DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[LKap13]

No I see we align well

[illusionist]

So kyo's review is about as exciting as it can get. I wonder if DoT got any similar reviews, I doubt it.

I know quite a few people who saw DoT as a "return to form" and among their best in a long time. Not being an Astonishing hater, I didn't see it that way at all.

I think my own DoT review was something along the lines of "on the one hand, it's an album with no duds where even the obligatory radio single and ballad don't overstay their welcome, and At Wit's End is among the best things they have done. On the other hand, it's hard to see many of these songs becoming future live classics. A solid album, but also a strangely complacent and unambitious work."

So Kyo,you think DT15 is ambitious as opposed to DoT?

[TAC]

I love the first 3 songs on Awake but then I just lose interest after that.

Weird. I usually started my Awake at Track 4, though I do love Innocence Faded.

[Kyo]

So Kyo,you think DT15 is ambitious as opposed to DoT?

Yes. Of course to some degree that impression might just be a side effect of things having been more successful rather than having been more ambitious in the first place. But with the more elaborate song structures and the more interesting soundscapes (especially keyboard-wise), it does seem that the band made a conscious effort to raise the bar this time around. DoT, in comparison, has a feel of "This song feels complete. It could just end here. Alright, NEXT!", with not a whole lot of musical ideas getting really developed all that much. This is also true of the drum parts, which often seemed quite basic. In comparison, View has the feel of Mangini constantly just going for it and trying to push what can be done with a section, both with the drum parts themselves and with the rhythms that serve as the basis for a section, with several cases of very deliberate attempts to get more out of the common "chugga chugga plus some keyboard chords" verse rhythmically - and also harmonically, btw. The band explicitly mentioned this in the recent interview. So both on a macro and on a micro level, it feels like more thought was put into this very deliberately, which I would ascribe to a higher ambition level.

[KevShmev]

Kyo,

With all due respect, the minute you said, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," in your review, you lost me.  It would be like David Gilmour releasing a new album and a reviewer saying at the start, "This might be the best album he has been a part of since The Dark Side of the Moon!"  Throwing out stuff like that simply puts unrealistic expectations in the heads of those who have not heard the album yet.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel there are ways to write a glowingly positive review without feeling the need for that kind of hyperbole.

It's a personal view and it's certainly not hyperbole from my point of view. Everyone's top albums will be different. For me, Awake has always been mostly weak and FII has been very uneven. That leaves SfaM and Six Degrees as the main towering classics from the post-I&W years. I don't think any of the later Portnoy albums are great. My personal top 5 would probably be I&W, SfaM, 6DOIT, ADToE and (yes!) The Astonishing. Compared to these, the new album is significantly more focused and more fun than TA. It is significantly fresher and better sounding than ADToE. It is significantly more focused than 6DOIT and while it's a close call with SfaM, I prefer the new one because - again - it is more focused (musically, where SfaM sometimes sacrifices that for conceptual reasons) and the lack of sappy ballads makes it more fun overall. So no hyperbole at all needed to say that yes, I do like this album better than my personal favorites, with I&W being the lone exception (an album that I consider damn near perfect and almost impossible to top anyway). Hence, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words" is ultimately just a matter-of-fact realization from my point of view. You may not agree, but you may also completely disagree with me about Awake or ToT being weak albums where the new one being better in my opinion is just not much of a feat. That's just how it goes.

Let me explain it a little better: it is not about any one person's of their work; it is about knowing the favorites of the fanbase and keeping expectations realistic.  To know the DT fan base is to know that (post-I&W) a record like Scenes from a Memory is wildly popular, and Awake and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are widely loved as well.  So, again, saying, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," is setting a lot of fans up for disappointment if your opinion is not shared by them right away, and like it or not, expectations do often subconsciously affect how fans react to new music.  That is all I am saying. 

Kyo,

With all due respect, the minute you said, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," in your review, you lost me.  It would be like David Gilmour releasing a new album and a reviewer saying at the start, "This might be the best album he has been a part of since The Dark Side of the Moon!"  Throwing out stuff like that simply puts unrealistic expectations in the heads of those who have not heard the album yet.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel there are ways to write a glowingly positive review without feeling the need for that kind of hyperbole.

I don't think he is being hyperbolic. As we discussed on another thread, and has he just pointed out, he (and many others) finds both Awake and FII to be inconsistent and sorta meh (as do I). He doesn't think that SFAM or SDOIT are untouchable, and neither do I. So it's entirely realistic that he and many other fans could think DT15 is the best album since I&W. I think ADTOE is a better and more consistent than SDOIT and maybe even SFAM. I also enjoy DoT more than those two...so why can't DT15 be like that too?

