Author Topic: The Politics Of The Coronavirus  (Read 47081 times)

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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #140 on: March 22, 2020, 03:40:09 PM »
 :lol ridiculous, but honestly, how many of us would test positive if they tested everyone?  I really wonder what the true infection of the population is.

Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #141 on: March 22, 2020, 03:43:30 PM »
I was being super snarky and honestly I can see the need to test prisoners to keep prison staff healthy.  But I am aware of many healthcare workers (and childcare workers) who are finding it difficult to get the test even with probable exposure to an infected person.  I realize this varies from state to state.

COVID-19 is out there rampantly, no doubt.  I'm more interested in ensuring a good antibody testing process than testing for C-19 at this point.  That said, all healthcare workers on the front lines should not have any difficulty getting testing.  That is simply egregious.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #142 on: March 22, 2020, 04:06:31 PM »
I posted this same video in the Coronavirus thread, but it quickly got buried amidst all the replies there. No idea whether anybody would want to watch this, maybe it;s just more fuel to the fire, but I thought this video captured Donald Trump's curious stance on the Coronavirus quite clearly.

https://therecount.com/watch/trump-coronavirus-calendar/2645515793

I caught that on the first run. Itís as if heís intent on cluster skull fucking this whole thing. Watched some pretty revealing things about how the events unfolded in China. Truly horrifying. And I donít for one second believe the current stats coming out of them. Id bet theyíre just controlling the narrative better.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #143 on: March 22, 2020, 04:27:31 PM »
So Rand Paul - supposedly a physician himself - while awaiting the results of his COVID-19 test decided to head out to the senate gym this morning and go swimming.   ::)  And before someone trying to defend him helpfully points out that chlorine is a pretty good disinfectant, it still puts him in contact with numerous surfaces and people who aren't chlorinated. 

Dumbass.  And why is the fucking senate gym still open??

https://www.tmz.com/2020/03/22/senator-rand-paul-tests-positive-coronavirus-quarantine/
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #144 on: March 23, 2020, 06:13:52 AM »
At least two Nigerians are in hospital after being poisoned by an unproven drug that U.S. President Donald Trump is touting as a possible cure for the novel coronavirus.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-at-least-two-cases-of-chloroquine-poisoning-in-nigeria-after-trump/
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #145 on: March 23, 2020, 06:38:37 AM »
At least two Nigerians are in hospital after being poisoned by an unproven drug that U.S. President Donald Trump is touting as a possible cure for the novel coronavirus.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-at-least-two-cases-of-chloroquine-poisoning-in-nigeria-after-trump/

Apparently whatever people do based on Trump's words are 100% on them and Trump has no responsibility in the slightest bit. Spider-Man is sad.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #146 on: March 23, 2020, 08:47:38 AM »
At least two Nigerians are in hospital after being poisoned by an unproven drug that U.S. President Donald Trump is touting as a possible cure for the novel coronavirus.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-at-least-two-cases-of-chloroquine-poisoning-in-nigeria-after-trump/

Apparently whatever people do based on Trump's words are 100% on them and Trump has no responsibility in the slightest bit. Spider-Man is sad.

It's not really productive to go to the other extreme either, though, is it?  If Trump says it, and one feels empowered by their hate for the President, then he's responsible, regardless of what it is, and regardless of any intervening facts.   The article mentions, but downplays, that the drug is banned in Nigeria, but is nonetheless available in pharmacies without a prescription (presumably that puts the pharmacies in line for some of the blame).  It also mentions, and downplays, that others (including Andrew Cuomo) mentioned it's possible efficacy as a treatment as well.  It does not mention whether either of those two people heard or know of Trump's claims (or whether they were acting on it, nor how many cases of poisoning occurred before the announcement; without numbers it's impossible to tell but it's not unreasonable to conclude that "two cases" is not statistically conclusive.   On a related note, I'm waiting for Morgan Spurlock to come out any day now and blame the President for his liver dysfunction.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 11:15:51 AM by Stadler »

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #147 on: March 23, 2020, 08:50:42 AM »
I knew I could get you to come back by giving something to defend Trump for.  :biggrin: criticizing Trump is like saying Stadler three times. Haha.

No, the extremeness of my comment was ironic, not actual.

I was responding to the thought that Trump bares no responsibility for how his words might influence people (unless he's giving direct orders). Obviously I am not saying he bares 100% responsibility, but he does bare a decent amount. With great power, etc etc. His power can't be ignored when it comes to the influence of his words.

Edit: I am not talking about a legal responsibility, since that is not my domain. But more an ethical or moral responsibility.

