DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[nikatapi]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

[evilasiojr]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

He says in the same post that his inspiration is in the shapes and FEELS, that's how he plays and teaches. He feels it first, the technical stuff comes as a result, not the other way around by what he says.

[MirrorMask]

See it this way:

Some people enjoy seeing the northern lights.

Other people are very interested in the actual way they appear and they'd go on and on talking about the solar rays and why the atmospjhere reacts like that and so on.

Mangini is the one that talks you at length about how and why the auroras appear in the sky, that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy the visual spectacle, or that he can't take a good picture of the northern lights because he's too concentrated on the scientific explanation behind it.

(Wacky example, I know)

[Kotowboy]

Yes he *feels* the time signature as all drummers should - I don't think most drummers count whilst playing live - but he doesn't talk about the mood or emotion of a song hardly ever. If at all.

[DoctorAction]

Oh my god who cares.

I think this is dismissive and disrespectful, tbh, given it's a member of the band enthusiastically describing the new material.

[Stadler]

*snip*

Carrying on with this will probably leave me infuriated (since the main point seems to be getting lost in favour of a long-winded back and forth on a needlessly expanding list of tangents), so I'll just leave it and won't speak any more on the topic. It's taking up too much of the thread as is.

It's pretty simple; for all the dismissal here and the sarcasm in the Mangini thread, it comes down to this:

Mike Mangini:  "I like what I like - and like this one. Who knows what the lot will think of it."
Stadler:  "I actually trust my ears, and like what I like..."  (in one of the posts to which some of the sarcasm is pointed)

We are, literally and in context, saying exactly the same thing.

[Stadler]

So, in a half-arsed attempt at removing some heat and moving the conversation on: I've decided I won't listen to any of the advance tracks this time. Anyone else doing the same?

I'm going to listen to them as much as I can

I totally understand that

I usually listen to them but I think I've become a bit disappointed in recent times at just how much of an album can be heard before release. Of course, it's a conscious decision over whether to listen or not but there is something nice about hearing a body of work in its entirety for the first time without having previously heard a single note.

I actively avoid the advance tracks.  I've found over something like 40 years of listening that I RARELY have the same reaction to the advance that I do for the album proper, and the response to the album proper is 99 times out of 100 way more positive than the advance.   So it brings nothing to the table for me.   

[darkshade]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

At this very moment on stage we have drummer A playing in 7/8,
drummer B playing in 3/4,
the bass playing in 3/4,
the organ playing in 5/8,
the tambourine playing in 3/4,
and the alto sax blowing his nose

[darkshade]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

[nikatapi]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

In general it sounds great to me, but of course anyone can enjoy things differently.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Those that are taking his zoom classes or were his students care.

This is how he explains his drum parts. Most drummers do not talk technical, but Mangini does. This is, I feel, related to him being a college professor. He actually explains how he, himself, came up with the idea for that drum part. Most do not and just say, "It was the feeling the song called for."

Just because you can't understand the gibberish and need to be explained in simple terms like feel, doesn't mean nobody else cares.

[devieira73]

Totally this. I think we should keep in mind that a lot of his followers in the social media are drummers and his students, hence those super technical comments.

[Ben_Jamin]

Totally this. I think we should keep in mind that a lot of his followers in the social media are drummers and his students, hence those super technical comments.

Plus he even mentions that this will be discussed and taught along with an analysis of the released song, in a future zoom class.

It's almost as if he was giving us a promo and hyping up his Zoom Classes, by telling us the types of discussions he has with his zoom classes.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Thing with Mike is that this stuff comes out naturally for him. It's mindblowing really. But it's not like he targets to play over complicated stuff, his natural feel is gravitating towards this. Something he is excited about and explaining in a more technical way is the way he communicates.

Take Illumination Theory for example. There's a part where he plays the melody of the riff on the toms while he's playing a rhythm at the same time. If explained technically, it will sound like it's all about the polyrhythm and technique. But it's not, it's just the way he interprets his parts and how they work in the context of a song.

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

To you maybe. But to me, it does sound good and actually I enjoy his drumming parts more so than MP, because of him playing along to different instruments and rhythms. It's a really different style than usual for drumming. And I like it and enjoy it. It compliments the music.

[CDrice]

I think we should keep in mind that a lot of his followers in the social media are drummers and his students

And fans of Dream Theater, a band that has one of their signature piece known for having over 100 time signature changes.

[Stadler]

I've long said that while both are great drummers, Portnoy has a knack for making something in 3.1415/√3 time sound like a 4/4 shuffle, and Mangini has a knack for making something in 4/4 time sound like 0.33333/∞, but that's his thing.  It's cool.   I do like his passion and curiosity, though, and while I'm not a drummer, I do find it interesting.  Words are hard, though, and don't do it justice.  It'll be interesting to hear and then compare to the words.

[Kotowboy]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

[CDrice]

Well, I don't care about complexity to the extent that as long as it sounds good to me that's what matters. It can be simple and sound good, just like something complex can sound good.

With that said, I'm also a musician and I do enjoy reading about more advanced and complex stuff even if I don't always get it, because sometimes I manage to pick up something where I'm like "Oh, I never thought of doing something like this. Let me see if I can make something cool out of it."

But I can see how that might not be everyone's cup of tea.

[Raise the Drum]

so, no single today?

[Dream Team]

OK, so maybe Mike says "this song grooves, it makes me feel good". Now what? He can't go on to explain some of the work he put into it? I probably makes him very happy to pull the stuff off live.

