DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[darkshade]

I'm pretty critical of modern DT, but that is because of how good IaW-Octavarium is. Also, because the back half of BC&SL + ADTOE showed promise of a band that could keep that momentum going into their later career, but I have felt like the overall quality took a dip after ADTOE. I'm not a big fan of MM's style of drumming overall, it sounds too stiff.
On ADTOE, I think he does a pretty good job, though, and it's the only MM-era album where I enjoy the whole album.

[Wim Kruithof]

but it's just hard to top that 1992-2002 era when they were on top of their game and wrote (what I consider) most of their best songs.

I follow you here, but I've got a different perspective. I do enjoy those first albums but I wasn't aware of them back then (was Metallica-minded). So I had to dig in many albums in the recent years and that might be why I consider the first albums not as their best. But - as wrote down many times in Lifting Shadows biography - there was a time they struggled as well. Especially Falling Into Infinity has many lows which even doesn't sound like Dream Theater to me. Since Mangini there seems to be more balance, more peace and a brighter role for Rudess to write along.

Therefore I am so much looking forward to the View. Distance Over Time still is getting better each time I hear it and it's been 8 years since the last epic.

[KevShmev]

but it's just hard to top that 1992-2002 era when they were on top of their game and wrote (what I consider) most of their best songs.

I follow you here, but I've got a different perspective. I do enjoy those first albums but I wasn't aware of them back then (was Metallica-minded). So I had to dig in many albums in the recent years and that might be why I consider the first albums not as their best. But - as wrote down many times in Lifting Shadows biography - there was a time they struggled as well. Especially Falling Into Infinity has many lows which even doesn't sound like Dream Theater to me. Since Mangini there seems to be more balance, more peace and a brighter role for Rudess to write along.

Therefore I am so much looking forward to the View. Distance Over Time still is getting better each time I hear it and it's been 8 years since the last epic.

Well, a happier band does not automatically mean better music.  Out of great conflict can come great music, and it seems like most bands in the rock music era release most of their best music early in their careers (when looking at the consensus, not necessarily personal favorites), and DT appears to be no different in that regard. 

As for their struggles early on, that came about because of issues with the record company and having to use outside producers, but I would argue that they were a little better when "forced" to have an outside producer.  Yes, Scenes was self-produced, but the rest of the 90s albums all had an outside producer, and the results and popularity of the songs from that decade speak for themselves. It is easy to point at You Not Me and say, "See, that is what happens when they are forced to have an outside producer," but that is the exception, not the rule.  When you consider how bloated a lot of their arrangements got in the 00s and then think about how an outside producer broke up the original Burning My Soul resulting in a killer instrumental like Hell's Kitchen, you can't help but wonder if there were other gems that never came to fruition over the years because they are left to their own devices and there is no outside voice to push back and get them to think outside the box a little.

[Kotowboy]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

[Glasser]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

How about “taking the time” to write full words and sentences out? That would be easier than trying to decode everything. Seriously.

[Max Kuehnau]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

How about “taking the time” to write full words and sentences out? That would be easier than trying to decode everything. Seriously.

Which I mostly do anyway, and I will for this album as well, I might shorten the title track though.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

This forum’s collective obsession with acronyms will be our downfall.

[TAC]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

How about “taking the time” to write full words and sentences out? That would be easier than trying to decode everything. Seriously.

You know what you need...?

[Glasser]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

How about “taking the time” to write full words and sentences out? That would be easier than trying to decode everything. Seriously.

You know what you need...?

Don’t forget to drink your Ovaltine.

[Kotowboy]

Hey you like Dream Theater ? What's your top 3 Dream Theater songs ?

1. TA
2. TA
3. TA

Least fave :

1. SS
2. SS
3. SDV
4. SDV

[darkshade]

Just realised that The Alien will get abbreviated to TA and when ever anyone says TA in future - everyone will be like The Answer ? The Astonishing ? The Alien ?

Transatlantic?

[Kotowboy]

  Great Scott ! Madness wil ensue !

[darkshade]

Tim Allen?