I know, I know, morality is a bad word, but it ain't, so I'll keep using it.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 09:03:34 AM by Adami »
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #148 on: March 23, 2020, 09:08:12 AM »
I'll grant Stads this one.  There are way too many extenuating circumstances / variables to suggest any correlation on this matter.  It could just be media making the connection when none exists.  It would seem the only correlation is coincidental timing.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #149 on: March 23, 2020, 09:26:39 AM »
Considering Coumo just said they are using that drug in testing, it's hard to say any one person's words are a reason for someone to just do something stupid.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #150 on: March 23, 2020, 09:30:41 AM »
Considering Coumo just said they are using that drug in testing, it's hard to say any one person's words are a reason for someone to just do something stupid.

Totally. My response was more in general, and not specifically about this in isolation. The idea that he can say whatever he wants and should bare no responsibility for what people do with those words is what I'm arguing against, and more in a general sense than an absolute sense.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #151 on: March 23, 2020, 09:37:45 AM »
Yea, I mean, his words do matter.  If you watched that press conference after Trump said that drug might work, Fauci came right on and immediately shut that down.  Those words matter too.  I just wish everytime our POTUS said something there would be a text alert to take everything said with a grain of salt. 

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #152 on: March 23, 2020, 09:44:24 AM »
or the entire shaker
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #153 on: March 23, 2020, 09:44:52 AM »
Yea, I mean, his words do matter.  If you watched that press conference after Trump said that drug might work, Fauci came right on and immediately shut that down.  Those words matter too.  I just wish everytime our POTUS said something there would be a text alert to take everything said with a grain of salt.

True that. I just wish we lived in a world where such salt was needed.
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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #154 on: March 23, 2020, 09:48:17 AM »
or the entire shaker

More like Bonneville
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #155 on: March 23, 2020, 10:02:40 AM »
I was responding to the thought that Trump bares no responsibility for how his words might influence people (unless he's giving direct orders). Obviously I am not saying he bares 100% responsibility, but he does bare a decent amount. With great power, etc etc. His power can't be ignored when it comes to the influence of his words.

Indeed.  In about another week, it's going to be an even bigger shit show.

Quote
President Trump and some of his senior officials are losing patience with the doctorsí orders.

The state of play: Amid dire predictions for jobs and the economy, the White House is beginning to send signals to business that there's light at the end of the tunnel ó that the squeeze from nationwide social distancing won't be endless.

Trump tweeted at 10 minutes to midnight: "WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD [which began a week ago, March 16], WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!"

Vice President Pence, who heads the White House's Coronavirus Task Force, had signaled the change in tone earlier when he said the CDC will issue guidance today allowing people exposed to the coronavirus to return to work sooner by wearing a mask for a certain length of time.

Why it matters: Taken together, Trumpís tweet and Pence's comment supply the strongest public signals we've seen that the administration is looking for ways to get people out in the world again to fire up the economy ó perhaps much sooner than Dr. Fauci would like.

Trump is responding both to his own instincts and to messages that key outside allies have been sending for days.
He retweeted a number of those outside allies echoing similar stances on Monday morning.

Between the lines: Senior Trump officials, including the president himself, have only limited patience for keeping the economy shut down. They are watching stocks tumble and unemployment skyrocket.

Whatís next: At the end of the 15-day period, there will likely be a serious clash between the public health experts ó who will almost certainly favor a longer period of nationwide social distancing and quarantining ó versus the president and his economic and political aides, who are anxious to restart the economy.

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-economy-recession-donald-trump-0b5ab109-1a5e-4397-b54b-5f17d802c029.html
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #156 on: March 23, 2020, 11:22:10 AM »
I knew I could get you to come back by giving something to defend Trump for.  :biggrin: criticizing Trump is like saying Stadler three times. Haha.

No, the extremeness of my comment was ironic, not actual.

I was responding to the thought that Trump bares no responsibility for how his words might influence people (unless he's giving direct orders). Obviously I am not saying he bares 100% responsibility, but he does bare a decent amount. With great power, etc etc. His power can't be ignored when it comes to the influence of his words.

Edit: I am not talking about a legal responsibility, since that is not my domain. But more an ethical or moral responsibility.

I know, I know, morality is a bad word, but it ain't, so I'll keep using it.

Not at all defending Trump.   Couldn't give a rats ass about Trump.  But for all the talk about rising about politics and dealing with this as humans, there seems to be an awful lot of politics still in there.    I'm well aware of his inanity; watching his press conferences has to be almost like sticking your finger in a lightsocket for a psychologist (or for me, watching Ally McBeal).

