DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[Kotowboy]

Speaking of expensive producers. I have to laugh when I see Rap 'producers' with nicknames instead of their real names.

They probably think it sounds cool and mysterious. And what does a RAP producer do anyway?

" Turn the backing track up "

" Turn the vocal up "

Ok that's basically all I know how to do that'll be $500,000

[LKap13]

Yeah Scenes to Octavarium were really good sounding albums.

Systematic was not great sounding. Black Clouds was a little better. I remember Jordan saying they didn't want to compete in the loudness war on that album.

Obviously after Portnoy left the production suffered a bit. A Dramatic Turn of Events sounded really odd. Dream Theater was a bit punchier but had a terrible snare sound.

When I heard The Gift Of Music i felt like the magic of Scenes - Octavarium was back and then finally Distance Over Time - for my money - recaptured that magic.


As a trained producer myself - I sometimes scratch my head when I hear dreadful albums like " How hard can it be to set up microphones and record a band and mix it ? "

How do so many albums sound SO bad ? Like Foo Fighters Concrete and Gold - like - what the F happened ?!

Huge disagree. All those are really dry, and the volume of the instruments is all over the place (for no reason), the kicks sound like white noise, guitars are really muddy at points (solo on Fatal Tragedy comes to mind), bass is inaudible, keyboards are buried except during solos. And all of them clip and are really loud.

Will agree

[Kotowboy]

You're saying Portnoy WASNT the mega producer everyone thought he was?

Songs can be LOUD as long as they dont cause ear fatigue and those albums never did.

Like I said before that's just modern production. The days of Images and Words and Dire Straits On Every Street ( audio perfection ) are GONE.

[LKap13]

Well what strikes me is that jp has openly said he wants to produce. Glad that did something different this time. Btw I know nothing about the actual process of recording /production etc, but the difference between a well produced record and a standard dt record is clear.... I do wonder if the complexity is what makes it MORE challenging

[Kotowboy]

Technically it shouldnt be THAT hard to record a band of 5 people and mix it nicely. If you get a good sound going "to tape" - there's almost no need for EQ.

The band can obviously afford all the best studios with the best mics and the best desk and the best outboard effects.

Yet some bands just completely fuck it up.


A lot of the times it's the label who hear a nicely recorded album and go " that wont sound good on the radio - TURN IT UP SO OUR BANDS ARE THE LOUDEST !! "

But we've already maxed out digital headroom and Death Magnetic is the result.


PLUS We have volume controls on our stereos AND radio has limiters and compression so every song sounds the same volume anyway

[BeatriceNB]

Well what strikes me is that jp has openly said he wants to produce. Glad that did something different this time. Btw I know nothing about the actual process of recording /production etc, but the difference between a well produced record and a standard dt record is clear.... I do wonder if the complexity is what makes it MORE challenging

From an arrangement perspective, DT's music isn't complex (except for The Astonishing and it's 500 iirc layers), it shouldn't be a problem. Plini's Handmade Cities has a lot of layers and it's pretty technical, and sounds amazing.

[Kotowboy]

Exactly. it's essentially guitar bass drums keys and vox.

Plenty of room in the stereo field for all of that. But if you shove loads of compression on everything it just fills out the stereo field and leaves barely any room for anything.

For anyone who isn't up on this stuff - you ever hear an "EDM" track where the bass drum makes the song dip in volume ?

That's calling pumping and if you had that on a rock song it would be an example of very bad limiting and compression where you try to fatten up the kick drum

but it has the effect of making the track dip in volume every time it's hit.

Plus compression erases all dynamics so the quiet part of a song is the exact same volume as the full on heavy part. It's so stupid.

[LKap13]

Well what strikes me is that jp has openly said he wants to produce. Glad that did something different this time. Btw I know nothing about the actual process of recording /production etc, but the difference between a well produced record and a standard dt record is clear.... I do wonder if the complexity is what makes it MORE challenging

From an arrangement perspective, DT's music isn't complex (except for The Astonishing and it's 500 iirc layers), it shouldn't be a problem. Plini's Handmade Cities has a lot of layers and it's pretty technical, and sounds amazing.