[dparrott]

Alien is only three more letters than TA.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Tim Allen?

Tim Alien

[gzarruk]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

[erwinrafael]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

Do reviews still matter anymore in terms of driving sales?

[Wim Kruithof]

you can't help but wonder if there were other gems that never came to fruition over the years because they are left to their own devices and there is no outside voice to push back and get them to think outside the box a little.

Funny, but my point of view is the other way arround. The outside producers didn't invite them to think outside the box, they seem to have forced them inside the box. The filthy box of 'radio airplay' where songs have to be easy build up, easy to listen to and easy in lyrics- and chords structure. So the mean-stream can sing along while driving their cars, windows open. I still think it's too bad they split up that track and made Hell's Kitchen on his own (although it's beautiful).

And it's a shame also that a Change of Seasons wasn't allowed as double jewelcase together with Images & Words, which was the original idea.

[jayvee3]

but it's just hard to top that 1992-2002 era when they were on top of their game and wrote (what I consider) most of their best songs.

I follow you here, but I've got a different perspective. I do enjoy those first albums but I wasn't aware of them back then (was Metallica-minded). So I had to dig in many albums in the recent years and that might be why I consider the first albums not as their best. But - as wrote down many times in Lifting Shadows biography - there was a time they struggled as well. Especially Falling Into Infinity has many lows which even doesn't sound like Dream Theater to me. Since Mangini there seems to be more balance, more peace and a brighter role for Rudess to write along.

Therefore I am so much looking forward to the View. Distance Over Time still is getting better each time I hear it and it's been 8 years since the last epic.

Well, a happier band does not automatically mean better music.  Out of great conflict can come great music, and it seems like most bands in the rock music era release most of their best music early in their careers (when looking at the consensus, not necessarily personal favorites), and DT appears to be no different in that regard. 

As for their struggles early on, that came about because of issues with the record company and having to use outside producers, but I would argue that they were a little better when "forced" to have an outside producer.  Yes, Scenes was self-produced, but the rest of the 90s albums all had an outside producer, and the results and popularity of the songs from that decade speak for themselves. It is easy to point at You Not Me and say, "See, that is what happens when they are forced to have an outside producer," but that is the exception, not the rule.  When you consider how bloated a lot of their arrangements got in the 00s and then think about how an outside producer broke up the original Burning My Soul resulting in a killer instrumental like Hell's Kitchen, you can't help but wonder if there were other gems that never came to fruition over the years because they are left to their own devices and there is no outside voice to push back and get them to think outside the box a little.

It’s a tough one, because one drawback from outside producers, is that many do tend to think in commercial terms - which is not always a great canvas for musical expression when talking progressive music…

Using FII as the example, for every stroke of genius that an outside producer may add (such as you mention, the breaking up of Burning my Soul, resulting in the brilliant, stand-alone Hells Kitchen), you have another decision on You not me, which is far inferior to the You or Me version even in demo form. The keyboard solo after the second chorus in You or Me fits in to the whole feel of the other songs in the album, and is just a more cohesive and superior song - which on the whole appears mostly agreed on.

If that song was changed, they added the brilliant Budokan solo and outro in Hollow Years (I know Budokan was after FII but still), you could have actually just cut Burning my Soul and had an all round awesome album from start to finish. But the producers didn’t make those decisions either. So I think they had a bit of a mixed bag with some of their decisions. So I guess the question is: if there are going to be some decisions made good and some not so good, would that be any different with the band making the decisions or an outside producer doing it? I think you might get a bit of a mixed bag either way…

[nikatapi]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

If you consider that some outlets (like us in Greece) have been getting the answer that the promo will be available on 15/10 (   ), you may understand why there's no reviews out.
Really weird approach from Inside Out, given that we got promos for other releases way earlier.

[Pettor]

Things like good or bad music of a band is just too complex, specially with a band like DT imo. For a band like Pink Floyd it's easy to say after The Wall they lost it and the Roger vs Gilmour fights was important to their sound. After The Wall it's clear they don't have as much legendary material as the 70s.

