightly or broadly you (royal) want, there is no way to choke this virus out solely thru physical distancing.  By promoting immediate (relatively speaking) relaxing of that physical distancing strategy for economic gain is dangerous.  Metaphorically, and literally should it happen.

Couple things here; one, remember that I'm working on the premise that we are in our current situation because the world - not JUST Trump, but he's in there too - didn't take appropriate steps fast enough. I'm keeping it in check because it's not productive, and I'm just not that invested to risk charges of xenophobia, but don't forget that I hold China responsible for this, full stop.  For as bad as anyone thinks Trump has responded here, or the dipshits, I believe China - who should know better, but clearly care less - has been exponentially worse.

I'll repeat this to Harmony because she raised a similar point, but I'm also not simplifying the calculus to as simple as "Life versus economic gain/the stock market".  I think it's a balance, and a balance with multiple variables, one of which is "the economy".  "The economy" isn't just about "economic gain", it's about sustenance and survival for many.  And for some, not wrongly for various reasons that we can discuss (and which I've discussed here in the past), the stock market is a bellweather for that.   I'm responding to what I see as a calculus by many - NO ONE HERE, this is not a veiled comment to you, Harmony, or anyone else - that is ONE variable: "my well-being".

Quote
Bill... are you willing to 'do your part' by going back to work if you're healthy enough to do so in 2 weeks?  If you're a church going man/family, are you going to Easter Mass?  I mean, what's good for the flock has to be executed upon by the individual geese, right?

Yes, and no.  Yes, to work, because I can take my precautions as best I can.  Worship, no (though that may be my bias speaking; I'm not a group worship guy).   If you're asking whether I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, sure, and why wouldn't I? 

Quote
To your last comment, the "overloading" of the systems is not because of the dipshits behaviour today or yesterday... it's because of everyone's behaviour 10-20 days ago.  The dipshits are simply going to continue to exponentially exacerbate the crush on healthcare for weeks to come.  And at that point in time, POTUS suggests that America re-start the cycle all over again?

Well, I mean this respectfully because it's on me, but I'm not sure what you're asking there.   I can't and won't speak for the President, but to the extent I support the discussion for lifting restriction - not to split hairs, but the "discussion" to lift the restrictions is not the same as "actually" lifting the restrictions - I'm not suggesting we go back to day one and do nothing.  Fourteen days from now, we're fourteen days smarter than we were, we're fourteen days closer to herd immunity, we're fourteen days more removed from that initial period where people acted as if that 100 degree fever was "allergies".   We put the draconian protections in place in part as a response to the lack of all those things.   This is a crisis, no question.  And in crises, information changes on a moments notice at times, and even when it doesn't, information is ever-evolving.   Think back to 9/11; in the hours after the four events (each tower, the Pentagon, and Flight 93) we acted as if there could be four or 40 more at any moment.  And as time and intelligence improved, we morphed from immediate lockdown for an emergency, to more of a pro-active prophalactic approach to prevent general future acts of terrorism. 

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #205 on: March 25, 2020, 10:17:56 AM »
Imagine being the individual tasked with making a decision between
potentially killing people vs. potentially sending the country into a
spiraling depression that could take generations to recover from.

Bottom line is, at some point (There will be naysayers regardless of when)
the country has to ramp up and move forward. When that is, nobody knows
yet.

I don't think this is the correct 'either/or' scenario.  Even the Great Depression didn't take "generations" to recover.  IMO, if societies take the right steps no, this is only a year or two of economic pain - the same or marginally worse than the Financial sector meltdown 12 years ago.  If we don't take the right steps now, it could very well be half a decade of pain.

You're right, at some point we have to move forward... when the data points suggest the cases and deaths are indeed levelling off - for a period of at least 2-3 weeks.  The removal of restrictions need to be slow and calculated to continue minimizing the risk of a second wave.
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Offline DragonAttack

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #206 on: March 25, 2020, 10:24:40 AM »
Imagine being the individual tasked with making a decision between potentially killing people vs. potentially sending the country into a
spiraling depression that could take generations to recover from.

Bottom line is, at some point (There will be naysayers regardless of when) the country has to ramp up and move forward. When that is, nobody knows yet.

Maryland Dept of Education, with the governor's endorsement, closed schools until April 24th.  It is still leaving the door open for the resumption of classes.  Once again, the smart thing to do.

"I'd rather die."  Glenn Beck joins the GOP call for old people to sacrifice themselves to coronavirus.  Feel free to go to the front of line, axehole.  Take your buddy Rush with you.