Of course it can, but as I explained above, this is not about what album I like or you like or anybody likes.  It is about knowing the fanbase and not setting unrealistic expectations.  The fanbase, generally speaking, thinks very highly as a whole of Awake, Scenes from a Memory and Six Degrees (which I demonstrated quite clearly the other day), so saying the new album is better than all three is setting a very high bar and setting fans up for disappointment if it fails to reach that bar.

[LKap13]

Are you implying that no record can surpass sfam and sdoit etc? In order words, you're saying that there is no record for which it's acceptable to say "this is the best since I and w"? I'm making a purely logical point here

[TAC]

They've made about 6 or 7 albums better than 6 D's.

[KevShmev]

Are you implying that no record can surpass sfam and sdoit etc? In order words, you're saying that there is no record for which it's acceptable to say "this is the best since I and w"? I'm making a purely logical point here

No, and I said that nothing that would indicate that, so get out of here with that.

I am not sure how any more clear I make this: IT IS ABOUT KEEPING EXPECTATIONS REALISTIC.

[Obsidian Pancake]

I am counting down the days until the release! My family has been subject to a constant barrage of "The Alien" and "Invisible Monster" for what they must feel is an eternity. I can't wait for more material to abuse them.

I'm a sucker for 3:5 and 3:7 polyrhythms so when they hit that section during the intro part of "The Alien" I go bonkers.
"Invisible Monsters" is short but sweet and packed with juicy goodness. The section right after the solo that finishes the first chorus tickles my ear.
Do we know what tuning Petrucci uses on the 8-string? I need to have a reference point of how miserable my Squier Strat will sound through my Spider when I give it the ol' college try.

Thank goodness (Or maybe thank Sneap?) they got the snare sound sorted out. I think I've only just recovered from the sonic abuse I received from the snare on Dream Theater. And this is coming from someone who never had a problem with that beautiful ringing sound on the 2 and 4 of everybody's favorite Metallica album!

Come on 10/22!
 

[Glasser]

Are you implying that no record can surpass sfam and sdoit etc? In order words, you're saying that there is no record for which it's acceptable to say "this is the best since I and w"? I'm making a purely logical point here

No, and I said that nothing that would indicate that, so get out of here with that.

I am not sure how any more clear I make this: IT IS ABOUT KEEPING EXPECTATIONS REALISTIC.

This entire conversation is subject to opinion, obviously. If you want my personal opinion about their entire career let me know. Keep in mind I have been a fan before WDADU was even released. My perspective would be different from a lot of fans here.

[lovethedrake]

A friend told me to watch the show “Fleabag” because it’s a Masterpiece.  That pretty much ended any chance I had of liking the show.

Expectations are everything so I understand the concern with saying “best since I&W”.   

However,  if he really believes that I don’t think he needs to lie and say otherwise.  Just make it clear it’s an opinion.

I would be absolutely shocked if DT ever made an album as good as the big 3 (I&w, sfam, Sdoit).  Labrie alone is enough to make that nearly impossible as he’s far more limited.  Plus they won’t ever drop the more modern metal vibe entirely so that’s another obstacle.

I have DOT at #5 though just behind Awake. I would be thrilled if the new one tops that.

Disclaimer that all the above commentary is just my opinion.

[KevShmev]

Are you implying that no record can surpass sfam and sdoit etc? In order words, you're saying that there is no record for which it's acceptable to say "this is the best since I and w"? I'm making a purely logical point here

No, and I said that nothing that would indicate that, so get out of here with that.

I am not sure how any more clear I make this: IT IS ABOUT KEEPING EXPECTATIONS REALISTIC.

This entire conversation is subject to opinion, obviously. If you want my personal opinion about their entire career let me know. Keep in mind I have been a fan before WDADU was even released. My perspective would be different from a lot of fans here.

Sure, have at it , but keep in mind that my main point has nothing to do with one person's opinion. 

[KevShmev]

A friend told me to watch the show “Fleabag” because it’s a Masterpiece.  That pretty much ended any chance I had of liking the show.

Expectations are everything so I understand the concern with saying “best since I&W”. 

However,  if he really believes that I don’t think he needs to lie and say otherwise.  Just make it clear it’s an opinion.

I would be absolutely shocked if DT ever made an album as good as the big 3 (I&w, sfam, Sdoit).  Labrie alone is enough to make that nearly impossible as he’s far more limited.  Plus they won’t ever drop the more modern metal vibe entirely so that’s another obstacle.

I have DOT at #5 though just behind Awake. I would be thrilled if the new one tops that.

Disclaimer that all the above commentary is just my opinion.