DT on the other hand, you wont be seeing Awake or FII on the list of most streamed songs anyway. Does that mean better songs, nah not really, but I just want to remind that there's A LOT of fans coming from the DT sound after the 90s era. I fell in love with the sound of TOT where there's def an overload of notes, shredding etc. I want part of that crazy sound meanwhile I do love some of the more restrictive stuff from I&W and Awake. No matter if FII is an album you enjoy or not (I don't) I think we can all agree it wasn't good for DT and it would be like shooting yourself in the foot by doing something similar. It's not a favourite amongst fans (some songs are highly regarded however) and the band hated it so that's def going to far.

Outside producer is so hard because sometimes it is interesting to imagine what would happen to albums like BC&SL and TA with an outside producer. Would they been trimmed and fixed? Both have huge potential in them but also overdo a lot of stuff or in BC&SL case; don't polish them enough. But then maybe the song 8V would be different, maybe TOT would be restricted, maybe (oh Lord no!) Scenes and SDOIT would be restricted. Then hell no, never!

For me it feels like DT has a good idea of what they are doing when I hear them in interviews. They restrain themselves from time to time but also unleash themselves. I specially have extra confidence that they found something important with D/T as well.

[Wim Kruithof]

Things like good or bad music of a band is just too complex, specially with a band like DT imo. For a band like Pink Floyd it's easy to say after The Wall they lost it and the Roger vs Gilmour fights was important to their sound. After The Wall it's clear they don't have as much legendary material as the 70s.

And even then it remains subjective. I love the Wall and the Final Cut as a concept album... but as I am a fan of both a Momentary Lapse of Reason and the Division Bell... there's almost nothing to enjoy on a Piper at the Gates of Dawn and a Saucerful of Secrets for me. But not much on Ummagumma of More eather. Gilmour - to me - is doing a way better job on song- and lyricswriting than the drug addict Barrett did. And although Waters is very talented, he is also traumatized and can't look past war and government-issues. So his music has also a kind of simplicity and feels a bit poor, empty, every now and then.

[Pettor]

Things like good or bad music of a band is just too complex, specially with a band like DT imo. For a band like Pink Floyd it's easy to say after The Wall they lost it and the Roger vs Gilmour fights was important to their sound. After The Wall it's clear they don't have as much legendary material as the 70s.

And even then it remains subjective. I love the Wall and the Final Cut as a concept album... but as I am a fan of both a Momentary Lapse of Reason and the Division Bell... there's almost nothing to enjoy on a Piper at the Gates of Dawn and a Saucerful of Secrets for me. But not much on Ummagumma of More eather. Gilmour - to me - is doing a way better job on song- and lyricswriting than the drug addict Barrett did. And although Waters is very talented, he is also traumatized and can't look past war and government-issues. So his music has also a kind of simplicity and feels a bit poor, empty, every now and then.

Absolutely! Division Bell is great and most material after The Wall is, but in a different way. Pink Floyd continuing after Waters is a good thing imo adding a lot of good material for the fans, it will however always be seen as lesser to the 70s era. Actually PF is nearly at that level where you only heard the 70era material and still get away with saying something like "I am a huge fan and love all their material" 😁

[Renzo]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

https://metalitalia.com/articolo/dream-theater-il-nuovo-album-a-view-from-the-top-of-the-world-traccia-per-traccia/
Here's an Italian Track-by-track review

[erciccio]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

https://metalitalia.com/articolo/dream-theater-il-nuovo-album-a-view-from-the-top-of-the-world-traccia-per-traccia/
Here's an Italian Track-by-track review

Interesting review, even though it's written in a weird and baroque style..sometimes it's really hard to understand what the guy is trying to say about the songs.
There are also some mistakes (he states that Petrucci uses an 8 string in Sleeping Giant).

The guy clearly is not a huge DT fan, he belongs to the "critical party".