Love that album, and it sounds great. Speaking of, Arch Echo sounds a lot like plini meets intervals. Really good stuff... Cool that we have so many actual producers on the forum, very interesting insights

[DoctorAction]

Intervals is smashing. 

[Glasser]

 

[TAC]

Intervals is smashing. 

 

[Ben_Jamin]

Speaking of expensive producers. I have to laugh when I see Rap 'producers' with nicknames instead of their real names.

They probably think it sounds cool and mysterious. And what does a RAP producer do anyway?

" Turn the backing track up "

" Turn the vocal up "

Ok that's basically all I know how to do that'll be $500,000

 

Rap, or in other terms Hip-Hop producers are usually the ones that also make the beats. It's not just in Hip-Hop either, it's also in the R&B genre.

DJ Khaled Explains the Difference between Beatmakers and Producers

How Producers Make Millions: Selling Beats in 2021 W/Illmind

[Ben_Jamin]

You're saying Portnoy WASNT the mega producer everyone thought he was?

Songs can be LOUD as long as they dont cause ear fatigue and those albums never did.

Like I said before that's just modern production. The days of Images and Words and Dire Straits On Every Street ( audio perfection ) are GONE.

I think you're confusing "Production" with "Mixing" and "Mastering".

The producers can make a great sounding record, but it's the mixers and the one who masters the album that determines precisely how the end product sounds.

It's why I would rather buy a "Remixed" re-release of an older album (especially one that does not sound that great) over a "Remastered" release.

[Ben_Jamin]

Well what strikes me is that jp has openly said he wants to produce. Glad that did something different this time. Btw I know nothing about the actual process of recording /production etc, but the difference between a well produced record and a standard dt record is clear.... I do wonder if the complexity is what makes it MORE challenging

Producing records is where you take charge in the overall sound, including using a certain type of guitar for a certain tone, or to tell the Keyboardist to use this patch because it sounds cool.

Now, you have a band that has a lot of different time signatures, tempos, differences in dynamics of soft and loud, various keyboard patches that range in volume, along with the bass, guitars, and many drums and cymbals. All of this is in one song that tends to be around 10 min. Add in a deadline and have fun mixing it to the approval of the producer or whomever has the last say.

The Astonishing sounds as good as it does because of these guys

Richard Chycki – engineering, mixing
Mike Schuppan – engineering
Travis Warner – engineering
Gary Chester – engineering
James "Jimmy T" Meslin – assistant engineer
Dave Rowland – assistant mixer
Jason Stanniulis – assistant mixer
Brandon Williams – music editing and coordination
Ted Jensen – mastering

compared to Train of Thought...

Doug Oberkircher – engineering
Kevin "Caveman" Shirley – mixing
Kieran Pardias, Brian Harding, Yohei Goto, Dan Buchi – assistant engineering
Howie Weinberg – mastering
Roger Lian – digital editing

[jayvee3]

The whole production discussion is one that I never dove into too much, as I don’t have the know how to understand the technicalities. And to be honest, reading everything, I’m kinda glad I don’t…

I look at it like this: I have to drive a lot, so listen to lots of DT music in my car. For some reason on my speaker system in the mighty Toyota Corolla, a good baseline of volume for most music sits at 36. Why 36 -  no idea, it’s just the volume number that sounds good to my ears in general.

So when I listen to DT, as there has been different production on many albums as stated here, some albums or songs may get put up to 38 or a tad more, some might drop a couple. All with a couple of clicks of the finger with the magnificent steering wheel volume buttons (man, those Toyota Corollas are legit )

Bottom line, is I don’t have too much of a problem with anything and a bit of volume control is enough for me. And absolutely to each his/her own, but I’m really kinda glad about that..

[BeatriceNB]

You're saying Portnoy WASNT the mega producer everyone thought he was?

Songs can be LOUD as long as they dont cause ear fatigue and those albums never did.

Like I said before that's just modern production. The days of Images and Words and Dire Straits On Every Street ( audio perfection ) are GONE.

I think you're confusing "Production" with "Mixing" and "Mastering".