[geeeemo]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

I think, just like the earlier " off the rails discussion", it's a matter of what one likes. If I go to a restaurant and have the most best whatever that I have eaten, I would love for the chef to come explain to me in all the detail how he did it, so maybe I could try it at home. This is Mike's style of communicating. I don't drum, but I find it interesting and endearing.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

That's great you do not care about that as a drummer. But Mangini doesn't think like you or any other drummers. His mindset is not the same as most drummer. For one, he is heavily interested in numbers, and anything to do with numbers which is related to math. Mangini utilizes number patterns and mathematics to have fun with the music. He plays a simple beat and realizes that it's in this time sig and that you could do this pattern. All we have to look at to know this is the song Room 137, being his song lyrics, in the tempo of 137, and how this related to the man who was obsessed to death with that number, almost like how obsessed Mangini is with numbers. Could be why he chose to write lyrics about him. 

And also, that waiter could say "it tastes badass" then you get it, eat it and say "That waiter was wrong. It doesn't taste badass. It tastes like shit." 

[Peter Mc]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

Yes but if you’re a chef, following another renowned chef on social media then, chances are, you would be interested in how he makes the dish he is describing.  Just as most of Mangini’s drum geeks are probably interested in what he’s doing rhythmically on his new record.  It’s no different when JP talks about what gear he’s using.  All his guitar geeks are super interested whereas I couldn’t care less so I just skip to the bit where he talks about the album.  Same with Mangini and his drumming talk, it’s there for his fellow drummers (which likely makes up most of his following) and I can just skip through it to get to the part I’m interested in.

[Trav86]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

Not everyone is like you.

[ReaPsTA]

It's too fast to pick up the slight anomaly of being 3:2 of 7 that fits over 4 of the main 7 notes with 3 of the real 7/16 notes left for the end of the fill.

Oh my god who cares.  This is literally my only problem with mangini. He never once has talked about how a song FEELS. It's always about the polyrhythms and time signatures.

Literally the next thing he says:

But I can teach it by SHAPE and Feel without calculating it- that's how I came up with it. Shape and Feel. I'm glad I gained the knowledge and pattern recognition to know what it is though so I can explain it.

I think Mangini can over-fixate on precision too but come on now

[jayvee3]

Not any type of musician in the slightest, yet I love how MM comes across with this type of description. Eloquent, intelligent and passionate and it’s a bit like listening to the Daily Doug when reacting to anything DT - you almost get a newfound appreciation for the technicality in something that we tend to take for granted.

And not to turn this at all into a MM vs MP thread as it’s been done to death, but I love the feel and precision on MM’s drumming considerably more. I’ve always felt that he could almost play any of MP’s parts blindfolded, whereas I don’t think MP could play MM’s parts nearly as precise. I just prefer MM’s drumming and even though I don’t understand it, love the passion and technicality in his observations 

[jayvee3]

Double post

[TAC]

I've long said that while both are great drummers, Portnoy has a knack for making something in 3.1415/√3 time sound like a 4/4 shuffle, and Mangini has a knack for making something in 4/4 time sound like 0.33333/∞,

Totally. Great analogy.

[Dedalus]

I'm a drummer and i've done a music / theory degree and I don't care about time signatures and polyrhythms. I care about the music and production and to a lesser extent the lyrics.

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each

piece of the meal was cooked for and at what exact temperature and why. You'd be like great - how does it taste ?

I know this is going to come as a shock, but here it goes... there are other people in the world.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

If you went out for a meal - you wouldn't want the waiter telling you EXACTLY how the chef made it - and how many grams of each spice and seasoning he used and how long each(…)

You might if you were also a chef who has a passion for cooking and was interested in knowing.

Mangini is literally a drum professor. Of course he’s going to try to educate his followers on what he’s doing technically. The snobby “I don’t care about polyrhythms and time signatures, I just care about feel” trope is annoying enough from non DT fans.

[Dedalus]

Mangini has become the best example for me for the old saying "you can play the most complicated music ever conceived, but will it sound good?"

These are subjective questions, after all we like what we like. 

I absolutely hate Animals as Leaders, but I like DT. AAL sounds to me just like meaningless complicated music. DT no.

What sounds a bit silly to me is the subtext that technical, complex, complicated issues are irrelevant now.
It wasn't when they released things like The Dance of Eternity.

[Dedalus]

EDIT: I somehow fixed my shit. This comment can be deleted. 

[Lax]

This drum talk is kind of a deal with it situation
I just giggle because MM is criticised for being anal about time signature and technicity...but what are the other members doing ?
Isn't rudess dumping thousand notes a minute ? Isn't myung playing the same thing as the guitar and not like an usual bassist ? Isn't JP the shredlord that can play the coldest fast tremolo picking solo ?
I think we are used to detect feeling in their playing even tho they are shredders.

[GasparXR]

This drum talk is kind of a deal with it situation
I just giggle because MM is criticised for being anal about time signature and technicity...but what are the other members doing ?
Isn't rudess dumping thousand notes a minute ? Isn't myung playing the same thing as the guitar and not like an usual bassist ? Isn't JP the shredlord that can play the coldest fast tremolo picking solo ?
I think we are used to detect feeling in their playing even tho they are shredders.

All the members of DT 100% have feel in their playing. Fast/technical and emotional are not mutually exclusive, and being able to do both, even at the same time is a mark of a truly great musician. That's literally why they are my favourite band.

[lucasembarbosa]

This drum talk is kind of a deal with it situation
I just giggle because MM is criticised for being anal about time signature and technicity...but what are the other members doing ?
Isn't rudess dumping thousand notes a minute ? Isn't myung playing the same thing as the guitar and not like an usual bassist ? Isn't JP the shredlord that can play the coldest fast tremolo picking solo ?
I think we are used to detect feeling in their playing even tho they are shredders.

Whahíbrido Pickingant enters the chat