Notwithstanding that here is what I got:

 - The Alien: he didn't like it so much
 - ATC: more melodic, nice instrumental parts, not so enthusiastic about JLB, but he likes it overall
 - IM: dark and straightforward, he doesn't like it too much
 - SG: initially dark, then very varied, a nice instrumental section...the guy likes it
 - TT: the most "pop-pish" in the CD, "hollywood"-style, but nice overall
 - ATM: the most experimental and contemporary, very powerful...the guy likes it a lot
  - AVFTTOTW: he likes it. "Ambient" intro, a lot of orchestrations, an acoustic middle section, a dark and powerful finale.

[Wim Kruithof]

Pettor, true for sure. I am a huge fan of Pink Floyd but not all their material. Only the six or seven most recent studioalbum they've made.

[Kotowboy]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

https://metalitalia.com/articolo/dream-theater-il-nuovo-album-a-view-from-the-top-of-the-world-traccia-per-traccia/
Here's an Italian Track-by-track review

Interesting review, even though it's written in a weird and baroque style..sometimes it's really hard to understand what the guy is trying to say about the songs.
There are also some mistakes (he states that Petrucci uses an 8 string in Sleeping Giant).

The guy clearly is not a huge DT fan, he belongs to the "critical party".

Notwithstanding that here is what I got:

 - The Alien: he didn't like it so much
 - ATC: more melodic, nice instrumental parts, not so enthusiastic about JLB, but he likes it overall
 - IM: dark and straightforward, he doesn't like it too much
 - SG: initially dark, then very varied, a nice instrumental section...the guy likes it
 - TT: the most "pop-pish" in the CD, "hollywood"-style, but nice overall
 - ATM: the most experimental and contemporary, very powerful...the guy likes it a lot
  - AVFTTOTW: he likes it. "Ambient" intro, a lot of orchestrations, an acoustic middle section, a dark and powerful finale.

[CirclesSquared]

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

https://metalitalia.com/articolo/dream-theater-il-nuovo-album-a-view-from-the-top-of-the-world-traccia-per-traccia/
Here's an Italian Track-by-track review

Interesting review, even though it's written in a weird and baroque style..sometimes it's really hard to understand what the guy is trying to say about the songs.
There are also some mistakes (he states that Petrucci uses an 8 string in Sleeping Giant).

The guy clearly is not a huge DT fan, he belongs to the "critical party".

Notwithstanding that here is what I got:

 - The Alien: he didn't like it so much
 - ATC: more melodic, nice instrumental parts, not so enthusiastic about JLB, but he likes it overall
 - IM: dark and straightforward, he doesn't like it too much
 - SG: initially dark, then very varied, a nice instrumental section...the guy likes it
 - TT: the most "pop-pish" in the CD, "hollywood"-style, but nice overall
 - ATM: the most experimental and contemporary, very powerful...the guy likes it a lot
  - AVFTTOTW: he likes it. "Ambient" intro, a lot of orchestrations, an acoustic middle section, a dark and powerful finale.

"It insists upon itself."

[gzarruk]

If that song was changed, they added the brilliant Budokan solo and outro in Hollow Years (I know Budokan was after FII but still), you could have actually just cut Burning my Soul and had an all round awesome album from start to finish. But the producers didn’t make those decisions either. So I think they had a bit of a mixed bag with some of their decisions. So I guess the question is: if there are going to be some decisions made good and some not so good, would that be any different with the band making the decisions or an outside producer doing it? I think you might get a bit of a mixed bag either way…

Well, this is a trick one. I read (it was either an interview or some fragment from Lifting Shadows) that John first did a completely different take on the Hollow Years solo, a much more complex acustic guitar approach to what we got, and Kevin Shirley LOVED IT. Then John came in the next day saying he wanted to do something else (the one that ended up being used on the album) and they had to delete the previous take since they were doing analog recordings back then. Kevin Shirley said he was really sad about this, but he understood he was making THEIR record, not his, so ended up doing what JP wanted, so it's not like the band had 0 input on the stuff that ended up being released.

No matter if FII is an album you enjoy or not (I don't) I think we can all agree it wasn't good for DT and it would be like shooting yourself in the foot by doing something similar. It's not a favourite amongst fans (some songs are highly regarded however) and the band hated it so that's def going to far.

