DT15: A View From The Top Of The World (Timeline for DT15)

[darkshade]

BC&SL is the last classic DT album, though Octavarium was the end of the classic era of the band for me.
On SC and BC&SL, the band were still trying to expand the core DT sound, even if this is when the band started sounding a little formulaic at times.
Every album since has been an attempt at reaching former glories with mixed results.

SFAM is the last classic album for me and the band then went consistently downhill from there until the inclusion of Mangini gave them a bit of a shot in the arm, not to the point of any of the Mangini era albums being classics, just better than the period from SDOIT to BC&SL era where each album was worse than the last.  I don’t dislike any of those albums, they’re just my least favourite.

Put it this way, I don’t think we’ll be getting any more tours where they play any post SFAM album in full every night other than if they’re playing their latest album in full on the tour for that album.  DT’s two classic albums are I&W and SFAM, that’s why they did the whole anniversary tour for them.  Can’t see them doing that again.

They're the band's two most popular albums, and the two albums casual fans are most likely to be familiar with, but that doesn't mean the classic era ended with Scenes, if anything, it was merely the middle of the book. They kept going and expanding their core sound, something they had been doing throughout the 90s, which is why I said Octavarium was the end, though SC and BC&SL still saw the band expanding their sound, but also starting to fall back on sounds and styles that worked before, which continues to this day. Mangini may have given the band a shot in the arm, but they haven't expanded their core sound since Portnoy left.

It's arguable that Train of Thought is actually more popular than Scenes, both for being controversial at the time of its release, and being their heaviest album. I also think Scenes didn't sell as well as follow up albums, but I could be wrong there, it's just SFAM gained a reputation as a prog classic. Scenes gets more accolade for many reasons, and IaW is their most commercially successful album, but to say they went downhill after Scenes is highly subjective. I don't hear the decline until after Octavarium. There is a divide in eras between Octavarium and Systematic Chaos, though it's a gray divide with the same lineup as the previous 4 albums.

Plus, how can Scenes be the end of the classic era, when '89-'99  gave us two other DT albums (WDaDU and FII) that most fans consistently rank as their least favorite albums?

[Dream Team]

Comparing Scenes to Train of Thought, that’s just . . . wow . .

Adding stupid metalcore and nu-metal influences and gruffer vocals isn’t really expanding the sound to me, just dumbing it down. Thank goodness for this second chapter with Mangini.

[Kotowboy]

I can 100% see them playing Octavarium in full .

[Max Kuehnau]

I can 100% see them playing Octavarium in full .

Please. No.

[Dedalus]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

[Kotowboy]

I can 100% see them playing Octavarium in full .

Please. No.

Please. Yes.

[LKap13]

Let me ask this to those who've heard the album -- is The Alien the best/one of the best songs on the album? I'm really loving the alien so if it's not one of the best of the album then we're definitely in for a treat

[Glasser]

Let me ask this to those who've heard the album -- is The Alien the best/one of the best songs on the album? I'm really loving the alien so if it's not one of the best of the album then we're definitely in for a treat

You’re in for a treat. I love The Alien but it’s not the highlight of the album nor does it represent how amazing the rest is. Perfect single to wet the appetite.

[LKap13]

Awesome! You might have mentioned this before but how does the production of the album compare to that of d/t? Alien sounds like an improvement

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Amen. The Mangini-era, the Astonishing aside, which caused me great anguish, has been one of the best things to happen to this band's output.

Also, I don't know why BCSL would be the end of the alleged classic DT era. Their albums are different enough that one could reasonably say there is no classic era. Seems like an arbitrary point unless MP is somehow required to define the classic era.

[darkshade]

Comparing Scenes to Train of Thought, that’s just . . . wow . .

Adding stupid metalcore and nu-metal influences and gruffer vocals isn’t really expanding the sound to me, just dumbing it down. Thank goodness for this second chapter with Mangini.

I never compared the two albums together musically. I compared their popularity, particularly when they were first released.
Also, stupid to you is great to others. I don't listen to metalcore but I don't hear metalcore in ToT. Nu metal yes, Metallica, thrash, yes.

It is expansion, doesn't mean you will like it. If anything, DoT was DT dumbing down their music, minus a song or two. Possibly the band's safest album.

[darkshade]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Well, I said Octavarium was the end of the classic DT era, and that BC&SL was the last classic album.