Woohoo, glad to see that somebody gets it. 

[LKap13]

My only point was this - what if the new album REALLY IS the best one since i&w? Hope you understand this point from logic

[bosk1]

Yeah, I get what Kev is saying as well and think it makes sense.  If you make a claim that bold, a lot are going to dismiss it out of hand, and it can actually hurt opinions going into the album in some cases.

I have DOT at #5 though just behind Awake. I would be thrilled if the new one tops that.

Even though it is VERY early for forming opinions about how it stacks up against other albums, I think I can say that I like it better than D/T, and I like D/T considerably.

[KevShmev]

My only point was this - what if the new album REALLY IS the best one since i&w? Hope you understand this point from logic

That would be awesome, but that has nothing to do with my point, which is why it was bizarre that you directed your original thought with regards to that at me.

[KevShmev]

Yeah, I get what Kev is saying as well and think it makes sense.  If you make a claim that bold, a lot are going to dismiss it out of hand, and it can actually hurt opinions going into the album in some cases.

Thank you. 

[Glasser]

My only point was this - what if the new album REALLY IS the best one since i&w? Hope you understand this point from logic

Being how long ago I&W came out and it’s overall impact on prog metal it’s simply not fair to compare any other albums to it. Those songs were written so long ago and it pioneered the genre 100%, no debating that. Fast forward 30 years and these guys are still relevant and kicking ass. I also love DoT a lot but to me the new album is worlds ahead of it on all fronts. Seeing DT evolve from day one this could be considered a nod to where they came from but more importantly it shows these guys are far from done!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Kyo,

With all due respect, the minute you said, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," in your review, you lost me.  It would be like David Gilmour releasing a new album and a reviewer saying at the start, "This might be the best album he has been a part of since The Dark Side of the Moon!"  Throwing out stuff like that simply puts unrealistic expectations in the heads of those who have not heard the album yet.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel there are ways to write a glowingly positive review without feeling the need for that kind of hyperbole.

It's a personal view and it's certainly not hyperbole from my point of view. Everyone's top albums will be different. For me, Awake has always been mostly weak and FII has been very uneven. That leaves SfaM and Six Degrees as the main towering classics from the post-I&W years. I don't think any of the later Portnoy albums are great. My personal top 5 would probably be I&W, SfaM, 6DOIT, ADToE and (yes!) The Astonishing. Compared to these, the new album is significantly more focused and more fun than TA. It is significantly fresher and better sounding than ADToE. It is significantly more focused than 6DOIT and while it's a close call with SfaM, I prefer the new one because - again - it is more focused (musically, where SfaM sometimes sacrifices that for conceptual reasons) and the lack of sappy ballads makes it more fun overall. So no hyperbole at all needed to say that yes, I do like this album better than my personal favorites, with I&W being the lone exception (an album that I consider damn near perfect and almost impossible to top anyway). Hence, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words" is ultimately just a matter-of-fact realization from my point of view. You may not agree, but you may also completely disagree with me about Awake or ToT being weak albums where the new one being better in my opinion is just not much of a feat. That's just how it goes.

Let me explain it a little better: it is not about any one person's of their work; it is about knowing the favorites of the fanbase and keeping expectations realistic.  To know the DT fan base is to know that (post-I&W) a record like Scenes from a Memory is wildly popular, and Awake and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are widely loved as well.  So, again, saying, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," is setting a lot of fans up for disappointment if your opinion is not shared by them right away, and like it or not, expectations do often subconsciously affect how fans react to new music.  That is all I am saying. 

Kyo,

With all due respect, the minute you said, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," in your review, you lost me.  It would be like David Gilmour releasing a new album and a reviewer saying at the start, "This might be the best album he has been a part of since The Dark Side of the Moon!"  Throwing out stuff like that simply puts unrealistic expectations in the heads of those who have not heard the album yet.  Maybe it's just me, but I feel there are ways to write a glowingly positive review without feeling the need for that kind of hyperbole.

I don't think he is being hyperbolic. As we discussed on another thread, and has he just pointed out, he (and many others) finds both Awake and FII to be inconsistent and sorta meh (as do I). He doesn't think that SFAM or SDOIT are untouchable, and neither do I. So it's entirely realistic that he and many other fans could think DT15 is the best album since I&W. I think ADTOE is a better and more consistent than SDOIT and maybe even SFAM. I also enjoy DoT more than those two...so why can't DT15 be like that too?

Of course it can, but as I explained above, this is not about what album I like or you like or anybody likes.  It is about knowing the fanbase and not setting unrealistic expectations.  The fanbase, generally speaking, thinks very highly as a whole of Awake, Scenes from a Memory and Six Degrees (which I demonstrated quite clearly the other day), so saying the new album is better than all three is setting a very high bar and setting fans up for disappointment if it fails to reach that bar.