"The band hated it". "The band" = MP. I'm not saying FII is a masterpiece or anything like that, I always rank it in the bottom 3 of DT albums, but it's kind of a fact that the only member that really hated the album was MP, and he was very vocal about it (as he is with most stuff anyway ). There was a recent (2014-ish) interview with JP where he said that they didn't hate the album and that they made the album they wanted to make (obviously MP would disagree ).

[gzarruk]

Do reviews still matter anymore in terms of driving sales?

Don't know about that, but they matter to me, since some reviewers usually give some details/spoilers about the songs, and I'm really interested in those things

If you consider that some outlets (like us in Greece) have been getting the answer that the promo will be available on 15/10 (   ), you may understand why there's no reviews out.
Really weird approach from Inside Out, given that we got promos for other releases way earlier.

Promo copies a week before the album release? They sure want you guys to digest the album well and not publish rushed reviews.

Less than 3 weeks for album release day and still no reviews online

https://metalitalia.com/articolo/dream-theater-il-nuovo-album-a-view-from-the-top-of-the-world-traccia-per-traccia/
Here's an Italian Track-by-track review

Interesting review, even though it's written in a weird and baroque style..sometimes it's really hard to understand what the guy is trying to say about the songs.
There are also some mistakes (he states that Petrucci uses an 8 string in Sleeping Giant).

The guy clearly is not a huge DT fan, he belongs to the "critical party".

Notwithstanding that here is what I got:

 - The Alien: he didn't like it so much
 - ATC: more melodic, nice instrumental parts, not so enthusiastic about JLB, but he likes it overall
 - IM: dark and straightforward, he doesn't like it too much
 - SG: initially dark, then very varied, a nice instrumental section...the guy likes it
 - TT: the most "pop-pish" in the CD, "hollywood"-style, but nice overall
 - ATM: the most experimental and contemporary, very powerful...the guy likes it a lot
  - AVFTTOTW: he likes it. "Ambient" intro, a lot of orchestrations, an acoustic middle section, a dark and powerful finale.

Nice find! Though that review didn't say anything too useful

[nikatapi]

If you consider that some outlets (like us in Greece) have been getting the answer that the promo will be available on 15/10 (   ), you may understand why there's no reviews out.
Really weird approach from Inside Out, given that we got promos for other releases way earlier.

Promo copies a week before the album release? They sure want you guys to digest the album well and not publish rushed reviews.

I honestly don't understand this approach, LTE we got about a month in advance or even earlier 

[Renzo]

Nice find! Though that review didn't say anything too useful

Yeah, the Track-by-track review they did for D/T was more explicative than this one. I don't usually visit that platform, as they usually tend to over-hype even the least important Instagram post from the members of DT.. 

[Pettor]

No matter if FII is an album you enjoy or not (I don't) I think we can all agree it wasn't good for DT and it would be like shooting yourself in the foot by doing something similar. It's not a favourite amongst fans (some songs are highly regarded however) and the band hated it so that's def going to far.

"The band hated it". "The band" = MP. I'm not saying FII is a masterpiece or anything like that, I always rank it in the bottom 3 of DT albums, but it's kind of a fact that the only member that really hated the album was MP, and he was very vocal about it (as he is with most stuff anyway ). There was a recent (2014-ish) interview with JP where he said that they didn't hate the album and that they made the album they wanted to make (obviously MP would disagree ).

Fair enough! Didn't know that. I have the book about DT, can't remember the author, and the whole FII chapter left me with the impression that the band felt disappointed about FII as a whole. Problem is ofc MP involvement in the book so could be that it's his view portrayed as whole band or my memory. I know ofc MP was loudest about it and even felt the need to quit because of it. Need to read that chapter a bit again to see I guess.

FII is really not that strange as part of their discography. It's not like WDADU that feels way to different to the other albums but more like a natural progression after the dark Awake. However listening to cleaning out the closet it's a bit sad what could have been with FII as well.

[SeRoX]

Third Single Snippet

[Architeuthis]