You guys graduate from The Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good? 

[Dedalus]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Well, I said Octavarium was the end of the classic DT era, and that BC&SL was the last classic album.

You guys graduate from The Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good? 

So the classic period ended but did they continue to produce classic albums? 

Whatever you want.
I don't give a shit.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I dont know what anyone is hearing in Octavarium to make himself think THAT album marks the end of any era. My opinion, is that Octavarium marks the beginning of a descent that didn't reverse course until 2011. As I look at the Octavarium track list, I can't see what anyone thinks is so great about that album.

[Trav86]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Well, I said Octavarium was the end of the classic DT era, and that BC&SL was the last classic album.

You guys graduate from The Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good? 

That explanation didn’t help your case! 

[darkshade]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Amen. The Mangini-era, the Astonishing aside, which caused me great anguish, has been one of the best things to happen to this band's output.

Also, I don't know why BCSL would be the end of the alleged classic DT era. Their albums are different enough that one could reasonably say there is no classic era. Seems like an arbitrary point unless MP is somehow required to define the classic era.

To me, the classic era of WDaDU-Octavarium is a band who did put out a different album every time, where there was little regard for genre. DT was a fusion band, not just a progressive metal band. They fused metal, with progressive rock, a touch of jazz, with some classical influence, and blended it in such a way that it was both complex and catchy/memorable, something most bands struggle to do consistently. DT did it for about 8 albums straight. ToT was a sort of departure from this, but only that they wanted to make a heavier album than they had up til that point, but the concept was still the same. Octavarium had songs that were more straightforward like TALW or IWBY but weren't still focused on "this is the [insert genre] song" and the other songs continued the DT tradition described above.

Enter Systematic Chaos. Now this album did some things similar to Octavarium (lifting direct influences from other bands on certain tracks) but this time, it was all about balls and chunk, and trying to appeal to the broader metal audience (whereas ToT was just a desire to make a heavier album) while making sure the music still appealed to their core fan base. BC&SL continued this trend to an extent, but I think it was a better album, since to me SC loses momentum after TDEN, and they were less concerned about the balls and chunk overall, bringing back lighter playing and proggier compositions, particularly on the back half of the album.

Since then, the albums have been either an attempt at former glories, or doing something so outside the box for the band it fell short of even the biggest Mangini-era fans liking it (The Astonishing) and between all 4 albums with MM, while the production is different on each album, the core sound of the band is the same. There is little to no progression in their general sound since SC, other than MM replacing MP before ADTOE. DoT could have been written in 2011, and ADTOE could have been written in 2018. Minus lineup changes, I can't say SDoIT or ToT could have been written in 1992. I don't even think Octavarium (the song) could have been written in the 90s. They had to grow and evolve to be able to, or want to, write the music on those albums.

[darkshade]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Well, I said Octavarium was the end of the classic DT era, and that BC&SL was the last classic album.

You guys graduate from The Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good? 

That explanation didn’t help your case! 

Because SC broke the chain if you will, IMO, and BC&SL was the last gasp of a band that doesn't exist anymore, and had high points comparable to high points in their first 8 albums.

[Trav86]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Amen. The Mangini-era, the Astonishing aside, which caused me great anguish, has been one of the best things to happen to this band's output.

Also, I don't know why BCSL would be the end of the alleged classic DT era. Their albums are different enough that one could reasonably say there is no classic era. Seems like an arbitrary point unless MP is somehow required to define the classic era.

To me, the classic era of WDaDU-Octavarium is a band who did put out a different album every time, where there was little regard for genre. DT was a fusion band, not just a progressive metal band. They fused metal, with progressive rock, a touch of jazz, with some classical influence, and blended it in such a way that it was both complex and catchy/memorable, something most bands struggle to do consistently. DT did it for about 8 albums straight. ToT was a sort of departure from this, but only that they wanted to make a heavier album than they had up til that point, but the concept was still the same. Octavarium had songs that were more straightforward like TALW or IWBY but weren't still focused on "this is the [insert genre] song" and the other songs continued the DT tradition described above.