The producers can make a great sounding record, but it's the mixers and the one who masters the album that determines precisely how the end product sounds.

It's why I would rather buy a "Remixed" re-release of an older album (especially one that does not sound that great) over a "Remastered" release.

To my knowledge, production is often used (casually) as a synonym for mixing, mastering, and overall sound design as a whole.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Album trailer (more like The Alien trailer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vHB_oiIjXE

Gah boooooooring! I wanted at least a mini-snippet of something new.

I am currently feeling like I always do 3 weeks before release; "WHY WHY couldn't they just decide on a release date 3 weeks ealier?!?!"

lol I don't know what the point of that trailer is. It says nothing we didn't know a month ago when they dropped the Alien, and it only contains music from that single. Is there some fan who missed the Alien and album hype, which has been very visible on social media and other media, but is now just hearing about the album through this discreet YouTube post?

[Sebastián Pratesi]

Something I realised just now:

It's been as long (16+ years) since Octavarium was released, than the time from WDaDU to Octavarium.

In both of these 16-year periods, the band recorded 7 albums, one of them a 2CD set.

Crazy how hard-working and creative these guys are!

[devieira73]

Yes and if you think how much music (in hours/minutes) DT already released in its career... it's more than Rush did, for example.

About the reviews, this brazilian magazine (https://roadiecrew.com/produto/edicao-264/) is already out and has a 9.5/10 review for AVFTTOTW. Personally I think the reviewer is a really good one as I tend to have similar musical opinions as his  . And, in his opinion, it's the best DT album since Octavarium. Just for reference, he's a DT fan, but DT doesn't appeal him very much since Systematic Chaos, he hates The Astonishing and thinks D/T was at least a return to the right path.

[KevShmev]

Yes and if you think how much music (in hours/minutes) DT already released in its career... it's more than Rush did, for example.

About the reviews, this brazilian magazine (https://roadiecrew.com/produto/edicao-264/) is already out and has a 9.5/10 review for AVFTTOTW. Personally I think the reviewer is a really good one as I tend to have similar musical opinions as his  . And, in his opinion, it's the best DT album since Octavarium. Just for reference, he's a DT fan, but DT doesn't appeal him very much since Systematic Chaos, he hates The Astonishing and thinks D/T was at least a return to the right path.

If he hates The Astonishing, his credibility is non-existent.

[darkshade]

It's interesting when you look at Neal Morse's albums, Neal has a much smaller budget that DT (I assume) yet his albums all pretty much sound fantastic, especially anything he's recorded with SB, TA or solo since 1999.

DT's albums are all over the map, and rarely would I say they "sound good", other than IaW, Awake, and FII, which all have great production values.
SDoIT, ToT, and 8vm sound fine to me, especially for the era, but not at the level of the band's aforementioned 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums. No albums since '05 have sounded as good to my ears.

So it has nothing to do with budget as far as I can tell.

[rab7]

he hates The Astonishing and thinks D/T was at least a return to the right path.

Well as someone who loves both The Astonishing and D/T for different reasons, this is very exciting

[devieira73]

  I saw his review of TA and, although I disagree with him, I think he made valid points about the album in his analysis. I like his reviews even when we disagree! By the way, I love a lot of things in TA, but not the double album as whole.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Yes and if you think how much music (in hours/minutes) DT already released in its career... it's more than Rush did, for example.

About the reviews, this brazilian magazine (https://roadiecrew.com/produto/edicao-264/) is already out and has a 9.5/10 review for AVFTTOTW. Personally I think the reviewer is a really good one as I tend to have similar musical opinions as his  . And, in his opinion, it's the best DT album since Octavarium. Just for reference, he's a DT fan, but DT doesn't appeal him very much since Systematic Chaos, he hates The Astonishing and thinks D/T was at least a return to the right path.

Wow. very similar opinions to me too. must know what hes talking about 

[Kram]

It's interesting when you look at Neal Morse's albums, Neal has a much smaller budget that DT (I assume) yet his albums all pretty much sound fantastic, especially anything he's recorded with SB, TA or solo since 1999.