I don't think a self selecting 'survey' on 2 random sites is a clear demonstration by any means. And even if it is, why does that matter to Kyo's review? He legitimately thinks DT15 is their best work since I&W. That is all that matters. I happen to agree with him that I&W is the best, and that a MM era album is second best-- hey, DT15 could be my second favorite in 2 weeks. I find that view to be totally plausible for those of us who think Awake is overrated and SFAM and SDOIT are not untouchable (so maybe they are also overrated!). And as you can see just by this thread there is disagreement about how good at least one of those records is relative to the catalogue. If this forum is biased and unrepresentative, why isn't the other site? We have no idea who voted or how many times. Anyway, the point of disagreement on the other forum was slightly more nuanced and not exactly the same as what we are discussing here.

You're probably right that most fans who have been listening for a while think that those 4 albums are the best. That seems like a realistic view, though it wouldn't shock me if the last 4 albums are far more popular with the fanbase than you think. I don't believe there is anything like such an overwhelming consensus that precludes a reviewer from holding DT15 in such high esteem. And even if it is, and this forum is unrepresentative, his DT15 comment shouldn't raise any eyebrows here, where you can clearly see there is quite a variety of opinion about the strength of the 1994-2002 output.

[bosk1]

^And precisely zero of that is relevant to what Kev posted.  Again, it isn't a matter of what one prefers or likes.  It isn't a mater of taste.
 It's a matter of recognizing I&W's status and the band's history.  I&W has legendary status that no other album in their history can touch.  As Glasser pointed out, it virtually pioneered a subgenre.  It was influential in ways that something this late in their career almost can't achieve.  So while everything you are saying is all well and good, it has nothing to do with what Kev said.

[LKap13]

Even besides the point, I'll bet kyo considers sfam and sdoit etc to be elite albums...

There seems to be some upset about calling this album the best since i&w. I personally looked at that statement as saying "this is an exceptional album", which makes my excitement grow not diminish

[KevShmev]

^And precisely zero of that is relevant to what Kev posted.  Again, it isn't a matter of what one prefers or likes.  It isn't a mater of taste.
 It's a matter of recognizing I&W's status and the band's history.  I&W has legendary status that no other album in their history can touch.  As Glasser pointed out, it virtually pioneered a subgenre.  It was influential in ways that something this late in their career almost can't achieve.  So while everything you are saying is all well and good, it has nothing to do with what Kev said.

Yes, yes, thank you!  I think some are getting too wrapped up in "But this is what I like!!" and completely missing my point, and I do not have the energy to explain it any more, so thank you for doing so for me. 

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

^And precisely zero of that is relevant to what Kev posted.  Again, it isn't a matter of what one prefers or likes.  It isn't a mater of taste.
 It's a matter of recognizing I&W's status and the band's history.  I&W has legendary status that no other album in their history can touch.  As Glasser pointed out, it virtually pioneered a subgenre.  It was influential in ways that something this late in their career almost can't achieve.  So while everything you are saying is all well and good, it has nothing to do with what Kev said.

I don't think he was saying DT15 was better than I&W. I think he said I&W would never be surpassed and as you point out, it has a legendary status that is widely regarded as defining the genre. I agree that is a consensus amongst fans and non-fans alike. He said it was better than 3 later albums that many think aren't anywhere near as good as I&W. No one can say the same about any of the 3 albums Kyo is saying DT15 is better than: Awake, SFAM, SDOIT. Those albums broke no ground and do not have the same status as I&W, or anything even remotely close.

So it is relevant to Kev's post. He appears to believe that there is such an overwhelming consensus amongst the fan base that this group of 3 albums is so widely hailed DT15 can't realistically live up to such high praise. I don't agree at all, neither does Kyo apparently, and a bunch of other fans don't either, so it is perfectly achievable to them. An I&W comparison would be a totally different story.

[IDontNotDoThings]

"Best album since I&W" still implies I&W is better, no? I&W being a landmark album wasn't in question. Awake/SFAM/SDOIT would be the relevant ones here. (Edit: TBW beat me to this point )

In any case, I don't think it's a review's responsibility to echo the opinions of the fanbase. It's one perspective, & if you don't think you'll agree with it when the album comes out, sure, but it's still insight regardless. Take it or leave it.