Enter Systematic Chaos. Now this album did some things similar to Octavarium (lifting direct influences from other bands on certain tracks) but this time, it was all about balls and chunk, and trying to appeal to the broader metal audience (whereas ToT was just a desire to make a heavier album) while making sure the music still appealed to their core fan base. BC&SL continued this trend to an extent, but I think it was a better album, since to me SC loses momentum after TDEN, and they were less concerned about the balls and chunk overall, bringing back lighter playing and proggier compositions, particularly on the back half of the album.

Since then, the albums have been either an attempt at former glories, or doing something so outside the box for the band it fell short of even the biggest Mangini-era fans liking it (The Astonishing) and between all 4 albums with MM, while the production is different on each album, the core sound of the band is the same. There is little to no progression in their general sound since SC, other than MM replacing MP before ADTOE. DoT could have been written in 2011, and ADTOE could have been written in 2018. Minus lineup changes, I can't say SDoIT or ToT could have been written in 1992. I don't even think Octavarium (the song) could have been written in the 90s. They had to grow and evolve to be able to, or want to, write the music on those albums.

I agree with all of this. The one thing I would add is that while the sound of the band hasn’t really altered or progressed, it has sorta “streamlined”. Cut out a lot of the busy sections that were still there in ADTOE. They’ve learned to do more in less amount of time. If you can call that a progression.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Amen. The Mangini-era, the Astonishing aside, which caused me great anguish, has been one of the best things to happen to this band's output.

Also, I don't know why BCSL would be the end of the alleged classic DT era. Their albums are different enough that one could reasonably say there is no classic era. Seems like an arbitrary point unless MP is somehow required to define the classic era.

To me, the classic era of WDaDU-Octavarium is a band who did put out a different album every time, where there was little regard for genre. DT was a fusion band, not just a progressive metal band. They fused metal, with progressive rock, a touch of jazz, with some classical influence, and blended it in such a way that it was both complex and catchy/memorable, something most bands struggle to do consistently. DT did it for about 8 albums straight. ToT was a sort of departure from this, but only that they wanted to make a heavier album than they had up til that point, but the concept was still the same. Octavarium had songs that were more straightforward like TALW or IWBY but weren't still focused on "this is the [insert genre] song" and the other songs continued the DT tradition described above. Octavarium is both the end of the classic era, but sort of the beginning of the modern era, because:

Enter Systematic Chaos. Now this album did some things similar to Octavarium (lifting direct influences from other bands on certain tracks) but this time, it was all about balls and chunk, and trying to appeal to the broader metal audience (whereas ToT was just a desire to make a heavier album) while making sure the music still appealed to their core fan base. BC&SL continued this trend to an extent, but I think it was a better album, since to me SC loses momentum after TDEN, and they were less concerned about the balls and chunk overall, bringing back lighter playing and proggier compositions, particularly on the back half of the album.

Since then, the albums have been either an attempt at former glories, or doing something so outside the box for the band it fell short of even the biggest Mangini-era fans liking it (The Astonishing) and between all 4 albums with MM, while the production is different on each album, the core sound of the band is the same. There is little to no progression in their general sound since SC, other than MM replacing MP before ADTOE. DoT could have been written in 2011, and ADTOE could have been written in 2018. Minus lineup changes, I can't say SDoIT or ToT could have been written in 1992. I don't even think Octavarium (the song) could have been written in the 90s. They had to grow and evolve to be able to, or want to, write the music on those albums.

Where are you hearing the fusion, jazz or classical influence on Octavarium? And one could easily say the 2 more straight forward songs you mention are easily described as the "pop genre" songs or the U2 songs. And furthermore, now that I am looking at the track list, The Root of All Evil and These Walls are more stripped down, simpler songs in DT's catalog.  I think simplicity probably defines this album best, and I can't find any of the influences you mentioned. Even the title track has a huge amount of time up front in which there is basically nothing going on.

I think the band does sound a lot different since SC. Granted, it doesn't sound like it's a departure in style, but it sounds like a juiced up version of DT with a very enhanced drum department. That's a big difference. We will see what happens with DT15, but even in listening to the Alien, where JP sounds like he is recycling riffs, throwing in a drummer like MM totally changes the feel.

 

[Trav86]

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

[darkshade]

I haven't heard The Alien, so I cannot comment on that. For all I know, based on what I've read, The Alien cancels out everything I said about the Maginin era (though I have my doubts)

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

This. Octavarium was less so, but there was still the fusion going on, and of course it was on the song Octavarium, that song is the exclamation point of their first 8 albums.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient. I agree DoT doesn't do anything new, but when you consider the reaction to TA, it makes sense why that album was the way it was.