I don't actually disagree with your point on morality; I wouldn't say it if it was me.  But I have a problem with supplanting someone else's morals with my own (and vice versa).  There's a LOT that politicians do that I wouldn't if it was me, and at the end of the day, we're still responsible for own behavior. 

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #157 on: March 23, 2020, 12:09:39 PM »
We are, indeed responsible for our own behavior, and what Trump is doing is his behavior, and how his behavior influences others (in a situation like his with his kinds of actions, so don't read this as a blanket absolute statement) is his responsibility. It doesn't absolve the other person in the slightest bit. It is, however, part of the equation.

If an Imam is preaching day in/day out about how all Christians are trying to destroy the Muslim faith, which needs to be defended, and then one of his listeners goes out and kills a bunch of Christians, then the Imam is responsible for his role in that, even if the killer assumes ultimate responsibility for the actions. Ya dig?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #158 on: March 23, 2020, 12:14:09 PM »
We are, indeed responsible for our own behavior, and what Trump is doing is his behavior, and how his behavior influences others (in a situation like his with his kinds of actions, so don't read this as a blanket absolute statement) is his responsibility. It doesn't absolve the other person in the slightest bit. It is, however, part of the equation.

If an Imam is preaching day in/day out about how all Christians are trying to destroy the Muslim faith, which needs to be defended, and then one of his listeners goes out and kills a bunch of Christians, then the Imam is responsible for his role in that, even if the killer assumes ultimate responsibility for the actions. Ya dig?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong...because the argument has many nuances.   But you realize that this is the exact same argument people have been bringing against video games, music, and movies for years, don't you?
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #159 on: March 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM »
We are, indeed responsible for our own behavior, and what Trump is doing is his behavior, and how his behavior influences others (in a situation like his with his kinds of actions, so don't read this as a blanket absolute statement) is his responsibility. It doesn't absolve the other person in the slightest bit. It is, however, part of the equation.

If an Imam is preaching day in/day out about how all Christians are trying to destroy the Muslim faith, which needs to be defended, and then one of his listeners goes out and kills a bunch of Christians, then the Imam is responsible for his role in that, even if the killer assumes ultimate responsibility for the actions. Ya dig?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong...because the argument has many nuances.   But you realize that this is the exact same argument people have been bringing against video games, music, and movies for years, don't you?

It is not. But I can see how they look similar.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #160 on: March 23, 2020, 01:29:48 PM »
We are, indeed responsible for our own behavior, and what Trump is doing is his behavior, and how his behavior influences others (in a situation like his with his kinds of actions, so don't read this as a blanket absolute statement) is his responsibility. It doesn't absolve the other person in the slightest bit. It is, however, part of the equation.

If an Imam is preaching day in/day out about how all Christians are trying to destroy the Muslim faith, which needs to be defended, and then one of his listeners goes out and kills a bunch of Christians, then the Imam is responsible for his role in that, even if the killer assumes ultimate responsibility for the actions. Ya dig?

"I dig", in the sense that I understand (and I fully condone the use of the term "dig") but I'm skeptical, not least because I find the application of that to be random and subjective at best.  It only seems to crop up when we don't have better arguments against something we don't like.

(And eagerly awaiting your answer to Jammindude.)

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #161 on: March 23, 2020, 02:00:04 PM »
It is subjective. Itís not black and white and absolute. But that doesnít make it random nor is it implying a lack of argument.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #162 on: March 23, 2020, 02:01:25 PM »
It is subjective. Itís not black and white and absolute. But that doesnít make it random nor is it implying a lack of argument.

That's a response worthy of Stadler....   :D
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Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #163 on: March 23, 2020, 02:02:40 PM »
It is subjective. Itís not black and white and absolute. But that doesnít make it random nor is it implying a lack of argument.

That's a response worthy of Stadler....   :D

Intentionally. Since it is a response to Stadler haha.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #164 on: March 24, 2020, 09:37:28 AM »
Cuomo is a rock star.  I've never been more moved by a politician.
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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #165 on: March 24, 2020, 09:43:57 AM »
Cuomo is a rock star.  I've never been more moved by a politician.

Can they just swap him out with Biden right now and be done with it? I've been impressed with his leadership. He's actually the ONLY politician showing leadership right now.
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Offline Vmadera00

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #166 on: March 24, 2020, 10:35:45 AM »
Cuomo is a rock star.  I've never been more moved by a politician.

I would've agree with you about 3 weeks ago.

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #167 on: March 24, 2020, 10:38:06 AM »
Cuomo is a rock star.  I've never been more moved by a politician.