[LKap13]

To be fair, if this album is better than sfam then it's gonna be a monumental achievement

[KevShmev]

^And precisely zero of that is relevant to what Kev posted.  Again, it isn't a matter of what one prefers or likes.  It isn't a mater of taste.
 It's a matter of recognizing I&W's status and the band's history.  I&W has legendary status that no other album in their history can touch.  As Glasser pointed out, it virtually pioneered a subgenre.  It was influential in ways that something this late in their career almost can't achieve.  So while everything you are saying is all well and good, it has nothing to do with what Kev said.

I don't think he was saying DT15 was better than I&W. I think he said I&W would never be surpassed and as you point out, it has a legendary status that is widely regarded as defining the genre. I agree that is a consensus amongst fans and non-fans alike. He said it was better than 3 later albums that many think aren't anywhere near as good as I&W. No one can say the same about any of the 3 albums Kyo is saying DT15 is better than: Awake, SFAM, SDOIT. Those albums broke no ground and do not have the same status as I&W, or anything even remotely close.

So it is relevant to Kev's post. He appears to believe that there is such an overwhelming consensus amongst the fan base that this group of 3 albums is so widely hailed DT15 can't realistically live up to such high praise. I don't agree at all, neither does Kyo apparently, and a bunch of other fans don't either, so it is perfectly achievable to them. An I&W comparison would be a totally different story.

That is not what I said.  Please stop misrepresenting what I said.   

[LKap13]

"Best album since I&W" still implies I&W is better, no? I&W being a landmark album wasn't in question. Awake/SFAM/SDOIT would be the relevant ones here. (Edit: TBW beat me to this point )

In any case, I don't think it's a review's responsibility to echo the opinions of the fanbase. It's one perspective, & if you don't think you'll agree with it when the album comes out, sure, but it's still insight regardless. Take it or leave it.

I agree with this perspective. The ONE caveat being that it's prob too EARLY to say it's better than all albums since iw

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

"Best album since I&W" still implies I&W is better, no? I&W being a landmark album wasn't in question. Awake/SFAM/SDOIT would be the relevant ones here. (Edit: TBW beat me to this point )

In any case, I don't think it's a review's responsibility to echo the opinions of the fanbase. It's one perspective, & if you don't think you'll agree with it when the album comes out, sure, but it's still insight regardless. Take it or leave it.

That is exactly right, and he even (unnecessarily, since it is clear already)) clarified in a later post that I&W would never be topped and is 'damn near perfect' so I am not sure why some are even arguing something he never said.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Kev - that is nearly exactly what you are saying. You are saying, among other things, that these 3 albums (I&W NOT included) are so wildly popular and loved amongst the fanbase that he shouldn't state his opinion that DT15 is better because the fanbase (which allegedly holds this consensus view) will be disappointed when DT15 can't meet the expectations he set. Your words are below if you need to be reminded.


"Let me explain it a little better: it is not about any one person's of their work; it is about knowing the favorites of the fanbase and keeping expectations realistic.  To know the DT fan base is to know that (post-I&W) a record like Scenes from a Memory is wildly popular, and Awake and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are widely loved as well.  So, again, saying, "It may well be the best one since Images and Words," is setting a lot of fans up for disappointment if your opinion is not shared by them right away, and like it or not, expectations do often subconsciously affect how fans react to new music"

[KevShmev]

You said:

"He appears to believe that there is such an overwhelming consensus amongst the fan base that this group of 3 albums is so widely hailed DT15 can't realistically live up to such high praise."

Which is inaccurate.  I will repeat:

That is not what I said.  Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

K?  Thanks.

[TAC]

So.....

Handles up or down when loading the dishwasher?

Bring the carriage to the corral or leave it where you parked?

[Glasser]

This is completely Hypothetical: if I was introduced to DT today being a prog metal fan already and I was handed their entire studio discog I would not say I&W is their best album technically as they have evolved so much since. It all comes down to preferred taste, bottom line. But that’s only my point of view.

[KevShmev]

This is completely Hypothetical: if I was introduced to DT today being a prog metal fan already and I was handed their entire studio discog I would not say I&W is their best album technically as they have evolved so much since. It all comes down to preferred taste, bottom line. But that’s only my point of view.

Well, no, I wouldn't say either, not when their best album is quite clearly When Dream and Day Unite, objectively speaking.

[LKap13]

Would you go with train of thought then?

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

You said:

"He appears to believe that there is such an overwhelming consensus amongst the fan base that this group of 3 albums is so widely hailed DT15 can't realistically live up to such high praise."

Which is inaccurate.  I will repeat:

That is not what I said.  Please stop misrepresenting what I said.

K?  Thanks.

Yes. and that is nearly exactly what you said, except in different wording. I paraphrased what you said. If you meant something different then you could have said something else but there is no principally or materially different reading of those two things. No misrepresentation occurred.