Meanwhile, this is the track record and thought pattern of one 'individual' who is so far behind the curve (while Taiwan was conducting tests on incoming passengers starting in January).

January 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.”
February 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China.”
February 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
February 25: “CDC and my Administration are doing a GREAT job of handling Coronavirus.”
February 25: “I think that's a problem that’s going to go away… They have studied it. They know very much. In fact, we’re very close to a vaccine.”
February 26: “The 15 (cases in the US) within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero.”
February 26: “We're going very substantially down, not up.”
February 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
February 28: “We're ordering a lot of supplies. We're ordering a lot of, uh, elements that frankly we wouldn't be ordering unless it was something like this. But we're ordering a lot of different elements of medical.”
March 2: “You take a solid flu vaccine, you don't think that could have an impact, or much of an impact, on corona?”
March 2: “A lot of things are happening, a lot of very exciting things are happening and they’re happening very rapidly.”
March 4: “If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work — some of them go to work, but they get better.”
March 5: “I NEVER said people that are feeling sick should go to work.”
March 5: “The United States… has, as of now, only 129 cases… and 11 deaths. We are working very hard to keep these numbers as low as possible!”
March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
March 6: “Anybody right now, and yesterday, anybody that needs a test gets a test. They’re there. And the tests are beautiful…. the tests are all perfect like the letter was perfect. The transcription was perfect. Right? This was not as perfect as that but pretty good.”
March 6: “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it… Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should have done that instead of running for president.”
March 6: “I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault.”
March 8: “We have a perfectly coordinated and fine tuned plan at the White House for our attack on CoronaVirus.”
March 9: “This blindsided the world.”

An Easter 'reopening'.....what, so he can claim he 'resurrected' the country and the world?  I knew he was a narcissistic egomaniac, but this raised it yet another level.

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Offline The Walrus

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #207 on: March 25, 2020, 10:27:10 AM »
Quote
An Easter 'reopening'.....what, so he can claim he 'resurrected' the country and the world?  I knew he was a narcissistic egomaniac, but this raised it yet another level.

If it was anybody but Trump, this would be a hilarious parody, but he already jumped at the chance to call himself a 'wartime president', so, he probably does think he can put himself on the level of Jesus if this thing sorts itself out in due time
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #208 on: March 25, 2020, 10:30:37 AM »
To add to DragonAttack's post, a lot of people (myself included) are railing against China for how they handled this. I believe Trump also said he would've liked 2-3 months prior notice.

Well, it seems Trump made aware in early-mid January at the latest, which was maybe 2-3 weeks after all of this STARTED. It didn't become a noticeable threat until the beginning of Jan/very very end of December. I'm not sure how much more time would have helped America make a drastically different approach. It seems how America handled this is at least 98% on America.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #209 on: March 25, 2020, 10:33:18 AM »
Couple things here; one, *blaming China*

All accurate and fair.  But I don't see how any of that matters now.  To steal a comparable adage of yours... see things for how they are, not for how they could've been.  ;)

Quote
Bill... are you willing to 'do your part' by going back to work if you're healthy enough to do so in 2 weeks?  If you're a church going man/family, are you going to Easter Mass?  I mean, what's good for the flock has to be executed upon by the individual geese, right?

Yes, and no.  Yes, to work, because I can take my precautions as best I can.  Worship, no (though that may be my bias speaking; I'm not a group worship guy).   If you're asking whether I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, sure, and why wouldn't I?

Why wouldn't you ?? ... because of all the other "dipshits" that you've pointed out who did not take even the most basic hygiene precautions and got the US to where it's at. And when the #1 precaution is physical distancing, if millions of people go back to work, you're all breaking the #1 precaution... ergo NOT taking precautions 'as best you can'.  You may trust yourself, but do you trust every single one of the millions of others that would also be going back to work if what POTUS suggests he would like is what he actually does?

Quote
To your last comment, the "overloading" of the systems is not because of the dipshits behaviour today or yesterday... it's because of everyone's behaviour 10-20 days ago.  The dipshits are simply going to continue to exponentially exacerbate the crush on healthcare for weeks to come.  And at that point in time, POTUS suggests that America re-start the cycle all over again?

Well, I mean this respectfully because it's on me, but I'm not sure what you're asking there.   I can't and won't speak for the President, but to the extent I support the discussion for lifting restriction - not to split hairs, but the "discussion" to lift the restrictions is not the same as "actually" lifting the restrictions - I'm not suggesting we go back to day one and do nothing. 

No specific question, and you're absolutely right - words and actions are two different things.  Perhaps POTUS us just SAYING these things in the hopes of placating the people and the markets.  Lord, one can only hope.
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