DT's albums are all over the map, and rarely would I say they "sound good", other than IaW, Awake, and FII, which all have great production values.
SDoIT, ToT, and 8vm sound fine to me, especially for the era, but not at the level of the band's aforementioned 2nd, 3rd and 4th albums. No albums since '05 have sounded as good to my ears.

So it has nothing to do with budget as far as I can tell.

Agreed.  Neal's albums always sound amazing.  Maybe it has to do with Rich Mouser, who mixes all of Neal's stuff?

[darkshade]

It would be interesting if Mouser mixed a DT album.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

People still not understanding that production is more than sound and tones. Good producers steer the direction of songs. Good producers arrange instrumentation. Listen to MJ's Thriller, Bad, and Dangerous. All of those horns were all Quincy Jones. That kind of stuff elevated those songs above what they would have been without them. Good producers might arrange vocal sections and backing vocal parts. Strings. All sorts of stuff. For a band like DT, they don't need a producer to do these things. But, the blanket statements about producers not being so important is just false. There are so many albums that could have gone to #1 with the right producer to elevate the songs.

[genome]

Yeah. If you want a great example of what a producer does, watch A Year and a Half in the Life of Metallica.

[Peter Mc]

If you put Awake for example and then go straight to ADTOE or DT12, the downgrade is immediately obvious, at least to my ears.

I've actually did that last week and couldn't stop wondering how that could happen with 25 years worth of experience and new technologies. It really doesn't make any sense.

That’s not just DT though, that’s music in general.  Petrucci himself has even commented on the fact that we constantly push visuals forward like, dvd, blu-ray, 4K and beyond but music has gone the other way with the new technology making things worse.  There’s not much money in albums anymore so people don’t spend a ton of money on making them sound great especially when it’s likely just going to end up as some super compressed version on someone’s phone.  If you listen to 80’s albums in general, they sound way better than modern albums.

This is so wrong that is in the involuntary parody territory, sorry. I can understand the case for dynamic range and macro dynamics, but that's it. The money argument makes zero sense, considering a lot of amazing production technology is rather cheap (even more compared to the analogic equivalents), or literally free; yes, a microphone in the thousands of dollars range is good, but it's useless if the rest of choices are bad.

It's completely dependant of the aesthetic, too. Jazz dudes aren't afraid of incorporating Electronic music (Sungazer, DOMi & JD Beck, and Mark Guiliana are pretty popular in the scene) or Hip-Hop influences (everyone and their mother is playing Dilla beats), for example. While the Rock and Metal dudes throw a tantrum when they see a guitar with 8-strings, or a drummer who can play in time, so, back on topic, it's no surprise the aesthetic had no sonic evolution. And even then, Metal albums do sound clearer and better than they did in the '80s, especially when comparing small acts.

So Petrucci was talking out of his arse then when he said sound quality is going backwards while visual quality is getting better and better?  Not my words, the words of one of the world’s top musicians.  You think that people are spending the same amount of money making albums as they used to?

[BeatriceNB]

If you put Awake for example and then go straight to ADTOE or DT12, the downgrade is immediately obvious, at least to my ears.

I've actually did that last week and couldn't stop wondering how that could happen with 25 years worth of experience and new technologies. It really doesn't make any sense.

That’s not just DT though, that’s music in general.  Petrucci himself has even commented on the fact that we constantly push visuals forward like, dvd, blu-ray, 4K and beyond but music has gone the other way with the new technology making things worse.  There’s not much money in albums anymore so people don’t spend a ton of money on making them sound great especially when it’s likely just going to end up as some super compressed version on someone’s phone.  If you listen to 80’s albums in general, they sound way better than modern albums.

This is so wrong that is in the involuntary parody territory, sorry. I can understand the case for dynamic range and macro dynamics, but that's it. The money argument makes zero sense, considering a lot of amazing production technology is rather cheap (even more compared to the analogic equivalents), or literally free; yes, a microphone in the thousands of dollars range is good, but it's useless if the rest of choices are bad.