Can they just swap him out with Biden right now and be done with it? I've been impressed with his leadership. He's actually the ONLY politician showing leadership right now.

His press conferences have been really great from what I've seen.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #168 on: March 24, 2020, 10:55:50 AM »
Cuomo is a rock star.  I've never been more moved by a politician.

Can they just swap him out with Biden right now and be done with it? I've been impressed with his leadership. He's actually the ONLY politician showing leadership right now.

His press conferences have been really great from what I've seen.

Yea, he's been really impressive. And a very stark contrast to the Trump conferences right after.

Trump: I take no responsibility
Cuomo: These decisions are on me, if you're upset, be upset with me. I take full responsibility.
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Offline The Walrus

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #169 on: March 24, 2020, 11:12:14 AM »
I hope when this thing eventually blows over that more attention gets paid to the contrast between the behavior of those two men.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #170 on: March 24, 2020, 11:37:22 AM »
There's little doubt in my mind that our leaders will be judged greatly on how they treat this situation.  Sadly it seems Trump can do no wrong though, his reaction to the reporter last week should have been enough, but we all know that will be forgotten about quickly and just added to the dumpster pile of unpresidential qualities he has that his base won't care about.

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #171 on: March 24, 2020, 11:42:50 AM »
There's little doubt in my mind that our leaders will be judged greatly on how they treat this situation.  Sadly it seems Trump can do no wrong though, his reaction to the reporter last week should have been enough, but we all know that will be forgotten about quickly and just added to the dumpster pile of unpresidential qualities he has that his base won't care about.

I've seen a whole lot of people praising how brilliantly Trump is handling this. I don't get it, but apparently the standard has been lowered so much that anything short of nuking Chicago is going to be hailed as a victory for him at this point. You got me, but it seems to work out for him. People are loving it.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #172 on: March 24, 2020, 11:46:03 AM »
There's little doubt in my mind that our leaders will be judged greatly on how they treat this situation.  Sadly it seems Trump can do no wrong though, his reaction to the reporter last week should have been enough, but we all know that will be forgotten about quickly and just added to the dumpster pile of unpresidential qualities he has that his base won't care about.

I've seen a whole lot of people praising how brilliantly Trump is handling this. I don't get it, but apparently the standard has been lowered so much that anything short of nuking Chicago is going to be hailed as a victory for him at this point. You got me, but it seems to work out for him. People are loving it.

I definitely think there are some overreactions to his criticisms, as there always have been, but there's so many legit things I find issue with on his handling and the stark difference between him and Coumo just shows Trump can be doing SO much better.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #173 on: March 24, 2020, 11:55:45 AM »
Cuomo SHOULD be held up as a paradigm.  Granted, I'm a fanboy (I'm like the guy that got into REM on the Reckoning tour, then got all bitter when they hit arenas for the Green tour!  :)  :tup) but he's doing all the little things right.

But instead, there's a reasonable chance that those among us with a four-day (or less) attention span will apply them to Trump v. Biden, and we're going to be back to c***-swingin' at it's morally bankrupt, sickening worst.

Question for the group, though:  what exactly is Biden's strategy here?  Why isn't he getting up in front of a box of supplies, on a daily basis, giving an update on the situation on the ground?  When I want a job bad enough, I DO it, and THEN ask for the title and the pay.   Biden is not a neophyte; why is he not doing this?   Is it - and I'm not joking here - out of "an abundance of caution" for a 77 year old man?  Whether you like his message or not, the fight is with Trump, and for better or worse, he can at least claim to have been face front and dealing with this.  Come November, I'm seeing a path to a lot of nose-holding and voting for Trump, because even though he sucks, his base isn't tortured by "what could have been" (i.e. Cuomo). 

I've literally seen one clip of Joe since the fan got ruined, and in that he oddly praised jazz legend Charlie Parker who apparently is now, posthumously, governor of Massachusetts, and spent an inordinate amount of time dealing with a failing teleprompter and flailing for his notes behind the lectern that I know we all have in our living room. 

Offline Adami

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Re: The Politics Of The Coronavirus
« Reply #174 on: March 24, 2020, 12:05:46 PM »
I don't, and I doubt any of us do, have an explanation why Biden isn't leading the charge on this specifically, but to the more broad question of Biden's overall plan..........does he even have one?

All I've seen, and I admit to not following it super closely, is that he's not Trump. I got nothing else. Has he represented anything other than not being Trump or Sanders?

Biden will likely go down in history as the guy who lost to Trump....AFTER we all knew how bad Trump was. At least Hillary has the excuse that we didn't know how bad Trump would be yet.
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