DT12 has a classical element in the title track...more so than Octavarium.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

[Mosh]

Octavarium definitely felt like the band were closing the door on an era. They finished their record contract and were ready to move to roadrunner and did an anniversary retrospective tour to support the album (with a documentary accompanying the dvd). They also ended a few traditions. The whole end of album looping to the next album thing ended with Octavarium and SC/BCSL didn’t have any musical or lyrical theme or concept to tie the songs together (everything between Scenes and Octavarium felt tied to a grander vision). Those two albums also had a mix of highly technical prog and metal that set them apart from the albums before. They also abandoned evening with tours after Octavarium. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if MP sees that period in retrospect as a decline that led to him burning out and leaving the band.

[TAC]

Octavarium definitely felt like the band were closing the door on an era. They finished their record contract and were ready to move to roadrunner and did an anniversary retrospective tour to support the album (with a documentary accompanying the dvd). They also ended a few traditions. The whole end of album looping to the next album thing ended with Octavarium and SC/BCSL didn’t have any musical or lyrical theme or concept to tie the songs together (everything between Scenes and Octavarium felt tied to a grander vision). Those two albums also had a mix of highly technical prog and metal that set them apart from the albums before. They also abandoned evening with tours after Octavarium. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if MP sees that period in retrospect as a decline that led to him burning out and leaving the band.

I agree. Score basically turned out the light on DT's Classic Era.

While I love SC and I consider TBOT and TCOT as two of their best songs, it really seemed like they weren't really playing for anything for those two albums.


I would refer to the Mangini Era as the Modern Era of DT.

[darkshade]

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient. I agree DoT doesn't do anything new, but when you consider the reaction to TA, it makes sense why that album was the way it was.

DT12 has a classical element in the title track...more so than Octavarium.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

Difference is that section in IT is "the classical section" and is not a melting pot song.

IT:
Here's the symphonic intro
Here's the heavy rock / metal verses and chorus
Here's the ambient section
Here's the classical section
Woop, we're back to the rock almost metal stuff again.
Here's the guitar and keyboard solo trade off section our fans claim we got rid of when MM joined.
Here's the symphonic outro
Just for shits, here's a 'hidden' track that is the best thing on DT12

In fact, I think Viper King is the most interesting song on DoT, isn't concerned with genre or appeal to fan base, and it's a bonus track. Modern DT play things too safe.

[LKap13]

Awesome! You might have mentioned this before but how does the production of the album compare to that of d/t? Alien sounds like an improvement

Bump

[darkshade]

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient.

What style of music is that? Disney is not a genre of music.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

It's there. If you're willing to start a thread about it, I'll list them.

[Mosh]

It’s hard to delineate the Mangini era of DT. They shifted in some different directions after Portnoy left, but they have had some twists too. DT12 was quite different from ADTOE and felt like the band was making the statement that this would be the start of a new period for them. But then The Astonishing throws everything out the window. D/T seemed to go back to the DT12 style of things, who knows how the new album will fit. With the Rock operas, self titled albums, and general lack of through lines within the albums it’s hard to characterize what the current DT is. Even though we’ve had this lineup for 10 years now, much longer than the stretch from Scenes to Octavarium.

These are not complaints btw.

[darkshade]

It’s hard to delineate the Mangini era of DT. They shifted in some different directions after Portnoy left, but they have had some twists too. DT12 was quite different from ADTOE and felt like the band was making the statement that this would be the start of a new period for them. But then The Astonishing throws everything out the window. D/T seemed to go back to the DT12 style of things, who knows how the new album will fit. With the Rock operas, self titled albums, and general lack of through lines within the albums it’s hard to characterize what the current DT is. Even though we’ve had this lineup for 10 years now, much longer than the stretch from Scenes to Octavarium.

These are not complaints btw.

To me, the defining sound of modern DT is the opening note/chord of Dystopian Overture from The Astonishing. It encapsulates what DT is and sounds like with Mangini. Then throw in super processed vocals from JLB.

[gzarruk]

If BCSL is the end of "classic DT era" so I'm glad that "classic DT era" is over. 

Indeed

I can 100% see them playing Octavarium in full .