It's completely dependant of the aesthetic, too. Jazz dudes aren't afraid of incorporating Electronic music (Sungazer, DOMi & JD Beck, and Mark Guiliana are pretty popular in the scene) or Hip-Hop influences (everyone and their mother is playing Dilla beats), for example. While the Rock and Metal dudes throw a tantrum when they see a guitar with 8-strings, or a drummer who can play in time, so, back on topic, it's no surprise the aesthetic had no sonic evolution. And even then, Metal albums do sound clearer and better than they did in the '80s, especially when comparing small acts.

So Petrucci was talking out of his arse then when he said sound quality is going backwards while visual quality is getting better and better?  Not my words, the words of one of the world’s top musicians.  You think that people are spending the same amount of money making albums as they used to?

Considering how goddamn boomer-y it sounds, I don't care if John Petrucci or Paul McStraty the 5 licks pentatonic player says it. It's not a fair argument because the availability of recording and production technology is totally different to what it was in the '80s or even '90s; I dare to say it would be silly to spend absurd amounts of money to get a similar (or possibly worse) result than a cheaper one.
Latest Iron Maiden sounds worse than the average bedroom Prog project, and Iron Maiden definitely have a big budget, and the album was mixed by the supposedly competent Kevin Shirley.

Music production isn't getting worse in quality; a lot of Pop albums sound IMMENSELY clear and detailed (BTS and Ariana Grande instantly come to mind), even with a loud master; and going for the '80s thing, Carly Rae Jepsen's Emotion and The Weeknd's After Hours sound clearer than many of the albums of the '80s Pop acts.

Thief are a pretty small band, and The 16 Deaths Of My Master has an impressive production.

So yes, I definitely think Petrucci is talking bullshit. It takes no effort to see that sound quality isn't getting "less clear/defined" or worse, and again and again, technology is incredibly accessible, and that's good.

[LKap13]

And by the way, better tech doesn't necessarily mean better anyway. I much prefer the aesthetic of 80's/90's Hollywood to modern cgi-laden stuff

[Bertie_Wooster]

A good example of production ruining a song is the album version of the Dire straits song “brothers in arms”

[bosk1]

People still not understanding that production is more than sound and tones. Good producers steer the direction of songs. Good producers arrange instrumentation. Listen to MJ's Thriller, Bad, and Dangerous. All of those horns were all Quincy Jones. That kind of stuff elevated those songs above what they would have been without them. Good producers might arrange vocal sections and backing vocal parts. Strings. All sorts of stuff. For a band like DT, they don't need a producer to do these things. But, the blanket statements about producers not being so important is just false. There are so many albums that could have gone to #1 with the right producer to elevate the songs.

You are correct that "production" can mean lots of things other than what is being discussed in this thread.  But nomenclature aside, those other things aren't what is being discussed, so I don't see the point in clarifying that the definition of that term encompasses other things.  We aren't discussing those other things.

That said, those whole discussion on production is way off topic and belongs somewhere else. 

[rab7]

People still not understanding that production is more than sound and tones. Good producers steer the direction of songs. Good producers arrange instrumentation. Listen to MJ's Thriller, Bad, and Dangerous. All of those horns were all Quincy Jones. That kind of stuff elevated those songs above what they would have been without them. Good producers might arrange vocal sections and backing vocal parts. Strings. All sorts of stuff. For a band like DT, they don't need a producer to do these things. But, the blanket statements about producers not being so important is just false. There are so many albums that could have gone to #1 with the right producer to elevate the songs.

You are correct that "production" can mean lots of things other than what is being discussed in this thread.  But nomenclature aside, those other things aren't what is being discussed, so I don't see the point in clarifying that the definition of that term encompasses other things.  We aren't discussing those other things.

That said, those whole discussion on production is way off topic and belongs somewhere else.

This thread has been a roller coaster of tangents to other topics over the last 118 pages.

Is it safe to assume there's no 3rd single? I remember Paralyzed came out 2 weeks before D/T. We're 2 weeks away and there's been nothing out in Oceania or Southeast Asia, and next week would just be one week away from album release

[LKap13]

I'll tell you one thing, if there is a single I ain't listening to it