Please. No.

Please. Yes.

Please. No. x2

Seriously, I hope they never do the X album in full anniversary thing again.

...I also don't want it to be OVM either which brings me to...

I dont know what anyone is hearing in Octavarium to make himself think THAT album marks the end of any era. My opinion, is that Octavarium marks the beginning of a descent that didn't reverse course until 2011. As I look at the Octavarium track list, I can't see what anyone thinks is so great about that album.

This.

I'd say that the band reached their peak with SFAM and SDOIT and then they started their decline with TOT and kept going downhill, with BC&SL being the worst of the bunch. To be fair, I do enjoy all of these albums, and I'd take them over most of other band's stuff any day, but it does feel to me like a clear decline in their compositional approach, like they weren't too sure what kind of music they wanted to make.

ADTOE was the much needed "return to form" album, and the MM era hasn't disappointed me at all, except for maybe a couple production/sound choices.

[TAC]

It’s hard to delineate the Mangini era of DT. They shifted in some different directions after Portnoy left, but they have had some twists too. DT12 was quite different from ADTOE and felt like the band was making the statement that this would be the start of a new period for them. But then The Astonishing throws everything out the window. D/T seemed to go back to the DT12 style of things, who knows how the new album will fit. With the Rock operas, self titled albums, and general lack of through lines within the albums it’s hard to characterize what the current DT is. Even though we’ve had this lineup for 10 years now, much longer than the stretch from Scenes to Octavarium.

These are not complaints btw.

Maybe it's similar in the way that each DT album from WDADU through 6 D's is different.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think he means there was a melting pot of styles across the first eight albums. Not every album had a mix of styles (jazz, classical, etc.).

Well, the Astonishing certainly throws into the pot a new musical ingredient.

What style of music is that? Disney is not a genre of music.

I've never heard any jazz influence in DT...not a good or a bad thing, but I just don't think it's there.

It's there. If you're willing to start a thread about it, I'll list them.

I don't think there is going to be anything there to justify a new thread. Generally you need the blues, swing, and improvisation to have jazz. Maybe MP improvised his drum parts or JR improvised his keyboard solos on the spot?

I do want to tie this into DT15 to avoid the ire of the mods for going way off topic lol. I think the Mangini era is as much of a mix of styles as the MP era was. Let's say DT15 sounds like DT12 and DoT, which is the safest bet at this point. That still has the same blend all of the other albums (except ToT) do. There will be metal, prog, probably something classical-influenced or cinematic, and probably a more radio friendly track, which Glasser alluded to.

 

[lovethedrake]

Disc 2 of black clouds is awesome though. 

I’d be happy with nightmare to remember, count of Tuscany and all of disc 2.

I definitely think there was a huge shift in direction after six degrees.  We saw it a little on glass prison and then they went all out in it with train of thought.

Personally the all out metal style doesn’t fit the band or labrie as well as a proggier approach so to me the decline started with train of thought.  Rock bottom was ADTOE and it’s been a slow and steady climb since then with every album being better then the last in the Mangini era.  I have big expectations for the new one.

[erwinrafael]

To me, the defining sound of modern DT is the opening note/chord of Dystopian Overture from The Astonishing. It encapsulates what DT is and sounds like with Mangini. Then throw in super processed vocals from JLB.

WOW that opening chord in Dystopian Overture sure captures the sound of At Wit's End, Barstool Warrior, Breaking All Illusions, S2N, Our New World, etc....

[Mosh]

It’s hard to delineate the Mangini era of DT. They shifted in some different directions after Portnoy left, but they have had some twists too. DT12 was quite different from ADTOE and felt like the band was making the statement that this would be the start of a new period for them. But then The Astonishing throws everything out the window. D/T seemed to go back to the DT12 style of things, who knows how the new album will fit. With the Rock operas, self titled albums, and general lack of through lines within the albums it’s hard to characterize what the current DT is. Even though we’ve had this lineup for 10 years now, much longer than the stretch from Scenes to Octavarium.

These are not complaints btw.

Maybe it's similar in the way that each DT album from WDADU through 6 D's is different.

That’s very true and something I didn’t think about before, although ADTOE/DT12 felt similar to the progression from I&W to Awake. I suppose the biggest difference is that the band didn’t have any stable lineups throughout that period.